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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 17:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough.
Obviously not, because the shops that you so despise are canon. As is Thay trying other methods of gaining power outside of Thay.
Just because 'tis canon doesn't mean I have to like it. The use of spies to further the Reds' goals looks not enough because WotC has already utilized the Wal-Marts, making it appear (ridiculously) useful when it's in fact bootless.
Your opinion. It is obviously not a universal opinion. Perhaps we should simply agree to disagree? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 17:59:28
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Indeed. Heheh. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:12:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your logic is true, Wooly. It just doesn't seem to agree with the earlier-established Red qualities of respecting nothing more than magical potency. The slithering serpent or trojan horse approach is undeniably effective, and adds that much more villainous twist to your dagger when you do finally act upon your treacherous plans ... it just doesn't seem as easily "in character" as Reds simply blasting down the gates with fire and sending legions of undead/demon weapons platforms into your cities instead. The strong take what the weak cannot defend, magical mastery is the ultimate measure of strength.
Why the sudden change in tactics? Was Thay feeling a little lonely? Did the game designers feel that Thay needed to be drawn out a little more? How would you encourage all of your divisive scheming Red factions into cooperating in such a grandoise plot?
Well, as I understand it, the Red Wal-Marts weren't universally supported by the Zulkirs. All it would take is a couple of them to say "hey, this openly conquering other nations routine hasn't worked out so well, has it? Maybe we could try something with a chance of success?"
It would only take a handful of the Zulkirs to set this up. And honestly, I'd be surprised if all of those Zulkirs even thought it was a good idea. Some may have, some may have gone along on the off-chance that it worked, some may have joined in just to have something else going they could use against enemies, some may have joined to get potential rivals out of their hair....
Thay has not been a monolithic entity, acting in unison. Thay is your typical hotbed of Machiavellan politics, with everyone jockeying for position against everyone else. All it takes is one person to have a not unreasonable idea, and they'll have a lot of support, for a lot of reasons.
And we have seen Thay trying tactics other than outright conquest, as well. Off the top of my head, I'm recalling how they gained power in Mulmaster, and I'm recalling a female Red Wizard trying to take advantage of Azoun IV's wandering eyes. So it's not unprecedented or out of character for them to try yet another means of gathering power.
Nail ==> Head ==> Smack
Exactly Wooly |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:19:23
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OT:
I went to Fullybooked earlier and noticed that Unclean had been reprinted with the new D&D logo. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery.
The spies and/or hidden agents (say, the trusted advisers of certain politicians or the politicians themselves) not yet discovered would be able to discredit any discovery. Hence the uselessness of the 'shops.'
It goes like this (a basic version mind you)...
Governor: "Oh no, there's a nasty bunch of bandits that have been terrorizing the roads"
Enclave Leader: "You know, we've been good friends. I'd be willing to send some of my people and make that problem go away. We'd even do it free."
Governor: "Thank you, I would appreciate that. You know you red wizards have really gotten a bad reputation."
2 months later
Governor: "Hey, thanks for cleaning up those bandits. Did you guys ever recover any of what they stole?"
Enclave Leader: "No, nothing but the minor items we returned. Some of them fled and they may have gotten away with some of their ill-gotten gains. You haven't had further problems have you?"
Governor: "No problem. At least you returned some of it. Had we hired bounty hunters, I bet we wouldn't have gotten any of it. So, what did you do with them?"
Enclave Leader: "Oh, we believed that you wouldn't like having them around here to possibly continue doing harm if they got loose. So, we sent them back to Thay to serve out their sentence, where they can be held more secure. We figured that would be less of a drain on your resources anyway, since jailing them would be a hassle for you. You're fine with that, right?"
Governor: "Well, I guess that's ok, but in the future, please pass it by me if you don't mind. As long as they aren't killing people on the road between here and X, my citizens will be happy."
Of course, the above would only work in the more provincial back areas. In larger more established countries, the Thayans would have to be a bit more careful... but the general idea is the same. Governor X gets what he wants and the Thayans get what they want, and there's noone to say that the Thayans did anything majorly illegal if they were acting upon the decisions of the ruling class. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery.
The spies and/or hidden agents (say, the trusted advisers of certain politicians or the politicians themselves) not yet discovered would be able to discredit any discovery. Hence the uselessness of the 'shops.'
So the secondary goals of gaining money, keeping rivals/apprentices busy or out of your hair, building good will, distributing items that may further help you or hinder foes, all of those things are utterly useless?
YES. With an emphasis on utterly. Gaining money through the shops? No. They have mines, have thieves who are at the same time practitioners of the Art, engage in black markets, sell slaves...the list goes on... Keeping rivals busy through the shops? No. The Reds are pretty smart to devise several other ways to keep their rivals occupied. If you read the HL trilogy, you should know what I mean. Building good will through the shops? Now that's funny. Good and Thay can never be used in one phrase. If deception is all they want, as I mentioned, they can utilize their spies. Distributing items that may further help them or hinder their foes through the shops? What for? The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough.
And as you've noted, their spies are constantly killing folks who probably have some form of minor protective magic items. So, what do adventurers do when they end up with 6 +1 swords and 7 +1 rings of protection and 4 +1 amulets of natural armor? The same thing the reds are doing... they resell them. But adventurers only get half cost. The reds can resell them at full cost, plus turn around and buy some off adventurers and resell THOSE. In the end, you're just letting your apprentices churn around all the junk items, raking in the money, and using the profit to create that +4 ring of protection you really need. The thing the red wizards are simply doing is realizing
A) wow, we naturally have the resources required to run a magic shop because we've got a ton of apprentices
B) we need to train the apprentices anyway in magic item creation, so let's sell the "beginner" stuff they make
C) making apprentices create magic items also slows their progression, thus they're apprentices to work in my circle longer
D) man, I've got a bunch of low powered magic items I've gotten through killing people that's piling up. Why should I give it to some other wizard and lose half the money when my apprentices can make me double the money
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 18:53:21
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Perhaps Undead and Unholy had also been reprinted with the D&D logo. But I didn't see them in Fullybooked, Powerbooks, nor in National BS.
Anyway, the results of the poll (so far) don't surprise me. But I was hoping the number of votes for Thay 2.0 would be closer to the winner. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 02:20:35
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quote:
sleyvas
So, what do adventurers do when they end up with 6 +1 swords and 7 +1 rings of protection and 4 +1 amulets of natural armor? The same thing the reds are doing... they resell them. But adventurers only get half cost.
My players hand that sort of candy out to their henchmen and followers. Or use it as bribes and offers to sweeten important deals with NPCs. Of course, without Red-Mart, the "magic shoppe" prices are merely guidelines in my Realms. Magic items, even those of little consequence, are still immensely valuable ... I never liked the Transmute Into Gold approach, it cheapens the magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 03:06:26
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| Does Thay have a role in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts? I know it's set in Rashemen; and since it's Thay neighbor, I thought the Red Wizards might have played a part. I bought it last night, and will read it later. I saw threads of it in the BC. But I'm afraid to stumble upon very important spoilers so I avoid them atm... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Elsenrail
Seeker
Poland
72 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2010 : 16:29:48
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| As far as I remember, "Thi Shield..." is all about Rashemen - wychlaran, durthan, a bit of Nar barbarians. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 00:48:37
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| I'd love to read about the Durthans. Unfortunately, I can't seem to stop reading more of Moore's books. So I would have to postpone reading TSoWG for a while... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 14:39:17
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In one of my previous post on this thread I talked about a wiped-out nation...
What I cannot understand clearly is about the coexistence of the living and the undeads:
- why bother to keep the living... alive? Just to produce more undead?
- to maintain the resemblance of a nation for political reasons? (not credible, I suppose)
Otherwise... I can't see anything else but a continuous mass extermination to increase the ranks of undead legions! And this can't be...
Any explanations to my doubts I may have missed? Thanks!! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:08:01
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Szass can always generate more undead, and his plans are more immediate than long-term, plus he has plenty of populated neighbours. So he wouldn't bother to maintain a living population just to eventually replenish his armies.
Undead are generally mindless, clumsy, incorporeal, or require the living for sustenance. And often a bit tougher than commoners but much inferior to big-chin glowing heroic types. The only undeads which can normally cast spells are vampires, liches, shades, and sometimes ghosts or spectres. Vampires require living populations to prey upon. The others are not "cost-effective" to manufacture in quantity; so if Szass wants any number of spellcasters (Red necros) then he has to tolerate the living, and he probably realizes each wizard needs to have a ton of other living people around to stay happy and loyal.
The living can also perform many other important tasks the majority of undead cannot.
Like command the undead. Or think. Or interact with foreigners (travelling merchants won't import valuable resources and information to Thay if they have to bargain with vampires and liches). Or spy on enemies far outside of Szass's control range. Or worship Bane.
It's also unwise to overspecialize in one area while neglecting others. What if Szass's opponents devise some spell or item which area-nukes undead to hell but leaves the living unaffected? (Many priest magics already do this.)
Plus Szass is (in his own mind, at least) not an intrinsically evil individual. He'll happily kill people or defile their corpses to restock platoons that are short a few members. But he doesn't go about methodically killing everybody just so he can eventually raise them later ... why waste resources? Use the person twice, when he's living then when he's dead. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 15:17:36 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Szass can always generate more undead, and his plans are more immediate than long-term, plus he has plenty of populated neighbours. So he wouldn't bother to maintain a living population just to eventually replenish his armies.
Exactly... so, basically his undead can play as they prefer with the living population...
quote:
... so if Szass wants wizards then he has to tolerate the living, and he probably realizes each wizard needs to have a ton of other living people around.
Is stated somewhere that humans in Thay are allowed to be mages (potentially a threat).. I understand that in Thay the ruling class is undead now...
quote:
The living can also perform many other important tasks the majority of undead cannot.
Like command the undead.
I doubt Tam will allow undead to be commanded ...
For the other considerations: I like the idea of make them worship Bane [:-)] as well as the "un-turnability" of the living. In fact these are the only strong point I see contradicting my statement.
While the other consideration are logical, I think they can be carried out by a limited number of individuals (Human agents by the way not "common people"). This returns me to my starting point: aside from the very few living people working for Tam, the majority of the population is just cattle... destined to some horrible death before joining the ranks of the undead...
This situation can't stand that way longer... Divine vengeance or a mass extermination, what will strike first?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 15:39:39
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You are aware that Szass's Red necros are spellbound to him? They're all completely loyal, he's made sure they literally have no other real choice.
As almighty as he might be, Szass cannot singlehandedly simultaneously control every single undead in Thay. He also cannot allow them to wander about completely uncontrolled, because they'll end up acting stupid and getting damaged, attacking each other, or simply wandering outside Thay before he wants them to. Thus he requires minions to maintain his chain of command, an unavoidable necessity.
Final note - Szass's dread ritual might require a sacrifice or energy pool which can only be provided by a large number of sentient living creatures, thus he might be hamstrung by the requirement to keep them (and a few extra) around. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2010 15:45:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 23:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Final note - Szass's dread ritual might require a sacrifice or energy pool which can only be provided by a large number of sentient living creatures, thus he might be hamstrung by the requirement to keep them (and a few extra) around.
Also, if he finds the need to summon Bane again, he would need live beings as sacrifice, just like what he did in Undead. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
While the other consideration are logical, I think they can be carried out by a limited number of individuals (Human agents by the way not "common people"). This returns me to my starting point: aside from the very few living people working for Tam, the majority of the population is just cattle... destined to some horrible death before joining the ranks of the undead...
This situation can't stand that way longer... Divine vengeance or a mass extermination, what will strike first?
If Tam does a mass extermination of his subjects, and buys more live slaves from different nations only to have them killed and animated, the loyal followers of the God of Death would most likely wage an open war.
It's a matter of how long can they tolerate such massive desecration of death... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Jan 2011 00:02:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 19:45:01
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I've read the trilogy many times, but I still haven't made up my mind if I really want Szass Tam to continue his rule or if it would be better to have the zulkirs back. In fact, I already forgot what I voted.
Maybe we can have Szass Tam rule Thay for a while [until 5E] and later on reinstate the surviving zulkirs. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 16:31:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I've read the trilogy many times, but I still haven't made up my mind if I really want Szass Tam to continue his rule or if it would be better to have the zulkirs back. In fact, I already forgot what I voted.
Maybe we can have Szass Tam rule Thay for a while [until 5E] and later on reinstate the surviving zulkirs.
I don't mind a country ruled by undead. My only problem comes down to why did it have to be Thay, because it was full of possibilities. After all, there was once a country south of Unther full of Myrkul worshippers named Eltabrannar. It might have even been interesting to have had Tam forced out of Thay and he builds said country and the two oppose each other. They could then have some new necromancer take over in Thay for that one position, but power wise that Zulkir doesn't dominate. I think that could have been really interesting if he were an actual living necromancer... maybe a blood mage, or maybe some sort of multi-classed wizard.
That all being said, novel wise, I really liked what they did story wise in the 3 novels. I just wish the end goal had been different. But, it is what it is, and no use crying over it. Either change my campaign, run it earlier in the timeline, or whatever... there's all kinds of options. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 04:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I've read the trilogy many times, but I still haven't made up my mind if I really want Szass Tam to continue his rule or if it would be better to have the zulkirs back. In fact, I already forgot what I voted.
Maybe we can have Szass Tam rule Thay for a while [until 5E] and later on reinstate the surviving zulkirs.
I really liked what they did story wise in the 3 novels.
Full agreement. I have a few quibbles, specially on certain deaths that are a bit difficult to believe. But overall, it's a great series--- one of the best in FR. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 15:50:47
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| Is Thay 3.0 related, in any way, to the release of the Iphone 4S? ;) |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 04:36:10
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Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 14:51:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Might as well have a Zulkir of Psionics too, THAT would be awesome. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 16:19:57
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| I didn't realize that shades were considered "undead" |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 16:21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Might as well have a Zulkir of Psionics too, THAT would be awesome.
Check out Lisa Smedmans "House of Serpents" for a cool Psionics trilogy. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 16:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Might as well have a Zulkir of Psionics too, THAT would be awesome.
I would love that. However, if I'm not mistaken, there are so few psionicists in Thay that their number might be considered insignificant. As far as the Zulkirate is concerned, both power and number do matter. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 16:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Might as well have a Zulkir of Psionics too, THAT would be awesome.
I would love that. However, if I'm not mistaken, there are so few psionicists in Thay that their number might be considered insignificant. As far as the Zulkirate is concerned, both power and number do matter.
...and size if you consider Samas |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 17:16:35
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He was the first and last obese zulkir. [Aumvor, the most hideously corpulent being in Toril, might be inclined to animate him to be his lich-lackey.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 01:57:22
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| Interesting that every one of the Zulkirs possesses some personal trait which is particularly offensive. Samas Kul might be physically repulsive but he is really no more ill-mannered than any of the other Zulkirs and, surprisingly, seems to have the most "inoffensive" personality of the lot. If the Zulkirs were interacting in some non-physical medium (say, tweeting each other through scrying devices), then Samas would actually seem rather pleasant in comparison. The other Zulkirs become equally grotesque the moment they open their mouths (as opposed to Samas constantly stuffing his mouth full). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Oct 2011 04:52:33 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 04:35:47
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Lallara has all the right to be ruthlessly chiding. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
