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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 04:17:52
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That is house rules. I want the math of how you did it.
As in
This item does
SPELL X at caster level 1
SPELL B at caster level 2
SPELL C at caster level 3
For total XP and GP cost of 10,000 gp. We farted really loud, and knocked off the gp and xp cost to a mere -500 gp. We made money and xp by making said item.
Do you understand what I mean? I know the house rules. I want to know exactly, on paper, how you came to terms with what your doing and how it cost XP and GP wise. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 07:50:33
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Uh, Sure, I'll go get it... there are a few items that does this, but I'll go get them...
I guess I'll be editing this post as I add to it, or something...
Item "Buffy"
This includes the 1.25x cost for multiple items. These are NOT the prices the artificer paid to make these, I think she has two stacking 75% feats (that would be Extraordinary Artisan and Magic Artisan). I
Resist Energy, Castings per day: 4, caster level 1, spell level 1, base cost 1800, we paid 506, xp cost: 34
Avoid Planar Effects, 1/day, caster level 2, spell level 2, base cost 1800, we paid 506, xp cost: 34
Tremorsense, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base cost 1800, we paid 506, xp cost: 34
Polymorph 1/day, caster level 8, spell level 4, base cost 14,400, we paid 4050, xp cost: 270
Xorn Movement, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 5, base cost 4500, we paid 1266, xp cost: 85
guided shot, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 1, base cost 450, we paid 127, xp cost: 9
Wind tunnel, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 5, base cost 2250, we paid 633, xp cost: 43
Sheltered Vitality, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 4, base cost 3600, we paid 1013, xp cost: 68
Heroics 5/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base cost 4500, we paid 1266, xp cost: 85
Stoneskin, 2/day, caster level 8, spell level 2, base cost 14400, we paid 4050, xp cost: 270
Divine Agility, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 5, base cost 2250, we paid 633, xp cost: 43
Wraithstike, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 3, base cost 1350, we paid 380, xp cost: 26
Magic Vestment, 1/day, caster level 8, spell level 3, base cost 10800, we paid 3038, xp cost: 203
Fuse Arms, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base cost 900, we paid 253, xp cost: 17
Greater Vigor, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 5, base cost 4500, we paid 1266, xp cost: 85
Heart of Air, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base cost 1800, we paid 506, xp cost: 34
heart of Earth, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 4, base cost 3600, we paid 1013, xp cost: 68
heart of Fire, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level5, base cost 4500, we paid 1266, xp cost: 85
Heart of Water, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 3, base cost 2700, we paid 759, xp cost: 51
Greater Invisibility, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 4, base cost 3600, we paid 1013, xp cost: 68
See Invisibility, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 1, base cost 900 (runescarred berserker if you want to know), we paid 253, xp cost: 17
Delay Death, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 4, base cost 3600, we paid 1013, xp cost: 68
Enlarge Person, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 1, base cost 450, we paid 127, xp cost: 9
Spikes 3/day, caster level 8, spell level 3, base cost 32400, we paid 9113, xp cost: 608
Bite of the Wearbear, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 4, base price 3600, we paid 1013, xp cost: 68
Treasure Scent, 1/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base price 900, we paid 253, xp cost: 17
Scintillating Scales, 2/day, caster level 1, spell level 2, base price 1800, we paid 506, xp cost: 34
Telepathic Bond, 1/day, caster level 3, spell level 5, base price 6750, we paid 1898, xp cost: 127
There's another item, called "Free as a Bird Censer", which I think has a thematic discount. I'll have to double check the spell level and caster level of it's stuff, I only have a partial list, but it has...
Disobedience 3/day, Caster level 1, spell level 3, 3564 base price, we paid 1002, xp cost: 67
Haste 3/day, Caster level 1, Spell Level
Footsteps of the Divine 3/Day, Caster Level 1, Spell Level
Aerial Alacrity 3/Day, Caster Level 1, Spell Level
Freedom of Movement 3/day, Caster Level 1, Spell Level
Anyway, the main amount of money we made was, my character made a 109k by knowing about an obscure spell, and using it to great effect, for 3 month's work, casting Stone Metamorphosis many times each day to shore up a city wall that was made of a poor quality stone, solving a massive problem for the city that then paid us. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 09:47:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 08:04:38
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| 109K? Woulda been a lot cheaper for the mayor to hire a spellthief, diviner, assassins, or a beefy mugging crew, I'd think. Indirectly, of course, gotta have plausible deniability. Or just fund a research grant. Nothing brings down the price faster than increased supply from competitors. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 08:14:21
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Yeah 109K for grunt work.... and that's just YOUR character? Wow. I'd take it the others made just as much money since you stated US on top of that. Four times your character wealth, and thats not even including other gizmos you have. (Bunch of +5 weapons and +5 armor I take it, along with staffs of magi and other various gear of high level characters).
It's surprising other more evil/power creatures aren't seeing you as a threat with the amount of power you have now, and realizing what your going to be able to do at level 20. (Farting to destroy AO at that point for you guys. On a bad day). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 08:29:24
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I'm just saying that, as DM, one of my overriding missions is to ensure my PCs are always cash-starved. Haggle for everything like Waukeen. Let 'em ignore "worthless" change when they toss gold pieces around, suck every extra copper you can. Charge 'em for cures for every pimple, hangnail, wart, and sniffle you can get away with. Make sure they spend a little to always keep up with hygeine and fashions, fix their boots, patch their backpacks, feed their horses, all the rest. Offer plenty of snake oil and overpriced ordinaries. If they don't have the right skills and feats then they just have to pay for their butcher, baker, and candlestick maker; else, they instead have to pay for the materials and tools of their trade. Best of all, heeheheee, make sure they're as unhappy about paying inescapable taxation as everybody else in the land (most especially when they actually possess or display any wealth) - you think the King's soldiers don't know that a single adventurer in town is worth as much revenue as all the brainless peasants within three miles combined? There's always bribes and gifts, too, it all adds up.
Let 'em pay for entertainments and lifestyle. I seriously doubt they'd be merely content to warm themselves at the fire while nursing a beer all night. They're adventurers, they'd be itching to go out and live large and party a little before their next certain-death trip out of town. Plenty of wenches and bards, ale and thieves to help lighten their pockets. And plenty of gamblers, con-men, sycophants, and problems willing to measure themselves up against the PCs when they see that bling fly around. Only seriously disturbed sociopaths would sit in a their quiet dark room grinding their axe for five hours. Only the most astonishing nerds would re-read their spellbook for about the 178th time when they could shyly play around a little tonight and deal with their chores in the morning. Big lights, big city; the PCs are persons of remarkable character, not teetotaling-twoshoes or lifeless zombie minions. $$$
There's no way my players could possibly afford such extravagant toys, not without seriously sacrificing and hoarding (and somehow protecting their hoard) for a good amount of time. Maybe I'm just a bastard that way. Different tables, different styles. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Nov 2010 08:57:45 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:07:20
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Well, the DM just went by the Spellcasting Services chart. And yes, I did mention in character, to the other PC, that, "Should we tell them that their clerics should be able to cast that spell too? I think there's someone in this city who has access to fourth level cleric spells..." And the rest of the party was like, "No no, no need to be hasty or anything... if they don't want to do the research, that's their problem!"
And it was 109k for spellcasting from a not-well-known 4th level spell, multiple times a day. for three months, at full caster level, and using various tricks that the character went out and got in order to solve an embarrassing and dangerous problem for the city.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm
And yes, I've been egging the DM on that powerful spellcasty types should start seeing the group as a threat, as I've mentioned that we no longer are particular worried about certain categories of threats (ie big dumb melee brutes)...
Also, I'm going to edit the price chart and what we paid and stuff... keep an eye on that sucker. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 09:10:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:16:30
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| 100K will generally buy you a medium-sized keep. Slightly used, but still in quite servicable condition. View included. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
100K will generally buy you a medium-sized keep. Slightly used, but still in quite servicable condition. View included.
Eh, we're going for an Airship the next 100k we get. I've been working together with the Artificer's player and the DM, and I think we can come up with some ways to save some money on getting a good airship, by combining a few interesting techniques... After we get a Simulacra of a Noble Djinn, of course. That'll give us unlimited plant based anything, and Wishes to simulate useful spells, which will help. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 09:31:10 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:36:54
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| And the XP cost for crafting these items? |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:43:04
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*Sigh* Alright, I'll get on the XP costs too.. for the ones I have at least...
*goes and does some edits* |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 09:54:43 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:45:45
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Your DM gave you 109k for your character casting 4th level spells for 3 months? What are you doing adventuring after that, go settle down in a keep somewhere and leave adventuring to the poor, cash starved adventurers who actually need to be out risking their lives for a few measly gold pieces. On a related note, what possible idiot would pay a guy so much money that he could have hired 1,090,000 days worth of labor for that same cost instead(untrained laborers cost 1sp per day).
I understand that every group plays a different way but seriously, why bother with the pretense that your character "worked" for the money, why not just have the DM do away with cash altogether and just have you make whatever items you want for free? Where do the characters actually earn the money in a system like y'all had? Three months of labor in real life is one thing, but saying your wizard casts spells every day for 3 months takes 5 seconds of table time and suddenly you're richer than your whole party should be. Oh well, it's your game and all that, congratulations for displaying how easy it is to make an unbeatable character when you have total control of the game and can completely ignore the rules. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:51:01
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Well what happened is that she provided a service that *they couldn't get*. It was a rush job, needed to be done before the queen came and visited. That's why it mattered, the work was happening in the middle of winter, and the Queen was coming in spring, and they would only be able to quarry an appropriate replacement stone after the roads cleared in spring, AFTER the queen visited, and things had to be perfect by the time the queen got there... they'd already done Stone Shape, Wall of Stone, and lots of masonry that they could, they needed someone with knowledge of a rare spell...
It was a really fortuitous event, really. Right place and right time, and the DM used what he had -- a rubric that says how much spellcasting services cost. And it was said afterward that this is WHY spellcasting adventurers often retire -- sure, it's once in a blue moon when they get a big commission like that, but when they come, they've got expenses set for years and years, and don't have to risk their lives. That's why spellcasters are often NOT actually out adventuring all the time...
And the characters are adventuring for personal reasons, not for money! The artificer sees money as a fuel for her goals, and the Druid sees money as just something that's helpful in general.
Anyway, we were almost at the point where we could get an arbitrary large amount of money anyway -- with core only, that's level 12 or so. When you get 6th level spells (plane shift, planar ally, planar binding, etc.). Of course, we'll soon have an arbitrarily large amount of money anyway -- after we do the mining adventure in the Elemental Plane of Earth (that should net at least several hundred thousand...), and Call a Noble Djinn and get a lock of hair from it and make a Simulacrum of the thing. So it's soon going to be the case that *money* is not the limiting factor in getting stuff, in this game. Availability, time, life force--that sort of thing is going to be the limiting factor.
Also, I AM NOT THE DM. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 10:11:18 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:06:52
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| And instead of buying the right to transcribe the spell so that they can have multiple wizards cast it to speed things up they pay you 109k to cast it over and over again? No, that's just the DM printing y'all money with a justification thrown on there. But anyways, it doesn't matter you are free to play the game any way you want, I will leave you to it and go back to my games. I truly do hope y'all are having fun since that's all that matters, I just can't see myself or anyone I've played with having fun with the game set up the way yours is and no challenges near your characters' supposed level that can possibly give you problems. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:12:28
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Well, even if she made a scroll of it, it would still be a Druid/Divine spell, or if she cast it into a spell a Wizard Scribed, it would be a Druid spell. The Wizard version is 7th level. Any of the clerics that could cast 4th level spells COULD have cast it, if they had thought to pray for it, but they didn't. I specifically mentioned this to the DM.
And this is the sort of game where we *never face challenges near the CR for our characters*. That's the WHOLE POINT. Generally, if you go to one of those Encounter Calculators, if you put it to the point where it's just barely "unbeatable", that is appropriate for this campaign.
Like if you go here:
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm
And put in, say, the two characters at ECL 8, than for us, a single CR 14 monster might be an okay fight, for example. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 10:17:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:44:38
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lol, my players contracted a 12th level transmuter - now an important regular PC they reckon with daily - to provide certain magic (beyond their level) they need to maintain their keep, located "in the frozen boonies" somewhat near Mirabar.
They give him a stipend of some 900GP per tenday (that is, nearly 33K per year), enough land to maintain his tower within the keep's walls (plus the tower itself, built to his specifications), a title as one of the seven lesser lords of the keep (along with all advantages that confers, political and personal), complete unrestricted access to their "great library" (which incidentally contains backup copies of their spellbooks, alongside all sorts of other magical tomes and lore they haven't dared read), an alchemist and some artisans (two glaziers, a few scribes, a bookbinder, and an expensive "masseuse") imported from Waterdeep to serve him exclusively, a guaranteed contingent of no less than 10 soldiers assigned to guard him and his tower 24/7; and they generally eat all the maintenance costs of his components, labwares, and spellbook materials just to keep him happy. He is also entitled to two months per year (distributed as he sees fit, although they can overrule his schedule) for his own purposes, research, etc, during which time he may perform some or none of his normal duties and is required only to remain available within the keep (or make his own arrangements to bring in an equally capable replacement).
In return, he casts his full contingent of spells (except for 1 spell per level which he may retain for his own use) as they require (they must replace all spell components, plus they cannot make him cast any spells which cause permanent harm, aging, draining, loss, etc, nor command him to use up any charged or limited-use items) - mostly they employ him to cast endless divinations, Identify, Stoneskin, Teleport, and a few Wall spells. He cannot be commanded to leave the keep, join on adventures, or engage in combat although they can renegotiate (and are expected to offer him a magic item and/or an equal share of the loot) on a case-by-case basis for each such expedition; though he is always obligated to assist in defending the keep as best he can during times of seige or emergency. He is, in essence, a valuable asset and important individual in their community and everybody acts accordingly (both sides are careful to see they maximize their gain in this relationship, while being careful to treat the other respectfully).
You mean I could've easily milked my PCs for a 100K per season instead? Cha-ching! |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Nov 2010 10:49:52 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:59:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You mean I could've easily milked my PCs for a 100K per season instead? Cha-ching!
If I were DMing something like that... I'd say only if they were REALLY desperate to get a specific problem solved, in a hurry, that takes many high caster level spells cast to do so, that they do NOT have the actual ability to solve. Then you'd use the normal spellcasting services price, from that chart, I suppose. But as it is, they've given this spellcaster stuff that has a LOT of value--I mean look at all their backup spellbooks, that's incredibly valuable!-- and lots of other valuable stuff in ways that can't often be easily quantified. That chart is for someone needs spellcasting done on short notice -- getting someone 'on retainer' would take the sort of haggling that it looks like you all have done. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 11:00:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 11:15:00
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Yes, they basically let him copy their spells (except those he cannot cast and those few formulae they don't "backup" in the library). That alone is absolutely priceless to a wizard - and costs much less than 100K.
As you say, the chart is for someone who needs specific spellcasting on demand. Remove Curse, Healing, Enchant an Item, whatever fills the players' need (or gaps in their spellbooks). Taken literally, the prices computed by your DM are accurate. Taken less literally, a DM might compute the service as requiring multiple spellcastings over some time period and therefore go with some kind of contract or "job" quote. As DM, I'd probably offer your wizard maybe 20-30K and work from there. Only a fool offers all his gold all up front. And only a fool would walk away from easy work that nets 30K (or more) for a single season of spellcasting.
I'm not judging your game or your DM as "wrong", I'm just saying my game would judge things differently. As I said many posts back, what matters is that you play for fun. Monty Hall and munchkin playstyles are not wrong, just not for me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 11:47:45
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My Druid would have GLADLY taken 30k for the three months of work, by the way. I was kinda jawdrop when the DM quoted that number, and was like, "Are you sure??" and then had my character act just as awestruck too.
And, does this game follow the traditional definition of a Monty Haul, though? Yes, we get a lot of money, but from levels, oh, 1-7, we were BELOW the wealth by level curve in "treasure gained", if not the wealth by level curve in "Value of Equipment per character" (ie, because the Artificer made very efficient use of the wealth they DID get). It's only when the characters made a concerted effort to try and get a lot of money, rather than just solving quests in front of them, did they GET a lot of money.
And yes, the house rules make buffing via these magical items more worthwhile and take less investment than it otherwise would -- but is that Monty Haul? I thought Monty Haul was giving out extremely expensive magic items as rewards without the characters having to really seek them out? The idea of this game is that the character's AREN'T the most powerful things in the universe -- Szass Tam would still mop the floor with them -- but they are people seeking to be able to do things beyond what they SHOULD be able to do, and innovating to accomplish those goals.
And, yea, it's a munchkin game. But there have been some great RP times in it too, and we aren't trying to break rules -- we've been writing down all these house rules as we make them (sometimes accidentally), and trying to get coherent house rules working consistently. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 12:00:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 13:28:40
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The definition of "Monty Hall" is even less agreed upon than the definition of "balanced".
Advantages of Monty Hall - more of the best and cool stuff is available, encounters are more exciting, players are enabled to accomplish the most challenging goals, change the world, and actually get to really use all the powers and stuff in the game instead of simply reading about them. Gameplay can be far more vivid and interesting, a sense of reward and accomplishment is more easily attained.
Disadvantages of Monty Hall - "balance" is much harder to achieve as firepower and abilities can vary wildly from character to character (PCs and NPCs both), it is increasingly difficult to prevent inflationary escalation, care is required to prevent the easily attainable wonders from "cheapening" the game with a jaded sense of boredom for the mundane. The easily attained virtues are difficult to maintain. Once down the path of Monty Hall you begin, forever will it consume your campaign's destiny.
Your game seems (from your descriptions) to be tipping into Monty Hall. It's not as "canon" as most games but so what? It works and it's fun. A single overspill of excessive gold doesn't make Munchkin.
Many DMs (especially grognards like me) will argue that "balance" is essential; saying that toys must be "earned" instead of "given" so that they retain their value and significance. This doesn't mean not rewarding the players for accomplishing things, it just means not giving stuff away for nothing. (Vaguely hinted threats stating "you'll need it later mwoohahahaa" are still gifts, outside of come-and-go story props this is just rarely done and considered the mark of an amateur.) Tightfisted control over player gold/money is an important aspect of "balance", since modern-thinking players will just "throw money at the problem" whenever they can afford it. The idea is to keep the players working for a living, "easy" stuff is for non-adventurers.
I've played in Monty Halls before, most of them collapse or get reset (sometimes with a lot of hard feelings), but a few manage to stay fresh and entertaining all the time. Group dynamic is what matters most for setting the tone. Monty Hall requires a very special skill of "unbalance" which just cannot be explained until you've seen a few Monty Halls collapse under the weight of accumulated wealth and wonder.
So Monty Hall is not wrong at all. When it's done right.
"Munchkin" is much easier to define. Game-breaking super pwnage with no consideration whatsoever for anything beyond the character sheet and maximum damages. Munchkin gamers are just comic superheros without the interesting flaws or artwork. I personally see no merit in Munchkins, but there's a whole lot of 'em out there so it must be fun. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Nov 2010 13:41:30 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 17:56:21
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Indeed. Where some joe shome can just give you that amount of money up front for a few seconds of work? They're insane. It's just not only cheaper to hire others, but simply better for morale and their people. By given you the money, there is much much much bigger chance that it isn't going back into the city. By paying their own people, their people is much more likely to spend it in the city and spread it around. It just isn't realistic.
And you'd mop the floor with most CR's with those buffs. No amount of melee can touch you. No amount of magic can hurt you. No walls. Nothing stands in your way except the bodies of your so called enemies. (Though an enemy is someone that should challange you, there more like insects at this point).
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 20:28:40
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| One thing that should hurt them, and I would take advantage of as a DM, is that the artificially low caster levels of those buffs means a greater dispel magic should be able to wipe a good chunk of them away. One round against an 11th level wizard, or a group of enemies who can buy a one use item that casts greater dispel magic and they are back to being ordinary characters again. Heck in 3.5e normal dispel magic works on multiple effects, it's only in Pathfinder where the 3rd level dispel can only remove 1 spell per character, so all you need is an enemy with 3rd level spells to strike from ambush and it's a level playing field again. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 20:39:53
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True Idilippy, but the players already have a bunch of anti dispel magic items/gear to prevent that. Again, given by the DM.
They're having fun playing unstoppable unkillible game breakers. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 21:54:51
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| What anti-dispel items? I didn't see a mention of any anti-dispel item in my read through of the thread, did I just miss it? And how do you have an anti-dispel item anyways, even rings of counterspells, assuming they managed to find 4000gp more each after their expenditures, only works once and can be bypassed by simply doing the area dispel option rather than casting dispel magic on the actual character. Eh I wouldn't go as far as to call them game breakers, it's their game after all and the DM is the one allowing all this stuff. I mean compared to my campaigns, yeah they're breaking rules left and right, and they're certainly far away from both the RAW and RAI, but they haven't really broken their game since they planned it to go this way. |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 22:36:10
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Well, not *given*. And the anti dispel magic items and gear aren't invulnerable -- they are RESISTANT. And it's not like these characters are without weaknesses! The right type of save or die effects will still mess them up pretty hardcore. My druid's reflex save is only +4 when she's not in a high dexterity form or without the dex buffs, so a reflex based save or 'cannot continue to fight', that isn't negated by Freedom of Movement, would hurt lots. And there's lots of "No save, your life just sucks now" spells that can still be thrown at these characters. They AREN'T invulnerable -- they are just very, very tough.
And you know what? Even with NO gear beyond, say, something to increase intelligence, a paranoid Wizard, at high level, using PHB ONLY, can still be nigh invulnerable too. We are just doing it a little earlier.
And why do you say these items are 'given'? The artificer MAKES them....
And I would strongly disagree that 'no amount of magic' can hurt us. Magic CAN hurt us. It is, indeed, the only thing that has a good chance of harming us -- and it still has a good chance! Sure, the DM would have to start using the obscure dispel spells if he wants to dispel us (I gave him a list!). But the thing is, all this optimization means is that *direct threats to our person* isn't where the sort of thing we would need to worry about overcoming. No, this means we'd need to worry about doing things that we might fail at, even if we happen to be 'invulnerable' or not particularly harmed by 'death'. One of the most harrowing fights in recent times was when we went up against 10 or so forest trolls (cr 4 each), and had to prevent them from getting to and slaughtering a human work camp.
EDIT:
Oh, anti dispel? We don't have all of those up yet, but the main idea is a layered defense. Those were from a different thread I think.
First, we'd want spellblades of the three most common / basic dispel spells -- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Chain Dispel. Then, we'd want a shrink item skullcap sized for a Titan (or whatever), to block line of effect if it is dispelled / we are in an antimagic field. Then we'd want a contingency dispel magic of our own placed on the cap so we can get the full cover when we need it. Then we'd want to add a few spells to our buff spell list, at fairly high caster level, as many of these as possible: Lesser globe of invulnerability, globe of invulnerability, Spell Turning, the psionic power Dispelling Buffer, Battlemagic Perception, and Mystic Shield (from Anauroch: Empire of shade). Then we need a few Wings of Cover spells made with Craft Contingent spell, set to go off with very specific situations. We'd also need a Ring of Counterspells: Dispel Magic and a Ring of Greater Counterspells: Greater Dispel Magic, and maybe a Ring of Spell Battle too. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 23 Nov 2010 22:44:15 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 23:15:45
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
What anti-dispel items? I didn't see a mention of any anti-dispel item in my read through of the thread, did I just miss it? And how do you have an anti-dispel item anyways, even rings of counterspells, assuming they managed to find 4000gp more each after their expenditures, only works once and can be bypassed by simply doing the area dispel option rather than casting dispel magic on the actual character. Eh I wouldn't go as far as to call them game breakers, it's their game after all and the DM is the one allowing all this stuff. I mean compared to my campaigns, yeah they're breaking rules left and right, and they're certainly far away from both the RAW and RAI, but they haven't really broken their game since they planned it to go this way.
Second page he made a list.
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
AFAIK, there is no way to resist any kind of dispel magics, even spell resistance.
I'm curious as to which spells you have at the same time. I find it hard to find 50 low-level spells that can ALL stack and not overlap.
As for your question, as other said before, if anything Mystra will be pleased, certainly not offended or weakened. If she was that weak, she could get killed with a simple strike to the head with a staff (now wait a minute...)
That's good to know that Mystra will be happy with it, and innovations and stuff. Also, spell resistance and infinite spell resistance, ie, the terribly named 'spell immunity', is generally a *terrible* way to resist spells...
And there are toonnsss of ways of resisting dispels! I'm trying to come up with a good set of layered/tiered/ablative/defense-in-depth ways to resist Dispel Magic and it's variants.
If you are curious, here's what I have so far:
1. Have a few sacrificial spell that is easy to dispel. Maybe make sure that these are cast at fairly high caster level. Endure Elements works well.
2. Have as many of these up as possible: Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Turning, a Magical version of Dispelling Buffer, and Mystic Shield spells
3. Have a Spellblade of Dispel Magic on person and 'wielded'
4. Have a Ring of Counterspells-Dispel Magic, & Ring of Spell Battle (combined item)
5. Have at least ONE, but ideally more, Contingent Spell (per feat) Wings of Cover-- if possible, each tuned to be a different color, maybe with a Rod of Spell Thematics or something. Set the first to go off "If I or my equipment is subject to any dispelling type spell, which are not otherwise nullified by other effects, wings of cover to stop the attack." Set the second to also say "And I am not covered by a Contingent Wings of Cover with Blue thematics". Set the third to say "And I am not covered by a Contingent Wings of Cover with Yellow Thematics."
NOTE: Anyone know a less complicated way to do this??
6. Have a Contingent Spell Dimension Door, straight up, maximum caster level and range. "I yell, speak, mouth, or obviously attempt to say 'bugout'"
7. Have a Contingent Spell Dispel Magic of our own, Targeted an otherwise completely mundane boiled leather (or whatever, maybe something stronger?) skullcap (for a colossal++ monster...) that goes *over* your face and crown slot items, which will then envelop you and provide you with complete cover against most things. The contingency is "I yell, speak, mouth, or obviously attempt to say 'Covernow'". Also, as soon as any dispel effect gets to that sucker, no later dispel effects are going to be able to target the character unless they come from underneath the character, or effects are done so as to destroy the cover, as the character will now have complete cover... this can buy time.
8. Have a Spellblade of Greater Dispel Magic on person and 'wielded'
9. Have a Ring of Greater Counterspells-Greater Dispel magic, & Spell Battle (combined item)
10. Have a Spellblade of Chain Dispel, on person and 'wielded'
11. Have a Spellblade of Disjunction, on person and 'wielded' (would that do anything against that terrible, terrible spell? Why would anyone cast that spell? Ugh...?)
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 23:27:27
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With all the heat spells activated, you also get to fly, activate another stoneskin, immune
to all crits/sneak attack etc, resist 20 to all fire spells,
Disobedience makes you immune to all the various charm/control spells, so no fear there.
In the tiny chance that you are attacked by any attack spells, it doesn't matter if they do
fifty points of damage or a million with delay death on you permentally. Just chug a healing
potion and yay. (Though I suspect you guys just use that little loop hole and throw yourself
into a pool of water to take care of that)
Bulk of your saves will mean that you'll all quite easily pass any save or die spells.
So for most part, you are immune to basically everything.
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 23:56:46
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| We don't have Mind Blank, yet. We aren't IMMUNE to enchantments and divinations -- just mostly ones that offer saves. Someone could still scry us, figure out our defenses, and disable them. And there are lots of status effects that we still aren't immune to (Sickened, Nauseated, diseased, deafened, blinded, paralyzed, dazed, frightened [and there are LOTS of ways to get past fear immunities! -- we could get to panicked and cowering fairly easy from a fear specialist], stunned, prone, we can be petrified. I *believe* we aren't yet. WE ARE NOT IMMMUNE TO DEATH EFFECTS, or death from disintigrate!) We aren't immune to Vile damage, or Taint, or a host of other things, too. We don't regenerate lost limbs. We can still be imprisoned by Forcecage or Wall of Iron. We can still *fail to achieve goals*. An Abjuration/dispel specialist will have a field day dispelling our buffs and stealing them. |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 24 Nov 2010 00:01:04 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 00:29:39
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With a dex of 27 (Assuming your Girallon race, like you claim you do) your physical stats are Str 44,
Dex 25 Con 22 with your buffs of divine agility, bite of the wearbear, fuse arms and polymorphed to
girrallon, and enlarge person.
Your AC Is 10 base, 8 Dex, 11 natural, +2 from magic vestment, +1 dodge
Double ranged increment, +5 to range attacks bonus (Which includes your spells) added with guided shot
means that you can shoot ranged touch attacks all you want with no worries.
I have no idea what classes the bulk of you are, but I'm more then willing to guess they all have good
will saves, so your saving throws are FORT: 12, REF: 13, WILL: 11 at minimal.
Total AC: This is NOT including any armor, like plate mail or bracers of armor, or any other plentiful
armor enhancments are : 32. For touch? Same number. Since Disintegrate DC Might be at BEST 24-25, with your fortitude, you have a decent chance of easily surivivng it. Like most spells.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 01:22:01
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Or just handout a few "buffy" items to BBEGs. Whether they be layered offensive spells, or layered dispel-/anti-magic stuffs, or layered defenses doesn't matter. They'll either counteract, negate, or equalize the PC's "buffy".
A self-destruct or anti-tampering mechanism is helpful in preventing escalation when the PCs kill the BBEG; otherwise they'll just add his captured "buffy" to their own and become twice as powerful as before.
In a way all these crazy-counteracting magic immunities and stuff sort of cancel each other out and make the caster/wearer largely immune to pretty much everything except for a big angry fighter standing in his face.
Logic suggests that if the players have "ordinary" power for their level then all opponents of same level will be comparable, while opponents of superior level will be unstoppable. On the other extreme, the players have "extraordinary" power for their level, in which case opponents who feel themselves strong enough (ie, higher level) will attempt to seize such power from these weaklings to use for themselves; if they want it bad enough they will study/spy to learn what weaknesses they can exploit. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Nov 2010 01:29:55 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 01:44:31
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| I just don't see his DM ever doing that. The party is having fun having no challenge and slaughtering whatever messes with them. Perfectly reasonable, just nothing to brag about being a boxer that beats a baby to death which is what that party can do. |
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Overdoing long-lasting buff spells-hurt the Weave?
Topic Locked
