| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 23:59:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.
I really like this. Though I think I'd tinker with it just a little, and suggest that there's only certain foreign markets targeted for such activity. Downtrodden or politically ineffectual governments/societies for example. There's no use trying to hook a magically stable and politically capable city. Because if they discover the Thayvian tinkering, it could cause problems.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 00:41:25
|
Activation of the remote might only function within a certain range, be it a few city blocks or miles or just all of Cormyr. It might already be done all the time without anyone's knowledge (perhaps not even the Red salesmen).
In fact, it need not even be something the Reds do knowingly or by choice. Somebody big like Eltab (whatever) might be using Reds as pawns in his own inscrutable games. Decades of magical suggestion and stroking greedy Red lust for magical power (and a lot of gold) might provide the handle by which Reds are subtly influenced towards serving this goal, seemingly with a plan they devised themselves.
Reds have long been quite skilled at competent paranoia, treachery, and deception; detecting their "traps" wouldn't be impossible but would be awfully difficult. Vangey might warn his purples to avoid depending on such items, the Chosen might not wish to suffer Thay's wrath (or play at their own games by knowing their enemy doesn't know that they know, etc), traditional enemies of the Reds (like the Harpers) might have insufficient mastery of magic to detect such skilled trapwork (outside of certain powerful individuals, some of whom would be viewed as grudge-bearing eccentrics with a penchant for complex conspiracy theories). |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 00:51:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.
And one of the key features of the Red Wal-Marts is that it gives Thay a chance to appear non-threatening and to get a toe-hold into the area. Those two things allow them to expand their influence, which is the overall goal of the Reds. That's why I like the idea -- if sneaking in doesn't work, get your victim to let you in the front door. 
Game or not, it's still 'out of character.' There's no need to appear non-threatening as the Reds could send out spies or magically cloaked agents to any area where they wish to establish an invisible control or want to utterly destroy. It's just a waste of time and resources; and it contradicts their 'badass' reputation. Leave the Wal-Marts to the Sembians. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 01:35:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.
A random rereading brought this to my attention. Care to share what those ideas are? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 02:28:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Game or not, it's still 'out of character.' There's no need to appear non-threatening as the Reds could send out spies or magically cloaked agents to any area where they wish to establish an invisible control or want to utterly destroy. It's just a waste of time and resources; and it contradicts their 'badass' reputation. Leave the Wal-Marts to the Sembians.
It's not really "out-of-character," though. We know Thayvians have long supported [though perhaps not actively condoned] the sale of potions and such. So Wooly's idea would just be an extension of prior trade initiatives that Thay already employed. So long as the magical items are not of military usefulness, I don't really see a problem here.
Besides, appearing non-threatening and open for increased trade might make some of the more potential "less-stable" trading partners [that I was speaking about earlier] susceptible to Thay's "open market" foreign trading policy.
After all, I've long suspected that some portion of the Red-Mart franshise would willingly adhere to the 76th Ferengi Rule of Acquisition:- "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies." And in that confusion, is the opportunity for both profit and subtle political manipulation.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.
A random rereading brought this to my attention. Care to share what those ideas are?
Hmmm. I suppose I can do that. Though I'll have to leave out some of the more campaign-specific material, since some of my players do tend to visit Candlekeep on occasion.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 17:19:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I agree that the Red-Mart strategy has great potential. And invites plenty of storytelling about Red Wizards. And is of course firmly established in post-2E canon. Oddly, all under the leadership of much the same Zulkir administration who would've violently opposed such an idea a few decades earlier.
I'm just saying that I disagree with the whole concept. On a personal level. I can't see Thayan Reds (Wizards, not wines) being welcomed in Faerūn; embassies of Thay? What're you smoking? Not saying Red-Marts aren't valid - just saying that I personally don't like 'em at all. New Thay just isn't what Old Thay aspired to be.
Back to the rigged magic items concept ... it's obvious. All the items crafted by Reds share some particular component (physical or mystical) which links them all together under the will of some wizard/being/artifact. They all serve as ritual links which allows the Reds to autoscry on demand; valuable magical toys are typically carried at all times and brought within secured and scry-warded areas. If some kind of Red Remote kill/override signal is sent it would likely involve all such magical items at once. Maybe there's lots of non-Red magics as well, sort of like a used car sales lot, enough to defray suspicions, add variety, and appeal to all budgets.
I can't say I see them strongly welcomed in other countries either, but then I wouldn't think our government would allow certain people to get past security checks for faith reasons while examining 3 year olds. Therefore, sometimes governments do things that the average citizen would quite simply balk at. As to them being embassies.. they effectively are embassies if the laws of their homeland are the laws in place on said ground.
Now, how prolific would they be? I could see where some countries might allow a small enclave to be established, even if its just to reap the non-magical benefits of an enclave. Lets face it, Thay was a nasty evil place filled with undead that were... tending gardens... and with wizards that were controlling weather to... properly grow crops. This is all documented since the creation of Thay. They are a veritable breadbasket of food (god, sadly, so often I see commonalities between Thay and the US, but the countries are so different too). Thay would also gladly be an exporter of basic things like wood, since they've cleared out many of their forests. In addition, if a barbaric horde were going to attack a town, and the Thayans offered to "clear up the problem so long as no questions are asked about what happened to the barbarians".... well, many governors might not balk too much about this either. Thus, an enclave might offer a measure of security to a community, meanwhile they take on those attackers and turn them into slaves. The enclaves should be seen as a much more subtle means of expanding their influence. While they may put traps into magic items, it would be a rare thing lest it be discovered, and the majority of their magic items are probably lesser items either created in training their apprentices or items gotten through either internal fights or external fights that they quite simply have no use for (so what better to do with them than sell them, make a good profit, and move on).
As to the various Zulkirs being happy with the enclaves... truly I don't think they all would be. The problem is that some schools are inclined to draw more students just based on their percieved power, and the enclaves would offer a bit of security that might help bolster numbers for those schools of magic. In fact, I don't see the school of necromancy liking them much at all, because demand for their spells and such will generally be shunned. However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 23:19:17
|
Your examples are valid, sleyvas, though I'm hesitant to draw comparisons between Thay (and her neighbours) and the complex sociopolitical considerations of certain RL nations, at least while I'm online. Most of what you say is about how foreign nations react to Thay, not Thay itself. I note that there are many nations in our world which could serve as rich breadbaskets but are instead torn by eternal conflict.
I would compare (pre-undead) Thay to our Ukraine instead (avoiding controversial comparisons with our superpowers and war-torn middle-east nations) -
These nations are both land corridors with terrain that is conveniently exploited by waves of invaders (barbarian hordes) who seek to plunder the riches of the "civilized" European/Faerūnian heartlands. Both nations have abundant natural resources and are capable of sustaining bountiful crops; yet while nature has been most generous to them, history most definitely has not. Both nations have a historical theme of endless oppression and exploitation by totalitarian governments (and the endless struggle against them), along with a history of endless conflict against neighbouring nations and ethnic persecution of their populations.
Thayan embassaries are certainly not impossible. Some places (like Baldur's Gate, Tantras, and the Moonsea) would seem almost eager to establish magic-trading relations with Thay and her Red Wizards. I have more trouble accepting Reds openly conducting their suspicious business in places like Cormyr and the Dales - much smaller places than our RL paranoid supernations, much easier to police consistently with an iron gauntlet.
Slightly OT -
Playing under 2E-ish rules, my Reds have access to "minor" schools of magic (Divination like everybody else; plus Illusion, Invocation, Necromancy, and Elemental Fire), basically allowing them to cast many spells (up to 3rd level) that their specializations would otherwise prohibit. I haven't quite figured out how to translate this into 3E or later class mechanics. Any suggestions? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:13:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:29:53
|
| Well, there's always all sorts of franchising for Thay collectibles. Very lucrative, collectors simply must have one of everything, y'know ... maybe the "traps" are impossible to detect because they require a resonant interaction between multiple items? Sort of a decentralized dweomer distributed across different items? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:42:16
|
| Collectibles? Hmm... I don't know. Sounds like enhanced Wal-Marts---which basically means the same thing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:47:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
If you're hidden, you can be discovered. If you can convince someone to let you in willingly, you don't need to waste all that energy hiding. That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:31:45
|
Your logic is true, Wooly. It just doesn't seem to agree with the earlier-established Red qualities of respecting nothing more than magical potency. The slithering serpent or trojan horse approach is undeniably effective, and adds that much more villainous twist to your dagger when you do finally act upon your treacherous plans ... it just doesn't seem as easily "in character" as Reds simply blasting down the gates with fire and sending legions of undead/demon weapons platforms into your cities instead. The strong take what the weak cannot defend, magical mastery is the ultimate measure of strength.
Why the sudden change in tactics? Was Thay feeling a little lonely? Did the game designers feel that Thay needed to be drawn out a little more? How would you encourage all of your divisive scheming Red factions into cooperating in such a grandoise plot? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:34:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
If you're hidden, you can be discovered. If you can convince someone to let you in willingly, you don't need to waste all that energy hiding. That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
Whereupon the notion of "hiding in plain sight" certainly has considerable meaning. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:38:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
You're running that risk either way -- whether you're nefariously hiding your secrets behind master spies and illusionists, or acting openly and attempting to lull gullible markets into a false sense of economic support. Discovery in either case results in problems for the foreign ambitions of these Red Wizards.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:43:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 05:35:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 05:46:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your logic is true, Wooly. It just doesn't seem to agree with the earlier-established Red qualities of respecting nothing more than magical potency. The slithering serpent or trojan horse approach is undeniably effective, and adds that much more villainous twist to your dagger when you do finally act upon your treacherous plans ... it just doesn't seem as easily "in character" as Reds simply blasting down the gates with fire and sending legions of undead/demon weapons platforms into your cities instead. The strong take what the weak cannot defend, magical mastery is the ultimate measure of strength.
Why the sudden change in tactics? Was Thay feeling a little lonely? Did the game designers feel that Thay needed to be drawn out a little more? How would you encourage all of your divisive scheming Red factions into cooperating in such a grandoise plot?
Well, as I understand it, the Red Wal-Marts weren't universally supported by the Zulkirs. All it would take is a couple of them to say "hey, this openly conquering other nations routine hasn't worked out so well, has it? Maybe we could try something with a chance of success?"
It would only take a handful of the Zulkirs to set this up. And honestly, I'd be surprised if all of those Zulkirs even thought it was a good idea. Some may have, some may have gone along on the off-chance that it worked, some may have joined in just to have something else going they could use against enemies, some may have joined to get potential rivals out of their hair....
Thay has not been a monolithic entity, acting in unison. Thay is your typical hotbed of Machiavellan politics, with everyone jockeying for position against everyone else. All it takes is one person to have a not unreasonable idea, and they'll have a lot of support, for a lot of reasons.
And we have seen Thay trying tactics other than outright conquest, as well. Off the top of my head, I'm recalling how they gained power in Mulmaster, and I'm recalling a female Red Wizard trying to take advantage of Azoun IV's wandering eyes. So it's not unprecedented or out of character for them to try yet another means of gathering power. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Nov 2010 05:48:33 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 05:57:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
You're running that risk either way -- whether you're nefariously hiding your secrets behind master spies and illusionists, or acting openly and attempting to lull gullible markets into a false sense of economic support. Discovery in either case results in problems for the foreign ambitions of these Red Wizards.
Exactly. That's partly the reason I said why need the silly shops when the spies would suffice and when the discovery for either means is equally possible. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 06:02:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery.
The spies and/or hidden agents (say, the trusted advisers of certain politicians or the politicians themselves) not yet discovered would be able to discredit any discovery. Hence the uselessness of the 'shops.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 06:06:07
|
quote:
Wooly Rupert
All it takes is one person to have a not unreasonable [but successful] idea, and they'll have a lot of support, for a lot of reasons [inspired by greed and power].
I do agree.
Hmmm, I totally forgot about Mulmaster (or was it Hillsfar? doesn't matter). Devious Red bastards.
Red-Marts being conceived by a single faction, then emerging as a "winning" strategy seems plausible enough. Why keep doing things the hard way when you can get more for less with the new approach?
I just personally don't like it, lol, not in my Realms, at least not on such a global scope. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 06:18:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, as I understand it, the Red Wal-Marts weren't universally supported by the Zulkirs. All it would take is a couple of them to say "hey, this openly conquering other nations routine hasn't worked out so well, has it? Maybe we could try something with a chance of success?"
It would only take a handful of the Zulkirs to set this up. And honestly, I'd be surprised if all of those Zulkirs even thought it was a good idea. Some may have, some may have gone along on the off-chance that it worked, some may have joined in just to have something else going they could use against enemies, some may have joined to get potential rivals out of their hair....
I'm not so sure that's completely the case. Unclean makes it pretty clear that there are definitive divisions between the various "factions" among the Zulkirs. The Tam versus Thrul feud, for example, and the other Zulkirs either allying with one or the other simply because they fear Tam or don't want to antagonise Aznar. The politics of the Red-Marts then seemed to become a somewhat lesser concern, especially after the death of Rhym. The Zulkirate was quickly becoming a battlefield of personalities, rather than competing ideologies. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 06:30:03
|
| How much control do the Zulkirs really have over their Reds? Especially outside of Thay? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 14:51:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery.
The spies and/or hidden agents (say, the trusted advisers of certain politicians or the politicians themselves) not yet discovered would be able to discredit any discovery. Hence the uselessness of the 'shops.'
So the secondary goals of gaining money, keeping rivals/apprentices busy or out of your hair, building good will, distributing items that may further help you or hinder foes, all of those things are utterly useless? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 14:57:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your examples are valid, sleyvas, though I'm hesitant to draw comparisons between Thay (and her neighbours) and the complex sociopolitical considerations of certain RL nations, at least while I'm online.
Slightly OT -
Playing under 2E-ish rules, my Reds have access to "minor" schools of magic (Divination like everybody else; plus Illusion, Invocation, Necromancy, and Elemental Fire), basically allowing them to cast many spells (up to 3rd level) that their specializations would otherwise prohibit. I haven't quite figured out how to translate this into 3E or later class mechanics. Any suggestions?
Understood on the comparing, and I'll just say one other thing on that subject just to show where my mind was. I see the two cultures as very similiar at their base... how to say it... drives??? (i.e. revolutionary, allowing for personal freedom for those with stake in the country <for some, i.e. Mulans in Thay, landowning males in early America>, and a willingness to band together in a coalition if needed for shared defense. However, they're vastly different in how they would employ their "engines", which to me is just really interesting. Its kind of like someone I recently heard comparing the mechanics behind the nazi movement and communism (two highly government oriented means of running a country, but a lot different in their methodology <neither of which do I like, but just to get my thoughts out there>).
On your off topic thing - 3E red wizards can learn spells from schools that they have as prohibited schools, up until such time as they become red wizards. Even after being red wizards, they can still cast these spells, even though they are a prohibited spell, because they learned them before becoming so intensely specialized. There's also some feats (very hard to get mind you) in some of the books that allow a wizard to open access to some schools of magic that are currrently prohibited to them (I did a build on an ex-red wizard in Damara from the twilight riders, he was a paladin / former red wizard according to lore from bloodstone lands, and in building him out I had him use such feats in order to be able to cast simulacrum so that he could create apprentices to work in his circle). Yes, I do know that technically the paladin / ex-red wizard should have lost his red wizard class abilities because he was no longer evil, but I felt it made him an interesting NPC without overpowering him (and there's much easier ways to get the ability to have circle casting than becoming a red wizard for a good character... i.e. Hathrans and the Halruaan class). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 15:09:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your logic is true, Wooly. It just doesn't seem to agree with the earlier-established Red qualities of respecting nothing more than magical potency. The slithering serpent or trojan horse approach is undeniably effective, and adds that much more villainous twist to your dagger when you do finally act upon your treacherous plans ... it just doesn't seem as easily "in character" as Reds simply blasting down the gates with fire and sending legions of undead/demon weapons platforms into your cities instead. The strong take what the weak cannot defend, magical mastery is the ultimate measure of strength.
Why the sudden change in tactics? Was Thay feeling a little lonely? Did the game designers feel that Thay needed to be drawn out a little more? How would you encourage all of your divisive scheming Red factions into cooperating in such a grandoise plot?
I would say basically this... the blast their way in method would be common for the schools of evocation, conjuration, and necromancy... all of which were the more influential and powerful schools being mentioned in the 1st edition version of Thay. However, those same schools caused what? The Salamander War, which caused a lot of strife within Thay. After this debacle, the other Zulkirs saw some ground for movement and expansion of their school's power (and probably an upsurge of support from commoners), plus a means to refill their coffers so that they could rebuild a lot of what burned. Given that wood is not common in Thay and the salamanders probably burned a lot of houses, at least for a short term getting wood imports cheaply was probably a highly sought after thing. Thus, the enclaves come to power, probably initially for trade in simple goods like food, manpower for jobs that locals would not enjoy (via slaves), security against aggressors, and finally through minor magic items sales. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 15:27:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
How much control do the Zulkirs really have over their Reds? Especially outside of Thay?
Outside of Thay? I think it would really depend on just how much a vested interest a particular Zulkir has in any regions beyond their country's borders.
Alternatively, if a rival Zulkir looked to be devoting him/herself to some kind of agenda in, say, Sembia or Cormyr, for example... I'd assume the opposing Zulkir would either try to sabotage his/her rival's efforts, or extend his/her power at home and attempt to exploit his/her rival Zulkir's apparent inattentiveness to matters within Thay.
In any case, the resulting Zulkirate authority over the Red Wizards would probably wax and wane accordingly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 16:31:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.
Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'
That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.
But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.
That depends on the nature of the discovery. If the Thayans were well-established, they'd have a variety of ways of dealing with this discovery -- not the least of which would be using local authorities to deal with and/or discredit those who made the discovery.
The spies and/or hidden agents (say, the trusted advisers of certain politicians or the politicians themselves) not yet discovered would be able to discredit any discovery. Hence the uselessness of the 'shops.'
So the secondary goals of gaining money, keeping rivals/apprentices busy or out of your hair, building good will, distributing items that may further help you or hinder foes, all of those things are utterly useless?
YES. With an emphasis on utterly. Gaining money through the shops? No. They have mines, have thieves who are at the same time practitioners of the Art, engage in black markets, sell slaves...the list goes on... Keeping rivals busy through the shops? No. The Reds are pretty smart to devise several other ways to keep their rivals occupied. If you read the HL trilogy, you should know what I mean. Building good will through the shops? Now that's funny. Good and Thay can never be used in one phrase. If deception is all they want, as I mentioned, they can utilize their spies. Distributing items that may further help them or hinder their foes through the shops? What for? The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 17:02:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough.
Obviously not, because the shops that you so despise are canon. As is Thay trying other methods of gaining power outside of Thay. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Nov 2010 17:04:14 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 17:14:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough.
Obviously not, because the shops that you so despise are canon. As is Thay trying other methods of gaining power outside of Thay.
And, again, 'thas further grounding in Unclean -- as Tam starts positioning his players for his "mad-power-grab," we receive a little insight into how important the whole concept of the Red-Marts has become in Thayvian politics. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 17:34:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The spies and mind-reading-immune agents are more than enough.
Obviously not, because the shops that you so despise are canon. As is Thay trying other methods of gaining power outside of Thay.
Just because 'tis canon doesn't mean I have to like it. The use of spies to further the Reds' goals looks not enough because WotC has already utilized the Wal-Marts, making it appear (ridiculously) useful when it's in fact bootless. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
