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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 04:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Well, there's no doubt in my mind now that Szass is one of the most interesting evil bigshots in Faerūn. (And to think that the very first time I ever read about Szass, more than 20 years ago, I thought to myself: "The Zulkir of Necromancy is a just a vain little Mary-Sue lich who uses a veneer of illusion to stay alive in civilized Thay. How predictable. <yawn>")
The first time I read about him, I thought he deserved much, much 'screen time.' That's why I bought The Haunted Lands without second thoughts. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 04:39:37
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Wow. So many.
I like the Arcane Brotherhood, Red Wizards of Thay (Pre Szass Tam taking over them), Iron Throne (And Rundeen), Demonfei for hottness that is Sarya.
Hm.
But over all? Likely tie between Arcane Brotherhood, and Twisted Rune for some old reason. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 18:41:23
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| I know very little about the (popularly evil) Arcane Brotherhood. Which tomes contain lore about them? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 22:44:04
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| Most substantially, Volo's Guide to the North (and thence The North) and the 3E Lords of Darkness. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 23:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I know very little about the (popularly evil) Arcane Brotherhood. Which tomes contain lore about them?
You'll find that RAS's novels often feature some curious tidbits about the Brotherhood as well.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 00:39:19
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I only just scanned through this thread real quick - I don't want to dominate the forums so I avoid any that aren't of interest to me. One item of note caught my eye, though, and lead me to a slightly modified variation on that theme of my own....
What if Larloch was the one who directed Bane, Baal, and Myrkul in their goals? Larloch may have been Myrkul's teacher, from whom he received the info necessary to put their plans into motion (like where the 'Lost Gods' lie).
Certainly not canon, but fun to think about. Then we get to imagine what Larloch's goals may have been to have steered them down that path? With his far-sightedness, he may have done this for very good reasons (perhaps a 'Cyric-like' individual would have arose much sooner?)
EDIT: And now that I have gone-back and read the thread topic, I can't say I can pick a favorite - I like them all for various reasons. Three worth mentioning are the Amalgamation from the City of Splendors novel, and the new Eminence of Araunt and Warlock Knights of Vassa. All of those groups I can use (with tweaks, of course). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 00:47:42 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:20:23
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Hmmm. Your idea leads to vast lichy conspiracy theories which offer a lot of interesting possibilities. Larloch may have engineered Myrkul's ascension in the hopes of somehow influencing the God of Death, perhaps even in a tragically failed attempt at regaining his lost life. Then again, this sort of thinking might lead one to assume that Larloch somehow installed any (or all) of the gods who ascended, it might even explain why Cyric is such a yutz and goes insane after his new mantle of divinity breaks Larloch's programming.
Very amusing possibilities. Not impossible, but awfully hard to swallow. Wouldn't Ao smell Larloch-tainted mortals from a mile away and automatically reject their applications of divine promotion? Larloch enjoys a very special status and may have even clandestinely sipped some divine energy (as evidenced by the many worshippers he has at Candlekeep), but no matter how easily he can smear armies of mortals he's still quite feeble against the powers of angry gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:50:06
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Think about it - Larloch is more powerful then most exarchs/demigods. He could probably even hold his own with a lesser god, at least for awhile.
Maybe Larloch is a follower of the old adage "Its better to rule in hell then serve in heaven".
If he were to become a god (and if Szass can, then Larloch SURELY can), he would then become embroiled in all their divine plots, drama, and intrigues - something he cares absolutely nothing for.
He pretty-much 'rules the roost' on Toril - why be just a minor player in a new arena? he can accomplish so much more simply by staying where he is.
Looking at it that way, maybe he pushed someone else into the job because he didn't want it (I've already theorized elsewhere that Jergal is smart enough to avoid his 'down time' by handing-off the crown when the Dusk Lord's time comes due).
Or maybe.... Larloch isn't Mstryl's Chosen at all.
Maybe he's Ao's.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 01:52:17 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Three worth mentioning are the Amalgamation from the City of Splendors novel...
Sorry, but for me they're one of the most boring, plainly uninteresting evil cabal I've ever read about. A group of people and creatures with grafts-filled bodies aiming for world domination?! Hah, give a walking bag of bones anytime! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:02:17
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Ah, but you misquote me. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Three worth mentioning are the Amalgamation from the City of Splendors novel, and the new Eminence of Araunt and Warlock Knights of Vassa. All of those groups I can use (with tweaks, of course).
Accent, mine. 
The Amalgamation is a springboard for something else I am working on for my Homebrew, which has evolved well beyond just a Realms-mod. I am going to tie them to my ideas about Morphic Blood - it will be somewhat similar to what the Yuan-ti do with their blood (create abominations), but I'm connecting it all to a group of hidden, secretive Aberrations (and I've rolled all of the Aberrations into a single race now, which I discussed in another thread).
Basically, infusions of Morphic Blood allow for inter-breeding, grafts, and shape-shifting (dependent upon the amounts used, and how its introduced). So without a trace of that blood, a graft simply does not work (and the partitioner is deemed 'unworthy').
I've said it before and I'll say it again - there is no such thing as a 'bad idea', only poor implementation.
If that doesn't work for you, then do something else with it... but don't just throw it away wholesale because you don't like the canon version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 02:03:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If that doesn't work for you, then do something else with it... but don't just throw it away wholesale because you don't like the canon version.
Fair enough. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:48:08
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The opposite of that coin, however, is the Larloch is really quite a boring guy once you boil it down. Unstoppable stats and well-established "mechanical engineering" to prop him up on his mighty pedestal. But he's really got hardly any history (his history is well established, but mostly through piecework association of his origins and what he "must have done" in his time, rather than firsthand experience) and hardly has any character (again, beyond the tacit assumptions behind what sort of creature he is - his main defining character trait so far being that he remains largely detached the from world and ensures his privacy isn't disturbed).
Don't get me wrong, I like Larloch. I love Larloch, he should be a god and is eminently more qualified for the position than simpering little Karsus was.
But there is just so much more that could be done to make him who we all really want him to be. He's evolved into the same <yawn> predictably invincible kind of fixture in the Realms as Elminster was for a long time, just give him some ill-defined "cheater" powers from the gods as a little insurance against accidental death at the hands of lich killers. More worrying, Larloch almost appears to be a pariah. The authors dare not touch him and disturb his precarious position because they'd either "fail" to make Larloch live up to expectations, or far worse, make him so inhumanly awesome that he'd have to be "retired" from the setting before he completely dominates it.
Szass can avoid these perils by simple virtue of being more human and having some rather glaring human character faults. So he's easy to work with (from a creative viewpoint) without getting out of control. Larloch cannot be humanized, nothing more can be said about him without causing a lot of ripples. It's okay for the Thay to be an undead land ruled by a crazed lich with almost godly powers. It's probably gonna cause problems with the fans if all of Faerūn turns into a land that - one way or another - is also ruled by a crazed lich with almost godly powers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:01:33
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World domination is below Larloch. He could have done that far too long ago.
I disagree on your take that Larloch cannot be humanized. He used to be someone possessing both body and soul, a 'complete person,' for want of a better term. Liches lost a considerable part of their humanity the moment they embraced the cold touch of lichdom; but a shred of humanity (as to how small I cannot tell) there remains in them. Sammaster and Tam had gone mad. But all their faults and all their ambitions speak greatly of how human-like they still think and feel. And if these two lesser liches can be humanized, I see no reason why Laloch can't. It'll be a great challenge for an author to undertake such an endeavor. But 'tis a challenge I'd be happy to see one face. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Nov 2010 03:05:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Three worth mentioning are the Amalgamation from the City of Splendors novel...
Sorry, but for me they're one of the most boring, plainly uninteresting evil cabal I've ever read about. A group of people and creatures with grafts-filled bodies aiming for world domination?! Hah, give a walking bag of bones anytime!
Eh. I liked them. And Ed and Elaine did discuss the Amalgamation somewhat when the book was released. Their replies are compiled here at Candlekeep. Also, I know I've got a question for Ed pending on the group itself. And Elaine did also, at one point, consider writing a DRAGON article on the Amalgamation. Too bad that never eventuated.
'Tis truly a shame that a lot of the Amalgamation subplot was cut from the novel, though. I think we all would've loved to have read more about them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
'Tis truly a shame that a lot of the Amalgamation subplot was cut from the novel, though. I think we all would've loved to have read more about them.
Maybe, maybe not.
While I like how vividly was Waterdeep pictured in City of Splendors and how long-staying characters donned significant and cameo roles, the plot and the villains disappointed and bored me to no ends. It's actually my least favorite of Elaine's works; and my second least fave of Ed's. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 20:39:07
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While the subject-matter was 'iffy' (and that's probably due to the amalgamation sub-plot being down-sized), I found it enjoyable. It didn't 'change the world', and it did reference a past RSE - kudos for that. Many authors seem to neglect that.
What it did was give me a better understanding of how Waterdeep works, so I suppose if I wasn't already a fan of the setting I may have found it lacking.
However, those are my two of my favorite FR authors, and their writing-styles are highly complimentary. I won't go into it again on yet-another thread, but there is one particular series written by multiple authors who's styles (and takes on the characters) were so disparate that it was a complete disconnect for me.
And that nearly ruined what should have been a very enjoyable series. 
Some authors go together like wine and cheese, and others like peanut butter and fish. Not a knock on anyone's talent - its just that putting together good authors isn't always a recipe for a good story.
And now back to the OP.....
There are many FR organizations that I don't find very interesting, but as a DM I find useful; The Kraken Society, for example. I don't want to read a book about them, but I like when they are slipped into other stories as 'dealers in information'. They can't hold my interest, but they make for great 'backdrop'. Everything has its place - Ed truly crafted a wonderous thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 20:39:55 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 03:42:44
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I think the Kraken Society has potentials. I would like to read a novel about them. But I don't want them to be a 'main' evil/power group. More like an indispensable ally. Perhaps of the Red Wizards in or out of Thay, or the Shades. (I know they allied with the Zhents. But I really don't like that used-to-be cockroach-led organization, so I'd rather see the KS offer alliance to the two other power groups I've mentioned).
Anyway, is the Kraken that they worship still alive? Was it ever mentioned in novels? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 04:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think the Kraken Society has potentials. I would like to read a novel about them. But I don't want them to be a 'main' evil/power group. More like an indispensable ally. Perhaps of the Red Wizards in or out of Thay, or the Shades. (I know they allied with the Zhents. But I really don't like that used-to-be cockroach-led organization, so I'd rather see the KS offer alliance to the two other power groups I've mentioned).
Anyway, is the Kraken that they worship still alive? Was it ever mentioned in novels?
Slarkrethel hasn't had a lot of air time, pardon the pun. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2010 05:06:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 05:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think the Kraken Society has potentials. I would like to read a novel about them. But I don't want them to be a 'main' evil/power group. More like an indispensable ally. Perhaps of the Red Wizards in or out of Thay, or the Shades. (I know they allied with the Zhents. But I really don't like that used-to-be cockroach-led organization, so I'd rather see the KS offer alliance to the two other power groups I've mentioned).
Anyway, is the Kraken that they worship still alive? Was it ever mentioned in novels?
Slarkrethel hasn't had a lot of air time, pardon the pun.
Indeed. And there hasn't been much on his or the Society's status in 4e.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 05:48:49
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| A shame. I actually would like to see how they would 'deal' with the aquatic Abolethic Sovereignty, and vice versa. If not the Society, Slarkrethel at least. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 07:11:58
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
A shame. I actually would like to see how they would 'deal' with the aquatic Abolethic Sovereignty, and vice versa. If not the Society, Slarkrethel at least.
Hmmm. I seem to recall Markustay tinkering with a few ideas about a "Kraken Sovereignty." Apparently he was intent on blending the Abolethic Sovereignty into the Kraken Society. I only remembered because it got me thinking of something similar for my own campaign. [I'll have to find my notes, now.  ] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 15:59:20
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You painstakingly take notes on all of our notes, Sage? Including those of the Lady Herald and other such noble personages?
The gods must surely hate you to have assigned such an impossibly Herculean task. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 16:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You painstakingly take notes on all of our notes, Sage?
Only when I find something intriguing enough to record [which is just about every day, really ]. And, oft-times, it's almost always something Markustay has posted. I'm now inclined to believe that he and I have very similar habits when it comes to tinkering with existing lore, not to mention combining stuff from other worlds/settings with Realmslore. It's always a pleasure.
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Including those of the Lady Herald and other such noble personages?
Oh, very much so. In fact, the majority of the walls in one of my small libraries, is plastered with tidbits picked up from the Lady Hooded One, Krash, Steven Schend, Elaine Cunningham, Erik Scott de Bie, the Brothers' James, and a few others. I call it my "Wall o' Lore."
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The gods must surely hate you to have assigned such an impossibly Herculean task.
That's what I get for assigning myself the title of "Loremaster Most High." Oghma's work is never done.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 17:15:31
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I too have found many of Markus' contributions infinitely informative, often creative, and always consistently well reasoned. Far more consistently than much of the canonical lore. Even though I don't always agree (or strongly disagree) with any particular piece of Markuslore fitting in my concept of the Realms "as-is", it is always worthy of consideration and has several times inspired new pseudo-Markuslore of it's own.
OP time ...
I never thought of the Kraken Society being at all interesting. Though I do appreciate the approach of leaving it somewhat undefined while randomly dispersing fleshy tidbits of lore throughout the novels. I am sadly a bit behind the modern trends and know virtually nothing about Aboleths beyond their monster entries. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Nov 2010 17:17:00 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 18:13:56
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Just Wow. 
To be honest, I would feel almost as strongly against people accepting everything I say as 'their canon', as I am about people excepting official canon as 'their canon'.
Everyone should have their own version of the Realms, based on the ideas (official or not) that they like, and that work for their group. Any lore - homebrew or otherwise - is there just to provide you with a springboard. How you take-off from there is up to you.
And at least 95% of my ideas are based on either stuff I read, or the ideas of others I have read here. This place is amazing for 'brain-storming'. Pat yourselves on the back, not me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 22:18:13
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quote:
Signboard posted in Baldur's Gate
I'm hiring brave and sturdy adventurers who are willing to undertake a little raid on Candlekeep. Specifically to gain entry to the High Loremaster's inner sanctum and procure as many tomes as they can carry from his sacred "Wall o' Lore". Be wary of any scribes, monks, and sages encountered within the keep, particularly the more venerated ones or the strange wooly blue guardian beast which roams the halls, for they know secrets even the gods have forgotten and can command the very cosmos to bend to their will.
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[/Ayrik] |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 22:36:58
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I find Slarkrethel fascinating; the level of power he seems capable of (and poised to take) is scary in scope.
My favorite baddies (as a fan) are probably the Twisted Rune- something about the way that they totally avoid the limelight while managing to control sooooo much is exciting. As a DM, I love the Zhents; they are ubiquitous (you can place them anywhere) and if the PCs have a shred of sense, they will realize that one never actually 'defeats' them- you just set them back for a time, meaning that they can be encountered again and again. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 23:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
My favorite baddies (as a fan) are probably the Twisted Rune- something about the way that they totally avoid the limelight while managing to control sooooo much is exciting.
Indeed. I am wondering though why WotC categorized them as a "minor" group only. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lords of Evil
