| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2010 : 12:20:27
|
Ophidians are with the reptile creator race.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had decided that the WoL&D had taken place immediately following the Black Diamond debacle (that is what I had in that lost mythology piece I wrote), and I figured that out BEFORE Gray pointed me to the 4e lore that substantiates that claim.
If you read through the Savage Frontier, you will see that that was the way it was always supposed to be - the Creator Races were destroyed when Shar's moon was obliterated (and pieces of it came raining down onto Abeir-Toril).
In fact, pieces of Shar still exist - everyone can see them - and every so often another chunk falls to earth (or Toril, in this case).
I know about Savage Frontier, says magic was rawer back then, implying there was no Weave as it is today, which is fine in my timeline where Lurue predated the human power. War of Light and Darkness lasts from the beginning til the end of time. For Ladinion to exist you need a sun, so the diamond myth happened after. It says that creator races all vanished in a single event, different than in GHoTR. Also it was Moander's goal to destroy them all. But I'm not a follower of canon, particularly the part about the history of FR in -30 000s DR. I like it to be more parallel with the timeline of Earth, with a lot longer eras, e.g. something like the ages of:
Elements, billions of years ago (wars of titans, elementals and primordials over stars), losses of Shar cause the Farspawn Gigantomachy as aberrant spores (Progenitors) enter certain solar systems.
Aberrations, some 4 billions of years ago, everything is infected except the proto-Sharns who evolve resistant cell barriers thanks to the info stolen from Shar. Later photosynhesis develops which helps with the purge.
Amphibians, 300 mil., Reptiles 200 mil., Avians and Dragons 100 mil., Beasts 65 mil., Humans 200 000 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had that theory back when I first became an FR DM - note Shar's symbol - A Black Moon. The more I re-read old sources, the more I am convinced of it.
And there's the Dark Moon heresy. To me it always was like a black hole, with an ultraviolet edge.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What I really want to know is who's giant skull is that floating in the void? 
Titanic ancestor of Lathander (Amaunator)?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
After the universe gained consciousness (which may have come-about through the sharn Overmind), the 'new universe' was written over the old one, which still exists, beneath the surface.
The sharn are creatures of chaos as well, there are a lot of other beings assosciated with the origins of the universe, the leshay, arcane, spellweavers, draeden, obyrith, primordials, Sleeping Ones, phirblas, Twin Serpents, wish I had the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, in my model, I leave room for something even 'beyond GOD' - If the universe is run like a 'cosmic bureaucracy', then it stands to reason that the D&D universe is just one of many universes, and even God may have 'a boss' somewhere.
Isn't by the definition of the word nothing beyond?
I'm not really buying that story from the Well of Worlds novels cause of time, if time is real there must be something before that first race appeared. I'm sticking with the time being illusory, not just in the artificial reality but completely. So the story goes something like this:
There is one reality, it's dimensionless (including time), it's perfect, changeless, call it infinite good or something, God. All the factions in Planescape would be absolutely satisfied being in that state, e.g. it's absolute freedom (Anarchists), infinite knowledge (Guvners) etc.
There are false existences (universes) that are reflections, shadows, dreams, illusions, imperfect copies of the reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One theory is that the Sharn are responsible for the Phaerimm, who are trying to destroy the Universe, and it is that 'guilt' that drives them. It could be similar to the relationship the Skrulls have with the Dire Wraiths in Marvel comics.
I think they want that raw magic back, they need mythals to sustain them, or they act as defilers.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
More 'primitive' gods - usually the nature deities - may still rely heavily upon the older system of 'Pools' to exchange energy (think Eldath).
Interesting idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Think about it - the world is enclosed by an immense field of darkness - the Crystal Sphere itself - and it is perforated with millions of 'holes' that lead to Radiance. Sounds a LOT like how Ed has described the Weave and the Shadoweave, and their relationship. Shar tried to blanket the world in darkness, and Selune sacrificed much of her own divine energies to stop that from happening, by 'blasting away' at Shar.
The shell looks the way it does for the same reason the Victims of the St. Valentine's day massacre did - its battle-damage, and riddled with holes. 
Lol, I don't see a need for a crystal sphere tough, the sun is enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay[/i]
Wow - while looking for undead fey for the other thread, I happen to go through MC Annual, Vol.1 - LOTS of useful bits in there!
Great, actually we only have Vol. 4, it was the first monster book we had, now over ten years ago.
|
 |
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2010 : 18:07:54
|
I am trying to get a sense of how the Last Universe looked like...
Am I right that it had no prime material plane, and only an elemental realm and an astral one? So the creatures created by the gods were initially composed of solely elements and souls (with no or highly morphic bodies). This closely resembles what fey look like in my mind...
Perhaps the primordials and gods initially worked perfectly fine together, but something sparked a conflict and messengers were needed. The faerie races were highly mobile, well equipped with skills in negotiation and uniquely talented into understanding both sides of the conflict. The fey that formed to be the best messengers eventually were adapted to be soldiers when the elemental vs spirit-war sparked into existence. So Leshay or Sidhe are likely those fey that fought in the war of Primordials vs the Gods and emerged as the victorious (or most successful) strain of fey in that war.
This victory of the Sidhe caused perhaps the first philosophical divide amongst feykind, and this conflict revolved around the morality of magic. Sidhe managed to harness or develop new high magics in necromantic and illusion (shadow magics) areas, and LeShay in enchantment and transmutative (radiance magics) schools. Their epic arcane war perhaps drained or changed the Last Universe so much, that the latter universe still has echo's of this conflict, resonating (or resulting) in the (creation of the) Shadowfell and the Feywild copies of the Prime worlds...
I also think the fey creator race are the creators of the schools of magic as we know it, and that's why they are considered one of the creator races. I see fey as very experimental when magic is involved, and very resilient versus any magical force-feedback. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 13 Dec 2010 18:19:33 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2010 : 04:45:06
|
Some interesting stuff in Savage Frontier - did you read the parts about the High fores Orcs? 
Not only do they worship the 'Lord of the Hunt' (DIRECTLY from DD/LL - the SAME Celtic deity!), but their shamans grow antlers! Its also weird that they co-habitat the High forest with Elves, yet doesn't mention anything about conflict. At the worst, they seem to be ambivalent of each other (pointing to my own theories about Orcs and Goblinkin being the original Svartálfar). The Elves and orcs of the High Forest are one of the oldest groups in Faerun, and their ancestors may have dated to the time when the Sylvan Elves left Faerie (ahead of the Eladrin/High Elves).
And strangely, it ties in nicely with a couple of other pieces of HB lore I've had on the back-burner - the Ondonti, and that Orc/Dwarf city the Companions of the hall found in RAS's novel. Obviously, there was group of sophisticated Orcs dwelling on Abeir-Toril in the distant past.
I had considered the 'de-evolution' of the Orcs occurred when the Orcs from that other world (the Grey Orcs) came through the Orcgate in the Old Empires. It would have been very 'neat' to say that those more primitive Orcs bred with FR's civilized ones, and caused the Orcish downfall. Unfortunately, the Grey Orcs are actually MORE civilized, and the history of the Orc-Hordes in the North goes all the way back to the Crown Wars (so we can't blame those Grey Orcs for ruining the whole race). I believe the very first mention of an orc Horde was at the Battle of God's Theater (which is interesting because of the name).
How about this? Those Grey Orcs were FR's original Orcs. Not saying that the Orcgate was a Time-portal or anything like that, but the two groups could have had a common source. Suppose not all the Svartálfar followed Gru-Maas (Grumsh) - what if they were as divided on that issue as other fay were? We know the (Sylvan) Elves followed the Faery Court, at least until the Eladrin arrived on Toril. And those 'first Elves' worshiped the Fey pantheon (Yuir Totems), which we've already connected to the Celtic pantheon, AND the Lord of the Hunt. So maybe some of those 'Elves' that came-over from faery (mentioned in tGHotR) were actually Fey Orcs! (Note the Ondonti are considered 'fey' in their write-up, which never made sense to me until recently).
So 'Grey' and 'Green' (and whatever other colors orcs come in) have very little to do with temperament. It has to do with THOUSANDS of years of social degradation, and their treatment as 'monsters' (I won't bother quoting my favorite orc - General Vrakk - yet again). On worlds where they were treated as equals, or where they were allowed to dwell in-peace (and possibly alone), they would have kept their original culture, which would have been damn close to that of Wild and dark Elves (which they are technically kin to, if I'm right).
Over time, most of the 'Orcish Culture' would have been wiped from Faerun, just as many of the Dwarven and Elven civilizations are now long-vanished. Come to think of it... we have evidence of MANY ruins that are truly ancient, that don't appear to be claimed by either Elves or Dwarves. Also, we now have at least one canon example of a city (Baffenburg?) that was comprised of Orcs and dwarves living together. I have a theory about Dwarves being the servants of very early 'Earth Powers' (and subservient to Giants), and that they were 'freed' by the Fey (The Fey of the east were beings of elemental earth themselves, and helped the dwarves of that Plane escape onto Toril and elsewhere). This places the fey and early (earth) dwarves in precisely the right region where they need to be - around the Yehimal Mountain range.
Whatever powers of 'Elemental Evil' that held sway over the dwarves would have sought vengeance, and the Black Diamond is precisely the type of thing a being devoted to 'corruption' would have used.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I know about Savage Frontier, says magic was rawer back then, implying there was no Weave as it is today, which is fine in my timeline where Lurue predated the human power. War of Light and Darkness lasts from the beginning til the end of time. For Ladinion to exist you need a sun, so the diamond myth happened after. It says that creator races all vanished in a single event, different than in GHoTR. Also it was Moander's goal to destroy them all. But I'm not a follower of canon, particularly the part about the history of FR in -30 000s DR.
BUT there were TWO suns!
The first was created, and the mortal creatures of the world were able to take-form and build great civilizations. To one of those primordial, 'elder gods', this would have been but a brief interlude for them. For whatever reason - perhaps she was distracted - Shar did not act immediately against the First Sun. I have a feeling it have to do with jealousy (and the reality of what happened played-out a bit differently then the mythos implies). Regardless...
quote:
The Sphere was created, and 'the father' passes energy onto the divine feminine (Ao and the Earthmother?), and two beautiful children sprang forth from that union, representing the two sides of the primal forces that control the universe. The two were inseparable, and loved each other greatly, and would have continued to do so if not for the cruel Hand of Fate. Chauntea - the physical manifestation of the earthmother in Realmspace - felt cold and alone, what with Ao off creating other spheres, and her daughters grown and leaving her be. Ao felt her lonliness and bestowed upon her more of his energy, like a divine caress, and from this second union a new child was born - A'tar. An unexpected twist happened then - Selune was taken with this new edition to their cosmos, and spent much time with her androgynous sibling. The baby would beam up at her, so that his own radiant glory was reflected off her face. But Shar could not abide his light, and coveted the time Selune spent with the new Sun(son). She felt her sister was her playmate, and hatred for the late arrival festered. Time passed, and the radiance of the child grew, warming both Chauntea and Selune, and mortal races began to walk upon the face of Abeir-Toril. Of these, five grew to prominence - the first four through the patronage of elemental lords, and the last through the guidance of Ao himself. Although Chauntea, A'tar, and Selune were all delighted with their new 'toys', Shar was disgusted by what she considered vermin crawling across the body of her mother.
And as her heart grew colder, and she retreated further from the others, she began to hear whispers... the whispers of the Shadevari...
Shar, in her darkness, listened to the most ancient of evils - Darnizhaan, who told her everything was her mother's fault, for wanting another child to still her own loneliness. He convinced Shar to take a relic (the Black Diamond) to the body of Chauntea (for only her children could get close enough) and implant it within her, which would poison the body of the earthmother. The idea was to weaken her sufficiently so that she would have to absorb A'tar into herself, who of course would willingly make the sacrifice. In theory, she would both punish her mother, and be rid of the troublesome Sun. For the plan to work, powerful cloaking magic would be needed to hide the Black Diamond (which was actually a deific cancer) until a time when one of the mortal races would unearth it, and so be blamed.
When the Dwarves brought the Black Diamond up into the light of the world, its terrible power was released, and it poisoned many of the world's earth-Nodes (turning them to Faezress). A darkness soon began to crawl across the face of Faerun, and Selune and A'tar were paralyzed with fear as their mother spasmed in agony. It was a mortal race - the Fey - who reacted the quickest. Gods, for all their power, take a LONG time to think things through - such is the curse of being immortal; what is but a moment to them is a century to a material being. An epic plan was undertaken by the fey in order to save themselves - one that would require the sacrifice of Danu, a fey of immense power who had already transcended her own mortal form.
The Feywild was created from the stuff of Dreams, and the Fey fled there to be away from the corruption the earthnodes. At the same time, the Domains of dread were pulled from the place of Nightmares by Ao's kar (child), and A'tar sacrificed his Radiance - just as Shar had hoped - to halt the progress of the corruption. Danu would become the consciousness of Faerie itself, while A'tar - completely drained of his light - would become the embodiment of dread itself and reside in the shadows. It was in these brief moments while A'tar drained himself of the life-giving energies that the world went dark, and then went mad. The portfolios of Death, Conquest (tyranny), War, and Famine were created as a result.
Ao heard the cries of a thousand thousand mortal souls as they began to die. He created a second sun (son) from his own being (some say he begat this child upon a mortal woman, since he could not use Chauntea as his vessel in her condition), and placed him in the sky. He was a new sun - just awakening in his divine Radiance - and he was called 'Lathander' by the scant-few mortals that survived, which means 'late-comer' in some obscure primordial language.
But such was not to be for long... Ao discovered Shar's prefidy, and the War of Light & Darkness ensued, wherein Shar's own physical form was destroyed by Selune's hand (as she went to destroy the second sun in her blind hatred). A deal was then struck with Jergal - an enigmatic being of unusual talents (apparently some ancient power representing Death itself), who would 'bring back' fallen A'tar, but at the price of sharing his portfolio. the deal was made, and A'tar returned, but he had been badly changed by his brief imprisonment in darkness. No longer the joyful youth he once was - his personality had altered so that he became a curt being of law and rules (since he experienced first-hand what happens when the rules are not followed). He was also forced to share the portfolio of the sun with his new sibling Lathander - whom he disliked but respected for his father's sake - and the vile Jergal, who demanded that 'the price' must be paid, and that 'someone' needed to remain 'dead' at all times in order to maintain 'the balance' (which is all-important to cosmic beings). So the three would take-turns 'being dead' - floating in a nightmare-laden dreamstate in the Shadowfel until his time to 'awaken'. This cycle of time would equal one cosmic year (a millenium), so that each of the three would have to be away from the world of the living for 333â…“ years (although foreshadowing of their arrival would happen regardless, and mortals would begin to re-start their religions ahead of time, so as to be ready for them). A'tar - now going by the name of A'maunator (he who has been wronged) - dutifully takes his turn, as does Lathander, but Jergal manages to weasel-out of his part of the bargain in most millenia by having some dupe take his portfolio of 'Dusk Lord' for a time, thus fulfilling the letter of his contract, if not its intent.
As for shar, she no longer has a physical form within Realmspace, and being greatly weakened by this after the WoL&D, she fled to the Shadowfel herself, where she lives and gloats upon the immense fallen form of her dead brother... the corpse of which is occupied by the sleeping consciousness of whichever power it's turn it is to spend it's turn 'dead', and she amuses herself by filling it's dreams with horrific nightmares.
As for the world... the WoL&D involved many gods and other Immortals, and Abeir-Toril itself was badly damaged. The aftermath of the war left many of the survivors with hard-feelings (especially between the deities and the primordials), and Ao used material from the one world to create two, which would co-exist within the same space but be separated by a moment in time (basically, two worlds resonating at slightly different quantum frequencies). The Primordials and their mortal adherents would be given one, and deities and their mortal followers the other, and for a time, this worked, but the Creator-races who survived to see it forever after referred to it as 'The Sundering'. The Fey had fled, and the humans began their slow crawl back to civilization, but the other three would never fully recover.
That is the 'gist' of what I had in my Faerun Mythology piece - there was a lot more, covering the creator races, their patrons, the creation of Mystryl and her newly created 'office', etc..
And to think, I didn't even get to discuss what I intended this post to be about. Fuel for another train of thought, I suppose.
EDIT:
And as for the Black Diamond - the physical manifestation of pure corruption on the material plane - it went with the body of fallen A'tar to slumber in the Ethereal. Part of his 'cure' of his mother was to give her his light, and take her darkness into himself. Jergal, of course, 'nobley' took the first turn at being 'dead', and when his turn was over he managed to to take with him the Black Diamond, which he set into a crown for himself. Although much of its initial corruptive energies are spent, there was still enough power in the gem to allow Jergal to create a powerful artifact with it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 16 Dec 2010 05:28:25 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2010 : 05:43:11
|
I still can't remember what my last post was supposed to be about (something to do with some fey lore in Savage Frontier. I would imagine, since I am currently picking that apart), BUT I do have this -
In Swords of the Iron Legion, a 'seeress' (really a priestess with crystal ball from her Planescape uncle) leads an army to a pool in the center of her wood. they are supposed to be going to hell (Hades, actually), and the leaders ask her "where is the portal?" Her answer - that the pool is a conduit to other planes, and can be used to conduct people and energy!
She actually uses the term 'conduit' for a Pool... and I swear I NEVER read this portion of this adventure before (I never really cared for that module). I was simply trying to figure-out what the heck the locale in the north of the Winterwood is on the map on the back flap of the module (my pdf was a really bad scan). is till don't know what that locale is (just too blurry to read), but when i searched 'Winterwood' I found that priestess and her 'Pool'.
THUS lending credence to one of my theories yet-again. The 'Infinity Train' from that module is just so friggin' weird! Its powered by 'soul energy' (Radiance?), so I may have to pick through it as well (I had better take some antacid before I do so - that module is riddled with holes). It has a couple of cool gems of lore, but most of it reminds me so much of the 'bad old days' of gaming (the who-cares-if-it-makes-sense there attitude when placing stuff).
And of course we get our Anthraxus lore from there. Interesting that Yrkhetep wants to destroy anthraxus by using an artifact powered by Radiant/Incarnum (soul) energy, and Anthraxus may be related to Tyranthraxus, who in-turn is related to darkness (Shar?) and the 'Dark Three'. In order to get mortals to confront Yrkhetep, Anthraxus sends false 'visions' to the priestess about Yrkhetep's goals - that his 'Infinity train' will destroy the planes, including the prime material (which is both shar's ultimate goal, and recently Szass Tam's as well).
So why is every plot to bring-about the destruction of the D&D multiverse centered around the Forgotten Realms?
Is Abeir-Toril some sort of 'cosmic lynchpin', or 'Keystone'?
Also, while trying to find other bits for other posts here, I stumbled across two more related pieces of lore you may find useful - the tree ghost tribe venerate the Spirit of the Forest itself, and in Sylvan Shadows Cadderly uses a ritual to summon the spirit of the forest in Shilmista, and in the ritual is the word 'Fae'.
I had been using the concept of 'Forestal' (borrowed from the Thomas Covenant novels) to describe these 'consciousness of the forest itself', but I think I may need to either find a better D&D-specific term, or create one of my own. I would imagine they would be considered a type of lesser 'Archfey' (DvR 0 demi-power in 3e terminology).
Maybe combine 'exarch' and 'Sylvan' - Sylvarch. That's a bit harsh on the tongue (and sounds a little Slavic - would work in Rashemen). 'The Sylvarchi' could work. However, I am SURE I have read of something akin to this already in D&D sources - some sort of 'spirit of nature' itself. There are probably specific names for each terrain-type (we have those 'living storms' in the Raurin).
So apparently, EVERYTHING that is alive has a type of 'Overmind', even plants. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2010 04:36:21 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 12:20:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am trying to get a sense of how the Last Universe looked like...
Am I right that it had no prime material plane ...
I was using the info from Mystara where it says that the fey were beings who refused to take sides in some cosmological war. How did it looked like I'm willing to keep that unknown, only it is known that the process of entropy was opposite, everything merged. Positive energy was evil back then, or at least perceived. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 12:33:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some interesting stuff in Savage Frontier - did you read the parts about the High fores Orcs?
Not only do they worship the 'Lord of the Hunt' (DIRECTLY from DD/LL - the SAME Celtic deity!), but their shamans grow antlers! Its also weird that they co-habitat the High forest with Elves, yet doesn't mention anything about conflict... And strangely, it ties in nicely with a couple of other pieces of HB lore I've had on the back-burner - the Ondonti ...
Yes, I agree, except about them being orcs.
Imo orcs were never fey, only when some fey got corrupted/transformed they got the name orcs (similar to Tolkien). Whatever happened to them was similar to the process of Araushnee becoming a tanar'ri.
Actually I plan to use creatures from a non-fr fantasy novel for the High Forest ''orcs'', called the jaghut, they can't die, that's how they remember Herne.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have a theory about Dwarves being the servants of very early 'Earth Powers' (and subservient to Giants), and that they were 'freed' by the Fey (The Fey of the east were beings of elemental earth themselves, and helped the dwarves of that Plane escape onto Toril and elsewhere). This places the fey and early (earth) dwarves in precisely the right region where they need to be - around the Yehimal Mountain range.
Whatever powers of 'Elemental Evil' that held sway over the dwarves would have sought vengeance, and the Black Diamond is precisely the type of thing a being devoted to 'corruption' would have used.
That theory is pretty good, for me excluding the Yehimals (they are only in the North in my Realms, Norse/Germanic mythology area).
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
.BUT there were TWO suns!
The first was created, and the mortal creatures of the world were able to take-form and build great civilizations.
Fine, I don't think Shar would wait that long, watching civilizations to develop, but I do have 4-5 times when the sun had died and was reignited (Aztec/Mayan mythology).
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
The Sphere was created, and 'the father' passes energy onto the divine feminine (Ao and the Earthmother?), and two beautiful children sprang forth from that union, representing the two sides of the primal forces that control the universe.
The two were inseparable, and loved each other greatly, and would have continued to do so if not for the cruel Hand of Fate. Chauntea - the physical manifestation of the earthmother in Realmspace - felt cold and alone, what with Ao off creating other spheres, and her daughters grown and leaving her be. Ao felt her lonliness and bestowed upon her more of his energy, like a divine caress, and from this second union a new child was born - A'tar. An unexpected twist happened then - Selune was taken with this new edition to their cosmos, and spent much time with her androgynous sibling. The baby would beam up at her, so that his own radiant glory was reflected off her face. But Shar could not abide his light, and coveted the time Selune spent with the new Sun(son). She felt her sister was her playmate, and hatred for the late arrival festered. Time passed, and the radiance of the child grew, warming both Chauntea and Selune, and mortal races began to walk upon the face of Abeir-Toril. Of these, five grew to prominence - the first four through the patronage of elemental lords, and the last through the guidance of Ao himself. Although Chauntea, A'tar, and Selune were all delighted with their new 'toys', Shar was disgusted by what she considered vermin crawling across the body of her mother ...
These sorts of stories/soaps about divine families are popular in all mythologies, personally I find them obnoxious. I prefer to have gods less anthropomorphized. The Hand of Fate and A'tar parts are nice (being drained, and Shar filling its dreams with nightmares).
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
And as for the Black Diamond - the physical manifestation of pure corruption on the material plane - it went with the body of fallen A'tar to slumber in the Ethereal. Part of his 'cure' of his mother was to give her his light, and take her darkness into himself. Jergal, of course, 'nobley' took the first turn at being 'dead', and when his turn was over he managed to to take with him the Black Diamond, which he set into a crown for himself. Although much of its initial corruptive energies are spent, there was still enough power in the gem to allow Jergal to create a powerful artifact with it.
I think also Herne/Arawn carried the Crown of Thorns/Horns at some time, then cut of the corrupted part (Malar).
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Is Abeir-Toril some sort of 'cosmic lynchpin', or 'Keystone'?
Well, I follow PS's ''Centre of All'' principle, it matters where the pcs are.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Also, while trying to find other bits for other posts here, I stumbled across two more related pieces of lore you may find useful - the tree ghost tribe venerate the Spirit of the Forest itself.
That's interesting. Like the Thunderbeasts seems that some of the Uthgardt tribes are different than the usual Norse/Netherese mix (Talfiric?).
quote:
Maybe combine 'exarch' and 'Sylvan' - Sylvarch. That's a bit harsh on the tongue (and sounds a little Slavic - would work in Rashemen). 'The Sylvarchi' could work. However, I am SURE I have read of something akin to this already in D&D sources - some sort of 'spirit of nature' itself.
Doesn't sound Slavic, exarch is really a Byzantine term and it's weird to use the name for gods. It's similar to Nentyarch tough. I remember the ''spirit of nature'' monster in the ELH, there also the nature elemental in Rashemen. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 13:06:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am trying to get a sense of how the Last Universe looked like...
Am I right that it had no prime material plane ...
I was using the info from Mystara where it says that the fey were beings who refused to take sides in some cosmological war. How did it looked like I'm willing to keep that unknown, only it is known that the process of entropy was opposite, everything merged. Positive energy was evil back then, or at least perceived.
I saw myself that in a non-WotC/TSR fiction book, as an explanation for fae in the real world. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2010 13:06:56 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 13:38:59
|
| yea, it's a common theme, what's the name of that book? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 14:05:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
yea, it's a common theme, what's the name of that book?
It was in the book Faerie Tale, a personal fave. It's by my fave author, Raymond E Feist, one of the very few people that can sell me a book by putting his name on the cover. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 09:03:28
|
That's one of his books I avoided cause it's not a part of a series, goes at the top of the reading pile now.
I just finished Sanderson's The Way of Kings, it has a sort of fey creatures called the spren, and there is a force similar to radiance called stormlight.
There aren't many great fantasy novels with fey, most of them are like that vampire books. |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 12:46:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I am trying to get a sense of how the Last Universe looked like...
Am I right that it had no prime material plane ...
I was using the info from Mystara where it says that the fey were beings who refused to take sides in some cosmological war. How did it looked like I'm willing to keep that unknown, only it is known that the process of entropy was opposite, everything merged. Positive energy was evil back then, or at least perceived.
This goes well with my theory that fey were originally messengers for both deities and elemental lords. They were appalled that some of them got killed in the lead up to the (primordial vs gods) cosmological war (don't shoot the messenger!).
So this last universe was largely governed by beings that sought to perfect their world by making 'all is one' or the shaping of order and systems that would/could share one means of information. This sounds very much like a Mechanus like universe. The only caveat is that this system was searching for something that very hard to define or make artificially: Love. I think all encompassing love (or the attraction to all) is the opposite of entropy (extropy or neguentropy).
Perhaps the last universe was succesful? Because the end product of the last universe, love, is still very much present in the contemporary universe/multiverse. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 17:24:58
|
I wonder also how the fey came to have a feudal court.
Perhaps the last universe had something to do with that aswell. King Oberon and Queen Titania are probably the first fey to have voices their dissent in having to choose a side, and the support of the common fey put them in a position of power amongst their kin.
It could also very well be that the Faerie Court has had numerous successions of named rulers, and the current Oberon and Titania have managed to stabilize it by their skill at keeping the numerous sides in fey politics happy. If the last royal line was asurped by them somehow, it could have been about some shattering of the dream of the former King and Queen. I believe that dreams and nightmares are THE motive power behind fey politics, and the abolishment of the former court had to be done by proving something about the former Kings dreams was somehow proven false (or real; as in banal or too restrictive). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 18:29:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I wonder also how the fey came to have a feudal court.
Perhaps the last universe had something to do with that aswell. King Oberon and Queen Titania are probably the first fey to have voices their dissent in having to choose a side, and the support of the common fey put them in a position of power amongst their kin.
It could also very well be that the Faerie Court has had numerous successions of named rulers, and the current Oberon and Titania have managed to stabilize it by their skill at keeping the numerous sides in fey politics happy. If the last royal line was asurped by them somehow, it could have been about some shattering of the dream of the former King and Queen. I believe that dreams and nightmares are THE motive power behind fey politics, and the abolishment of the former court had to be done by proving something about the former Kings dreams was somehow proven false (or real; as in banal or too restrictive).
In the book Faerie Tale (mentioned earlier, by me), it was cyclical. The Queen and the Fool (heads of the respective Courts) were once simple little sprites, but had gradually grown in power until they supplanted the previous rulers. And it was an ongoing process, so the Queen and the Fool would eventually be replaced, and would diminish back to simple sprites, without memories of what they had been. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 10:18:13
|
| I had always assumed that the Fey were 'feudal' b/cof that system's propensity for stability. I.e., a king is for life (and an immortal king is forever) whereas most other systems tend towards dynamic personalites: the senator or potentate of this or that satrapy or district may change over time. An eternal kingdom doesn't. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 10:51:21
|
As chaotic sorts the fey probably need little social structure and would be inclined towards anarchy anyhow.
A feudal system allows (and actually encourages) vassals and intermediates to accumulate personal power and build their "fiefdoms" while demanding some sort of recognition or allegiance to those ranked above them. The vassal's obligations to his lord would quite often be symbolic and perfunctory - the feudal system serves and maintains (and tolerates) the status quo of all the nobility from all stations, and basically lets each little lordling do his own little thing (up to a limit) with a minimum of supervision or conformity.
A feudal system is decentralized and difficult to defy or overthrow. Minor lordlings are basically competitors and typically not above taking advantage of each other's misfortunes. Overthrowing the powerful system (by ambitiously promoting oneself) is impossible without some sort of organized conspiracy, yet this sort of thing is nearly impossible to implement when you cannot trust your allies.
The hierarchy of fey nobility is probably organized much like that of any other society of chaotic creatures (even Tanar'ri) - the positions of greatest power are occupied by those strong and cunning enough to seize and retain them. "Strength" in fey society might be defined less by raw blasting and strapping muscles; more by subtle and skillful manipulations, illusion, enchantment, charisma and magical binding, perhaps even measured in part by influence that can be exerted beyond the borders of the Feywild. The upper ranks of fey nobility would be fearsomely capable opponents, driven by inhuman fey psychology. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Dec 2010 11:03:25 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 11:02:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
This goes well with my theory that fey were originally messengers for both deities and elemental lords. They were appalled that some of them got killed in the lead up to the (primordial vs gods) cosmological war (don't shoot the messenger!).
So this last universe was largely governed by beings that sought to perfect their world by making 'all is one' or the shaping of order and systems that would/could share one means of information. This sounds very much like a Mechanus like universe. The only caveat is that this system was searching for something that very hard to define or make artificially: Love. I think all encompassing love (or the attraction to all) is the opposite of entropy (extropy or neguentropy).
Perhaps the last universe was succesful? Because the end product of the last universe, love, is still very much present in the contemporary universe/multiverse.
To me they seemed as rebels, messengers implies they had a serving role, not sure that fits with the fey nature. The two cosmological forces at war called the fey collective the Anomaly unable to understand them. The warring forces were indeed in a Mechanus-like state, the weakening of entropy also reduced negentropy causing the two forces to merge and devour themselves into nothing (or just helium at absolute zero). The Anomaly escaped that fate cause while they were in ''all is one'' state they were also about balance, the parts of the collective were free. It's an impossible state to describe, an infinite number of individual beings communicating nonlocally, ''in love''.
For the courts I think the most interesting option would be that Titania and Oberon were overthrown and reinstated multiple times. Only Emmantiensien was there all the time. I don't know how they came to be, maybe it was a custom introduced by a human changeling. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 07:04:50
|
'Rebels' also implies they were subservient at some point. You can't 'rebel' unless you were already a part of 'it'.
There is absolutely no reason you can't have it both way. The Fey (in your worlds) may have been something akin to 'heralds', representing 'the gods' on the earthly (prime) plane. During the war, the various gods would have taken sides (save for a few), but their servants may have decided they could not fight one-another, and so refused to fight (and thus, rebelled).
I don't use that, but I continue to tweak what I have.
Keeping within the confines of canon (which is restrictive but challenging), the Fey were one of the five races to appear on Toril after the creation of the first sun, but before The Sundering and the death of that first sun. I am going to have to look at those draconic myths again - I still haven't nailed-down precisely what part the Dragons play in the cosmic scheme of things (I can't seem to use the fact that they arrived 'late' onto Toril, after the Creator Races). Obviously the Fey have issue with them, since they sent their 'lesser children' (the Sylvan Elves) to the Prime material to fight them. that is one piece of the puzzle I can't work out. The Fey preceded them on Toril, then left for the Feywild, and then sent 'kids' back to fight dragons... for what? I'm just not getting that whole part - there is something happening there between the fey exodus and the Dragon Eggs showering down onto Toril.
I also have to work-in how the Giants got involved. The Planer Giants (Jotuns) were 'vassals' of the elemental lords, I think. They actually may have been the 'first men' - the prototypes for modern humans, created by the Prime Ordials when they were designing the cosmos. The Djen were the actual vassals - part of the Elemental hierarchy. I have to figure out the relationship between the Giants and the Djen as well (along with the dragons, all three have elemental leanings). One source states that the dragons were originally servants of the giants, which makes me now wonder at the schism that caused those two powerful groups to become enemies, instead of uniting against the cvommon threat of elves and dwarves.
Right now I'm toying with the idea that the Planer Giants 'unleashed the hounds' (dragons) onto the prime material to hunt-down the betrayers (the fey that freed the Dwarves from their servitude). Not sure how that all fits - I will have to dissect the proto-timeline yet again. I'm thinking that the dragons felt somehow betrayed themselves (or simply decided once free that they liked it, VERY MUCH). The Giant timeline is screwing me up once again - its SO convoluted (and there were obviously at least two separate periods of 'Giant Empires'). I have to see if I can get one snafu to fix another - its always nice when that works out.
The Planer Giants are NOT the forbears of Faerûn's Giants, which is part of my problem. Annam - a primordial - had to have sired two separate (yet strikingly similar) lines of giants (thanks to Giantcraft and that trilogy, we have both a god for each subrace, AND a Progenitor/Exarch, which is redundant).
Anyhow, back to the Fey. In my version, the Fey didn't work for the gods, but rather, with the gods (and some even became gods). I may still be able to reconclie your two versions with my own. In the beginning, there were NO gods - only Ordials (that group that the primOrdials are part of). In time, as they worked with the Creator Races to build their world (which is NOT the world we know of - that was Abeir-Toril, certain powerful mortals gained prominence, and eventually ascended to divine status (BTW, some of this is actually covered in Savage Frontier - read about Elrem, 'the great Worm', who started an apotheosis into that form through worship - something VERY similar to the process Dragon Kings take in the tome of the same name).
Therefor, the elite amongst the Creator Races ascended, either naturally (through veneration) or by having a patron amongst the (Prim)Ordials, and would have served the primordials in their tasks... until they grew tired of that and wanted the world for themselves. I think that was when the fey would have 'called it quits' and decided not to get involved. The 'gods' of the other Creator Races probably took sides, and we see where that got them.
This is where I blend the Fey/Elven lore with that of the D&D Genesis - the first sun was an Ordial - that race of beings that preceded the deities. The second one was merely a deity (as was the first, after it's resurrection). The second sun's creation was partly brought-about by the simultaneous outcry (and desire) of a million mortal beings for 'a new sun', whereas the first was demoted in stature, having lost much power in death (and by dying, tying itself to the 'mortal world', as deities are). Shar and Selûne lost much of their power as well (and may have also both 'died'), and in the aftermath of the war of light & Darkness were also of a 'lessened' status (which may have been by choice, in Selûne's case, so she could stay with Toril and the deities). The earthmother was also lessened, for she was split in-twain (which is why we have Chauntea and Maztica - read the Maztica fluff and you'll realize that Maztica didn't disappear... it just 'went home'). If you follow the Maztican legends, Maztica (their earth-goddess) NEVER co-existed with Chauntea - she was 'no longer around'. And Kukul - their 'father of the gods' - is quite obviously Ao. THAT lore isn't from Toril - its a hold-over from when Maztica was part of Abeir before. To be honest, Maztica being originally from another world actually makes more sense, in retrospect.
And once-again, I went down a side-track... 
As for the Fey, they were the first affected by Shar's betrayal, because she poisoned the earthnodes, which sickened/corrupted many of the Fey. In hind-sight, this probably saved them as a race. Whereas time runs differently to gods (a year to us is like a day to them), and the WoL&D took time to escalate (both sides seeking allies), the Fey had time to shear-off a piece of the dreamtime and create the feywild. By the time the A'tar (the sun) died, the fey had already (mostly) abandoned Toril. The other three Creator Races all but died-off, but humanity showed its versatility, and thus proved it was the 'Race of Destiny' by it's ability to adapt to any event, however catastrophic (I think the Grimlocks may be a hold-over from this dark time).
BTW, I now started using 'fey' to define the earthly races that have evolved over time, and the ones we have come to know in D&D lore. On the other hand, the 'Fae' (or Fay) are the ones that dwell within the Feywild. Humans would have a hard time telling the two apart, but fae can still shift into other fey forms, and are basically immortal. However, earthly fey can still journey to the feywild and within one generation - their offspring - be 'attuned' to its nature (and re-establish their ancient Shee heritage). Shee denotes the entire race of elfin creatures (as fey does in the prime), but it is spelled either 'Sidhe' or 'Sith', depending upon the court they are associated with (and although the human ear might have trouble with that, the fae KNOW - there is a racial empathy that goes along with many fey terms that cannot be translated by normal spoken words). 'Le Shay' is a special term for a branch of aloof, epic-level Fae who are now going by a term coined on a (French?) prime material world. Uber-powerful fae like Titania, Oberon, The Huntsman, Auril, etc would also be considered "Le'shay" by game-standards, but would probably laugh if some prime called them that (and as I have stated numerous times, there is absolutely NO difference between an uber-powerful, epic mortal and a demi-power, thus eliminating any need to further define just what those beings 'are'). They are Archfey, and leave it at that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2010 18:18:47 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 07:38:07
|
If you think the stuff concerning the Tree Ghost is interesting, then you need to read the Grandfather in Green plothook on pg.63 - it appears the 'spirit of the Forest' can even manifest an avatar!
I never realized how interesting each Uthgardt tribe was until I re-read that old source. Barbarians - not just for breakfast anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That theory is pretty good, for me excluding the Yehimals (they are only in the North in my Realms, Norse/Germanic mythology area).
I was hoping to get some feedback on the concept of Jergal's deal, and how the three must take turns with the portfolio. I wanted to make A'tar a female (like in Bedine folklore), but it didn't work, so I made him sort-of androgynous pretty (like Corellon).
Hey! I just realized - the FR version of the head of the Elven pantheon should be named Ellon!
I still have to figure out how this FR-specific 'creation Myth' blends with core D&D. I've tried several possible models, and they all have flaws. Its hard to justify FR's 'importance' in regards to the rest of the multiverse. having a slew of races on-planet is one thing, but to say they were all created there really screws-up D&D's greater mythos (in regards to SJ, PS, and even RL)
Hell, even the Shades appeared in Greyhawk first - its really hard for me to justify everything came from Realmspace (which the Realms lore assumes is the case, it appears). i may have to go back to the beginning, with Ymir and the creation of the Great Wheel, and say that all other worlds are 'echoes' of Abeir-Toril when it was viloently sundered. If time itself was 'broken', then pieces of Temporal Prime may have 'gotten away' and evolved into separate, alternate realities. Now I just have to figure out why Kronus (and Ptah) would have let that happen.
Hmmmm... Temporal Prime, the Prime Materail, Primordials... i may have something... both Mystra AND Aumanator were said to be Toril's 'time gods'...
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
These sorts of stories/soaps about divine families are popular in all mythologies, personally I find them obnoxious. I prefer to have gods less anthropomorphized. The Hand of Fate and A'tar parts are nice (being drained, and Shar filling its dreams with nightmares).
It is not meant to be 'literal' - that was the style I wrote my mythological piece in (and what I can recall from memory - there was quite a bit more).
It was written to be an excerpt form an in-game source, which was written by Markothius the Mad Sage once of forgotten Tsharoon (who's entire populous was said have eventually gone mad). The idea was that it is supposed to be a tome kept 'under wraps' in Candlekeep (similar to how I wrote my one CKC article). The validity could never be confirmed - its just a set of myths regarding the War of Light & Darkness, which may or may not contain a few 'half truths'.
Anyhow, it may not be as useful to you or others for game-purposes, but I find that that allegory-style entertaining, and also allows you to fiddle with the specific facts involved as much as you like. I did the same thing when I recently re-read Bulfinch's Mythology (which inspired me to write that now-lost manuscript) - I looked at the story-events I was reading and translated them into real-world (scientific) concepts. Its amazing how many of those myths describe real events when you read them that way (read the tale of Phaeton and tell me that's NOT describing a major meteoric cataclysm). The purpose of the stories is to give our game meta-knowledge a little of that 'Realms Flavor', and make us see 'the divine' through our character's eyes (and religions).
The 'soap-opera' style allowed for me to smooth-over some lore snafus as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 25 Dec 2010 07:45:53 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 15:51:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you think the stuff concerning the Tree Ghost is interesting, then you need to read the Grandfather in Green plothook on pg.63 - it appears the 'spirit of the Forest' can even manifest an avatar!
I never realized how interesting each Uthgardt tribe was until I re-read that old source. Barbarians - not just for breakfast anymore.
They have potential, I plan to expand their pre-history, including some other tribes, like the Ice Hunters and Shoanti from Pathfinder.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
I was hoping to get some feedback on the concept of Jergal's deal, and how the three must take turns with the portfolio. I wanted to make A'tar a female (like in Bedine folklore), but it didn't work, so I made him sort-of androgynous pretty (like Corellon).
I did not comment on Jergal, he's too alien, I plan to work something with the spellweavers, phaerimm and the great race of yith. And turn Corellon to Chauntea.
quote:
Hell, even the Shades appeared in Greyhawk first - its really hard for me to justify everything came from Realmspace (which the Realms lore assumes is the case, it appears). i may have to go back to the beginning, with Ymir and the creation of the Great Wheel, and say that all other worlds are 'echoes' of Abeir-Toril when it was viloently sundered. If time itself was 'broken', then pieces of Temporal Prime may have 'gotten away' and evolved into separate, alternate realities. Now I just have to figure out why Kronus (and Ptah) would have let that happen.
In one of adventure I ran it the fey shattered the Temporal Prime, they build the megaliths (timeless constructs from Mystara), the pcs dragged one with the Spelljammer.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
It was written to be an excerpt form an in-game source, which was written by Markothius the Mad Sage once of forgotten Tsharoon (who's entire populous was said have eventually gone mad).
Lol, great idea. I had the ruins of Carcosa in the Quoya.
quote:
Its amazing how many of those myths describe real events when you read them that way (read the tale of Phaeton and tell me that's NOT describing a major meteoric cataclysm).
Indeed amazing. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2010 : 15:51:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Rebels' also implies they were subservient at some point. You can't 'rebel' unless you were already a part of 'it'.
Not necessarily, remember when Bush said ''you're either with us, or against us'', I imagined something like that, they refused to be involved in the final conflict. I mentioned the Demiurge (Ao-like figure in my world) is the source of both chaos and law in my world, a true tyrant controls both sides, the fey then became free of any multiversal bonds, they were born in the system but they transcended it.
Also expanding on the Tall Tales myth, I imagine there were no gods in the previous universe, no religious worship, only ageless beings. Fey were the race of destiny there, they were all about immortality (Life), they wanted to escape these cycles of existence. In the current entropic universe, humans as the race destiny is about mortality, wanting to escape death (and the whole petitioner-god system that runs the tyrannical wheel, achieve the ''god is dead'').
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Keeping within the confines of canon (which is restrictive but challenging), the Fey were one of the five races to appear on Toril after the creation of the first sun, but before The Sundering and the death of that first sun.
I disagree that the fey first appeared on Toril, they were born from the dreams of other creator races, the dreams exist outside of the Prime. Through the Sundering ritual the realm of dreams and fey was bound to the prime world (with the earth nodes as anchors) and shares its destiny, they made themselves the creator race that way, they weren't no longer slaves to mortal belief, those that became mortal. The sun did not really die, it's just Shar ''temporarily'' closing down Selune's radiant gates (Shar is the enemy of change, time is change).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am going to have to look at those draconic myths again - I still haven't nailed-down precisely what part the Dragons play in the cosmic scheme of things ...
Can't help you much, being no fan of dragons. To me in the cosmic scheme is about the conflict of two sides, freedom and tyranny. That reflects in the basic forms. Serpentine forms are circular, they are about control and the system, they embrace the order and the cycles of the universe. Humanoid forms are more direct, individualistic and rebellious. The reptilian brains are autonomic, incapable of dreaming and uncreative. Serpentine forms follow the path of pure predictable natural selection, while the humanoid evolution makes impossible transcendental jumps (influenced by belief). The sauroid creator race diverged into two evolutionary paths, those that became dragons lost the creator race status, while a few others became the avian creator race. That's why the dragons were in conflict with the more free-minded races of the avians, fey and giants. It's a Nietzchean master-slave-morality conflict and dragons are experts of manipulation through fear. In the origins myths of my world, the first race were the helions, they spawned from the primal mindfire spewed by the Phoenix, there were two types, the Twin Serpents and Promethean-like humanoid figures, the ''lightbearers''.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Planer Giants (Jotuns) were 'vassals' of the elemental lords, I think. They actually may have been the 'first men' - the prototypes for modern humans, created by the Prime Ordials when they were designing the cosmos.
Imo the planar giants appeared much later, first there was only the prime, with the development of sentience and belief on the prime the first planes were created. The prototypes part I agree, but not the about vassals. Giants/Titans are not about bending knees to some lords, actually I don't think that the elemental lords actually exist, they are nonsentient natural forces given names by the ignorant. That's why they don't respond to worship. Humans/giants/titans are alchemical embodiments of these forces (combinations of time, matter, energy ...). The word primordial sounds orderly, I use it for beings like the helions, vaati, dharum suhn and the Sleeping Ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Djen were the actual vassals - part of the Elemental hierarchy. I have to figure out the relationship between the Giants and the Djen as well (along with the dragons, all three have elemental leanings).
They are elemental spirits of magic, it fits with my story about giants, alchemy and elementalism.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right now I'm toying with the idea that the Planer Giants 'unleashed the hounds' (dragons) onto the prime material to hunt-down the betrayers (the fey that freed the Dwarves from their servitude). Not sure how that all fits - I will have to dissect the proto-timeline yet again. I'm thinking that the dragons felt somehow betrayed themselves (or simply decided once free that they liked it, VERY MUCH). The Giant timeline is screwing me up once again - its SO convoluted (and there were obviously at least two separate periods of 'Giant Empires'). I have to see if I can get one snafu to fix another - its always nice when that works out.
I don't know, I could explain that in my world, you are trying to make everything fit, takes a lot of work. To me the serpents are magic, maybe giants dabbled into things they shouldn't, psionics is for them, involving with the occult and arcana invokes curses on you.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for the Fey, they were the first affected by Shar's betrayal, because she poisoned the earthnodes, which sickened/corrupted many of the Fey. In hind-sight, this probably saved them as a race. Whereas time runs differently to gods (a year to us is like a day to them), and the WoL&D took time to escalate (both sides seeking allies), the Fey had time to shear-off a piece of the dreamtime and create the feywild. By the time the A'tar (the sun) died, the fey had already (mostly) abandoned Toril. The other three Creator Races all but died-off, but humanity showed its versatility, and thus proved it was the 'Race of Destiny' by it's ability to adapt to any event, however catastrophic (I think the Grimlocks may be a hold-over from this dark time).
Maybe you could involve that dawn titan that made the Steelsky in Abeir for A'tar. I don't use that part of 4e lore, but I remember there was a story involving titans and dragons in FRCG, possibly you can find an answer there about their relationship.
quote:
BTW, I now started using 'fey' to define the earthly races that have evolved over time, and the ones we have come to know in D&D lore. On the other hand, the 'Fae' (or Fay) are the ones that dwell within the Feywild. Humans would have a hard time telling the two apart, but fae can still shift into other fey forms, and are basically immortal. However, earthly fey can still journey to the feywild and within one generation - their offspring - be 'attuned' to its nature (and re-establish their ancient Shee heritage). Shee denotes the entire race of elfin creatures (as fey does in the prime), but it is spelled either 'Sidhe' or 'Sith', depending upon the court they are associated with (and although the human ear might have trouble with that, the fae KNOW - there is a racial empathy that goes along with many fey terms that cannot be translated by normal spoken words). 'Le Shay' is a special term for a branch of aloof, epic-level Fae who are now going by a term coined on a (French?) prime material world. Uber-powerful fae like Titania, Oberon, The Huntsman, Auril, etc would also be considered "Le'shay" y game-standards, but would probably laugh if some prime called them that (and as I have stated numerous times, there is absolutely NO difference between an uber-powerful, epic mortal and a demi-power, thus eliminating any need to further define just what those beings 'are'). They are Archfey, and leave it at that.
Yea, I'll keep these differences just as a matter of language, any more categorization just complicates things. My Realms are anyway more like the mythological Earth so leshay would be a Tethyrian (Frankish) name for a group of powerful fey in the Moonshaes (or parallel to). Leshay really come from Slavic mythology, from leshis and lesniks so it's a name for another group of fey in Damara, Thesk and around. |
|
|
|
Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 02:31:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... Temporal Prime, the Prime Materail, Primordials... i may have something... both Mystra AND Aumanator were said to be Toril's 'time gods'...
Yeah, but wasn't Amaunator's assumption based on an error in the text of a contract made between himself and another deity? He wasn't actually the God of Time, IIRC.
|
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 26 Dec 2010 02:32:19 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 11:37:22
|
Esoteric theological dispute. The fact of the matter is Mystryl/Mystra grants and maintains Time Travel magics whereas Amaunator/Lathander does not.
Strangely, this peculiar misambiguity over the exact context of the word "time" is what also inspired the Cult of the Dragon. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 22:16:01
|
Yes, but sometimes when you are creating Homebrew lore, you try to root it in as many canon 'facts' as you can - I was just taking some puzzle pieces and seeing if I could get anything 'to work'.
We also have a canon 'Kronus' in the Realms. 
Someone - perhaps George K. - tried to connect that deity to Aumanator through that esoteric bit about his 'timely contract'. I vaguely remember that, but not the details.
I also find it VERY strange that Mystra was the goddess of time, and yet she was able to do nothing about her own demise. How can you be the goddess in charge of the time-Stream (which contains all future events), and yet not know what is coming?
My Conjecture: She wasn't, plain and simple. I have mentioned numerous times before about how I think part of Mystra's faith was to obscure certain 'facts' ('Lady of Mysteries', ya' know), in order to self-promote her own portfolio(s). This point is demonstrated by the fact that although her clergy espoused that she was the 'goddess of all magic', we canonically know that was not true. We are aware of several 'forms' she had no power over.
I don't think Mystra's church 'lies' - I think what they are are the ultimate 'spin-doctors'. What Mystra must have been in-charge of (temporally) was one particular path within Temporal Prime. Since 'the world' was on THAT path, it was easy for them to simply say she was the 'goddess of time' (which was true, so long as time stayed on it's current path). What Shar did was create (or rather, steer) the timeline down a divergent Path that Mystra had no control over or knowledge of (hence, the 'Dark Prophesies').
The chain-of-events Shar set in motion - either at the beginning of the ToT or much further back - obscured the future from beings like Mystra and Savras (who should have also seen it coming). Mystra might have 'Mysteries', but Shar keeps 'secrets'.
Anyhow, I haven't come up with anything yet - my mind is already a hundred projects away. It will 'cycle-back' eventually. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Dec 2010 22:21:40 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 08:14:22
|
I find it strange that time travellers can pass through periods where Mystra was dead. The time traveller should hit a "wall of time", an impassible barrier set at the closest instant the time/magic goddess is dead/absent. Unless of course some other deity (or none at all) governs time.
FWIW, I think Amaunator's god-of-all-time claim was pretty weak. Quibbling and grasping over ambiguous wording seems like the sort of thing whining priests of Cyric would do instead. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 11:11:47
|
| I thought about what MT said about incarnum and the fey realm in the east. Now's easier to accept that the fey land was on Toril. Magic of Incarnum mentions the Wellspring (a cobalt-blue monolith) in Raurin and that fits with the Imaskari dealing with the leshay. Then the disposition of the fey realms could be based on the incarnum chakras (focal points of energy), the axis would be like the Vitruvian man with the base-sacral-earth chakra in the Imaskari area (it's called the Cradlelands). In Chessenta the water chakra (nymphs), continuing with fire (Lake of Steam), and the heart chakra (Heartlands), the brow-third eye related to the fomorian corruption and beholders etc. maybe the crown for Azlant and Evermeet (or that polar civilization). For humans the system of ten chakras fits (fingers, base-ten numeral system), the traditional system of seven would be of the dark nagas (no arms, legs ...). The leylines (aka the ''linnorm currents'') would be a serpentine swirl of energies around ''the man'', trying to get a grip (also similar to the Ashardalon story). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 15:20:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also find it VERY strange that Mystra was the goddess of time, and yet she was able to do nothing about her own demise. How can you be the goddess in charge of the time-Stream (which contains all future events), and yet not know what is coming?
Very simple. She could have been focused on just making sure the timestream flowed nicely and in one direction.
Look at how much in the Realms wouldn't have happened if she saw the future: the fall of Netheril, Sammaster, the Time of Troubles, the rise of the Shadow Weave... Obviously, making sure time flowed correctly did not include seeing what was ahead.
Besides, we had Savras as the deity who could see ahead in time. If nothing else, that proves that Mystra couldn't, and that it therefore was not a part of maintaining Time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 15:50:09
|
The management of the time continuum can often be a fickle practice... even for a deity. Now, factor in the reality that Mystra also manages the Weave and it's intimate connection with all life on Toril, and maybe it's simply about her having "too much on her divine plate."
Alternatively, the simplest explanation might also be the most applicable. Perhaps Ao has deemed that any deity responsible for managing the time-stream can only observe and NEVER interfere. Otherwise the cosmic/temporal/divine complications could be reality-shattering. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 16:14:00
|
Accurate knowledge of present and future conditions in timespace violates the uncertainty principle.
Or, in English, if a deity could observe/know the future but be powerless to avoid what is seen then the universe is fatalistic (instead of deterministic); fates and prophecies are inescapable even to the gods. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 22:14:18
|
What I think is that Mystra only had the arcane aspect of time-magic - Chronomancy - within her portfolio, and either her priesthood just misunderstood the extent of her 'control', or purposefully obfuscated it. It wasn't time itself she governed - it was time-travel and the magics involved in that that fell within her purview.
I think, due to the multi-spheric complications that could arise, time itself MUST be governed by a being outside of the normal godly infrastructure - something even beyond the Primordials. Individual 'Time Paths' (for each world) could have a local god over-seeing it, but time-itself is too monolithic for any one deity to control.
Think about it - you live in Greyhawk and your enemy defeats you with an ioun stone. So you use Chronomancy and then plane travel to Toril, and kill Ioun as a child so he never invents the damn things.
What god covers that scenario?
And yes, I realize just how absurd that scenario is, but its just an example of what I am talking about when it comes to multi-spheric complications. I know just how ridiculous such a plan is.
The point I am trying to make is that if Mystra is the 'Goddess of time', that would mean she is followed in EVERY sphere (with thinking beings). Its actually a canonical impossibility. Time is not world-specific, so neither can the being who holds dominion over it be.
I am still 'on the hunt' for my Netherease Gur, but in the meantime I keep learning 'new' stuff about FR, some of which is fey-related.
Brian James' (and 4e) version of Fomorian's doesn't exactly mesh well with FR's Giant(craft) history of giants, and Fomorians in particular.
Or does it? 
I have found a canon example of a 'greater Fomorian' in-source! Thus proving (kinda) their ARE two separate 'levels' of giant - the 'Planer' variety, and the 'local' variety. Since I'm constantly being harangued lately for sources (because I am obviously such a liar), you can find the relevant information on pg.36 of the Wilderness guide in The North boxed set, under the Helimbrar and Sar entry.
My (Homebrew) Thoughts:
Annam was the 'father of Giants' in the Outer planes, and created the race(s) there, but then he (or one of his deific progeny) traveled to various prime-worlds and begat a lesser brood upon local deities. This also explains why on nearly every world ogres have different origins (they are considered goblinoids on Mystara). The races that were first created in the Planes were 'forerunners' of the mortal races that would come later - they were the 'prototypes' (and therefor 'greater' then those that came after). The same could even be true of humanity - at least two settings I know of have examples of that: the 'High Men' of MERP, and the 'First Men' of the Flying Buffalo Citysystem books (an excellent and highly-recommended series of city sourcebooks, if you can still find them). I was going to place just such a race of 'supermen' in my version of the Feywild. Eladrin, naturally, are the elven variant. This also allows FR groups to rectify the newer, 4e giant lore with our older, 'traditional' giant lore (if one cares to do so).
And this is all now making me re-think the connections between the Eladrin and the Fey; anyone know where the main body of Eladrin info can be found? I saw some interesting fey references in an Eberron article last night, which must have been derived from core sources.
Also, Quale, you had mentioned some interesting things a few posts back concerning Mystara's fey lore - is that all derived from Wee Folk, or are their other sources for Mystaran Fey lore?
Imaskar & the Fey:
I always felt that the Fey Creator Race should have originated 'in the east' because their spirit-like nature meshed well with that of the Kami - the Unapproachable East's Spiritfolk are actually human-fey hybrids. Anyhow, this is why I was rather excited when I read about their connection to Imaskar (in the novel Darkvision) and Imaskar of-course was connected to the Anok-Imaskari, who were the precursors of Shou Lung. That makes so much sense, because the Nether Scrolls - from whence the Netherease got much of their arcane learning - were connected to the other three creator races.
I understand all of your leanings, Quale, toward the High forest and Evermeet - the Elven lore there makes them an easy connection to Faerie (especially considering we know Tintageer lie within the boundaries of Faerie). All of that still works - I was only suggesting the Taan/Yehimal region as a starting point for that race, well before they retreated to the feywild (and after that, all those other connections - like Evermeet/Tintageer - were made). Bruce Cordell and I aren't the only ones who have felt the connection; Mark Sehestedt's novels point to the Taan region being heavily connected to 'fey/nature spirits' as well.
I think the Imaskar Empire focused on different areas of study during it's three periods, and various survivor-states ran with particular branches of their lore. Although all pre-Sehestedt lore points to the Raumathari being artificers, Mark Sehestedt has shown their early magic to be more 'geomancer' (arcane druid) in nature. I think the tendency to use arcane automatons (Mechagolems) was something done out of desperation, as the war escalated (they needed SOMETHING that could withstand an assault of fiends while not cowering in fear or running away). In fact, the two blend rather nicely with some musings both GK and I had concerning the nature of their Arcane Juggernaughts - they managed to create suits of mobile armor (akin to Helmed Horrors) that could trap and bind fiends within them. That means not only would they have needed some the Imaskari secrets to craft such 'soldiers', but they would have also needed to tap into their Druidic heritage for some of the spirit-binding aspects of such devices. Those Raumathari 'Warforged' were a hybrid of life and mechanical magic.
And their greatest success, and also greatest failure, was the Copper Demon of Troos.
But that's what they get for trying to control Ma yuan, Assassin of the Gods. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 17:51:35 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Fey realms
