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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 19:28:22
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Wikipedia says about them
quote:
Such was their might that the Blood War paused as the demons and devils considered a truce to deal with the illithid empire
Does anyone know if this is confirmed by some cannon lore? If so they would have been the mightiest powergroup and I don't see how the Gith could have bring them to fall. Even if, then the Gith would have been the mightiest power group after it if there hadn't been their civil war.
I find this very hard to believe...
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 19:49:44
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I do know that githyanki hunted the illithids to near extinction.
Public wikis statements are always dubious unless they cite proper sources. Moroever, the writing often pulls quoted passages out of their original context or attempts to add style which only adds embellishment. This quote might refer to the Blood War being paused in some small region, or some author's/narrator's attempt to convey emphasis.
The histories described in the Monstrous Arcana books (The Illithiad; and A Darkness Gathering, Masters of Eternal Night, Dawn of the Overmind) never mention anything of this sort. The planescape lore I've read (thus far) has indicated that the Blood War does not even stop for gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 20:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Wikipedia says about them
quote:
Such was their might that the Blood War paused as the demons and devils considered a truce to deal with the illithid empire
Does anyone know if this is confirmed by some cannon lore? If so they would have been the mightiest powergroup and I don't see how the Gith could have bring them to fall. Even if, then the Gith would have been the mightiest power group after it if there hadn't been their civil war.
I find this very hard to believe...
Actually, it's an almost literal quote from the 2E Planescape supplement A Guide to the Astral Plane, p. 44 : "Even the fiends paused in their eternal Blood War long enough to determine if the illithids would attack the Lower Planes as well."
Please note that the War did not actually come to a halt. Just a pause to see if the illithid threat was worth ganging up for.
There are other canon (in the Planescape line, at least) instances of Baatezu and tanar'ri joining forces: (to fight off the first incursion of the Celestials; and the negotiations at the Ghoresh Chasm (which did involve an actual truce). |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 08:28:27
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| Well there is (or at least should be in my opinion) a diffrence between Ilithids and Celestials. But thanks for the info, although this suprises me a lot. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 15:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well there is (or at least should be in my opinion) a diffrence between Ilithids and Celestials. But thanks for the info, although this suprises me a lot.
Well, it depends on how you view things. I've always accepted this in my "history of the multiverse", and assumed that, although the celestials are, blow for blow, more powerful than an illithid, the illithids did not rely on their own strengths, but rather on the strengths of their thralls (which could have included dragons, and powerful prime material monsters; in my "HotM", this also led to their downfall, when they bred/created ever more powerful thralls, and then lost control over them). Second, the illithids dominated the prime material plane, which, by that time, the fiends needed as a source for larvae and other future proto-fiends. So, the illithids controlled the main recruitment ground for new fiends.
In addition, the stated text does not say that the illithids were, objectively speaking, more powerful, only that the fiends paused to see if they would come under attack( it's not that difficult to imagine the fiends having a go at each other for untold aeons, then all of a sudden noticing the illithids rapidly spreading on the Prime Plane (rapidly by fiend standards, anyway), and being an unknown factor. If I, as a fiend, saw that happening (imagine a swarm of ants appearing all of a sudden at your feet), I'd also probably go "WTFH", and stop whatever I was doing to assess the new threat. And, in canon, that's all they did. Take a breather, and assess the threat.
This said, an illithids (or a small pack of them) are actually very tough opponents in 2E (not sure how tough in 3E and beyond): 90% magical resistance, extremely mobile (psionic teleport, plane shift), and with at least one powerful attack form (mind blast, at will) which, if you accept that it is psionic in nature, bypasses magic resistance. Mechanically speaking, a small, well-coordinated band of illithids is more than a match for even a pit fiend or a balor. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 20:18:15
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| 1E fiends had fair psionic abilities, too. Handwaved into "magical abilities" in 2E. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 20:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
1E fiends had fair psionic abilities, too. Handwaved into "magical abilities" in 2E.
There were a lot of 1E psionic abilities that got changed with the flip to 2E. It wasn't until later on that 2E got psionic rules, and they were more of a bolt-on than anything else. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2010 : 23:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
1E fiends had fair psionic abilities, too. Handwaved into "magical abilities" in 2E.
There were a lot of 1E psionic abilities that got changed with the flip to 2E. It wasn't until later on that 2E got psionic rules, and they were more of a bolt-on than anything else.
Indeed. And Ed talks a little about this in past replies here at Candlekeep -- specifically, about the older "wild talents" that were fostered in the early Realms during the days of 1e. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 04:43:02
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Not much to add directly, save for my own theories (based, in-part, own some of Ed's writings).
Using magic requires tremendous willpower and mental discipline. Wizards need to study their spells repeatedly to memorize the precise 'pattern' that will unlock the magic (true Vancian magic, anyway). Priests, on the other hand, have these 'magical patterns' (basically 'keys' to unlock certain features built-into the universe) placed within their minds directly, which alleviated the need for them to study as Wizards do. Both are pretty-much doing the same thing, but priests exchange a little lip-service to the gods for laziness.
Psionicists do not need these 'keys' (magical patterns memorized) - they can literally 'see' the forces of the universe around them, and tap-into them. There is an energy-pattern that permeates EVERYTHING (its called 'The Weave' in FR, 'The Force' in SW, etc  ), and they simple 'reach-out' (with their minds) and make changes to the pattern, which affects the reality itself.
On the other hand, I think Sorcerers are the most under-appreciated and misunderstood group. Elminster is a Sorcerer (despite whatever canon might say). A Sorcerer is a person with just enough psionic talent to be able to 'see' the forces around them (like a psion), BUT he can discern the pattern necessary to make changes (to reality) by trial and error. He does not study as as a Wizard does, or beg for spells (as Vangerdehast puts it) from 'the gods', nor even uses his shear force of Willpower to overcome the natural patterns as does a psion; he is a hybrid-caster that uses latent mental abilities to discover the 'keys'* he uses 'on-the-fly'. He is close to The Bard in many ways - it is his (or her) tenacity, creativity, and insightful 'natural talent' that allows him to discover what others must learn from dusty old tomes (or gods).
This is why Illithids are so dangerous - they are considered by most intelligent species to be the undisputed masters of psionics (the Aboleths may see it differently), and by studying humans and other mortal races (usually by eating their brains) they learn a bit about Arcane magic, which is not something they are naturally familiar with. Illithids minds do not gravitate toward seeing the world beyond just themselves, which is their biggest handicap. They use their powerful 'gifts' to ensnare others, and manipulate the world around them on a very local, limited level. Now, if a sorcerer, who has just an 'inkling' of psionic ability coupled with a savant-like genius for detecting 'hidden secrets', can wield magic to great affect, then how much more dangerous can Illithids become if they ever mastered Arcane magic?
And some do try... Ioulaum found that by merging with an Elder brain, the psionic abilities would magnify his magic exponentially (seriously - why else would someone like him do something like that?) Also, Ed discusses the Insipid Clans in SotM - people with a small amount of latent psionic talent who have a truly amazing magical potential. And then there is Elminster - its not by coincidence that he doesn't need to study spell-books; most folks tend to forget he is also a psionicist. The combination of psionics and magic add-up to something far greater then the sum of its parts: This is the true 'secret of the gods', and what sets them apart - they have unlocked those parts of their minds that allow them to manipulate the forces of the universe directly - the are the 'ultimate Sorcorers'.
And I have a feeling that Spellfire is also related to this - that s just another example of a natural, latent (and hereditary!) talent that allows a person to bypass the normal rules and restrictions set on magic.
Now imagine Illithids with Spellfire... 
Its small wonder they gave the Fiends pause - if the Demons weren't so damn chaotic - and unable to harness their abilities effectively through discipline - they'd be capable of the same. Baatezu have the discipline, but not 'the gift' (at least, not most - that would be reserved for the Archdevils). Fiends are aware of what the Illithids could potentially become - a race of gods. I think the Fiends may be aware of what the 'great destiny' hinted at is all about, and what part the Illithids will play in the fate of the universe.
BTW, this may also be what the Imaskari were striving towards, but most lacked the latent psionic abilities to unlock these 'deep secrets'. Halaster, on the other hand.......
*I say 'keys' to indicate those 'Arcane, mystical patterns' that Vancian Wizards must memorize. Although we use the term 'Vancian' in homage to Jack Vance, who made this style of magic famous, it is used in MANY works of fiction, and is a common theme in fantasy and folklore. I borrow the term 'Keys' from Planescape, which first gave me the idea - I merely extend it a bit further. In Planescape, the most common 'Key' was one for a Gate/Portal, BUT there were 'Keys' that were able to allow beings to ignore certain rules of the plane they were in as well. I theorize that these 'keys' are like the 'underlying code' of the universe - they are 'back-doors' that are normally reserved for 'the gods' and their ilk, but mortals have become aware of them and make use of some of them (like Spells).. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2010 04:44:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 04:59:19
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Some psionic oddities from the 1E DMG:
Ioun Stone
(dull gray, any shape/type; burned out, useless, "dead" stone), "adds 10 points to psionic strength total, 50 maximum points."
Sphere of Annihilation
"A psionic using the probability travel discipline when the sphere touches him or her will be able to do away with the sphere, and has a 50% chance of gaining another major psionic power, if he or she succeeds in saving versus magic; failure indicates annihilation." |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2010 05:01:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 05:10:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Ed discusses the Insipid Clans in SotM - people with a small amount of latent psionic talent who have a truly amazing magical potential.
I believe you meant Incipient Clans. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 13:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Ed discusses the Insipid Clans in SotM - people with a small amount of latent psionic talent who have a truly amazing magical potential.
I believe you meant Incipient Clans.
What's SoTM? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2010 : 14:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Ed discusses the Insipid Clans in SotM - people with a small amount of latent psionic talent who have a truly amazing magical potential.
I believe you meant Incipient Clans.
What's SoTM?
Secrets of the Magister, another wonderful tome of Ed-lore. It specifically focuses on the many Magisters of Mystra and their magic.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 01:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Ed discusses the Insipid Clans in SotM - people with a small amount of latent psionic talent who have a truly amazing magical potential.
I believe you meant Incipient Clans.
Yeah... that. 
I should have looked it up - I just KNEW that sounded odd.
Or maybe I was referring to a different group - one that is so utterly boring that Magisters have been working toward making them at least mildly amusing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2010 01:16:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:39:31
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While looking for something completely unrelated, I came across this -
quote:
From How the Mighty Have Fallen
The illithid and the phaerimm are working together to bring down the Netherese people. Still, there's a certain amount of distrust between the races. The phaerimm have heard a rumor that illithids are merely mutated humans who've undergone severe physical changes because of their diet. Apparently, early humans thrown into the Underdark were forced to feed upon whatever they found, and one such food creature was the intellect devourer. If this is true, a human can become an illithid simply by consuming an intellect devourer; is it possible to reverse this
change?
Of course, that was just from the 'Rumors and Hooks' section, but I found it interesting and related to the discussion.
The part about the illithids once having been human is weird - I don't think i would go that route at all. We know that all the Gith-variants were once human, so it would also be a bit redundant (and could also be how this rumor was started - that part may actually be related to their Gith slaves). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2010 20:42:16 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 20:48:05
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| I think it is based on the Lords of Madness 3.5 book, the section on illithids in it suggested that they reproduced by using human slaves as hosts for their tadpole offspring. I never bought into that line myself- it just doesn't make sense when referenced to the older ecology and society bits in the 2nd ed MM. I think someone just decided to embelish their reproduction with their own ideas. Feel free to ignore that "rumor". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 21:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think it is based on the Lords of Madness 3.5 book, the section on illithids in it suggested that they reproduced by using human slaves as hosts for their tadpole offspring. I never bought into that line myself- it just doesn't make sense when referenced to the older ecology and society bits in the 2nd ed MM. I think someone just decided to embelish their reproduction with their own ideas. Feel free to ignore that "rumor".
Can't be. How the Mighty Are Fallen was a 2E product.
The 2E Illithiad does describe the tadpole in the brain method for creating new illithids. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 21:36:05
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| The Illithiad has them reproduce by turning humanoid slaves into illithids; basically the tadpole-thing eats the brain and turns the head into a tentacle-face as it matures. I suppose mind flayers are a little picky about the "quality" of the slaves/bodies they use for this purpose. It's not specified, but I think any humanoid will suffice, not just humans. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 21:51:46
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Illithiad- maybe that was where I saw it, though I thought it was in LoM. Wooly, I never read that one; have no idea what source you're talking about. I was referring to the material in the 3.5 book and the flavor text from 2nd ed MM. Can't mention or refer to sources I don't have! Did not like that illithid stuff, BTW- I've never really cared for them anyway, but it just seemed too far-fetched, like putting a new "head' on a creature makes it something else..... 
Arik, that is precisely the material I was talking about. Which leads to the obvious question that if that were true, how do they reproduce AT ALL?!  The body is still basically the same, according to that source, so.... All reproductive capabilities SHOULD still belong to the former race!! Um, how does that make an illithid again?! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 22:42:25
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The Illithiad explains their life cycle as
1) Hermaphroditic illithids spawn twice in their life by despositing a sticky clutch of (about a thousand) eggs into the telepathic "brain pool" which contains the community's elder brain. The elder brain might (in times of desperation) spontaneously form an egg clutch within the pool. Adult illithids regularly feed the pool by depositing an allowance of yummy nutritious brains and brainmeal.
2) These eggs hatch and grow into 4-tentacled squidlike tadpoles; they live in the pool for about 10 years (where they are telepathically linked to the elder brain, and thus begin to learn all the preserved knowledge of the community). They suffer predation from the elder brain, each other, and even adult illithids; about 1 in every 1000 survive. Some rare variant illithids are formed by especially cunning tadpoles who survive and elude capture for up to 20 years.
3) The fittest of these survivors are selected for ceremorphosis. They are basically inserted into the ear of a humanoid victim (or one unfortunate enough to be submersed within the pool); they borrow into his brain, consume it, meld with his uneaten brain stem, and change the host's anatomy (and head) to become that of an illithid. A lot of disgusting ichor and mucous is involved.
4) Adult illithids use extreme care in their selection of hosts for tadpole implantation. Only certain races are compatible, and only the healthiest specimens from their slave pits. They raid the underdark/surface to cull only the very best stock. Criteria:
Acceptable - humans, elves (and drow), giths, grimlocks, gnolls, goblins, orcs; many other humanoids (weight 130-270lb, height 5'4"-6'2").
Unacceptable - halflings, dwarves (and derro, duergar), gnomes, centauroids, giants, kuo-toa.
All remnants of the victim's mind, personality, and spirit are destroyed. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection and similar magics cannot bring him back.
Some illithids suffer from an illness called "partialism"; an incomplete sublimination of the original brain. Scraps of desire, emotion, motivation, memory, or mannerism from the host sometimes manifest subconsciously in the adult illithid. More rarely, a complete host memory complexus or partial personality capable of individual thought and action might survive intact. Such "tainted" illithids are easily recognized by their community and must "purify" or "correct" themselves by removing the partialism (through psionic surgery or cruder methods). Illithid legends tell of illithids lost to themselves, consumed by the indomitable "adversary" personalities of their hosts; these are outcast and entirely unfit to join the elder brain.
5) Dying or dead illithids are dissolved into the pool so that they can join the elder brain, which grows in power as it absorbs all their knowledge and experiences. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 04:40:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 04:14:49
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Its NOT just the head - that's where it starts. The tadpole eats the brain, taking-over the nervous and autonomic processes as well, and causing the body to 'mutate' into that of an illithid. Basically, once the brain has been replaced with the tadpole, the Illithid DNA begins to re-write it's host's DNA.
They are the biological equivalent of The Borg.
"We are the Illithid, resistance is futile, prepare to be illithiated".
Which now reminds me of a weird-yet-interesting story in Writers of the Future, wherein nanites and nanomes (one robotic, the other biological) battle it out, using the host's (a human) body as a battlefield.
And I still think Eberron is the size of a marble, and warforged are really just Nanobots!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 04:18:14 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 05:37:34
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| Yeah, I just found that explaination extremely hard to swallow, if you'll pardon the pun, even for a fantasy setting. How does eating the brain overwrite the host's DNA? Not other creature I'm aware of does this. The closest I can think of is the ochre zombie (I think that's the right name) made from an ochre jelly, but it does so by slowly replacing the host with it's own substance, and the host in no way retains any of it's former mental capabilities, and even its physical ones are severely decreased. The spawn of Kyusk(sp?) is another similar one, but again, it replaces the entire body, not just the brain and nervous system. I do not see how the latter method could possibly lead to a complete change in both gender and species. Makes no sense, even if using the "nanite" reasoning, since it only attacks a specific portion of the host body. And of course it also brings about a related question- if that were the case, how did the original illithids come about? Somehow, I don't think that there were that many folks wandering in the Underdark eating intellect devourers! Llike even a starving person would do that, considering that they're not much more than a brain with legs.) It just rings kinda false, especially when one considers their inherently superior attitude toward all other races- would they act that way knowing they CAME from those same races? That sounds fishy to me. (Again, pardon the pun.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 06:13:45
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Illithids are squid-faced psionic aberrations. The Illithiad also does not say anything about altering the host's DNA/etc, only that the head/brain is transformed and the rest of the body/anatomy is sufficiently changed to meet the "norm" for illithid monster type. The fact that some fragments of the original mind can sometimes continue to exist (in a darkly insane, tormented, confused state) suggests that the body retains some of its original "ownership" as well (nervous twitches, motor control, muscle memory) ... you might see an illithid unconsciously twirl his dagger, juggle small objects, practice coin tricks, or unknowingly go through the somatic components of spells his body spent years learning.
Nobody has problems accepting Ripley's aliens partially morphing people and creatures with their aberrant biochemical ichor. Illithids don't have to make sense, just run away when you see them coming. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 06:15:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 06:33:18
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| LOL!! Funny. It was the body being altered that struck me as dumb. I really don't see how a basically genderless body can even generate the possibility of reproduction. Being hermaphroditic means that either they would have to fertilize each other, (and then lay eggs, which no mammal species can do!!! Platapi not included for this, as it is a different sort of egg...) or would have to fertilize themselves, which would effectively make them all clones. Not a good way to perpetuate any species, considering their already low infant survival rate. Too small a gene pool, really. One good plague would wipe them all out, in that case, as there is not enough genetic diversity to ensure survival of even a few. The whole idea stinks for a number of reasons, which is why I think it was just tacked on for a "kewl" factor, rather than thought out as a viable method of increasing/maintaining numbers. And since squids in nature "spawn", even the egg laying isn't accurate! (Unless they're "doing it" by erm, squirting into each other in the brain pool- eewwww!!!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 06:52:30
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The implantation is probably carried out in the brain pool, like all of the other important/ceremonial things the illithid do.
I tend to agree this "medical" explanation was probably done for Kewl Skary Monster purposes. Mind flayers do manage to thrive in the underdark and constantly war against the giths ... they're a pretty tough race. They've also got a number of unique (and potent) psionic powers, eidetic recall of everything any member of the community (dead or alive) has ever experienced, impressive artifacts made from a sort of crystal/ichor/psionic technology, and even brain golems (I kid ye not). They probably originate from Outside, the Far Realms - one brief tale told by a chronomancer describes how illithids were once-human travellers altered by incomprehensible forces at the edge of time. They can suffer from a psionic disease called "the ashen", and their pools can be infested with psionic parasites.
There are a few DaVinci-style diagrams of illithid anatomy; one of these shows internal organs within the abdomen which are decidedly not standard issue for humanoids. Both pictures cleverly obscure the reproductive organs and make it impossible to even determine if the illithid have any semblance of gender. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:13:27
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Well, if we factor-in that they are aberrations, and probably originated in the Far Realms (or are from a pre-existent universe), then we have to assume that they did NOT reproduce initially by injecting humans with their eggs/tadpoles.
IF they evolved on their own, which seems likely, then the ability to inject their un-fertilized offspring into another creature to become something else must have been something necessary to their survival early-on.
I don't think the illithids became mindflayers until MUCH further into their development. They were probably a fairly simple psionic lifeform (similar to intellect devourers, but more squid-like) that fed-off (and bred-off) some native creatures, which kept them in a fairly pimitive state. Then one day one of them encountered a human, or some other Sentient lifeform, and PRESTO! All of a sudden they became sentient themselves, and liked it. In fact, it may have even been an encounter with a planeswalking race known as the Gith.
The Gith may have even taken them on-board their ships at first, to study, or just to keep as oddities in their zoos, and one thing lead to another, and the prey became the predators (SciFy is rife with that, but there are a couple of Fantasy examples out there). So in a way, the Gith may have been the sentient race responsible for the illithids sudden evolution. If they had the ability to eat brains and learn from them (as a natural defense-mechanism evolved on their strange, alien world), and only ate other 'animals', all they would ever have picked-up before was some fairly primitive survival techniques. Once they got a taste of 'the good stuff', that's all they ever wanted. Illithids are not natural creatures (in the normal sense), and perhaps the only way they can 'learn' is by devouring others.
Since they can learn from almost any other creature, and even learn to duplicate those creature's abilities (there are some beholder-hybrids as well), then the illithids could actually be the most dangerous race in the universe! They really are The Borg of Fantasy.
So what happens when they eat an archfiend, or god?
And don't say its not possible, because time-and-again we have seen illithid-crossbreeds that shouldn't be possible, according to their MM entries. Illithids are constantly EVOLVING, depending upon their diets, and what may not be possible for one group living on greyhawk may be entirely possible for another group living in the realms, or Krynn.
I personally think the Krakentoa were a failed attempt of illithids to cross with titans.
And I'm trying now to imagine some sort of connection between the Batrachi and the illithids, but I'm just not seeing it, despite physical similarities. Maybe it was a Batarchi, and not a Gith, that boosted illithid evolution by becoming a meal. Batrachi were known planeswalkers (the oldest Gates on toril were built by them), so it makes some sense that they discovered the Far Realms and one of them decided to 'pet' the wrong cute little creature on the other side.
Which, come to think of it, ties into some of my Imaskari musings rather well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 07:28:10
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There's just one problem with that, MT. The illithids inadvertently created the Gith from humans, not the other way around. All Gith (yanki/zarai/etc.) were once slaves of the illithids in ancient times, who evolved their own psi abilities due to experimentations by the illithid masters on their servants. So the Gith could not have "discovered the illithids. That's canon.
Incidentally, most of those hybrids were part of experiments in breeding better slaves, not illithid evolution. There is an excellent article on cults in a Dragon issue that first brought illithid grafts into use. This may be where those creatures came from. It contained a PrC for a cultist of the elder brain that allowed a PC to take on illithid characteristics and abilities. I suspect someone took the idea and ran with it when they wrote up that bit of illithid reproductive lore. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:09:52
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Little is known of the ancestral proto-Giths, beyond being called the Forerunners and probably originating at a world called Pharagos; usually described as (or assumed to be) human or human-like (possibly with pointed ears and a strong streak of reptilian blood). Some Forerunners are briefly detailed in the Monstrous Arcana modules. (My interest in illithids is based on my interest in Giths, here's another plug for my scroll about The Gith Races.)
Alystra ... which Dragon writing has this illithid-graft lore? I'm not so sure your suspicion is valid: the 2E Illithiad lore predates the 3E PrC game mechanic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:43:20
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I don't remember the exact issue number, but the article was about secret cults of aberrations and other dark threats. It had PrC's for an illithid cult, a beholder cult, and even one for the Tarrasque. (That PrC was called "Waker of the Beast", if it helps.) It mentioned the graft experiments in the one for illithids, and is the first mention of that that I was aware of. The Illithid lore I mentioned earlier was from 3.5 ed- I was not aware that it had been done in 2nd, but I will certainly hunt it down now. However, it might have been the issue that had the beholder on the cover, and had some stuff on lycanthropes and beholder items, as well. IIRC. Most of my issues are boxed ATM.
And now that I think on it, it is possible they culled some lore from the earlier book when writing that article. And the stuff you had earlier about the reproduction sounds suspiciously like what I read, as well. It was indeed in the Lords of Madness book that I saw that part- I just looked it up again in my pdf collection. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 08:44:10
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BUT, I was talking about the illithids, NOT the Illithids!
As in, the pre-Mindflayer, Intellect-devourer like creature from some 'Far Realmsian' world. Such a creature HAD TO exist, by your own arguments Allysra - how can a creature who's entire reproductive system is based on injecting humans ever have come-about in the first place, before they ever met any humans?
Its the chicken and the egg all over again.
Just as some ancient primate picked-up a thigh-bone and bashed some other critter's head in (and thus created the first 'tool', which lead to civilization), some ugly little tentacled monstrosity must have sucked on the wrong (or right) brain, and the intelligence of that other creature caused spontaneous sentience in the until-then bestial brain of the illithid.
What the Gith may have found was NOT Mindflayers - they were the proto-illithids that had some primitive psionic powers and a unique ability to breed by bonding with a host (similar to how the Aliens breed in the movie of the same name). Nothing in-canon negates this possibility.
It could have been anyone - even Beholders or Neogi - all it took was that first 'spark' of awareness to set them on their brain-eating path to imperial conquest.
What I am saying is that I think it would be cool if the Gith inadvertently caused the illithids to turn into Mindflayers (after they got a hold of a couple of yummy Gith brains). Perhaps it was something unique about human physiology that caused this metamorphosis - they may have always eaten brains, but it was the human ones that granted them sentience. Whatever the reason, it was at that point that the Illithids that we know came-about. It may not have been the gith, but it was most likely humans, because it is canon that their is something about humans that makes their strange reproductive cycle possible (or rather, more possible, since periodically they are able to create other variants). I only suggest the Gith, because we know that race was human, and had a very early involvement with them.
For instance, take the Aliens movies again, the one where it fights the predators. The Aliens have an almost animal-level intelligence (probably be classified as 'beasts' in D&D), and the forms they take are slightly different dependent upon what they 'mate' with. When they do so with a predator, they created the Predalien - which was an amazingly good fighter compared to the others (it had picked-up some of the a good predator DNA along the way). It was something BRAND NEW. Although the aliens had always existed, there is no reason why they can't evolve into higher forms simply by breeding with higher beings.
Like my theory about the illithids, at some point the aliens must have been animals on some other world, who had a unique way of reproducing (using other species as their 'females'). So long as they fed off the animals on their homeworld, they would never become more then what they were - highly evolved parasites. However, some sentient race (probably the predators) landed on their world, gotten 'impregnated', and they achieved a primitive form of sentience. Still not smart-enough to build their own space-vessels, they spread throughout the universe by sneaking aboard other race's ships and then taking-out the crew (which they have learned, over time, NOT to kill all of them, else they get 'stuck' in space). Riley probably ran into a fairly primitive bunch who lost control and stupidly ate the entire crew.
Thus, there had to have been some first sentient creature that set-off the chain reaction which lead the bestial proto-illithids to their climb to sentience. They could NOT have been what they are before meeting humans which allow them to become what they are. Like I said, any race would do for this, but humans make the most sense, and the Gith are just a handy scapegoat.
And how much more vile does it become for the Gith, knowing they were enslaved by creatures they themselves once considered 'animals'? It adds a whole 'nother level of coolness to the mythos.
for all we know, those proto-illithids could have evolved on the same world as the Aboleths - perhaps there is an entire 'Far Realm' out there somewhere where every creature has some small psionic ability. It could be the illithids caused the Abolethic evolution, or vice-versa.
Maybe that how demons became Chaotic!
Supposedly they were just like devils at some point (or elementals, whatever - probably like Djen). What if illithids attempted to breed with them? What if that attempt lead to the creation of the demons (bringing a bit of the Far Realms psuedo-naturalness into the material plane). The devils/Elementals became 'corrupted' by the chaos of the illithids, but instead of producing super-illithids (as intended), it created an entire new breed of fiend who wanted nothing to do with the illithids (but still retained some of their aberrational traits, including psionics).
I suppose you could take this all the way, and blame illithids for every psionic creature that exists, which in-turn are the direct result of contact with humans. Maybe the humans being the 'race of destiny' isn't such a great thing after all. If we sparked the illithids own evolution, we could be indirectly responsible for the end of the Universe. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2010 08:49:56 |
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Ilithids
