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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 08:24:33
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So, I'm sure most of us have favorite villains in Faerun, but who's our favorite villain group?
Any group counts at all in this case, even if it's just one of the evil religions. For me it's a toss up between the Zhents and the Red Wizards: they're both sort of multipurpose villain organizations, able to do crime, evil armies, monsters, wizards, and mercantile/political plots to have the characters to unravel, and they're also both full of recognizable villains the PC's can both fear/aim to bring down.
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"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 08:28:43
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Of course...the Shades. Too 'kewl' and too difficult - if not impossible - to rid of.
Second on the list is the Red Wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 08:37:06
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| Bregan D'Aerthe for me |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 09 Nov 2010 08:37:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 09:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Though I'll admit also, that the Abolethic Sovereignty is growing on me too.
Same here. Their form of tormenting 'people' is the other name of 'sheer cruelty.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 11:18:14
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I like the fey'ri and the Eldreth Veluuthra, meself.  |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Nov 2010 11:18:27 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 12:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the fey'ri and the Eldreth Veluuthra, meself.
Incidentally, what the Eldreth Veluuthra have always wanted is the exact opposite of what I've always wanted: they're dedicated to the removal of all humans from Faerûn; while I fervently wish to have an elves-free Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 12:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Though I'll admit also, that the Abolethic Sovereignty is growing on me too.
Same here. Their form of tormenting 'people' is the other name of 'sheer cruelty.'
Actually, it has more to do with the fact that I'm a firm proponent of all-things-Lovecraft, and I like what Cordell has done with the Sovereignty in the 4e Realms. Plus, it's just such a "cool" sounding name.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 12:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Though I'll admit also, that the Abolethic Sovereignty is growing on me too.
Same here. Their form of tormenting 'people' is the other name of 'sheer cruelty.'
Plus, it's just such a "cool" sounding name.
Agreed again. In fact, I think it's the coolest sounding name among all the villainous groups, even cooler than 'Red Wizards.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 14:22:04
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At the moment:
1. Zhentarim
2. Red Wizards
3. Daemonfey
Tren |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 14:29:46
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I might actually like elves should they all turn into demons.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Nov 2010 14:30:29 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 15:42:41
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| Let's kick it old school...the Malaugrym and the Night Parade! Of course, all those mentioned so far are awesome too. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 16:08:36
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| The Night Parade deserves an 'honorable mention.' That's primarily because I'm always partial to Netherese. Though how I wish they picked a cooler, more sinister-sounding name. Night is fine, but not that original. The problem is with Parade. It sounds too 'garish.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 00:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Night Parade deserves an 'honorable mention.' That's primarily because I'm always partial to Netherese. Though how I wish they picked a cooler, more sinister-sounding name. Night is fine, but not that original. The problem is with Parade. It sounds too 'garish.'
Hmmm. I'll have to re-read the novel, I think. Because I never really was all that interested in the Night Parade as an organisation, but they often receive much favour from Realms fans. Maybe I missed something?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 04:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Night Parade deserves an 'honorable mention.' That's primarily because I'm always partial to Netherese. Though how I wish they picked a cooler, more sinister-sounding name. Night is fine, but not that original. The problem is with Parade. It sounds too 'garish.'
Hmmm. I'll have to re-read the novel, I think. Because I never really was all that interested in the Night Parade as an organisation, but they often receive much favour from Realms fans. Maybe I missed something?
I'm not sure if there's much. That they are a group of Netherese arcanists who had emigrated from the Prime Material Plane to the Demiplane of Nightmares sounds cool enough.
I say they should have been given more 'screen time,' not just a stand-alone Harpers novel. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 04:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Night Parade deserves an 'honorable mention.' That's primarily because I'm always partial to Netherese. Though how I wish they picked a cooler, more sinister-sounding name. Night is fine, but not that original. The problem is with Parade. It sounds too 'garish.'
Hmmm. I'll have to re-read the novel, I think. Because I never really was all that interested in the Night Parade as an organisation, but they often receive much favour from Realms fans. Maybe I missed something?
I'm not sure if there's much. That they are a group of Netherese arcanists who had emigrated from the Prime Material Plane to the Demiplane of Nightmares sounds cool enough.
I say they should have been given more 'screen time,' not just a stand-alone Harpers novel.
They've got an entry in the Villains' Lorebook too, as I recall.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 04:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Night Parade deserves an 'honorable mention.' That's primarily because I'm always partial to Netherese. Though how I wish they picked a cooler, more sinister-sounding name. Night is fine, but not that original. The problem is with Parade. It sounds too 'garish.'
Hmmm. I'll have to re-read the novel, I think. Because I never really was all that interested in the Night Parade as an organisation, but they often receive much favour from Realms fans. Maybe I missed something?
I'm not sure if there's much. That they are a group of Netherese arcanists who had emigrated from the Prime Material Plane to the Demiplane of Nightmares sounds cool enough.
I say they should have been given more 'screen time,' not just a stand-alone Harpers novel.
They've got an entry in the Villains' Lorebook too, as I recall.
I meant novel screen time. Sourcebooks are fine. But 'tis in novels where we SEE the complexities of the characters. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 17:34:32
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Unsurprisingly, I happen to like the Daemonfey quite a bit, as evidenced by having included a fey'ri character in Downshadow. One who will return, if I have anything to say about it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 22:19:51
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I'm astonished that nobody's mentioned Drow yet. But they're not my vote. Too much haughty veneer, not enough manly grit. I heartily agree with dennis: the world would be better without elves, though I can accept the demonic halfbred ones.
My vote would be the Phaerimm. Sadly given rather short shrift in the novels, and thus defeated (mostly by repeated author/DM bias abusing initiative rolls after Teleporting, it appears to me), after but a single paltry little trilogy ... but I think if they could be a serious threat to the entire Netherese empire (and perhaps the world) which required the intervention of the Sharn and continent-altering measures to halt then they should realistically be able to dust off the single city of Shade for lunch and a couple of little tribes of quivering elves hiding behind mythals would be barely enough to get their blood pumping. Angry Zulkirs and gargantuan dracoliches are mighty impressive, I'll admit, but Phaerimm just keep on getting stronger by eating whatever magic and mages you throw at them. Even the anti-Phaerimm-biased novels had to reluctantly recruit every single Elven High Mage and Chosen of Mystra available (and kill quite a few of them off) - and the intrepid heroes, of course, and a little divine intervention, and the combined military/magical might of a few nations, and a little backstabbing treachery from the Shades - to get the Phaerimm outbreak back under control. The initial Phaerimm outbreak which hadn't really gotten a chance to actually get moving in full gear.
Of course Phaerimm are awfully strange and ugly but not quite strange and ugly enough to be Lovecraftian cool. And most people go for the sexy evil power groups these days anyhow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Nov 2010 22:41:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm astonished that nobody's mentioned Drow yet.
I suspect that may be due to the fact that we simply have more exotic and evil races to choose from, than when the Realms first began official publication.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:42:08
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| Do Illithids count as a power group then? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm astonished that nobody's mentioned Drow yet. But they're not my vote. Too much haughty veneer, not enough manly grit. I heartily agree with dennis: the world would be better without elves, though I can accept the demonic halfbred ones.
My vote would be the Phaerimm. Sadly given rather short shrift in the novels, and thus defeated (mostly by repeated author/DM bias abusing initiative rolls after Teleporting, it appears to me), after but a single paltry little trilogy ... but I think if they could be a serious threat to the entire Netherese empire (and perhaps the world) which required the intervention of the Sharn and continent-altering measures to halt then they should realistically be able to dust off the single city of Shade for lunch and a couple of little tribes of quivering elves hiding behind mythals would be barely enough to get their blood pumping. Angry Zulkirs and gargantuan dracoliches are mighty impressive, I'll admit, but Phaerimm just keep on getting stronger by eating whatever magic and mages you throw at them. Even the anti-Phaerimm-biased novels had to reluctantly recruit every single Elven High Mage and Chosen of Mystra available (and kill quite a few of them off) - and the intrepid heroes, of course, and a little divine intervention, and the combined military/magical might of a few nations, and a little backstabbing treachery from the Shades - to get the Phaerimm outbreak back under control. The initial Phaerimm outbreak which hadn't really gotten a chance to actually get moving in full gear.
Of course Phaerimm are awfully strange and ugly but not quite strange and ugly enough to be Lovecraftian cool. And most people go for the sexy evil power groups these days anyhow.
I must give them an 'honorable mention' as well. For a small group to destroy an entire empire – a powerful magical empire, that is – one can't help but get awed. And that they cast spells as fast as lightning is a plus too. The only thing I don't like about them is their goal. Consume all magic destroy the entire world? Nah, that's yet another cliché.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Do Illithids count as a power group then?
Yes. But in the RotA they were easily controlled by the phaerimm. So I don't give them that much consideration. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:23:25
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Hey, you can't argue with a formula for success that works. That's what keeps franchises and cliché villainy going as strong as ever ... but yeah, the Phaerimm are actually really childish and corny when you think about it that way. Just a bunch of angry nukes buried under the shifting desert sands.
Well then, I'll offer a vote for Zsass Tam instead. A one-man "organization" who (kinda) took out the Zulkirs single-handedly and assumed much of their power. He's got all of Thay, his dread circle things, a generous Monty Haul complete with a handful of ridiculous artifacts, undead armies galore, respectably dangerous henchmen, his own trilogy, and that sweet secret deal with Bane. True, he's got ambitions to destroy the entire world (along with the rest of existence) but he does plan to reformat it afterwards. And long before he can realize his ultimate plan he's got to focus a lot of other little things like keeping his stuff intact while the rest of the world constantly attempts to stop or destroy him. Pretty interesting possibilities, I think. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 00:31:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
..and that sweet secret deal with Bane.
I'm actually curious with that. I know he has no plan of doing his part of the bargain, and I don't think he'll succeed in ascending to godhood. But I wonder how would he dare defy Bane when the time for payment comes?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 00:34:36
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He's probably betting that he has better chances of surviving the thousand years than Bane does (especially if he himself eventually attacks Bane when and where it really hurts, probably involving some other divine agency as an assassin). Look at the scorecard for Times Previously Died: Szass 1½, Bane 3+. That's 2-to-1 odds right there.
He probably doesn't really care anyways, power today, worry tomorrow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 01:04:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 01:10:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
He's probably betting that he has better chances of surviving the thousand years than Bane does (especially if he himself eventually attacks Bane when and where it really hurts, probably involving some other divine agency as an assassin). Look at the scorecard for Times Previously Died: Szass 1½, Bane 3+. That's 2-to-1 odds right there.
He probably doesn't really care anyways, power today, worry tomorrow.
Actually that somehow connects to my 'theory' on Tam's elevation to Thay's sole sovereignty:
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I've been thinking about a BIG WHAT IF?!.....
What if it's actually Larloch who CONQUERED Thay? That Szass Tam was simply his tool for this end. Tam had done a few 'errands' for him before. And maybe this is just one of those. And I don't think Tam would have any other choice on the matter, either, as he feared Larloch. To quote page 4 of Netheril: Empire of Magic, “A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing."
Perhaps Tam was just acting that he wanted to erect the Dread Rings so no one else would suspect that Larloch's 'bony hands' were working behind the scene. Mayhap he asked Bane instead of Larloch to help him after the SP because the Great Lich went to an unknown world via one of his portals. Maybe he didn't abandoned his 'duty' despite the devastating effects of the SP because he knew that to do so only meant destruction from the very hands of Larloch.
And maybe Larloch's purpose to have Thay in his solid grip is to establish a BASE in that corner of Toril---for yet another unknown purpose.
Maybe Tam is not afraid of Bane because he's got Larloch to back him up should things get messy...
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 02:02:28
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You have an even more evil turn of mind than I do.
Coincidentally enough, I recently re-read that same passage while brushing up on Netherlore. But I interpreted the racing of Szass' absent heart as indicating a sense of anticipation rather than fear. After all, Szass would have prepared himself as well as possible for his encounter with Larloch (and being no fool he knows damned well that Larloch might possibly choose to destroy him with little effort and less provocation). But now the moment had arrived when the knowledge he hoped to attain would finally be revealed! I'd say Szass has some big crystal balls and "lives" for the visceral excitement these moments of triumph deliver in his otherwise bleak undying existence; he likes to live large and play for big stakes. Thus perhaps his seeming nonchalance about gambling his soul with Bane.
And yes ... maybe Larloch too has a certain need to liven up his dreary passage of years with something new and bold and dangerous. Maybe the last jaded sparks of vitality remaining within liches need to flare up and burn away the dusty weight of centuries from time to time to prevent their essence from decaying into demilichdom or madness. It could be the tragic price of immortality one endures when becoming a lich, perhaps a limitation of the liching process itself or the imperfect human vessel from which it begins. It could even be an intentionally designed or "programmed" flaw which fuels their passion for continued existence and their endless pursuit of magical perfection.
Or these guys could both just be stark raving bonkers.
I would be more inclined to believe that Szass and Larloch both have their own agendas and each believes he has manipulated whatever mutually beneficial arrangement they have to best serve his own interests before the other - but if a situation arises in which their goals are contrary or inimical then it is Larloch's more masterfully subtle manipulations which will likely prevail. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 02:31:47 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 11:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Coincidentally enough, I recently re-read that same passage while brushing up on Netherlore. But I interpreted the racing of Szass' absent heart as indicating a sense of anticipation rather than fear. After all, Szass would have prepared himself as well as possible for his encounter with Larloch (and being no fool he knows damned well that Larloch might possibly choose to destroy him with little effort and less provocation).
That's another way of looking at it.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Or these guys could both just be stark raving bonkers.
They have always been mad. No sane person, undead or living, would dare do what they've done...
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2010 : 23:13:08
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| Well, there's no doubt in my mind now that Szass is one of the most interesting evil bigshots in Faerûn. (And to think that the very first time I ever read about Szass, more than 20 years ago, I thought to myself: "The Zulkir of Necromancy is a just a vain little Mary-Sue lich who uses a veneer of illusion to stay alive in civilized Thay. How predictable. <yawn>") |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Nov 2010 23:20:12 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 14:01:06
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for me it's the Zhentarim, but not the version from the novels, and pre-Fzoul's rule
followed by the Knights of the Shield and the Arcane Brotherhood
and the Shades and Red Wizards, but my take on them is far from canon |
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Lords of Evil
