| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:17:11
|
In a large scale battle when three Wemic tribes with 1000 troops each band togethter VS a Centuar group of about the same size which side would be triumpant and why?
|
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
|
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 21:20:25
|
| In my own opinion the wemic's have the savage nature of the lion on there side. but centuars being part fey have a definate magical advantage over the wemic's. wemic's have a faster top running speed then the centuars do but the centuars have a much more balance combat efficency with a bow then the wemics do so this would counteract there lack of speed. it's really hard for me to decide which of the two is a mightier force on the battle field. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
 |
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 21:45:50
|
| These sorts of conversations are interesting, but they need more context: where are they fight? Why? What sorts of groups are involved? Centaurs are forest dwellers, wemics live on the plains. Obviously, being half horse means the centaurs would do well on a grassland, but the wemics might not do as well in the trees. How good are the generals, how sturdy the alliance? There are a lot more things we need to decide upon before we can give a good answer to the question. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 04:49:54
|
Wemics in HtH (melee), but the centaurs have ten-foot longbows! If the Wemics can get in close they would be devastating (imagine a lion fighting a horse), but that's a BIG 'If'.
Felines - although pack-orientated - do not hunt in packs, ergo I would imagine they would not be as good at large-scale engagements. Whereas centaurs, although not necessarily war-like by nature, are 'deep thinkers', and could probably make fairly good leaders and formulate intricate strategies.
A LOT would depend upon the terrain, but doesn't it always?
If they met on an open battlefield it would be akin to barbarians massing against a Roman Legion, and the Legion's superior training and discipline always won-out, even against overwhelming odds.
In terrain that would facilitate hit-&-run tactics and guerrilla warfare, the Wemics would have the edge.
Never cared much for Wemics, which is odd, because I usually love any type of cat-folk. The Orcs of my Homebrew World are more like humans crossed with great cats (like Sabertooth of marvel comics) then the 'piggish' D&D versions.
And I don't call them 'orcs' - I don't use any derivative or tropey names for my creatures (I try to make each variant a bit different then the standard D&D critter). One of my favorite aspects of the highly derivative Mithgar novels is that he gives all his creatures there own (non-Tolkien) names. Even though he admittedly 'copied' Tolkien's themes, he made them his own, which every writer should do. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 05:02:48 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 05:21:07
|
| I'm a huge fan of wemics, myself... But I really don't care for any of the other "tauric" critters, except maybe driders. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 05:21:17
|
Actually, MT, lions (and by extension wemics) DO hunt in "packs" with one or two acting to distract the herd by coming out into the open, while others wait in ambush in tall grass, or one actively stalking the chosen pray while others lay in wait, effectively herding it toward the hiding lionesses. (Who do all the work, while the male just comes in to claim the "lion's share afterward- typical male, lol! Incidentally, most felines are NOT "pack-oriented" at all, the only real exceptions being lions themselves, and to a much lesser extent, cheetahs and some feral house cats. All others prefer to live and hunt alone, unless it's a mother raising kittens/cubs.) In grassland, the speed is approximately equal, so a charge from either side would have similar results- a quick close to melee, during which the wemics would take the upper hand, since it's basically two cavalry forces colliding, but one can jump onto the other. (No, the wemics are NOT faster, it's like a lion against a zebra, sometimes the lion catches it, sometimes the equine gets away- depends on how close the lion gets before springing.)
Guerilla tactics would only work in a forest battle, where the centaurs would indeed win out, though I would hardly equate them to the Roman Legion. They may be more disciplined, but there are only so many tactics one can use for a cavalry unit, which both sides basically are. I believe you've got it backward, MT; the hit and run would work better for the wemics, with a get in close and get out style of fighting, against the less agile centaurs, who cannot turn as quickly due to their larger mass and more rigid bone structure. In a forest, however, centaurs could pick off the wemics from a distance, although their maneuverability would be further reduced. (Ever try to ride a horse through thick trees?)
That said, the morale and cohesion of the two forces would be the deciding factor, along with the terrain. Centaurs might be intimidated by the wemics' ferocity, which could break up tight units and scatter them, although by the same token, the wemics might easily loose a large number before getting into melee, which could put a dent in their resolve. Lions are notorious for giving up easily if the prey proves too strong. I'd expect the wemics would be about the same. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 06:02:32
|
I was thinking the example was a bit backwards as well. Undisciplined irregulars do indeed prevail against ordered formations ... but only when they can get sufficient mass up close and disrupt the formation. It is at a distance they'd get picked off, moreso in this case since wemics are awfully large targets and 1000 centaur bows could sustain a lot of damaging volleys.
Terrain is an overwhelming factor in this sort of contest. Wemics aren't dumb enough to charge ranged opponents across open ground, and centaurs aren't dumb enough to try to close into restricted-terrain areas (like forests) where they lose their advantage.
Small-unit guerilla actions, skirmishes, and harassment could go either way; but again, the edge would likely be determined by terrain. The wemic advantages in agility and evasion are largely effective only under the same conditions that favour centaur longbows. The sorts of cavalry actions we're used to don't take intelligent weapon-using mounts into account ... a "two weapon style" centauroid ranger charging with a pair of spears or lances can immediately destroy or cripple an opponent.
Possible classes (listed in PHBR10) for wemics include shaman and bard; possible classes for centaurs include shaman, bard, druid, and mage. Decisive advantage for centaurs. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 11:48:41
|
| Definately depends on the terrain. Up close melee, the wemics would maul the centaurs. In the covers of the forest, the centaurs have the advantage. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Wulf Waters
Acolyte
Australia
40 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 12:01:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They met on an open battlefield it would be akin to barbarians massing against a Roman Legion, and the Legion's superior training and discipline always won-out, even against overwhelming odds.
Asterix? 
Oh, my vote goes to the Centaurs. Chiefly based on the range long-bow and magic factors. |
|
|
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 14:29:34
|
| I pose this then! What if the wemic's could be paladins? not all of them mind you but the individual unit commanders? lets say that the centuars could be cavaliers to offset this what then? is it possible then that given these changes one side might prevail over the other? As for terrain lets say this battle is fought in an open grassland valley between two forested mountain ranges. And for the leaders the the centuars have a king that leads from the front much like alexander the great, who comes from a long line of centuarin kings. The wemic's have A tribal warlord that united the tribes for the betterment of his people and to stop the innocent sluaghtering of wemic against wemic thus pleaseing there god enough to allowing this warlords personnal guard to become paladins that would police this newly formed one tribe for good regime. what then if this was the case do you think would be the outcome? lets say that this dispute between then centuars and the wemics begins when the centuars invade the wemics valley home trying to expand out to the other forrested mountain range on the other side. the wemics have limited resouces in this valley and can hardly share with the centuars and feed there own so a conflict insues do to this lack of food stuffs for both sides and thus starts the senseless war! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:12:45
|
| I guess I could see a Wemic paladin of Nobanion, him being a LG deity AND having the lion/feline/animal portfolio. But then, Wemics are more barbarian-oriented tribes (chaotic, if you prefer) so it would be weird. A paladin Wemic should probably be a really rare occurrence, methink. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:33:05
|
Primitive/barbarian/shamanic paladins do seem like an anamoly; though I'm sure it's not impossible and not unheard of, there's probably any number of oddball PrCs of this type might be unearthed. Saying that some substantial number, perhaps 1 in every 10, out of 1000 wemics are such champions seems highly improbable.
Wemics seem, from what I've read, to be warlike, tribal, territorial, hunter types. It seems likely most classed wemics would be fighters, perhaps some fighter/multi types; many of the higher level sorts would probably have some sort of PrC which gives them a role as a tribal champion or master hunter/tracker or somesuch. Shamans, bards, maybe sorcerers and such would be present but would be more the exception than the norm; not more than a handful in each tribe/clan.
Centaurs seem, from what I've read, to be more silly, sylvan, and feyish. They like drinking and partying with elves. Classed centaurs might be any kind of eccentric mix, as many would be fighters as would not. So a relatively higher proportion would be druids, bards, and other spellcaster types. If even one quarter of the centaurs could cast spells, and if only 25 of these could cast 3rd level or higher spells then the wemics would be blasted hard before they could even close. Not even considering centaur archery and the fact that hoof-to-hoof combat is actually pretty balanced between the two (since they'd mostly be using weapons instead of bites and head-butts). Centaurs would also have a higher incidence of magic items. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:47:22
|
| Centaurs have always come off in the few Realms fiction examples we have as much more dour and serious woodland creatures than, say, satyrs or sprites. Look at the group that shows up to help the elves in Elfshadow, for instance. Just because you're "fey" doesn't mean you're flighty. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:17:12
|
| very true hoondatha! |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:23:54
|
lol, my bias showing again. In my mind anything and everybody that isn't a grog-drinkin' axe-grindin' stone-hardened dwarven battlerager is "fey and flighty".  |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 16:33:55
|
| I asked this question because ive always been fond of wemics! they would make the perfect chewbacca esk companion for a player character that travels the world. bodyguard, wise like the lion king, and in a pinch you can ride him into a battle (if he lets you)or out of a battle (again if he lets you). This would especially be cool if you were a ranger. you could fire arrows from his back well he fights off enemys from the front. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:06:11
|
| I believe they did that in Lion Witch and the Wardrobe- when Peter fought from the back of a centaur. As for hoof-topaw combat, those raking claws would gut most centaurs in a heartbeat. They would not be biting or head-butting- it would be hoof against claw. (Anyone who's ever been kicked by a horse knows that this can do some serious damage!) But as I said earlier, if it came down to gritty melee, the wemics would probably have it on sheer damage potential. Barbarians get rage, with the bonuses and extra HP that go with it, which might off-set the magic of the centaurs. Also, do not discount wemic shamans and sorcerers, and I can certainly see a few Nobanion paladins in the bunch. Then again, with the centaurs, you have the possibility of marshals as well, which might be strategically advantageous, and boost morale. Too many factors- what are the weather conditions? How well-fed and trained are the troops? Don't forget the wemics have more to loose! That is sometimes the deciding factor in a battle- sheer desperation and need. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:24:28
|
| I wasn't entirely discounting the wemic shamans, sorcerers, and bards. I figure they just basically cancel against the centaur shamans, sorcerers, and bards. Leaving a bunch of centaur rangers, fighter, mages, and druids vs wemic barbarians, rangers, and fighters. I'm not sure that hooves and claws are generally as effective as spears, lances, and blades; both sides would likely use weapons, wemic superiority in unarmed-only combat would be largely negated. Centaurs are also more intelligent, I notice. Not too shabby for a bunch of fey horsey-men. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:56:57
|
I think Wemics have the advantage in a forest-setting - cats are stealthy. Despite the lore to the contrary, Centaurs preferring to live in forests is a bit... ridiculous. Not only is there body-type more conducive to open plains, but they are also known to be exceptional archers, and forests do not allow for a whole lot of range (especially ancient sylvan ones). I think Centaurs dwelling in forests is something that came-about when 'man' started horning-in on their turf, and the Elves and other fey creatures 'took them in' to hide them. I do not think that is a natural state of evolution right there. There is some FR history concerning this (Centaurs vs Humans) in dragon #228.
FR Centaurs appear to have originated in the Unapproachable East (there is a Hordelands variant) - note the map on pgs. 48-49 in LEoF. Wemics appear to have originated in the Shining South, in the Shaar region. Both can be found most anywhere these days (including, bizarrely enough, the Stonelands).
I've had considered adding Wemics to my list of Rakshasa-created crossbreeds (with Centaurs, naturally), but I simply don't like them enough to really give it a whole lot of thought. I don't understand what it is about them that irritates me - I SHOULD like them because my tastes gravitate in that direction. It may just a be a case of very early - and very crappy - art.
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
I would think manticores would the natural enemy of Wemics - I should find that Dragon article and read it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 18:05:46 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:40:23
|
| RL history first records centaurs in ancient Greek mythology, probably arrived in the Aegean from older Mesopotamia, though there's some evidence they may have conceptually originated in "the hordelands" of central Asia (where they were portrayed as ultimate horseman soldiers of the steppe, not as sylvan elf wannabee sorts or D&Disney "party animals"). Mesopotomia also had urmahlullu, lion-men creatures which loosely resemble wemics (although feline centauroids are generally an invention of modern fantasy). |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:44:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
Dracons, as I recall. Never really had much use for them, myself. They're like a lizard-man/dinosaur blend. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 18:53:46
|
I think that if it ever came to unarmed combat, the wemics have a decided advantage, however I agree with the others who were saying that both sides will be using weapons, and therefore hoof/claw won't play much of a role. I don't care how sharp your claws are, if the other guy has a lance, you're not going to be killing anyone.
Markus has a good point about how centaurs make more sense as plains creatures, and that they might have moved into the forests for shelter at some point. Not sure where else to go with that, though, especially in something as cerebral as this conversation.
One of the tings I liked about the first Narian movie, and actually about the second as well, was how they handled the centaur combat. Especially the main centaur in the first movie. You really got a sense of why they could be considered the backbone of the Narnian army.
Oh, and Peter was riding a unicorn. Or rather, a white horse with a pidly little horn stuck to its forehead. Centaurs, the movie did a good job with. Unicorns, not so much. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:17:56
|
That was a Manicorn.
REAL Unicorns only let female virgins ride them.
Kinnaras are an early form of Centaur from Hindu folklore, and are possibly the first misrepresentation of nomadic (Asian) Horseman raiding into ancient India (which in-turn had cultural contact with ancient Greece, and the myths spread from there). Note the phoenetic similarity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:18:02
|
Claws not play a rle? Au contrare!! Remember, BOTH of these races have MULTIPLE attacks, not just the standard one or two of a human. Think "whole animal" here. A Wemic pouncing onto the back of a centaur to claw rake while stabing his upper half would be incredibly vicious. Do not underestimate the importance of using full attack actions- in 2nd ed, they naturally had 4 attacks (six using a pounce attack) with which to put the hurt on someone. Harder to do on a centaur, perhaps, but a very effective tactic, as it leaves them free to attack with ALL weapons (natural and held) from behind, with little resistance from the centaur's only real defense- it's upper half. In that respect, the centaurs would literally be cut to pieces. Yes, both sides will primarily use held weapons, but one has to consider the creature's natural weapons in the fight as well, at least in melee. Even from the front, a good swipe from the fore-legs of a rearing wemic could easily take out the centaur's upper body while its weapon parries his blade or club. But of course, the centaur could stomp on or batter at the wemic using the same rearing stance, but with less effect. Again, it comes down to training, weather, terrain, and morale more than anything. And while felines are naturally stealthy, lions are built more for plains, rather than forest dwelling. As a rule, they do not even climb trees like their feline cousins.
Hoondatha, was it Edmund riding the centaur, then? I remember someone did. Or was it in the second movie? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:22:14
|
A horse's rear kick is also extremely effective and far more powerful then the Lion-version's would be.
And because they are fairly well-balanced, I once again say 'it depends' - terrain, preparation, weaponery, etc... all play a major role (as does 'home field advantage' - both species are territorial). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:46:49
|
| It is a bit of a ridiculous question. It's like asking "who would win, 1000 Clerics or 1000 Wizards?" |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:41:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a spelljammer variant as well - something akin to a Tauric Draconian. There are also some racial-specific variants (Elf, dwarf, Gnome, and halfling), but AFAIK, none of them have entered FR canon.
Dracons, as I recall. Never really had much use for them, myself. They're like a lizard-man/dinosaur blend.
Dracons are a centaur-like race, with the lower body of a brontosaur, a humanoid torso, and a dragon-like head.
I always liked their "herd social mentality," though I've not really had an opportunity to use them in my SJ games. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Wemic's VS Centuar's
