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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 19:51:16
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I wrote a quick little piece on my site. Please, this is not about the Realms itself, rather the culture found within the Living Forgotten Realms campaign. My title is a bit sensationalist, but not meant to be the arguing point. I'm not interested in debating editions. I'm a 4e fanboy-- just as I was a 2e fanboy, and 3.x fanboy.
http://www.loremaster.org/content.php?135-How-LFR-killed-the-Realms
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Edited by - Matt James on 31 Dec 2010 19:52:14
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 20:20:31
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I agree. I believe the Realms were changed just for that reason. I have been saying that for around 2 years now. Keep fighting the good fight Matt. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 31 Dec 2010 20:21:11 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 20:45:30
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quote:
Matt
... the story doesn't matter. It's about getting to the next encounter and managing resources to dominate combat so that your group can maximize XP and rewards ...
To be fair, I think this is largely not the fault of LFR exactly, but more caused by the convention format itself. [1] People want to min-max their day and see/do everything (and miss nothing) while they're at the Con, so there's a little pressure to keep the pace moving, which ties into [2] the role-playing emphasis, character background, and setting stuff is going to take second place to "hard numbers" and "results" (ie, XP, GP, and loot) ... all that matters is carry-over stats, stuff, and bragging rights. Kick-in-the-door hack-n-slash may not be as rewarding to some players as "soft" role-playing, but it's probably the richest and fastest path toward maximum accumulation.
In short: it doesn't matter which edition or which setting is being played - the playstyle will be the same in every case, the players will rush around and collect their rewards without much regard for the rest of the world (they tend to hardly even notice or remember the setting unless it somehow causes difficulties), the deficiencies in setting and story "fluff" just get written into lengthy character bios after the fact, between LFR sessions. Conversely, when players are all in a private weekly gaming group (as a leisure/hobby activity) they tend to have a lot more time to waste arguing and accomplishing nothing. Plus they're more comfortable with each other as well; I've known many people who were excellent role-players (or at least tried really hard and had fun with it) among friends, yet were too shy to perform in front of strangers.
This is all really just my opinion - I've only watched one LFR table (circa 2003, I think) and noted the drill-sergeant pace and heavy powergaming style - this one observation is what fuels my entire argument, so I'm willing to accept that the one table I witnessed is not representative of LFR in general. Though I suspect it's not far from the truth. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Dec 2010 20:52:11 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 04:25:53
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I agree with you that many of the adventures "seem" very much geared in this fashion of quick killz, grab lootz, and level up as fast as possible. Though I can't comment 1st hand, not being a RPGA member, I'd imagine a Gen Con style LFR where you have very little time for actual in-depth role-playing. I also feel that this problem, if it can be called that, is more derived of adventure writing as much as inadequate time management and not the 4E system itself. Also, could be in part the DM isn't doing a good enough job on the Narritive (I speak from speculation only, so no offense to anyone DM'ing these things).
I'm stabbing at adventure writing because from many, many reviews I've seen about even the published adventures for 4E have been considered very sub-par. There's little creativity on part of the plot, the antagonist are very 2-dimensional, and often encounters are thrown at the PCs with little rhyme or reason of said monsters other than "showcasing" their new stats.
I think if LFR and the general appeal of 4E is to improve, then published adventures need to be given a swift kick in the butt and be more on-par with those of Pathfinder. I really hate saying that because I've put so much time, money, and heart into 4E and it's still my perferred system of choice but Paizo's Pathfinder adventures are really creative and intriguing. They put plot and NPC creation first, making the world seem more alive while combat and skill challenges are on the back burner. There are sub-plots, side quests, and social maneuverings that WotC adventures put little stock in and require the DM to manually pull these ideas from their own imagination. Generally, when I'm doing my own thing in a specific setting this is ideal, but when I buy an actual adventure, I like to have things laid out for me on a plate, with some A1 for my steak.
So I totally understand what Matt is saying, even though I've yet to do a LFR game but it's sad none the less to see the Realms used in such a care-free fashion with little regard to what actually makes it THE Realms. (I think I just sounded like some old-guard Gognard there for a sec...wierd )
PS- Maybe a LFR game could be put back on track with a group of min/maxers if they faced something truely terrifying or lured into a trap that they can't "roll" out of?? At least it'd be funny to see all their encounter/Daily/and magical item powers be expended with futility   !!!
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 05:18:48
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| It is absolutely the format. You have to try and fit adventures into time slots. There is nothing wrong with this format, I just feel the Realms were a poor venue for it. There is no divorcing the format from the organization that runs it. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 05:28:40
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quote:
Diffan
... many, many reviews I've seen about even the published adventures for 4E have been considered very sub-par. There's little creativity on part of the plot, the antagonist are very 2-dimensional, and often encounters are thrown at the PCs with little rhyme or reason of said monsters other than "showcasing" their new stats.
Do you have examples?
I haven't yet purchased any standalone 4E adventures; I still have mountains of pre-4E material which can be adapted without much difficulty. So the only 4E adventures I've actually seen are those printed in the 4E sourcebooks. It's true enough that the adventures in the core books use a "generic" D&D setting, though that's not at all an issue with the adventures published in the FR sourcebooks. The antagonists (not always NPCs or monsters, sometimes just skill challenges, etc) seem adequately described for use within these short adventures, it's not like they all need have a novel-length bio, they're there to be defeated by the heroic PCs, and they're designed to present a range of challenge levels. The monster-showcase problem doesn't seem too noxious to me, largely because (most of) the monster encounters themselves are set up in an intelligent plug-n-play manner that doesn't require much in-depth explanation for their existence. This sort of stuff is great for beginner DMs, while experienced DMs can (and should) put the extra effort into "fitting things together". Just my opinions; lol, it seems like the things you're criticizing about 4E happen to be the same things I think have been greatly improved. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 05:55:09
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I'm not talking about stand-alone adventures. I have been rather pleased with them. My comments about LFR were purely for LFR and not necessarily about the adventures that have been written.
Edit: Yes, I know you weren't directly talking to me, Arik :p
*steers the boat back on course* |
Edited by - Matt James on 01 Jan 2011 05:55:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 07:21:02
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Well, given that LFR/Convention adventures use a time intensive format - and yes, to some degree they do need to share a simplified common setting and showcase some kewl new stuffs - I'm not entirely sure I understand your perspective, Matt. Are you saying that the Realms is ill-suited for (and ill-served by) these sorts of adventures? If so, and if that's a problem, then how can it be fixed?
Looking back at ye olde, ancient, RPGA modules (especially the B, C, D, R, and RPGA Series), I see that they tend to be very setting generic indeed. Arguably this may be because many of them were published when Greyhawk existed as the only official setting, so such details were academic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 15:02:37
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| That's a big part of the problem, yes. I don't feel the Forgotten Realms should have been used for the living campaign. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 15:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Do you have examples?
Not readily available at the moment. I remember playing through a few mods and thinking "wow, why is this monster in here?" Yes, an experienced DM should be able to fit any sort of RP into the monsters or give reasons for their placement IF it's a small side-track quest like they give out on DDi or a campaign done through the DM, but not a fully published adventure.
The problem with these Living Campaigns is time restraints (as Matt has stated), but the question is how to make it less "hack'n'slash" and put some Realmsian though into the campaign. I'd for one say budget for a great time slot. OR maybe tone down the amount of combat your expecting to do for this style of play. If the average LFR adventure takes 4-5 hours with 4 combat/skill challenge encounters, maybe extend the time to 6-7 hours. That's a long time gaming at once time. But why can't it be done over two days?
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 16:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
That's a big part of the problem, yes. I don't feel the Forgotten Realms should have been used for the living campaign.
Wholeheartedly agree Matt, it was Greyhawks deathknell and its a growing concern it will be FR's as well.
As a side note regarding 4E published adventures, how do you all feel they stack up to the Pathfinder Adventure Paths? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 16:43:28
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While I'm not keen on how LFR is played, I don't see this as killing the Forgotten Realms. Greyhawk's death knell to me seemd to be the fact that they decided to make it the "core" world in 3e/v3.5 with NO campaign support. Everything published was supposed to be based in Oerth yet there seemed to be little support for the Setting such as Oerth Maps, NPCs (not just the ones listed in the Epic book), and everything that makes Oerth/Greyhawk special.
In addition, they had very little in the way of a published novel line. I looked for novels, but all I could find was The Temple of Elemental Evil novel and Descent into the Depths of the Earth. As good a read they were, it was still out paced by the Forgotten Realms line.
The Forgotten Realms, while loosing steam due to the way in which 4E runs it's campaign settings, seems to be still doing quite well. With two new video games set for 2011, another sourcebook for Neverwinter, AND a list of novels, I think it appears to be thriving.
Not to mention that there seeem to be more DDI articles invovling the Realms than Darksun and Eberron. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 08:03:40
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Having played some LFR as well as lots of Living City(2E) and Living Greyhawk (3E & 3.5), I can tell you that the problem that Matt is talking about has existed in all three campaigns. In both LC and LG, the problem was probably even worse that LFR,because the campaign designers were still learning and the authors orten didn't have the best guidlines to follow.
I'm not sure what causes the uber-competivness in the Living campaigns, but it has existed since the start. And everytime the RPGA makes a change in the campaign rules to try and eliminate some of the combat munchkiness and instill a little role-playing into the campaign, the magority of Living Players imediatly start looking for ways around the restrictions and we're soon back to combat-happy, XP-grabbing, cert-collecting foolishness.
I don't think it's the people who are the problem. In my area (mid-Michigan) many of the Living Campaign players who focus strictly on kill the monsters and take the certs are actually excellent role-players when they are at their home games or even playing pick-up games at cons.
I can only guess what's behind the lack of role-playing in all the generations of AD&D and D&D Living Campaigns (including Living Jungle). It's a drive to be the best - not only at your table, but in that tournament, at that particular con and within the whole RPGA. This drive is a strong motivator for many Living Campaing players, and it's infectious. If you've got one or two players who are always focussing on the kill and grab, soon everyone else at the table is doing the same thing. Heck, I've found myself doing it at cons that range from Forgotten Realms Night at my local hobby shop to Gen Con.
I'm certain the time limit for the event and the writer's guidelines that "suggest" X many combat encounters, Y many traps, and Z role playing oppertunities per round of the adventure(btw, often Z=1 or less) aren't helping matters any. However, since the kill and grab mentality has been around since the early days of the Living Campaigns, I think it's at least partially the nature of the beast.
Given that this style of play isn't very popular with most of the people I game with, I'm amazed that so many folks play LFR. However classic games (tournaments where you play pre-generated characters with backgound and history that tie deeply into the adventure) have almost disapeared from the RPGA offerings.
Yet it is those classic games, along with a few Living worlds such as Living Gothic, Living Star Wars and Shadowrun's Living campaign (I've forgoten it's name) that have some of the best roleplaying I've personally ever experienced. Yet even during the 2E era, you'd see 10 Living City events for each Living Gothic or Shadowrun game. I have never been able to understand why that is, but that's what I've seen. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 08:14:24
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| Well, there you go. Part of the problem is in the prizes awarded for killing and looting. Issue some prizes which require high role-playing standards (even if only a few given by Wizbro employees to handpicked players/groups) and the problem will largely correct itself as everyone (well, at least those people who feel role-playing is important) will strive to win them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 16:47:53
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| WotC is not involved with the RPGA other than con support. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2011 : 22:37:49
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I'll agree that LFR has had a general negative effect on the Realms, for the reasons you mentioned. RPGA also had a general negative effect on Greyhawk.
I steered clear of anything RPGA after trying it several years ago with a couple different groups here in my hometown. At first, I thought it was just bad luck with the first group, or maybe that I was a gamer girl, but nope. I think I hit three different groups, maybe about 12 sessions total, and absolutely nothing roleplay / story was genuinely important. To my mind, it's just a different way of playing D&D (which is fine if that's what makes you happy as a gamer). But without the characterization, without a DM weaving in parts of our characters stories into the overall campaign, it's just not the style of D&D that I prefer at all.
Home sessions, heavy in story and roleplay, that's what I love most. But I'm not about to rag on RPGA either, it's the way they like to play. D&D can serve both types.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 00:21:15
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Interesting.
I participated in the old 3.5 Living Greyhawk campaign a few times and it sucked badly. It was all about powergaming and min-maxing players who rushing through adventures that were written by other min-maxers ranged between boring and, often enough, just 'strange'. It seemed no one gave a carp about the quality of the story; neither players nor the dudes who wrote the adventures. Worst of all, all these strange adventure plots and their wierd outcomes were considered official and shaped the world (or unshaped it, if you ask me).
When I learned that the Forgotten Realms were going to be the next Living Campaign - world, I felt sorry for the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 02:17:18
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Actually I don't mind spying on powergamers. There's the possibility of discovering new min/max efficiencies you'd never considered. Some inner nerdisfaction can be gained when you know you can gain +1 advantage over even the finest powergaming champions the RPGA kingdom can offer.
Plus, it's always good to see the approaches and little tricks other DMs use to handle the players. I'm always on the lookout for more of that. My players tend to behave like the wheels on a bad shopping buggy, each protesting loudly and stubbornly struggling to steer the party in some indecisive semi-random direction. Sometimes the party insists on moving off course or crashing into things, a little heavyhanded force is needed to steer them back.
I think settings die off for a number of reasons, Living Campaigns might be a symptom of impending death but they aren't the cause. Greyhawk was simply abandoned/discontinued by Wizbro (or so it seems to me), not murdered by LG. I doubt LFR is going to hurt or kill the Realms much; if the Realms dies it will be for other reasons. It's not like anybody playing at those RPGA tables isn't familiar with the setting products or that they will be dissuaded from ever buying another Realms book because one afternoon in LFR really sucked. Many of these DMs/players are role players, as can be readily seen in pickup games, but when they play RPGA tourneys they minmax and powergame and play to win. I would probably do the same, I would certainly do it when the rest of the party or the competition plays that way.
I do agree that RPGA adventures should be set in generic blank-setting modules. Let the DM and players focus on what they really want to do at the competition and save the role-playing for a different game. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Jan 2011 02:37:08 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 04:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The Forgotten Realms, while loosing steam due to the way in which 4E runs it's campaign settings, seems to be still doing quite well. With two new video games set for 2011, another sourcebook for Neverwinter, AND a list of novels, I think it appears to be thriving.
Not to intrude on the discussion (which I find really fascinating), but I think you'll see in the upcoming NWCG, a move toward in-depth story, rather than an excess of the encounter-encounter-rest-encounter model. I like to describe it as "acres and acres" of story, actually.
Also, some of the adventure design I've been working on lately is focusing a lot more on story than combat. I hope this trend continues, as I find the story and detail is really what hooks me, at least, into the game.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Crossed Arrows
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 05:59:25
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What does the following mean exactly?
"Combine this with the fact that WotC has officially pulled its connection to the campaign, and you can see how this is a death-kneel"
Is WotC no longer going to produce FR material and the setting will die away? |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 15:17:56
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No, they pulled away from the RPGA and the Living Campaign. Sorry for not qualifying my statement early. Prior, a WotC staff-member would review the LFR modules and they were approved accordingly (thus, canonized). Module writers were paid accordingly, etc... etc...
WotC has since pulled away from this, not unlike LG, and all content from here on out is not to be considered canon. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 15:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
No, they pulled away from the RPGA and the Living Campaign. Sorry for not qualifying my statement early. Prior, a WotC staff-member would review the LFR modules and they were approved accordingly (thus, canonized). Module writers were paid accordingly, etc... etc...
WotC has since pulled away from this, not unlike LG, and all content from here on out is not to be considered canon.
Which I think is a good thing. Espically before when the LFR modules weren't publicly offered. How's a Realms fan supposed to know what's going on when they can't have the info to at least look at?
OTOH, this allows Module writers to do anything they want within the setting and it'll be considered "Realms" though not Canon. This could lead to arguments about core information leaking into Realm-space like the Raven Queen deity or Dark Sun monsters for example. And even though it's not Canon, because the mod was set in FR, people will think other wise.
Still, I'm happy that we now get to download these modules to run at home and I'm really excited to play ADAP2-01 Monument of the Ancients by Matt and Brian James. Looks like a lot of fun guys. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 15:41:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not to intrude on the discussion (which I find really fascinating), but I think you'll see in the upcoming NWCG, a move toward in-depth story, rather than an excess of the encounter-encounter-rest-encounter model. I like to describe it as "acres and acres" of story, actually.
Also, some of the adventure design I've been working on lately is focusing a lot more on story than combat. I hope this trend continues, as I find the story and detail is really what hooks me, at least, into the game.
Cheers
Really looking forward to it, though my main problem is that it's not being released til the 3rd quarter of next year and I'd rather not wait that long. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:23:21
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I fear what might be done to Monument of the Ancients. Our adventure was so rich in Realmslore that I'm afraid they (RPGA) will butcher it :(
I'm hoping for the best though! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:25:10
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| Nevermind, I see it is an ADAP (Adapted Adventure). This is good as it requires the original adventure to be run :) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 19:29:43
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What are ADAP modules? Who (re)writes them?
I was under the impression that LC/LG/LFR modules were written by WotC specifically for RPGA cons? |
[/Ayrik] |
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How LFR is killing the Forgotten Realms
