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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:50:54
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For those who haven't yet read or seen Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths, here's a little info.
So what if.... Toril has multiple copies (hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands) scattered across the vast Multiverse; there's Toril Prime which if destroyed would also mean the destruction of the rest of its copies; and the characters from one Toril have their opposites in the other Torils?
Would it be nice to see the Chosen causing mayhem and Shade, the Red Wizards, Larloch, and all villains of note doing what is relatively good?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:56:42
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| Wait 'til Shemmy reads this one. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:57:39
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| Eh, why? Is she a JL-addict? Or does she have the same 'theory'? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Dec 2010 06:58:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 07:15:42
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D&D has presented a number of differing explanations for the Prime (or Primes), having to fit it/them into several revisions of planar cosmology. Where your Prime is (and how different from "other" Primes) seems to depend a great deal on where your D&D edition is located. Shemmy is certainly a master planewalker and can answer such questions better than I.
Your "many worlds" or "parallel worlds" speculation is common trope in sci-fi (and alternate-history) genres, not so much in fantasy (although there's probably a hundred examples of it being done well, even in the Realms).
I recall reading planelore hypothetically suggesting an example of a "Prime" where the Realms are essentially intact, yet good and evil are reversed. Elminster might be an immortal lich serving the evil goddess of magic, Zhentil Keep and Thay could be strongholds of good fighting against the tyrannically imperial Azoun and evil organizations like the Harpers.
Or is your question more about moral judgements? Alignment being judged as relative instead of absolute? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 07:38:55
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| All of the above. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 07:57:31
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Hmm, not a big DC fan, but I have to add my two Zhents here. A minor correction first: The actual title of that arc was "Justice League: Crisis on Infinite Earths" (not just two). It pretty much involved the analogs of most all the DC heroes from every Earth from Earth Prime on down the line. (And killed off a large number of them.)
As for there being multiple Torils, that is true with all the many campaigns being DM'ed. Every CM who runs the Realms is essentially running another version of the world. And that idea of good and evil being reversed sounds more like a plot for Sliders or Star Trek Original crew series. Remember Evil Kirk? There is precedent for that, however, and plenty of examples in comics, too. Anyone who's read the Exiles Marvel series has probably seen this at work, with one issue that dealt entirely with multiple world versions of Wolverine, some of them more or less "good" than the 616 (main) one we all know. So, yes, it is possible on both counts! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 08:26:27
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I was trying to not digress into Star Trek's "Looking Glass", Stargate, Sliders, etc. The whole concept, from a fictional perspective, is summed up all over the place - like I said, it's common trope. The entire premise is based on a "mathematical convenience" used to model quantum physics to 2nd year noobs, basically an explanation of every possible event in the universe simultaneously occuring as the same universe continuously "splits" into different universes which include each one of the infinite possible possibilities; a common analogy (in quantum physics, lol) is to think of every universe being projected like overlapping movies onto the same screen, a less common analogy is to think of each "parallel" universe as being reached by moving sideways through time. It's not wrong, nor is it correct, it is a gross oversimplification, but it is also a plausible sophistication which is easily digested by today's SF&F consumers.
Insofar as D&D cosmology:
1E described every possible world as existing on a "Prime Material Plane", these being infinite in number, the inhabits of each would view theirs as "The" Prime and all others as "Alternate" Primes. 2E lore eventually attempted to handwave revisions stating that Primes were still infinite in number, but for game purposes only the "major" worlds (Toril, Krynn, Greyhawk, etc) were considered Primes and the remainder were largely unexplored/unknown. Some lore claimed that the unique events at every D&D gaming table each existed within a unique Prime. By 3E there was somehow only one Prime Material Plane (The Prime) within which all possible D&D worlds somehow existed, separated from each other by crystal spheres (basically, solar systems isolated from each other by giant magical bubbles).
Here's descriptions of D&D cosmology and planes. In pre-4E the planes were arranged "around" the Prime in order of their alignments (Good/Evil, Law/Chaos); the reference I was citing above was part of a passage discussing possibilities from a homebrew "Prime" setting drifting out of alignment with the outer planes. Reversal of Good and Evil is indeed old trope. 4E D&D cosmology treats the outer planes more as "places" that drift through the astral sea than "destinations" aligned like spokes on a wheel. Exploring "drifting" alignments is more easily accomodated.
What composes the dichotomy of Good and Evil is a question with philosophical, emotional, spiritual, and moral considerations beyond the scope of the D&D game. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Dec 2010 08:40:26 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 11:48:03
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if the Luminous being is the DM then there are many alternate Torils
my own version is not the opposite, it's is Earth-2, Toril-2, Golarion-2 etc., the Shades are shady, Chosen are nuts, Zhents are competent |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 15:01:25
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There was a pretty good thread over on the WotC forums about two years ago, where we envisioned an 'Dark Toril'. The only thing I recall was one of my own contributions - that Larloch and his 'significant other' Szass Tam were fashion designers. That project was more like the Star Trek's 'dark universe' then Crisis (which I believe is what you are going for here).
We already have this - EVERY campaign set in FR is in an alternate FR, making the number of worlds potentially infinite (I myself have run three different variants, in three different time periods).
And for some reason I just got a picture in my head of a MASSIVE Sylūne pushing-apart Abeir and Toril....
(Hell, if Hal Jordan can be a Spectre-wannabe, so can Shadowdale's favorite witch). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2010 20:43:26 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 15:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm, not a big DC fan, but I have to add my two Zhents here. A minor correction first: The actual title of that arc was "Justice League: Crisis on Infinite Earths" (not just two). It pretty much involved the analogs of most all the DC heroes from every Earth from Earth Prime on down the line. (And killed off a large number of them.)
I think he's talking about the more recent animated movie which was titled Crisis on Two Earths and only focused on the main DC Earth (not called Earth Prime in the movie) and I believe Earth 2 (or whichever one the Crime Syndicate aka Evil Justice Leauge comes from). It ends up revolving around a supremely nihilistic Owl Man (voiced by James Woods) seeking to destroy Earth Prime (and thus the Multiverse) because he realized that no choice has any true consequence if every choice simply spawns a new reality where the other choice was made. I thought it was one of the better DC animated movies.
As for the idea itself, it would make an interesting What If? style idea. I doubt it would ever see any official support, but it would make an interesting short comic book series or short set of novels. Personally what I would want to see come out of something like that would be the inevitable cross over with the Prime universe and any lasting fallout that comes as a result. Imagine something like a good aligned Manshoon battling his usual evil counterpart. He wouldn't want to trust any of the good powers because on his world he has seen their evil counterparts and it gives us the Manshoon Clone Wars we never had. Or perhaps an evil version of one of the chosen who is no longer around shows up (maybe Khelben) to cause chaos in the name of their evil deity. Perhaps a divine Asmodeus shows up and begins fighting his fiendish counterpart. Endless possibilities.
I love these types of stories. For Marvel some of my favorite stories are this type like The Age of Apocalypse and the Earth X series. Likewise two of my favorite DC stories are Superman:Red Son (super commie Superman with Lex having to stand up for the American way) and Kingdom Come. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:00:49
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Could you imagine aiding the pius Fzoul and the noble Manshoon against the dark tyrant Azoun IV? Harried along the way by the arch-necomancer Elminster and his minions the seven?
Harried by the wretched elves and brought into the underground sanctum of peace, Menzo...
Maybe I should stop. :)
Oddly, Khelben just stays the same. :) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:14:34
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| Well, for non-combat scenes, I'd like to see Larloch 'tending' his own garden. And Szass Tam preparing breakfast for his sons. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I love these types of stories. For Marvel some of my favorite stories are this type like The Age of Apocalypse and the Earth X series. Likewise two of my favorite DC stories are Superman:Red Son (super commie Superman with Lex having to stand up for the American way) and Kingdom Come.
In case you weren't already aware, you might also be interested in the upcoming 'Age of X' storyline in the pages of X-Men Legacy. It's set-up in a similar fashion to AoA, but instead of a "World Without Xavier," we've a chance to explore a "World Without the X-Men." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:26:18
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| Aye. Azoun IV the Usurper, whom the commoners think of as a noble Paladin (for they dare not speak - nay, even think! - otherwise, lest the assassin-mage Vangerdahast's secret police overhear), plotting with evil Elminster to raid the Dales for next season's crops and women. Perhaps the largest army in Faerūn, mightier than even Khelben's undead legions of Waterdeep, built upon the whipped backs of dying slaves. Yea, only fine champions like Manshoon the White (who rallies unfailingly to the cause of good even beyond his own death), can lead the good citadels of the Moonsea in opposing this dire warmongering imperialist threat. Manshoon's cause is not hopeless; for he is allied with the great healer Szass Tam (who leads his selfless Red Wizards), and elite regiments of drow bladesingers, and the noble orc tribes ... they are all sworn to oppose slavers and thieves like the Harpers, these poor outnumbered valiant heroes of the Mirror-Realms can never rest in their endless struggle against the forces of darkness ... |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2010 00:27:25 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:37:35
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quote:
...for they dare not speak - nay, even think! - otherwise, lest the assassin-mage Vangerdahast's secret police overhear...
What, that's not how the War Wizards work in the normal Realms? |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 20:55:40
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| That's exactly how (I perceive) the War Wizards work in the normal Realms. The difference is in the methodologies the good-vs-evil thought police would choose to implement after detecting "possible threats against the crown". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 21:03:15
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Of course they do.
The trick to be a truly great tyranny is to convince everyone you are acting 'in their best interest'.
I had more here, but thought better of it.
Every time Zhentil keep attempted to expand its holdings (or further its mercantile goals), Cormyr was in the forefront to stop them. YET, Cormyr has annexed ohter places though out its history, sometimes with the support of the region being annexed, but more often not. Cormyr behaves FAR MORE imperialistically then Zhentil Keep ever did - they just have better 'spin doctors'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:08:40
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| HMMM, I thought I put Schroendgers cat around here somewhere??? |
Edited by - althen artren on 06 Dec 2010 00:08:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:34:23
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| Nah, that's something entirely different. Unless Schrödinger's cat is black for some observers and white for others. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:08:10
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Bizzaro/negative worlds are interesting to a point, but so are ones with minor tweaks. Take one event in the realms and twist it, like have the elves win and prevent the Fall of Myth Drannor or have the Shades not worship just Shar when they return. And then expand on that...
Or have Shar drop in power instead of Selune, so the former was the Intermidary Goddess and the Latter was a greatest Goddess for years. Or have the two be fused together some how centuries ago. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 06 Dec 2010 01:09:56 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:18:18
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Vertical and lateral displacement through time ... ugly business this infinite parallel Realms can be.
I'd vote for Karsus (and likely his entire enclave) being smeared out of existence by a flaming mountain hurled out of the sky. Whoops, somebody dropped a rock? But then, no fall of Eternal Netheril. Maybe a few more flaming mountains landing on or near other arcanists who begin to dare similar Avatar spells, perhaps a few floating cities smeared down. Modern Faerūn shaped by millenia of flowering Netheril, Shade never exiled, Moander still moldering in his prime ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Bizzaro/negative worlds are interesting to a point, but so are ones with minor tweaks. Take one event in the realms and twist it, like have the elves win and prevent the Fall of Myth Drannor or have the Shades not worship just Shar when they return. And then expand on that...
Or have Shar drop in power instead of Selune, so the former was the Intermidary Goddess and the Latter was a greatest Goddess for years. Or have the two be fused together some how centuries ago.
Well, not all of them worship the bi*** goddess. Telamont and Brennus are prime examples, after the recent turn of events in the TW. Personally, I don't want the Shades to be tied to any deity. I'd rather see them as agnostic archwizards, like the Imaskari. Which wouldn't be far from happening once Telamont wrests control of the SW, or a large chunk of it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:02:01
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| If anything, the Shades should have a greater affinity for worshipping Mask than Shar. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 02:14:56
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| I don't think a city full of archmages would deign put their faith to a mere lesser deity, who's just a level higher than each of them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:53:01
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quote:
I'd vote for Karsus (and likely his entire enclave) being smeared out of existence by a flaming mountain hurled out of the sky.
Cataclysm, mark 2?
Incidentally, Netheril was doomed even without Karsus. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
<snip>
Incidentally, Netheril was doomed even without Karsus.
Total agreement here. The question is, would we have those 13 red pyramids in Ascore or the evil black Wulgreth pyramid in Karse without Karsus? I still want to know what the story behind those is, but the Realms (particularly the North) would be less interesting without them. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:22:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I love these types of stories. For Marvel some of my favorite stories are this type like The Age of Apocalypse and the Earth X series. Likewise two of my favorite DC stories are Superman:Red Son (super commie Superman with Lex having to stand up for the American way) and Kingdom Come.
In case you weren't already aware, you might also be interested in the upcoming 'Age of X' storyline in the pages of X-Men Legacy. It's set-up in a similar fashion to AoA, but instead of a "World Without Xavier," we've a chance to explore a "World Without the X-Men."
I don't keep as up to date as I used to with comics. I will have to look into that. Have they given any kind of idea of what some of the differences might be? I'm just curious because the timeline of events for the Age of Apocalypse made the ascension of Apocalypse seem like it was a reasonable possibility and I'm curious if it will at least kind of make sense.
As for alternate possible Realms, what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? Either by absorbing Mystra's power (and all of the ramifactions of that act) or having the spell work because he targeted a different god/dess. Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar? And so on and so on.
Or another possibility. What if the Karsus clone in The Temptation of Elminster had activated as it was supposed to? Would he be a copy of the genuine article? I got the impression from what was stored in the stones in the floor that this would not be the case but who knows for sure? Would he learn the end result of his folly and cast aside any attempts to retry or would his hubris remain and drive him to find a new way? Would he attempt to resurrect the Netherese Empire? Would he seek out the Shade Enclave, or one of the other survivor states? If so, towards what end? Would he awaken just after the fall, or in the "present" day? Now for the more useful question that would allow all of this to be explored in novels. What if that wasn't the only back up and at least one other is still out there waiting to activate? Following that, how much more destructive would the Karsus version of the Clone Wars be in comparison to the Manshoon variety? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 04:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
As for alternate possible Realms, what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? Either by absorbing Mystra's power (and all of the ramifactions of that act) or having the spell work because he targeted a different god/dess. Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar?
That's interesting. Though I'm not so sure about that last part. I'd rather see Telamont gain enough power to split the SW and have half or the larger part of it to himself, and leave the other to Shar. Despite her nigh-ubiquitousness, I still want to see her around. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8053 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 14:37:50
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quote:
Tyrant
... what about if Karsus had been able to achieve his goal? ... Would he use his new found divinity to smite the Phaerimm and fix the problems of Netheril? Or would he use his power to achieve his own ends with no thought to the rest of the Netherese and leave them to their fate? Would Telemont mimic his friend Karsus and consume Shar?
The only people who could answer those questions would be Karsus and Telemont, or more accurately, the first authors who write the stories about them.
Larloch is, apparently, skilled and powerful enough to challenge gods, if not Mystra then perhaps at least little Azuth. Yet he chooses not to because he's grown wise (or meek) enough over the millennia to realize that godhood isn't in his (mysterious) best interests. Perhaps Karsus would be bright enough to reach a similar conclusion, or perhaps he would be blinded by his ambition and arrogance. It think that, were he successful, Karsus would've become just as "anchored" to and dependent upon the belief of his (arcanist) followers in Netheril as was Mystryl before him. Then again, he might have been insanely arrogant and decided, Raistlin style, to merely use this as a stepping stone towards assuming control of the entire pantheon. Perhaps he'd reformat the entire cosmos, Szass Tam style, millennia before Thay was on the map.
Telemont's association with Shar is based on Shade's extra-planar exile from Faerūn, an event forced by Karsus killing Mystryl and magic. I'd think Netheril Arcanist Telemont would've continued to (properly) have nothing to do at all with any of the gods, excepting Mystryl/Karsus perhaps ... Shar was a necessary means to assuring survival in the Plane of Shadow, alliance or worship (even tolerance) of Shar was forged under duress, nothing more. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 00:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Shar was a necessary means to assuring survival in the Plane of Shadow, alliance or worship (even tolerance) of Shar was forged under duress, nothing more.
The said alliance is only temporary and is currently uneasy, at least on Shade's part. While Telamont recognized Shar's importance to the survival of his empire, he couldn't deny his gnawing hatred at her for engineering his wife's death. Time will come for his rightful revenge...
A bit OT:
I noticed some scribes spelled the Most High's name as Telemont, instead of Telamont. Is is just an accidental misspelling or are the two spellings official? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Toril Prime and Other Torils
