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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2011 : 11:32:57
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Alright, I'll definitely give it a try. Thanks, CoA. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2011 : 11:37:02
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| No problem. But yea, in my opinion this is definitely the best superhero show since Justice League Unlimited ended. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2011 : 15:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Not so far he hasn't. Heard he's supposed to show up in season two.
Yeah.
I'd take that rumour with a grain of salt, though. As Strange was supposedly also going to appear in a future episode of Iron Man: Armoured Adventures during the first season as well. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2011 : 15:24:30
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Hmm...I really hope he appears. And not just in one episode (as what seemed to be the trend in the past---the old Hulk and Spiderman series), but in the entire season. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 00:18:51
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Isn't really a deal breaker for me. I don't mind Strange but he's a hard character to use. He's powerful enough to become a deus ex machina and toning him down generally gets the fans upset.
Anyway, show's got Hulk and Thor(my marvel faves) and it's using them properly. So I'm good with it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 07:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
He's powerful enough to become a deus ex machina and toning him down generally gets the fans upset.
There are a few Marvel characters that are beyond him, so I think that wouldn't be a problem. As for those enemies that he could easily squash, well, he could provide guidance to the other Avengers on how, when, and where to vanquish them instead of getting involved directly. (Elminster does it all the time.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 08:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I don't mind Strange but he's a hard character to use.
A very good example of this would be the early 90's "Rise of the Midnight Sons" storyline. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 10:42:58
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A lot of people don't buy the "guidence" thing when lives are at stake. They think that if someone is capable of making the problem go away by twitching their finger, then they should do that instead of being so presumptuous as to teach others lessons they didn't ask for. It's a debatable point.
As for bringing in the big Strange villains on even a semi-regular basis...I honestly think it'd be too "big". The Avengers should deal with big threats, yes, but turning it into a cosmic horror story could spoil the show. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 14:04:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
As for bringing in the big Strange villains on even a semi-regular basis...I honestly think it'd be too "big". The Avengers should deal with big threats, yes, but turning it into a cosmic horror story could spoil the show.
In the Avengers comics, did Strange appear only when there's a problem of cosmic proportion? If not, then the animated series could show him how he did business in the comics.
Even if the problem is too big, Strange doesn't have to personally battle the enemy, as evident in this passage from wiki, "Rise of the Midnight Sons:"
quote:
Lilith, the Mother of Demons, was a powerful necromancer whose origins date back to pre-Cataclysmic Atlantis. Thousands of years ago, Atlantean sorcerers defeated Lilith and imprisoned her within the remains of the Biblical Leviathan. Lilith left behind many children, which she called her Lilin. Over the course of centuries, the Lilin began to breed with normal humans, and their demonic blood was diluted with every passing generation. The body of the Leviathan remained buried for millennia until discovered in recent years in the frozen wastelands of Greenland.
At this time, Doctor Strange became aware that Lilith was regaining power and would soon rise from her long slumber. He also knew that she intended on opening a dimensional rift that would enable her to conquer the world with her Lilin brood. As the Sorcerer Supreme of the Earth realm, Strange knew that his magic was actually too potent to combat Lilith directly. Such a display of power would only serve to open the rift even further, strengthening Lilith's foothold on Earth. The key to stopping Lilith lied with nine chosen warriors – the Midnight Sons. Individually, each one possessed only minimal power, but joined together they had the potential for permanently stopping Lilith's advance. When Lilith finally emerged from her torpor, Strange set about gathering as many of the mystic Nine as he could find.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 14:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Isn't really a deal breaker for me. I don't mind Strange but he's a hard character to use. He's powerful enough to become a deus ex machina and toning him down generally gets the fans upset.
Anyway, show's got Hulk and Thor(my marvel faves) and it's using them properly. So I'm good with it.
That's true, though I always wanted to see Strange in movies or TV shows his powers make him a difficult character to use, I guess the only way to use it would be even if he somehow got depowered, or in his first adventures where he was a little less powerful I think; still got to finish reading them. But making him appear would be a challenge, like the one they are gonna face trying to combine Tony Stark's tech with the Thor magic in The Avengers movie |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 16:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
[In the Avengers comics, did Strange appear only when there's a problem of cosmic proportion? If not, then the animated series could show him how he did business in the comics.
Mostly, when Strange interacted with the Avengers, it was either because his team of Defenders were fighting alongside [or, sometimes, against] the Avengers, or he was helping to guard against universe-shattering events, like the "Infinity Gauntlet" saga.
quote:
Even if the problem is too big, Strange doesn't have to personally battle the enemy, as evident in this passage from wiki, "Rise of the Midnight Sons:"
Of course, things changed slightly for the follow-up storyline -- Siege of Darkness -- whereupon Strange literally self-imploded in a massive explosion of arcane energy in an attempt to prevent Lilith and her Lilin from breaching his Sanctum and making off with all his powerful artifacts. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 16:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Even if the problem is too big, Strange doesn't have to personally battle the enemy, as evident in this passage from wiki, "Rise of the Midnight Sons:"
Of course, things changed slightly for the follow-up storyline -- Siege of Darkness -- whereupon Strange literally self-imploded in a massive explosion of arcane energy in an attempt to prevent Lilith and her Lilin from breaching his Sanctum and making off with all his powerful artifacts.
Oh, I didn't know that. So he died and resurrected himself? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 16:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Even if the problem is too big, Strange doesn't have to personally battle the enemy, as evident in this passage from wiki, "Rise of the Midnight Sons:"
Of course, things changed slightly for the follow-up storyline -- Siege of Darkness -- whereupon Strange literally self-imploded in a massive explosion of arcane energy in an attempt to prevent Lilith and her Lilin from breaching his Sanctum and making off with all his powerful artifacts.
Oh, I didn't know that. So he died and resurrected himself?
Basically, Strange had discovered that his very being had been corrupted by a form of pervasively chaotic magic from a former aspirant Sorcerer Supreme... Salome. The good Doctor was then forced to destroy himself [at least, from the POV of mortals]. In reality, he actually shifted himself to a pocket-dimension of his own creation where he practically recreated his mortal form [while also employing two semi-autonomous psionic-like constructs he created in the instant of his "death" {using a variant form of time-stop, I believe} to carry out his affairs back in the real world] and developed an entirely new form of magic that he could use to eventually battle Salome and reclaim his title of Sorcerer Supreme.
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Edited by - The Sage on 10 Aug 2011 16:48:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 17:10:48
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Wow. That's really interesting. It's like what Tezzeret did to himself, albeit Tezzeret's "recreation" was not as grand as Strange's. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2011 : 18:11:20
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| Anyways Strange failed to prevent the House of M events, though I'm not sure what level of power he had back there, and if in some other circustances he could have stopped Wanda to start the Decimation |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 01:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Anyways Strange failed to prevent the House of M events, though I'm not sure what level of power he had back there, and if in some other circustances he could have stopped Wanda to start the Decimation
I wouldn't say Strange 'failed' to prevent the events of "House of M." That's a little unfair.
It should be noted that the reality-warping powers of the Scarlet Witch had only suddenly exceeded her own previous limits... literally threatening the bounds of the physical universe in the space of a few days. Strange simply wasn't yet prepared to counter abilities that practically [and so very rapidly] diminished his own.
To put this into greater context, I'll note further that most of the best minds in the Marvel Universe -- both scientifically inclined and arcane-minded [including Strange] -- didn't know how to handle the almost god-like powers the Scarlet Witch now possessed.
It caught everyone by surprise. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 02:33:41
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He also couldn't heal Aunt May after she got shot. The upper guys at Marvel don't care so much for continuity when faced with their new ideas. That's how Wanda got those godlike reality warping powers; she'd never displayed anything on that level before, and then she could irreversably implament changes across the multiverse.
Not that I'm bitter or anything. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 06:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
He also couldn't heal Aunt May after she got shot. The upper guys at Marvel don't care so much for continuity when faced with their new ideas. That's how Wanda got those godlike reality warping powers; she'd never displayed anything on that level before, and then she could irreversably implament changes across the multiverse.
I haven't read the comics, but I watched the animated series X-Men Evolution. Wanda was one of the (or maybe the most) unstable mutants in terms of power growth and control. Even after Mezmero helped her, she still showed instability every now and then. That her powers grew exponentially was...not really a surprise. I recall that episode when the X-Men discussed what was her power exactly, one commented, (Kitty, I think) "Try everything." And in their fight in a mall, Wanda defeated them without breaking a sweat. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 08:45:14
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| Wanda's story is one of gradually increasing power with little in the way of explaination beyond the laziness of those around her to determine exactly what it is that she does. Originally her power was simply the alteration of probabilities of events around her; whether or not someone would trip, whether that piece of rubble would fall in just the right way to crush someone. Then they decided to up the anti and gave her the mutant power to control magic(chaos magic, to be specific) because someone felt that her code name should be more literal. Then someone said "Ok, we need to depower all mutants in a way they can't take back. Wanda's god now." and made her a reality warper, even having Doc Strange announce "There's no such thing as chaos magic", while neglecting to have him explain why he hadn't pointed that out years ago, or why the existance of chaos magic had been used as a plot point before. Her being an extremely powerful mutant is one thing; but marvel had enough reality warpers already. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 10:55:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Anyways Strange failed to prevent the House of M events, though I'm not sure what level of power he had back there, and if in some other circustances he could have stopped Wanda to start the Decimation
I wouldn't say Strange 'failed' to prevent the events of "House of M." That's a little unfair.
It should be noted that the reality-warping powers of the Scarlet Witch had only suddenly exceeded her own previous limits... literally threatening the bounds of the physical universe in the space of a few days. Strange simply wasn't yet prepared to counter abilities that practically [and so very rapidly] diminished his own.
To put this into greater context, I'll note further that most of the best minds in the Marvel Universe -- both scientifically inclined and arcane-minded [including Strange] -- didn't know how to handle the almost god-like powers the Scarlet Witch now possessed.
It caught everyone by surprise.
Not like I was trying to be hasrsh at Strange, is my fav Maervel char with difference, is just that pretty surprised me how a situation that was, somehow, dealing with reality messing could surpase for once the Sorcerer Supreme, I wouldn't have been if I knew what House of M was about to begin with  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 15:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Not like I was trying to be hasrsh at Strange, is my fav Maervel char with difference, is just that pretty surprised me how a situation that was, somehow, dealing with reality messing could surpase for once the Sorcerer Supreme, I wouldn't have been if I knew what House of M was about to begin with
I think the "running out of time" aspect was a critical concern for Strange.
He had long maintained that he could do very little for Wanda in the period just before the world went white and she changed everything. But I'd imagine that was only because he knew he'd require more time to work on her unique case.
Given the scope of powers that Strange has displayed in the past -- those which have literally manipulated the very fabric of reality -- I can easily see him eventually working up some arcane method to lessen [or even, perhaps, negate] the more damaging aspects of Wanda's bewildering powers.
He was, after all, able to halt the return of Chthon -- an Elder God -- to the Earth.
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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Aug 2011 15:27:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 16:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
He was, after all, able to halt the return of Chthon -- an Elder God -- to the Earth.
 I got the following passage from wiki:
quote:
In his dimension the Other-Realm, Chthon prepared to return to Earth. Doctor Strange traveled to Chthon's dimension and, while communicating with the demon, Strange nearly gave in to the darkness (which would have killed him), but Strange was saved only by his faith in "something far subtler and far more majestic than the Great Shadow." Strange then cast a spell with that faith at Chthon, causing the demon to shudder.
What exactly is that something? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
731 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 16:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Not like I was trying to be hasrsh at Strange, is my fav Maervel char with difference, is just that pretty surprised me how a situation that was, somehow, dealing with reality messing could surpase for once the Sorcerer Supreme, I wouldn't have been if I knew what House of M was about to begin with
I think the "running out of time" aspect was a critical concern for Strange.
He had long maintained that he could do very little for Wanda in the period just before the world went white and she changed everything. But I'd imagine that was only because he knew he'd require more time to work on her unique case.
Given the scope of powers that Strange has displayed in the past -- those which have literally manipulated the very fabric of reality -- I can easily see him eventually working up some arcane method to lessen [or even, perhaps, negate] the more damaging aspects of Wanda's bewildering powers.
He was, after all, able to halt the return of Chthon -- an Elder God -- to the Earth.
As I'm not much into the comics maybe this is not a good question, but I think sometimes powers have been negated in one way or another Wanda's power were too strong for that? Or they simply declined this option as she has been an avenger? |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2011 : 19:23:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
He was, after all, able to halt the return of Chthon -- an Elder God -- to the Earth.
I got the following passage from wiki:
quote:
In his dimension the Other-Realm, Chthon prepared to return to Earth. Doctor Strange traveled to Chthon's dimension and, while communicating with the demon, Strange nearly gave in to the darkness (which would have killed him), but Strange was saved only by his faith in "something far subtler and far more majestic than the Great Shadow." Strange then cast a spell with that faith at Chthon, causing the demon to shudder.
What exactly is that something?
Well, going with the obvious guess it would be the One-Above-All, i.e. God(or Jack Kirby, depending on how meta you're feeling).
That being said, Chthon is actually one of Strange's weaker enemies(he's an insect compared to Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath), so it could have been something not quite on the OAA's level. I'd say the Living Tribunal or Eternity, but they aren't exactly subtle(where as the OAA is). |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 00:58:33
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| I'd like to add that Wanda's altering of reality was part of her growing mental instability (not just her powers) and she had already created a delusional "pocket world" complete with children of her own who did not actually exist. Her final breakdown occured when she was shown the truth of their non-existance, and she went bonkers. It was almost literally an instant change. Combine that with her growing mutant power, and you have reality-Armageddon. M Day was a direct result of her anger and frustration with her father Magneto, an attempt to give everyone what they most wanted- or at least what SHE thought they would want most. Turned out that a lot of them were not happy with her "gift", and thus they attempted to stop her and put everything back. That's what finally caused her to say "no more mutants" and MEAN it. It's only been the last couple of years that they actually started being born again, starting with Hope. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 01:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What exactly is that something?
It's largely left undefined, and up to the mind of the reader.
Interestingly, though, that wasn't the encounter with Chthon that I was thinking of. 
When Strange again halted the Elder God's advance, Chthon was growing into the grand heights of his power once again. This occurred shortly before he destroyed himself in the aforementioned "Siege of Darkness" tale. [By Oghma, I've referenced that particular storyline a great many times this week in conversation with several different folk. Maybe it's time for a re-read.] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 01:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
As I'm not much into the comics maybe this is not a good question, but I think sometimes powers have been negated in one way or another Wanda's power were too strong for that? Or they simply declined this option as she has been an avenger?
Her status as both an Avenger and a mutant left both her fellow team mates and the X-Men with some pretty difficult decisions to make. Some were particularly "final," in that, a number of folk were convinced Wanda had to be destroyed because of the threat her powers posed, while others still sought for methods that would free her from the maddening streak running through her shattered mind. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 01:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
That being said, Chthon is actually one of Strange's weaker enemies(he's an insect compared to Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath), so it could have been something not quite on the OAA's level. I'd say the Living Tribunal or Eternity, but they aren't exactly subtle(where as the OAA is).
Well, Strange has tackled with [and bested {depending on one's interpretation}] Eternity, so ... |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 02:53:03
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| So yea, probably not her. Eternity's the female one, right? Or is it Infinity? Always mix that up. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 03:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
So yea, probably not her. Eternity's the female one, right? Or is it Infinity? Always mix that up.
Both Eternity and Infinity have no true physical forms, but when they've manifested avatar-like constructs to interact with mortals, Eternity usually takes on a male form, while Infinity assumes a more feminine body-shape. |
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Films of Interest to Realms Fans . . .
