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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 04:56:52
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Gluttony. Greed. Sloth. Arrogance. Pride. Anger. Ambition. Deceit. Treachery. Cowardice. Incompetence.
Yes, some of these traits are shared by all the Zulkirs (and most Red Wizards), but it seems like each Zulkir exemplifies one particularly repulsive "virtue" above all others.
Essentially a textbook example of cardinal sins, the most powerful spellcasters of Thay. lol, name them all to win a prize.
I wonder if this personality archetyping was intentional or not? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Oct 2011 05:01:33 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 05:12:18
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I agree to all the cardinal sins exemplified by the zulkirs, except incompetence. No one, despite all the politicking involved, is elected zulkir who doesn’t possess a dose of cunning and keen mind. Even Samas was competent enough, girth notwithstanding. Now you might be thinking of Zola. Yes, she’s an incompetent, silly, weak Red Wizard. But then again, she wasn’t a true zulkir. More like a “filler.” The Council needed all abled spellcasters to lend a hand to their cause, weak necromancers included. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 05:22:15
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Yes, Zola. She was just an opportunist - or a pawn - wrongly assuming herself equal to the other Zulkirs. Oops.
If I had to apply a single-word description to Szass, it would be "madman" ... something of a cross between genius, megalomania, insanity, and perhaps delusion.
Incidentally, I'm not trying to apply the classic cardinal sins to the Zulkirs, just a similar system of values. All told, there are less than eight surviving Zulkirs, although perhaps twice that number did contribute to the story ... before they were killed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 08:34:36
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| Thay 1.0 simply cause there is more adventuring opportunities for living PC's. The new Thay is basically Mordor. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 14:44:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If I had to apply a single-word description to Szass, it would be "madman" ... something of a cross between genius, megalomania, insanity, and perhaps delusion.
According to Susan Morris, Szass Tam is a "mastermind" villain. And I wholeheartedly agree! You can check it here. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 14:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Thay 1.0 simply cause there is more adventuring opportunities for living PC's. The new Thay is basically Mordor.
my precioussssss Zulkirs |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 16:33:12
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The first Zulkirate thrived in the balance of power shared by each order, the very balance they endeavored to maintain. What if the first zulkirs - Hahlomede Teeos, Tlantros Tulhoond, Zarhandro Laeluth, Dlueae Sharshyndree, Yaerind Mahl, Tarabbas Mroound, Kulvur Naraelond – were alive, disliked Szass Tam's sole sovereignty over Thay, and reappeared to oust him and restore the balance, either by reinstating themselves or the most recent peers of Szass Tam? What if they were Thay's “Hidden Guardians”? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 19:12:26
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I miss the Simbul wreaking havoc in Thay. 
Azuth |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11861 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 19:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Um... the foundation of Thay was basically... the separation of church and state.... freedom in research from religious principles. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 00:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Um... the foundation of Thay was basically... the separation of church and state.... freedom in research from religious principles.
It is not a complete separation as priests do have uses to the zulkirs. Hierophants, just like Iphegor, are also given "special" treatment by the zulkirs, and at times treat them as nigh equal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11861 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 21:08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Um... the foundation of Thay was basically... the separation of church and state.... freedom in research from religious principles.
It is not a complete separation as priests do have uses to the zulkirs. Hierophants, just like Iphegor, are also given "special" treatment by the zulkirs, and at times treat them as nigh equal.
They may have uses, but they aren't IN the structure of the government. Think of it as if in America right now someone were to say that they thought that say the Pope or some Muslim priest should be an advisor to the president and dictate matters of state as pertains to how they should live their lives in accordance with said religion. Noone would shoot the pope or the muslim priest (hopefully), but the idiot trying to push that agenda wouldn't be breathing much longer. Same would happen in Thay, because they're even more inclined to violence than we are. You may have a lot of people giving more lip service to say Bane's church than any other, but that doesn't mean they want Bane's clergy giving them orders. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:27:36
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| There was a 23rd lvl. cleric of Bhaal in Bezantur, wonder what happened to that guy |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 11:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
There was a 23rd lvl. cleric of Bhaal in Bezantur, wonder what happened to that guy
Probably destroyed by Szass Tam's quells or became a lab rat of Xingax. It may sound like a joke, but given the chaos brought by the Civil War, and given that a Zulkir of Evocation [whom I gathered was above 23rd level] was slain by a mere blood fiend, such things likely happened. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 Oct 2011 15:23:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 14:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Speaking of Thay 3.0, I think it would be appropriate to also have a Zulkir of Divine Magic. The one to occupy such seat would be the High Priest of the most widespread church in the realm.
Um... the foundation of Thay was basically... the separation of church and state.... freedom in research from religious principles.
It is not a complete separation as priests do have uses to the zulkirs. Hierophants, just like Iphegor, are also given "special" treatment by the zulkirs, and at times treat them as nigh equal.
They may have uses, but they aren't IN the structure of the government. Think of it as if in America right now someone were to say that they thought that say the Pope or some Muslim priest should be an advisor to the president and dictate matters of state as pertains to how they should live their lives in accordance with said religion. Noone would shoot the pope or the muslim priest (hopefully), but the idiot trying to push that agenda wouldn't be breathing much longer. Same would happen in Thay, because they're even more inclined to violence than we are. You may have a lot of people giving more lip service to say Bane's church than any other, but that doesn't mean they want Bane's clergy giving them orders.
I would not compare them to advisors. They do more than that, as evidenced in The Haunted Lands. When it comes down to it, they could choose which zulkir to support and oppose. Some even displayed arrogance before the zulkirs themselves and lived to tell the tale. They may not be as influential and powerful as the eight rulers of the land, but the gravity of their roles are far more important than mere advisors'. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Nov 2011 16:12:03 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2011 : 16:03:09
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quote:
Zulkir of Evocation [whom I gathered was above 23rd level] was slain by a mere blood fiend
Allow me to put on my Comic Book Guy costume and voice: Worst. Writing. Ever.
SO hated that series.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 04:51:27
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It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 26 Mar 2012 04:52:47 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 15:30:21
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| I voted for Thay 3.0. the Zulkirs lost the war in no small part to their own arrogance and stupidity. But the current Thay is even worse, i think its time for some new blood. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 16:39:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I voted for Thay 3.0. the Zulkirs lost the war in no small part to their own arrogance and stupidity. But the current Thay is even worse, i think its time for some new blood.
Most of the "blood" in Thay has long since dried up or been consumed by vampires. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 17:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I voted for Thay 3.0. the Zulkirs lost the war in no small part to their own arrogance and stupidity. But the current Thay is even worse, i think its time for some new blood.
Most of the "blood" in Thay has long since dried up or been consumed by vampires.
Good point  but i didnt say Human blood did i |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:18:13
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I wouldn't mind a couple of new bloods. However, it would be quite strange if all of the zulkirs are. Half would do. Or maybe 5, out of 8.
The question is, how and when should Szass Tam be “demoted”? No new and proper Zulkirate could rise if Thay's sole sovereign maintains his iron grip on his domain... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s
Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir.
He should have kept a contingency teleport :P
Realistically, other than certain spells, Evocation is one of the most droppable schools of magic to chose when specializing(The most droppable being Enchantment). Contingency is the main reason to ever keep Evocation. One would think a Zulkir of Evocation would have a contingent teleport on his person. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 17 Sep 2012 16:56:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 03:51:08
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I have nothing to counter that at the moment. But I'll revisit this thread once I come up with one.
I'd like to hear Richard's thoughts on this, though. I understand how great a challenge it is to handle deaths in a book, specially of long-time characters that survived the various edition shifts. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I have nothing to counter that at the moment. But I'll revisit this thread once I come up with one.
I'd like to hear Richard's thoughts on this, though. I understand how great a challenge it is to handle deaths in a book, specially of long-time characters that survived the various edition shifts.
Well, the more I think about it. The guy was in his own Sanctum, presumably he figured nobody would try to strike at him there.
I can't remember what his 2 forbidden schools are |
Edited by - Firestorm on 18 Sep 2012 16:10:50 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11861 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:30:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s
Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir.
He should have kept a contingency teleport :P
Realistically, other than certain spells, Evocation is one of the most droppable schools of magic to chose when specializing(The most droppable being Enchantment). Contingency is the main reason to ever keep Evocation. One would think a Zulkir of Evocation would have a contingent teleport on his person.
Read the contingency spell closer.
Focus: a statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.
I believe the man was nude and having sex. He may not have had the focus on his person. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 18:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s
Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir.
He should have kept a contingency teleport :P
Realistically, other than certain spells, Evocation is one of the most droppable schools of magic to chose when specializing(The most droppable being Enchantment). Contingency is the main reason to ever keep Evocation. One would think a Zulkir of Evocation would have a contingent teleport on his person.
Read the contingency spell closer.
Focus: a statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.
I believe the man was nude and having sex. He may not have had the focus on his person.
For some reason, I thought the level 9 version "chain contingency" had no listed spell component after casting. I could be wrong.
In any case, I finally found Aznar's stats in the sourcebook. One of his forbidden schools is conjuration, so no teleport for him.
Certain schools I would never drop for certain spells. Teleport is definitely one of them. The one school I usually drop is enchantment, followed by illusion.
Mostly because Abjuration and Transmutation are absolutely invaluable. Evocation for contingency and wall of force. Divination is the easiest school to specialize in since you only drop 1 school, and in gaming, specialization is definitely worth it. And its spells are always handy so it is a good thing you are not allowed to drop this school. Necromancy is a mixed bag. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11861 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 19:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s
Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir.
He should have kept a contingency teleport :P
Realistically, other than certain spells, Evocation is one of the most droppable schools of magic to chose when specializing(The most droppable being Enchantment). Contingency is the main reason to ever keep Evocation. One would think a Zulkir of Evocation would have a contingent teleport on his person.
Read the contingency spell closer.
Focus: a statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.
I believe the man was nude and having sex. He may not have had the focus on his person.
For some reason, I thought the level 9 version "chain contingency" had no listed spell component after casting. I could be wrong.
In any case, I finally found Aznar's stats in the sourcebook. One of his forbidden schools is conjuration, so no teleport for him.
Certain schools I would never drop for certain spells. Teleport is definitely one of them. The one school I usually drop is enchantment, followed by illusion.
Mostly because Abjuration and Transmutation are absolutely invaluable. Evocation for contingency and wall of force. Divination is the easiest school to specialize in since you only drop 1 school, and in gaming, specialization is definitely worth it. And its spells are always handy so it is a good thing you are not allowed to drop this school. Necromancy is a mixed bag.
Nope, chain contingency still requires the focus in 3rd edition. The below is from tome and blood, which I believe was the last version of the spell written for either 3.0 or 3.5. They then came out with the craft contingent spell feat, which that would bypass the need for the focus, but only if you took the feat (which I've always had a fascination with contingent magics since 2nd edition, so I always try to either use it or persistent spell ... or both... with a caster). Of course, the problem with the craft contingent spell feat is the prohibitive costs of using anything high level.
Chain Contingency
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
As the contingency spell, except that you can place up to
three other spells upon your person so that they come
into effect under some condition you dictate when casting
chain contingency. The spells can come into effect
simultaneously or one at a time, one per round. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 04:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s
Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's important to note the context. Had Aznar been in his battle-ready condition, the blood fiend would not have stood a chance. He was at the height of passion when the transformed former tharachion attacked him, and he had no access to his spell components that should have enabled him to cast more powerful spells, because, in the first place, he disrobed. What man would wear a robe during sex?
Anyway, if you ask my personal, biased opinion, I'd rather have the death scene handled differently... Not exactly a 'proper' way to go for a (true) Zulkir.
He should have kept a contingency teleport :P
Realistically, other than certain spells, Evocation is one of the most droppable schools of magic to chose when specializing(The most droppable being Enchantment). Contingency is the main reason to ever keep Evocation. One would think a Zulkir of Evocation would have a contingent teleport on his person.
Read the contingency spell closer.
Focus: a statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.
I believe the man was nude and having sex. He may not have had the focus on his person.
For some reason, I thought the level 9 version "chain contingency" had no listed spell component after casting. I could be wrong.
In any case, I finally found Aznar's stats in the sourcebook. One of his forbidden schools is conjuration, so no teleport for him.
Certain schools I would never drop for certain spells. Teleport is definitely one of them. The one school I usually drop is enchantment, followed by illusion.
Mostly because Abjuration and Transmutation are absolutely invaluable. Evocation for contingency and wall of force. Divination is the easiest school to specialize in since you only drop 1 school, and in gaming, specialization is definitely worth it. And its spells are always handy so it is a good thing you are not allowed to drop this school. Necromancy is a mixed bag.
Nope, chain contingency still requires the focus in 3rd edition. The below is from tome and blood, which I believe was the last version of the spell written for either 3.0 or 3.5. They then came out with the craft contingent spell feat, which that would bypass the need for the focus, but only if you took the feat (which I've always had a fascination with contingent magics since 2nd edition, so I always try to either use it or persistent spell ... or both... with a caster). Of course, the problem with the craft contingent spell feat is the prohibitive costs of using anything high level.
Chain Contingency
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
As the contingency spell, except that you can place up to
three other spells upon your person so that they come
into effect under some condition you dictate when casting
chain contingency. The spells can come into effect
simultaneously or one at a time, one per round.
Interesting. Thank you
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 05:26:01
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Well, novels don't necessarily follow game mechanics. So, yes, Aznar could have used teleportation as part of his contingencies. It could be in a ring, which he took off, along with his robes and a couple more talismans prior to enjoying himself with his sex-slave, confident of the safety that his own home provided. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 05:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Well, novels don't necessarily follow game mechanics. So, yes, Aznar could have used teleportation as part of his contingencies. It could be in a ring, which he took off, along with his robes and a couple more talismans prior to enjoying himself with his sex-slave, confident of the safety that his own home provided.
They usually do follow game mechanics tho since it is shared world fiction.
Certainly there are game mechanics to learn spells in banned schools(but are usually costly).
Certainly he could have had a ring with that power. I am sure which rings they wear are influenced heavily by which schools they ban as well. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 05:18:11
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| I think Szass Tam being overthrown would be an interesting trilogy. (I've privately written and sketched out a story of the exiled and now expanded Red Wizards conspiring with neighboring nations to overthrow Szass Tam...) Although it seems like they wanted him to become like the guy from Mordor ruling over an evil land even as far back as Spellbound. Re-reading Spellbound it is obvious they intended for him to take over the land. I prefer the infighting Zulkirs, Tharchions, etc. because it leads to more role playing possibilities. |
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Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
