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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 09:34:41
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The funny thing is that eladrins are also divided into a bunch of subraces, celestial/outsider eladrin paragons roam the planes of Arborea and Feywild, and they maintain their own fey Court of Stars. Elves are now really little more than a bunch of pointy-eared humans who are good at archery and live longer.
Agreed - what's the point of all this? Totally useless, except possibly as a prologue for the two races to battle for dominance.
The least offensive explanation I can think of for suddenly introducing eladrins to the Realms is that they may be descended from proto-elven ancestors who were stranded on Abeir until the Spellplague. Maybe the Evermeets of the two worlds were transposed, and Abeirmeet (now on Toril) only had some eladrin villages instead of elven cities. Eladrin might only exist on Toril (and Abeir) and only just starting to disperse to other worlds and planes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 10:06:59
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The point was to reduce the Elven races BACK down to three, as we had in 1e. The Gray/High Elves (cultured, city-builders, etc), the Sylvan Elves (Forest-dwelling, usually more 'primitive'), and the drow.
Thats all we had in the beginning, and I have no problem with it. Bringing in the silly PS term 'Eladrin' (Elven Angels - I think I'm going to throw-up) was a mistake. Obviously someone was in-love with that term (probably whoever created it) - too bad they are the only ones who like it. I have always had 'High Elves' and 'Sylvan Elves' - those are THE two major branches of the race. the mistake was made (I think in UA) when the two groups were given different stats, inferring that they were different races (which they are not... until now). Drow, on the other hand, were magically/divinely altered, and have been separated form the others for thousands of years, so separate modifiers for them makes sense.
Drop the Eladrin and say 'High Elf', and drop 'green' and use Sylvan (circumventing the symantec problems of having 'dark green elves') instead, and your life will make much more sense, and nothing (mechanically) need be changed.
There was also a Gray elf, which adds even more confusion, because in Fr they got that backwards from core (I differentiate the two by using 'grey' and 'gray' - silly, but it works for me). Mechanically, the gold elves were the core gray elves.
Anyhow, just ignore the Eladrin term - consider that some strange, extra-planer term for elves that dwell outside the prime - and you will be all the happier for it. In fact, Rich Baker himself said to just ignore it, and he wished they hadn't used it so heavily throughout the 4e FRCG (back when he was the only designer willing to answer questions post 4e in the "ask the designers" thread at WotC). There really is absolutely no good reason it needed to be shoe-horned into FR, aside from forcing FR to fit some pre-conceived '4e mold'.
Its 'junk lore', and should be discarded (because it affects nothing). All it does is add another layer of confusion. I seriously doubt that after all the backlash, they used that term at-all in the 4e Eberron material (but I could be wrong - I know absolutely ZERO about 4e Eberron). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2010 10:12:33 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 11:02:33
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WotC shoehorned the Eldrin and the Feywild into Darksun... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 12:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
WotC shoehorned the Eldrin and the Feywild into Darksun...
Really, how? I remember from my couple 2e books on the subject that Athas wasn't exactly the kind of place that made it easy to leave, with the Gray blocking most people from doing any sort of planar traveling. That still exists, right? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 13:12:12
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WotC released two "4E preview" books around 2007, Wizards Presents Races and Classes and Wizards Presents Worlds and Monsters. I avoided buying these - companies seriously expect people to pay money to buy commercials? these books should've been free downloads to hype up 4E before launch - but I now have the opportunity to pick up used copies. They apparently give many insights into the thoughts of the 4E design team (at that time), and they might answer some of the questions discussed here.
Has anyone read these books? Are they worth buying? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 18:50:07
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You do realize that the term "Eladrin" isn't even used by Sun, Moon, or even Star elves in the Realms. They are just referred as their previous elven names. Really, the only thing that changed was the mechanics of their abilities and what feats they can choose. Sure, it makes the distinction in the FRCG/FRPG that Eladrin are sun and moon elves but again, just to make sure player's understand what's what.
And as far as the celestial creatures previously known as Eladrin, they're still there listed in the Monster Manual etc... But they are a more powerful type of creature. Much like there is a greater divide between a simple ol' demon and an Arch-Demon or Demon Prince. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 18:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
WotC released two "4E preview" books around 2007, Wizards Presents Races and Classes and Wizards Presents Worlds and Monsters. I avoided buying these - companies seriously expect people to pay money to buy commercials? these books should've been free downloads to hype up 4E before launch - but I now have the opportunity to pick up used copies. They apparently give many insights into the thoughts of the 4E design team (at that time), and they might answer some of the questions discussed here.
Has anyone read these books? Are they worth buying?
I believed as you did, and didn't purchase something I didn't see any need for. But they don't have any insight for their changes and how it effects the Realms. Too bad they don't do a few DDI articles for the Realms that show the changes they made and why. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 19:17:05
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I could get them brand new right now at my local discount bookstore for about $5... and still won't buy them. They are advertisements, and should have been FREE (that was PURE greed). BTW, the Grand History of the Realms was also supposed to be Free... until someone realized they could increase their year-end bottom-line without they, themselves having to work any harder.
There were a few ideas touted in those preview tomes I liked, that were never even used. Not only were they advertisements, they were misleading advertisements.
EDIT: I saw those preview books there just last week, but I don't see them on their website. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2010 19:26:32 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 20:48:32
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I don't think it's right to complain about not receiving freebies. Especially since D&D book prices are so low these days (compared to the old days, where cover price for core books was around $25 and real price was closer to $45). I scored tons of excellent stuff from the official downloads page - most of which would definitely be worth paying for.
But I do feel it's wrong to charge the consumer to purchase your product advertisements. The internet criticizes these two books as being marketing brochures full of "useless behind the scenes fluff" to showcase the (then new) 4E artwork and kewl features. I'm assuming there must be something more than that, otherwise these books would've been posted on the wizards website. Of course my assumption might be wrong. Just looking for opinions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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penguin jones
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 22:01:48
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| as far as the seven sisters goes, storm is still alive and taking care of Elminster. He only goes mad when he uses magic and Storm is the only one that can cure his madness. |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 22:53:22
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Save there is no distinction... Eladrin and Elf are syonomous terms by the Year of the Ageless One.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Doesn't seem very creative.
Ah, good point. There's nothing in the scant information we have from the FRCG that says why the elves dispersed, nor are we told why the elves who stayed chose to retreat to the forests on the Faerun-side.
The whole elf-eladrin division seems so stark to me that it doesn't make sense IMO that the elves would sit back and let things be as they are. Why depart when the Elven Court has gifted them with an entire island, virtually untouched, to start anew in?
Going forward, I'd expect the elves who remained to build the Faerun-side (we really need a word for that) of Evermeet into a bastion representative of them and not the eladrin.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 02:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by penguin jones
as far as the seven sisters goes, storm is still alive and taking care of Elminster. He only goes mad when he uses magic and Storm is the only one that can cure his madness.
Is that as of Elminster Must Die? |
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 02:52:10
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| Thanks Alystra. I've extra reason to bump it up to a higher priority on the reading list. |
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 03:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
quote:
Originally posted by penguin jones
as far as the seven sisters goes, storm is still alive and taking care of Elminster. He only goes mad when he uses magic and Storm is the only one that can cure his madness.
Is that as of Elminster Must Die?
Yeah Storm is in it. Read it to find out what happened to Storm. If you are a Mirt fan, you should be pleased at the creative way Ed brings him forward... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 14:54:56
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Before I rake you over the coals, I wanted to say "good point" re: Evermeet and its usefulness to the average 3E and earlier campaign. Unless you're running an all-elves campaign, why go there?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There were a few ideas touted in those preview tomes I liked, that were never even used. Not only were they advertisements, they were misleading advertisements.
I'm confused by this. What parts "weren't used" and how does that make both books (they're not advertisements, however much you'd like to spin it that way) misleading?
I purchased and read both books and found neither was misleading in any way. They were succinct descriptions of the design methodology that WotC implemented. It would have been preferable to me to see this information be made available for free online, but the book pricing wasn't so high that I felt I was being ripped off.
I'll admit to partaking in the fun of watching people get irritated with WotC, ask "why?" about 4E changes, but then they refuse to buy the books with the answers to their questions.
If you're going to spend the time to get annoyed, you might as well spend the money in order to maximize your grist for the mill.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, the Grand History of the Realms was also supposed to be Free... until someone realized they could increase their year-end bottom-line without they, themselves having to work any harder.
Where are you even getting this?
GHotR was based off of Brian R. James' massive (and totally free) timeline that he'd posted online. Rich Baker saw the value in the work and pushed to have WotC publish it, which not coincidentally meant editing, map creation and all the other work to print a book.
The only real problem with that book (IMO) was that WotC repurposed previously used artwork (something they'd already been doing in other books) to the point they included a picture of a Warforged. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 26 Dec 2010 15:34:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 15:25:43
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quote:
Mr_Miscellany
I purchased and read both books and found neither was misleading in any way. They were succinct descriptions of the design methodology that WotC implemented. It would have been preferable to me to see this information be made available for free online, but the book pricing wasn't so high that I felt I was being ripped off.
I'll admit to partaking in the fun of watching people get irritated with WotC, ask "why?" about 4E changes, but then they refuse to buy the books with the answers to their questions.
Guilty as charged, at least to some extent - I refused to buy these books on principle. Apparently they were advertising brochures, but apparently they were also much more. Why should I waste time speculating or arguing if the answers were already given? You and Markus have just convinced me these books are worth buying. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 15:51:02
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quote:
Therise- Although they are described as being either one or the other of the parents' sub-races, the fact remains that they are still technically both. The outward traits of the genetics don't really matter- the fact is that a Moon elf born to a Gold and Moon elf parents could still (theoretically) give birth to a Gold elf- because she would still carry those genes, just like a Siamese cat may still give birth to solid-color kittens if one of the cat's parents was of a different color than Siamese. One might be dominant over the other, but that does not mean the other is not still there!
I think you're misunderstanding. Elvish genetics and human genetics don't work the same, unless they've made a major change in 4E.
Elves "breed true" meaning that if you have a moon elf child, even if one of its parents is a sun elf, that it is only a moon elf and only can carry moon elf genes forward when it mates. One of the moon elf child's parents had to have been a moon elf, and they take after that parent genetically. The mixing of genes that happens with humans (or cats, or plants), it's just not the same at all for the elves. It's not just about outward appearance, there's no hybridization of genetics - it's one or the other.
What you're suggesting is normal genetics, and it's logical, though it's not how elvish genetics work. From what I remember, the "breeding true" for elves has been the case for a very long time in the Realms. The reason why it's that way probably had to do with game mechanics more than a genuinely good lore-related reason.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Dec 2010 16:40:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 16:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, the Grand History of the Realms was also supposed to be Free... until someone realized they could increase their year-end bottom-line without they, themselves having to work any harder.
Where are you even getting this?
GHotR was based off of Brian R. James' massive (and totally free) timeline that he'd posted online. Rich Baker saw the value in the work and pushed to have WotC publish it, which not coincidentally meant editing, map creation and all the other work to print a book.
The only real problem with that book (IMO) was that WotC repurposed previously used artwork (something they'd already been doing in other books) to the point they included a picture of a Warforged.
I really don't like defending WotC, but I've got to agree with Misc. Getting the timeline published gave Brian money, put the timeline into the hands of people who didn't have it, and gave us more lore. I liked the pdf -- and I personally take credit for first mentioning it on the WotC forums, though I can't prove that -- and I readily refer to both versions when looking something up.
WotC could have sicced the lawyers on him, and either demanded it be taken down or simply said "yeah, all that material is ours, so the compilation is, too" and published it while not even crediting Brian. As far as I'm concerned, WotC very much did the right thing with how they brought the timeline to print.
I will add one complaint to Misc's, though: I like that the original also had references to which source described each point of lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 18:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think you're misunderstanding. Elvish genetics and human genetics don't work the same, unless they've made a major change in 4E.
Not to my knowledge. Elven genetics haven't changed since the Spellplague (save for their mechanical differences).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Elves "breed true" meaning that if you have a moon elf child, even if one of its parents is a sun elf, that it is only a moon elf and only can carry moon elf genes forward when it mates. One of the moon elf child's parents had to have been a moon elf, and they take after that parent genetically. The mixing of genes that happens with humans (or cats, or plants), it's just not the same at all for the elves. It's not just about outward appearance, there's no hybridization of genetics - it's one or the other.
What you're suggesting is normal genetics, and it's logical, though it's not how elvish genetics work. From what I remember, the "breeding true" for elves has been the case for a very long time in the Realms. The reason why it's that way probably had to do with game mechanics more than a genuinely good lore-related reason.
So I was going to try and argue with you when I re-read your post and I think you are 100% correct. When I read RAS's The Orc King, the Moon elf cleric of Corellon and the Drow had children and they were definily either a drow kid or a moon elf kid, not a racial mix between the two.
I also think there is further evidence in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves, though I can' pin-point the exact reference. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 18:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think you're misunderstanding. Elvish genetics and human genetics don't work the same, unless they've made a major change in 4E.
Not to my knowledge. Elven genetics haven't changed since the Spellplague (save for their mechanical differences).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Elves "breed true" meaning that if you have a moon elf child, even if one of its parents is a sun elf, that it is only a moon elf and only can carry moon elf genes forward when it mates. One of the moon elf child's parents had to have been a moon elf, and they take after that parent genetically. The mixing of genes that happens with humans (or cats, or plants), it's just not the same at all for the elves. It's not just about outward appearance, there's no hybridization of genetics - it's one or the other.
What you're suggesting is normal genetics, and it's logical, though it's not how elvish genetics work. From what I remember, the "breeding true" for elves has been the case for a very long time in the Realms. The reason why it's that way probably had to do with game mechanics more than a genuinely good lore-related reason.
So I was going to try and argue with you when I re-read your post and I think you are 100% correct. When I read RAS's The Orc King, the Moon elf cleric of Corellon and the Drow had children and they were definily either a drow kid or a moon elf kid, not a racial mix between the two.
I also think there is further evidence in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves, though I can' pin-point the exact reference.
There is, in one of the 'past' chapters. A gold elf (Darthoridan I think was his name) loved a woman who was/became a sea elf... They had a son, Seanchai, who was fully a gold elf, to his mother's chagrin...
The kids of Tos'un and the elf (forgot her name) were moon elves, I think, both Teirflin and Doum'wielle. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 18:32:18
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quote:
So I was going to try and argue with you when I re-read your post and I think you are 100% correct. When I read RAS's The Orc King, the Moon elf cleric of Corellon and the Drow had children and they were definily either a drow kid or a moon elf kid, not a racial mix between the two.
I also think there is further evidence in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves, though I can' pin-point the exact reference.
Granted, I can't remember the origin of the "elves breed true" thing either. It's probably one of those very old hold-overs from 1E or before, when they needed a quick rule of thumb for elvish offspring and no one wanted to make a table for mixing elvish genetics (for stat bonuses based on subraces).
But I do think it's something that still applies, since it's been reflected in various novels for decades.
That said, I'm not keen on the new Eladrin vs Elf distinction as it doesn't make sense to me that gold elves were "closer" to the Feywild than forest elves. And as far as elvish subraces generally, I'd personally prefer genetic hybridization over the "breeds true" thing. But I think it's one of those weird holdovers from ages ago and it just stuck, unfortunately.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 20:34:49
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Even if WotC did initially intend to release GHotR online as a resource, how does that justify excoriating WotC (Rich Baker, amongst others) by characterizing them as lazy, money grubbing people?
Books are what WotC produces as a for-profit company.
I recall during the 2007 Gen Con listening in the audience while Rich Baker talked about the Grand History. My memory is swiss cheesy as ever, but I believe I recall Rich saying he made the decision re: the Grand History to acquire it and publish it. That was the first time I set eyes on Brian James and George Krashos, amongst others I'd only known through their writing (and arguing with them, tbh).
I think many of us have been around long enough to know what it costs to create a sourcebook and how much planning WotC does in advance of any book they publish, so I've a theory of my own as to why GHotR seemed rushed.
Wasn't GHotR one of the last Third Edition era books to see print around the announcement of 4th Edition D&D? If so, they (WotC) could have been on a shortened timeline and/or they may have had very little in terms of a budget to pay for the excellent, tying-history-together vignettes found in the book. The maps still had to be created and the book still would have needed to be edited. And there's the not too small matter of how much company resources were being taken up by 4E.
Under those constraints, the book seemed to me like more of a gift. Yeah it had some bad news on the last few pages; yes a thicker, even more detailed tome would have been awesome; yes it could have done without the danged warforged art, but I'm willing to bet there was no time or budget to give us more than what we got, so I’m happy with it.
I'll also take a book of pure Realmslore over an online resource of same any day, even if that means I have to pay for it.
I'll also point out to my fellow Scribes that the tome gives a shout out to Gray Richardson and the Scribes of Candlekeep. See page 2 of GHotR.
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Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 26 Dec 2010 21:12:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 03:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
I don't even recall them saying it would be made available for free on the WotC website.
I'm not recalling this, either, and I was, at that time, checking the WotC site on a daily basis -- sometimes more often.
I'd really like to see a link to where this info comes from. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 04:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I think you're misunderstanding. Elvish genetics and human genetics don't work the same, unless they've made a major change in 4E.
Not to my knowledge. Elven genetics haven't changed since the Spellplague (save for their mechanical differences).
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Elves "breed true" meaning that if you have a moon elf child, even if one of its parents is a sun elf, that it is only a moon elf and only can carry moon elf genes forward when it mates. One of the moon elf child's parents had to have been a moon elf, and they take after that parent genetically. The mixing of genes that happens with humans (or cats, or plants), it's just not the same at all for the elves. It's not just about outward appearance, there's no hybridization of genetics - it's one or the other.
What you're suggesting is normal genetics, and it's logical, though it's not how elvish genetics work. From what I remember, the "breeding true" for elves has been the case for a very long time in the Realms. The reason why it's that way probably had to do with game mechanics more than a genuinely good lore-related reason.
So I was going to try and argue with you when I re-read your post and I think you are 100% correct. When I read RAS's The Orc King, the Moon elf cleric of Corellon and the Drow had children and they were definily either a drow kid or a moon elf kid, not a racial mix between the two.
I also think there is further evidence in the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves, though I can' pin-point the exact reference.
There is, in one of the 'past' chapters. A gold elf (Darthoridan I think was his name) loved a woman who was/became a sea elf... They had a son, Seanchai, who was fully a gold elf, to his mother's chagrin...
The kids of Tos'un and the elf (forgot her name) were moon elves, I think, both Teirflin and Doum'wielle.
I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I meant. "Breeding true" is in fact a very simple aspect of both RW and elven genetics. In the simplest terms, it's the Dominance principle. In any set of genes, there is always a dominant and a recessive gene for the same trait. I merely used the Siamese cat to illustrate what I was saying. It's well-known that although it is a mutation, the color-point gene (and all of its variations) is a dominant trait, just as a drow and Moon elf tending to produce drow offspring would be. Breeding true does not mean the complete EXCLUSION of the other gene in a set, it is simply not expressed. Which means that if another parent in a later generation has the matching gene for that trait, it could still be expressed in a later offspring (ie- a Moon elf from a 2nd gen Moon/Drow cross.) I don't think the elven races breeding true was ever intended to mean that they are ONLY one or the other- just that they only express the traits of the dominant parent, whichever it happens to be. This seems to be why so many elven Clans have both Moon and Gold elves in their lines, or Wood, etc.
If the breeding true were ONLY because the offspring was JUST ONE, it would mean that whichever is the most dominant trait would eventually completely take over and all the others would disappear over time, leaving only one race. That has not happened by any means. They just have become so mixed that any elf in any given generation might have genes of Moon, Gold, or Wood lurking in their genetic background, enough to allow for either parent to pass on his or her "race" to the offspring of two sub-races, depending on which proves stronger. (Some genes have only partial dominance, so that it is possible for two traits to both show up, even if one is normally "dominant" over its counterpart. This is easily seen especially in cats, which is why I used that example! Think of elf and cat genes as very similar- there are only a few genes for either, but they can combine in ways that essentially create offspring of either side, or both in a mix- like mixing a drow and a sea elf...This may not be "canon", but has been used elsewhere.)
The reason they are breeding true isn't because the offspring are only one- it's because the gene-set (including ability scores, etc, not JUST looks!) happens to be dominant in that particular elf. If he/she married another elf race, it's likely that the children would take after the other parent, because they both had that trait. That's why you end up with branches of elven families that are all one or the other, or where there are branches with both. The recessive genes get re-introduced from elsewhere in the family or from another clan. It does in fact make perfect sense from that perspective.
I think the confusion comes in when you try to look at if from a purely mechanical standpoint. Seen that way, then yes, an elf would be "all one" race. (At least in terms of stats and appearance.) But if you look at the weird ways genetics actually work, it explains why so many of the elven Houses had multiple races in their family trees. This also explains why traits from one race occasionally pop up in one of the others. I remember a Moon elf with red hair, which appears to be a mostly Wood elven trait, and occasionally Gold. Same goes for eyes.
As a perfect example of how this works, I had two cats- brother and sister, so the gene pools was already pretty tight- one was color-point the other black. In four litters I ended up with five color-point, two black, and two gray kittens. Between them, the two were "breeding true" along the color-point line, for the most part, with a lesser number taking after the mother (the black one). There was AT LEAST one color-point in each of the litters, even though the three litters after the first were all sired by the gray male born in the first one! In other words, they were still breeding true as color-points, even when it was an offspring doing the breeding, because both parents had the gene. (And believe it or not, there were never any in-breeding problems in any of those litters, but it does show how the elven thing would work. I have a theory that cats are a bit fey to begin with, so perhaps the elven genetics are not so different...)
Okay, sorry for hijacking the thread, but I had to explain the point I was trying to make. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 09:10:37
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Back to the D&D genetics thing ...
The oversimplification is a little bit disappointing. Why is there an assumption that every hybrid creature will inherit the best (or at least half of the best) traits from both parents? There is an equal chance that the creature will inherit only the worst traits, or more likely, a middly bunch of unremarkable conflicting traits. With real genetics, a half-elf could express as almost identical to a human or an elf, as could the child of two half-elves (assuming they weren't sterile). Genetics in D&D worlds seems to be more "vibrant" than in ours, a lot of "impossibly unlikely" creatures and races are born and magical "bloodlines" carry very real manifestations.
Still, I'd think some half-elves would be as blind as humans in the dark, or as resistant to charms as any "pure" elf. And many half-elves would be weak or sickly, having all sorts of long-term health effects and organ failures and such stuff, they might have natural lifespans substantially shorter than either parent.
To be honest, D&D races are entirely different species with different (evolutionary or created) origins, there's no reason for them to be able to successfully interbreed at all. I'm also surprised there's no social taboos against it ... I don't see any problem with elves mating with other elves (even drow or aquatic types), but I wonder why elves are quite happy to mate with inbred human monkeys, whereas humans don't mind mating with dwarves and orcs, and planars and dragons will apparently mate with nearly anything sentient ... it just seems highly improbable to me, even if it were technically possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 15:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm also surprised there's no social taboos against it ... I don't see any problem with elves mating with other elves (even drow or aquatic types), but I wonder why elves are quite happy to mate with inbred human monkeys, whereas humans don't mind mating with dwarves and orcs, and planars and dragons will apparently mate with nearly anything sentient ... it just seems highly improbable to me, even if it were technically possible.
In a lot of cases, it is at the least frowned upon... Heck, to elves, it's easier to accept a human than it is a half-elf.
I think a lot of the interspecies mating you find unlikely isn't as much a case of an elf saying, "Hmm, I think I'll go breed with a human!" as it is simply two people finding each other attractive and falling into bed without any thought of the consequences -- something that happens readily enough within a race.
You also have to keep in mind that it's not always consensual. One of the most famous half-elves in TSR/WotC literature is Tanis Half-Elven, and he's a product of rape. The backstory for many half-orcs also includes rape.
Someone being alone and confused could also be taken advantage of by a member of another race. Not exactly the same thing, but the end result could still be an unplanned half-breed child. Again, something that happens readily enough within a given race.
With multiple races, living in close proximity to each other, it's pretty much inevitable that at some point, two members of different races are going to wind up in bed -- assuming compatible equipment, of course. It's logical to me, not improbable. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 16:25:57
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I don't even think raping a dragon, demon, celestial, or elemental/djinn would be possible. It seems obvious that members of these species make a very deliberate choice to shapechange and mate with "inferior" species like humans.
Half-elves seem to have evolved in post-1E lore as almost exclusively being the product of consenting parents; there's even entire societies of half-elves who "breed true" to produce more half-elves. I suppose more sophisticated societies like Zakhara might tolerate exotic interbreeding more easily.
None of this answers the question of eladrin halfbreeds. The possibility of celadrins suggests other hybrids are possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 16:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I don't even think raping a dragon, demon, celestial, or elemental/djinn would be possible. It seems obvious that members of these species make a very deliberate choice to shapechange and mate with "inferior" species like humans.
So you think it's impossible that a dragon might find an elf or a human attractive? You think it's improbable that a demon or celestial might decide there's a reason to get a girl pregnant? You think no djinn or elemental was ever forced -- either by a superior or by magical compulsion -- to have sex with a mortal?
Just like with members of the same race, there are countless reasons why members of different races could wind up having sex, and plenty of reasons why one or both members of that coupling might want a child from it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 17:20:12
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| Fair enough, Wooly. I suppose I shouldn't exclude the possibilities until D&D starts sporting ridiculous crossbreeds like drowforged, tanarchons, and dracobolds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Question - what officially happened to X?
