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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 09:33:03
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Your theories about "animal" proto-illithids aren't fully compatible with the Illithiad lore, Markus. The book explains that the illithids themselves are uncertain about their own origins because their perception of time has a different emphasis from that of thralls; they see "adulthood" as being only another step towards their final (immortal) existence within the elder brain, they even see each elder brain as being only a single "neuron" or cell within a much greater supercerebral entity that spans all time and space. The "legends" and "traveller's tales" (like the one I described above) which speculate upon illithid origins are presented in such a way that their accuracy or completeness is questionable. They seem to agree only that the illithids emerged as fully formed (in the form we all recognize) from the Far Realms. The (very nasty) mind flayer gods may have ascended by implanting/supplanting the bodies of existing deities or by ancient elder brains somehow evolving psionically-constructed (or spontaneous) divine manifestations. (Illithids have good access to arcane and divine magics, plus the entire race shares an unwavering telepathically reinforced and unified faith.)
The histories of the gith races (as presented in various monster entries and planescape lore) suggest that the illithids were already humanoid tentacle faces during first contact. This is still inconclusive and debatable, though I'm inclined to follow the "conceptualization" of these two races as derived from Larry Niven's 1965-1966 story World of Ptavvs (and, to a much lesser extent, George R R Martin's 1978 book Dying of the Light) since these are the sources which inspired Charles Stross when he created the giths (published in 1979 White Dwarf #12, then in 1981 1E Fiend Folio) [interview]. The "biomorph leap to sentience" trope had already been expressed several times in the sci-fi of that era, yet it was never suggested in these books (it was never much of a popular idea anyhow, until presented several times in Star Trek).
There are also spelljammer histories in which illithids are described as being already active many millennia before they encountered the proto-gith Forerunners; some illithid ruins and artifacts (and elder brains and technologies) are apparently much older than the oldest remains left by the Forerunners and the giths. Illithids are even tangentially associated with the earliest Blackmoor stuff, whereas (to my knowledge) giths are not. Of course, the usual batch of cumulative errors and inconsistencies exist within all of this D&D canon, so it's all slightly suspect - though (outside of a little 2E stumbling when psionics first disappeared then were later reinvented) at least illithids and giths haven't (yet) been handwaved or retconned into something new they've always never been.
If the illithids evolved in the manner you suggest it would've been through contact with (non-Forerunner) time/space/planar travellers who foolishly ventured beyond the boundaries of the normal cosmos, because illithids quite definitely entered D&D fully formed. Mind flayers first appeared in D&D (published in 1975 The Strategic Review #1, then 1976 version of the OD&D "white box", then 1977 1E Monster Manual) as created by Gary Gygax, who claimed inspiration from the Lovecraftian cover art on Brian Lumley's 1974 Cthulhu Mythos book The Burrowers Beneath [wiki]. I would expect that any "earlier" or "lesser" illithid subtypes would've already been mentioned somewhere, anywhere, in D&D canon, at least within the Illithiad since it presents so many other origin theories. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 13:39:02 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 09:42:59
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MT, I did not mean that they did not exist before that- I was merely using the logic to explain why I don't believe the (IMO) farcical means of reproduction to be at all realistic. In other words, if that was their REAL means of reproduction, then they COULDN'T exist as a species, because there would have had to be a species to DO the infecting to begin with! I did not in any way intend it to mean that they did not suck brains to evolve sentience. In fact, I don't dispute that part at all- just the idea that they have no method of reproducing without a host body to allow them to mature. Obviously, if they are amphibious (and all the lore points to/says this) then they have a life-cycle of their own (they DO lay eggs!) There is no other D&D creature I know of where the infant form must infect another creature to grow. If they are like frogs, then they should simply mature over time in the pool into full illithids- which they did, according to the old MM flavor text. It's the host body part I call foul on- not their evolution into sentient beings. They may very well have been lowly creatures like the intellect devourer early on, and sucked an intelligent brain to gain sentience, but I DON'T think they did it through parasitic possession of other races. I just ignore that bit altogether, personally. No logic to it.
Also, using the Aliens as an analogy doesn't really work, IMO. They were BRED by the Predator race to be that way. A deliberate case of trying to create the "perfect prey" on the part of the Hunters, which got out of hand and escaped containment. That's a far cry from an ancient race that once held an entire world as slaves before hose slaves rebelled and became the Gith and Duergar races. The Aliens also have not gotten appreciably smarter, as they are still not capable of actual sentient thought. (Outsde of the queens, who are only borderline, at best.)
Regarding the demons- that's just pushing it beyond all believability. Illithids are not THAT ancient. They are old, yes, but not so old that they could cause the demons to become chaotic. Demons are MADE from chaos, for one thing. New ones are made from the very stuff of the Abyss itself, out of captured, corrupted, or bartered souls of those who end up there. The earliest demons were simply created as part of the plane, just as celestials were created to be part of their plane, etc. Illithids are just another of a hundred races claiming to be the oldest, when the truth is more likely that there IS not "oldest" race.
Blaming humans for their creation is like saying the dinosaurs caused their own extinction, IMO. Humans are supposed to be a relatively young race, in any case, and it seems that illithids were enslaving them from the very beginning of human origins. It could even be said that the ILLITHIDS were responsible for HUMAN evolution from simple primates, by experimenting and creating more intelligent slave/food races to do their work. My theory is that they are actually related to elder gods of one of the lower planes- I said it jokingly, but Cthulu is a very real possibility, given the odd resemblance. A race created in his own image, perhaps? And later usurped by an upstart "brain god"? That seems more likely, given the porliferation of gods who create their own "pet" races.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 09:47:23
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If the utterly bizarre (and disgusting) reproductive cycle of aliens originates on another world, then why should the reproductive cycle of beings from another cosmos make any sense at all in the "normal" world?
[Edit]
I've always thought the "Far Realms" at the border of the universe was something of an in-game gateway mechanism to let things slip between the D&D RPG and the undyingly popular Cthulhu-based RPGs. Cthulhu is just too big and scary and cosmic to be contained on any single (demi)plane.  |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 13:39:44 |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 14:43:11
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To Quote Arik: "If the utterly bizarre (and disgusting) reproductive cycle of aliens originates on another world, then why should the reproductive cycle of beings from another cosmos make any sense at all in the "normal" world?"
I have to agree with this train of thought, these beings reproductive cycle could be seemingly unimaginable! It would be like trying to figure out math problems in martian just after first contact. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
— H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:21:15
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| Be that as it may, I think the shift between editions was just too drastic. In the old text of 2nd ed MM they emerged from the pool fully formed. Compare that to the odd "Kahn-esque" method of sticking a tadpole in someone's ear. Somebody's seen WAAAYY too much Star Trek! (There was another incident in TNG where several of the crew were possess by some weird neck-burrowing parasite during a visit to Starfleet HQ, and began acting differently. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 17:45:36
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| Maybe mind flayers are just hungry versions of babel fish? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 19:04:26
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Factoid 1: The Illithids have 'come back' from some point in the future. Any arguments about 'appearances of illithids before their meeting with Gith' is therefor null and void. This also means that when they appeared 'fully formed' from the Far Realms, these could have been their descendants from that distant point in the future (and YES, they may have caused their own evolutionary leap to sentience that way).
Factoid 2: Humans (Homo sapiens) are FAR older in D&D then they are in RW - there were primitive humans on Toril when the Elves first arrived, and there is a short-story about civilized, magic-using humans set in -25,090 DR! (Realms of the Elves, "Traitors", by Richard lee Byers). Humans are one of the five Creator Races.
If my theoretical 'proto-illithids' lived in the Far Realms - where normal rules of time & space do NOT apply, then why couldn't a VERY early planer traveler (likely a Batrachi, now that I've put more thought into this) have discovered them and accidentally stimulated them into sentience? This didn't even need to be an 'instantaneous' thing - it could have taken millions of years. Since we know the D&D Illithids came from the future, it is entrely possible that that 'first contact' with the proto-illithids hasn't even happened yet!
And I actually have a canon example of what one of those theoretical proto-illithids would be like - the Neothelids! What if Neothelids (note the name, BTW - similar to 'neolithic') are what illithids are supposed to turn into? At some point in the distant past (or future, in this bizarre case), a sentient being was mixed into the normal life-cycle of the illithids and the first self-aware Mindflayer was born.
There is absolutely NOTHING in canon that contradicts this theory, because of their Far-Realmsian nature, and the time-traveling lore associated with them.
I read a SciFy story years ago in which a desperate spaceman created a new lifeform using DNA (mostly from a cat), and encoded into it an instinctive urge to evolve and be at a certain place at a certain time, and then ejected his 'new life' through a time-portal going back a million years or so.
When the 'baddies' arrived (some ugly, alien species probably out to eat his brains), a new portal opened in the space/time continuum and a race of highly-evolved cat-creatures appeared with an armada to destroy the aliens just in time (and hail him as their 'god'). Of course, he was in a LOT of trouble when he got back to Space headquarters (there are rules against this sort of thing, you know).
Now, as campy as that sounds (and would make a great plot for a Twilight Zone episode), I don't see why the logic behind that storyline couldn't be applied to the Illithids. What if they were specifically created near the beginning of time, so that when they evolved fully (after millions of years) they would travel back in time (as they did in canon) and accomplish whatever it is they were created to do? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 19:05:07 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 19:15:51
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lol, the big flaw in that theory is that it doesn't explain why the even more advanced suprallithids (who will have evolved into godlike creatures composed only of psionic energy tentacles) of the far, far distant future haven't come back in time to jumpstart today's illithids, let alone move farther back in time to supercede today's "inferior" illithids entirely (along with some creator races, while they're in the neighbourhood) with their own superior race?
Opening the time travel door even once means it stays open forever past and future. A tricky situation when you assume creatures are continuously evolving and have the capability of mucking around with their own evolutionary path.
I can't accept this theory as valid. Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is the most likely, ergo illithids originated in the Far Realms unless a simpler plausible explanation can be given.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 19:34:08
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I do think illithids evolved normally in the Far Realms.
However, as Allystra's line of reasoning brought to light, you CANNOT have a race that is dependent on other sentient species for its reproductive cycle to have evolved before they ever met such creatures.
SOMETHING had to be the first sentient creature that a neothelid ate.
And as to why the Suprallithids (I never even heard of those) haven't 'come back' to jump-start the current version of Illithids - who says any of them haven't?
Not that I think that, but it is possible.
What I do think is that whatever began the cycle that allowed illithids to become the Mindflayers of today, the Suprallithids dare not intefere too much with the past, which could change the timestream and alter their own future
Occam's Razor does apply - you do not go back in time and mess with your own past; this is a trope covered time and again in MANY Scify stories (and is why Frye is his own Grandpa). The Suprallithids have probably calculated the odds of them doing something that alters their own history, and therefor avoid doing anything more. The original group of Mindflayers that traveled back in time were supposed to do so, OR conversely, is what created the very future that sent them back, so that the beings OF that future would not want any more changes to occur. Its the 'Butterfly Effect' - you will probably just make things worse for yourself if you try to change your own past.
The current variation of history is NOT the correct one - we have this in canon (The sundering reached backwards and forwards in time and changed the world). No-one is going to want history changed again, because the next time around they might not even exist. Another canonical fact is that there are many races that were obliterated by the Sundering (so that they never even existed) - they weren't 'killed', they were simply 'erased'. Who in their right mind - and the Suprallithids are ALL mind - would want to take that chance? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 23:02:05 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 19:58:16
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| If your time-travel theory were to hold true, MT, they would not dare risk going back in the first place- the "Granny Paradox applies, just as it did in the Futurama episode you mentioned. The "Butterfly Effect" applies, as well, because even a small change could have drastically altered the time-line enought that they might not even be able to travel in time in the first place! (Which reminds me, the time-travel lore was presented as at "possible" origin- not absolute fact. It was subject to much speculation even when presented.) Thay could not have had it both ways. More likely, they evolved just like every other creature in the multi-verse. I just don't agree with the concpet of using another species as a vehicle for your own race's continuation. I simply prefer the older (and more reasonable and simple) idea of them coming out of the pools as full-formed (though possible smaller and weaker) Mindflayers, as was originally written. It's still cool enough to make them interesting, and it makes more sense. A squid does not need to latch onto someone's brain to grow up to be a nasty critter- it just needs to be intelligent enough to think for itself. The eating brains part is just icing on the cake. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:38:59
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The "border of time" thesis (and all the others) were presented as sidebars throughout the tome - deliberately - to suggest some likely possibilities but leave the question unanswered. TSR/WotC could've quite easily just conclusively stated "illithids evolved from bad magic" (or whatever) ... but they didn't. Which means they didn't want to lock themselves into a solid answer (or wanted to reveal it in some later product). I'm personally content to pick one of these "half-canon" theories over an entirely non-canon one.
FWIW, some of the unique illithid psionics (Collapse Time, Imprint Psionic Circuitry, Microcosm), technologies (Cephalometer, Exoskeleton, Series Psi-jammer Helms) and ... other cool stuff ... all suggest that illithids of tomorrow could indeed access time travel. In fact, there's a bit of time manipulation (of sorts) in the modules, taking place in an ancient imperial illithid city still populated with a few Forerunner slaves. There are illithid mages, liches, and vampires (suck brain fluids, lol), plus elder brains and other methods of "immortality". And did I mention they can suck memories/knowledge/skills/spells out of people's heads? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 20:43:36
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| Perhaps the illithids are an engineered race? That could neatly sidestep a lot of these issues... They might have even been designed with the intent of conquering other races by assimilation. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 22:59:06
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| The illithid life cycle doesn't strike me as any more implausible than that of real world rhizocephalans. It does mean that illithids would have had to evolve in the presence of some sort of potential host creature (just as the ancestral barnacles couldn't have evolved into rhizocephalans without there being crabs around to host them), of course. It could even be that like rhizocephalans the illithds are not true hermaphrodites, but that the males of the species are nonsapient parasites that use the female of their own species as a host. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Perhaps the illithids are an engineered race? That could neatly sidestep a lot of these issues... They might have even been designed with the intent of conquering other races by assimilation.
There's a section in The Illithiad which quotes the SPELLJAMMER accessory The Astromundi Cluster, and suggests that illithids are mutant humans, but then urgently refutes it, noting how different the two species are. I've always thought it best to consider this as a possible hint that the illithids may have been a purposely "mutated" race... [of, perhaps, a human-derived proto-species exposed to the uncertain spatial/temporal energies of the Far Realm] kinda like the Genoshan mutates from MARVEL COMICS. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 00:57:30
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| I do believe MT is correct on this one, at least as far as the neothelids go. I'd have to dig for the source (it could've been the Illithiad, but I remember the art being different and it could've been in Dungeon or Dragon), but unimplanted illithid tadpoles occasionally grow into the neothelids. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 18 Dec 2010 01:02:11 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 03:47:47
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| Or they could just as easily be 2nd ed Illithids that never fully matured into the present form, but instead became throw-backs to the Illithid fore-runner species. It could work either way, in that case. Still don't like that implanting idea, but I suppose it's possible, if they were mutated. Ah, well, to each his own, I suppose. I'll keep mine old-style, thank you. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 04:19:38
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| The Illithiad [pg. 95]:- "An illithid tadpole that fails to undergo ceremorphosis gradually grows into a neothelid--assuming it survives its first 100 years as a mindless slug eking out a living on subterranean vermin." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 04:27:23
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| Interestingly, the third-party Unveiled Masters source, states that the "neoleth" [the book's version of the D&D neothelid {given that they can't use the term "illithid"}] are an example of illethkin [the species of illithid detailed in the book] who "abandon the humanoid form altogether." These neoleth are still related to the illethkin, but instead, look very much like a giant worm. It's also stated that neoleths "are mutations, possibly caused by the tampering of the mind flayers with their reproduction over the millennia, or by exposure to the strange, preternatural forces at work in illeth cities." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 04:38:00
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The second explanation, I think, could be used to support Alystra's novel idea about the neothelids being some kind of illithid proto-race -- suggesting that whatever process was involved in the creation of the illithids, either hasn't entirely finished [and possibly hinting at a further future evolutionary form for the illithids], or is simply reflective of the uncertainties involved with exposing Prime-world genetic structures to the "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" philosophy of the Far Realm. In other words... any and all evolutionary forms -- regardless of where they fall on the illithid evolutionary ladder -- are possible at all times on the Prime Material Plane.
This plays upon an idea I've long held about the Far Realm being a sort of "ultimate genetic engineering lab" that would make even Mister Sinister or the High Evolutionary envious. I see the Far Realm as allowing every possible expression and every possible combination of every single life-form known to exist at every possible moment of an individual species' evolutionary history. So, to build on Alystra's earlier idea, maybe the neothelids represent that aspect of the illithid race. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 08:02:04
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Just my speculation here ...
The Far Realms are mutagenic, morphic, monstrous, incomprehensible, "cthonic" and inimical. Not chaotic (since chaos is a fundamental precept defined only within our universe), just organized (or disorganized) in some "other" manner that is entirely alien and anomalous to our cosmos. Whatever "genetic engineering" occurs from exposure to the Far Realms would be the result of the local "universe" attempting to adapt our order of life to survive within it's environment ... reshaping us to comply with local bylaws of physics. I suppose aberrations in our universe (illithids, aboleths, phaerimm, rust monsters, etc) are "mutated" to some halfway state, as alien to the Far Realms as they are to the Primes. Maybe illithids (and other aberrations) were actually ejected or "banished" from (or unable to survive in) the Far Realms because they're considered too human ...
Then again, being spawned in the infinite pits of the Abyss or through some demented magical experiment is just as good an explanation. Illithids seem too structured (on a "social" level) to have emerged from Limbo, though anything's possible.
Evolution through natural selection is not a path towards "superiority" but towards "adaptation". Every species that shares our world today is as fit to survive as we are. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Dec 2010 08:07:37 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 08:18:06
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That's an intriguing notion. And it kinda matches up with an alternate theory I have about the aboleths.
I don't think aboleths are the same now as they were when their ancestors first came from, or were exposed to, the Far Realm. They've gone native, like the illithids have, but they still show some pseudo-natural characteristics. Their distant relatives who still dwell Outside, if there are any, are probably very different both in appearance and behaviour -- probably they have none of the aquatic adaptations, for example, or understandable goals like conquest of the Underdark. Imagine an aboleth with all the fish parts taken out, which coats creatures with slime and grafts for apparently no reason at all. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Dec 2010 08:19:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 09:14:20
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Evolution - either as a natural process or by design - always leaves vestigial and "dormant" traits which once formed part of previous (or parallel) iterations.
Today's aberrations might actually be regressed "throwbacks", as only some of the more ancient and "less evolved" genomes or "dormant" traits from their species are robust enough to adapt to environmental conditions (including "compatibility" with genetic material of hosts) within our universe. Aboleths might be partially devolved back to their equivalent of aquatic origins, expressed as fishlike adaptations within our universe. Their perversely evil psychology might be an expression of the less sophisticated "fishy" or "reptilian" mental capacities of their ancestors, or even what might be judged (by their own "true" kind in the Far Realms) as "autistic" or "insane". We would be as alien and unnatural to the Far Realms as they are to us, intermediate aberration species would be strange and repulsive to both worlds. Assuming the orders of life in the two universes can even manifest in forms recognizable to each other without using some kind of intermediate "aberration" as a conduit.
Illithids might be as feared and threatening in the Far Realms as they are here, having perfectly normal (even beautiful) psionic rubbery tentacle faces attached grotesquely hideous humanoid bodies. The Far Realms ancestors of illithids might be more Cthulhu-like indeed. Of course they might all be malign and hostile, too, or maybe as varied (in their own ways) as we are but only the more bold and aggressive individuals make any attempt to cross the boundary between universes. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Dec 2010 09:17:14 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2010 : 19:07:44
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I think planar beings have a lot to fear if the theories of cerebromorphosis are true. If the mindflayers turn their collective minds towards conquering the planes outside the primes they could have turned themselves into far more powerful creatures then they are now IF cerebromorphosis is compatible with the corporeal bodies of fiends. Fiendish 'flayers would likely enable the race to add the multiple 'evolutionary' stages that demons and devils have. For example; a low intelligence cerebromorphed mare with enough collected soul energy could theoretically upgrade his corporeal form into a babau, ending eventually in a psionic squid headed balor.
Luckily the 'faith' of mindflayers prevents them from wanting immortality in corporeal form, preferring merging with the brainpool of the Illithid overmind. So the fiendsih races are not desirable to illithids, despite their superior intelligence compared to most humanoid hosts on the prime material planes. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 00:44:04
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Assuming the bodies of fiends (or celestials) can serve as hosts. A problem for the illithids would be the great essence of evil (good) their fiendish (celestial) blood brings; even diluted tieflings (aasimar) are profoundly influenced by their parentage. Another problem is that the illithids would become at least partially vulnerable to things like summonings and bindings. A third problem is that they'd get dragged into the Blood War.
As DM, I would feel awfully guilty sicking a "Balorthid" or "Maralithid" against my players, let alone an entire community of the things. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 00:47:50
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| Hah! Marilithid. Brilliant. You're a big softy Arik. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 01:07:18
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According to The Illithiad, only a few races are compatible with illithid tadpoles. Humans and the gith races, of course, and elves and drow and orcs -- they all produce standard mind flayers. Gnomes and dwarves are immune for some reason. Most nonhumanoid or less humanoid races don't work, but the aberration types like ropers can sometimes be used to create strange hybrids. Basically, as Bruce Cordell designed it, there were illithids and then there were entirely weird things with the minds of illithids and completely different shapes, and that was it [not counting variants like ulitharids and alhoon, which have different explanations].
Then there was a DRAGON article that introduced lizardmen, gnomes and a variety of other creatures who had undergone ceremorphosis. It explained that fungi and a variety of other techniques were used to make these normally incompatible races compatible. The 3e Fiend Folio uses that DRAGON article as inspiration, and includes an illithid lizardfolk. The Fiend Folio doesn't mention any limitations except that only humans can be used to create standard 'flayers, and the half-illithid template is limited to humanoids. I think it's more interesting if drow mindflayers and githyanki mindflayers get to keep some of the abilities of their "form donors," but perhaps another template is in order for nonhumanoid hosts.
Still, I think letting a mindflayer use any old thing as a host kind of cheapens the process. I wouldn't let aarakokras and pegasi ceremorph, but some sort of exotic flying aberration like a mooncalf [from the 3e MMII] might work for a treat.
The explanation is that illithids were originally created by foolish humans or gith forerunners -- or elder elves, or reigar, or something else fairly close in shape and size -- exploring the Far Realm and coming back implanted. Since those are the beings they first bonded with, those are the type of beings they bond with now, and the only other type of creatures they're compatible with are things that are very much like themselves. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 01:13:04
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I think it'd be a gamebreaker. A "marilithid" would be a domineering cruel mind-eating thing with 6 arms, 6 tentacles, über psionic powers, and the ability to gate in more of it's kind. A "succulithid" would entice with seductive beauty, then in the tentacled-embrace of passion it would blast your mind, suck your brain out, level drain you, haul your body off to feed the "elder pit brain" ... not to mention what it might do with your screaming soul ... and, well, ewwww. A "nycolithid" or "gelugithid" would be horrifying beyond description. A "devathid" or "archonithid" would be equally fearsome. A "modronthid" is perhaps beyond my ability to imagine, though a big rubbery tentacle-faced "slaadithid" seems pretty straightforward.
I think the local planars would oppose any such intrusion if it had the potential to become threatening. As would their leaders and whatever powers reside on those planes.
Less ambitious but still rewarding illithid evolution might be achieved by moving away from wimpy humanoids to giants and giant-kin. Giants are excellent bigdumbs. Gotta say a 20' tall "frost-illithid" is a nasty opponent (let alone a "titanithid"). Even the two-headed "ettinthids" and one-eyed "cyclothids" would be awesome.
[Edit]
Aquatic and amphibian hosts (like lizardmen) seem quite natural to me, I'm not surprised to see them suggested as "compatible". It opens the door to all sorts of reptilian illithids; saurials, dragonborn, etc. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings all have good constitutions and various tough resistances, and besides they're all insultingly short; illithid psychology is a bit arrogant. I wonder if mind flayers can suffer lycanthropy, become "lycothids" or "were-flayers" or whatever.
Sage - can ye remember which Dragon issue, or the name of the article? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Dec 2010 01:31:59 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 04:31:21
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| How about a halfling-illithid? We could call them halfthids, or knee flayers! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 04:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The explanation is that illithids were originally created by foolish humans or gith forerunners -- or elder elves, or reigar, or something else fairly close in shape and size -- exploring the Far Realm and coming back implanted. Since those are the beings they first bonded with, those are the type of beings they bond with now, and the only other type of creatures they're compatible with are things that are very much like themselves.
I like that explanation... Particularly the reigar. They'd certainly be crazed enough to do something dangerous like that! |
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Ilithids
