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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 02:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Accurate knowledge of present and future conditions in timespace violates the uncertainty principle.
I don't think applying Earth-based quantum-mechanical laws is really all that appropriate for the Realms. We're dealing with a universe that is specifically described as having a system of physics that is very different from Earth.
quote:
Or, in English, if a deity could observe/know the future but be powerless to avoid what is seen then the universe is fatalistic (instead of deterministic); fates and prophecies are inescapable even to the gods.
This is far more effective, in terms of applying similar Earth-based laws to the Realms. OTOH, we really don't know enough about how the relationship between the time continuum and a deity responsible for the maintenance of the time-stream, really works.
I'm still inclined to believe that Ao may ultimately have the final authority on just what a deity of time can and cannot do -- especially AFTER the catastrophic events of the Time of Troubles, and what happens when gods are given too much "free reign." |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 03:14:05
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| The default D&D treatment seems to be the "time is a river" analogy - events and histories have a certain amount of temporal inertia, great changes to history are difficult but not impossible (events seem to always conspire in some way that maintains the established "flow" of history); D&D deities have greater power to induce change, but they are not omniscient or omnipotent and so the consequences of their actions still ultimate suffer from limitations. It may be that Mystryl was unable to foresee or prevent her own death simply because the historical momentum of "greater" events made her death unavoidable - the river of history flows eternally and has momentum in all possible times, not just in present events, ie: history may be unavoidable even when it hasn't yet been written. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 03:53:33
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IIRC, and it's been a while so I may be misremembering some details, once they introduced Chronomancy into the Realms there were some very specific rules. In traveling to ancient Netheril, the time travel created a sort of brief and party-specific mini-alternate-reality bubble. That is, you could do whatever you wanted in old Netheril, but when you returned to your own time nothing at all had actually been changed. I think you could only stay in that bubble for a maximum of one year before it lost integrity and returned you to your own time and reality, if you didn't return sooner.
So in that regard, Mystryl may have been in charge of watching time, and making sure travelers made their way back, but perhaps some over-riding universal principles were in place that she had no control over. Time may be like a woven cord, tight and unchangeable in the past. In the present, the threads are coming together to make the cord. The future, it's all the various strands of the cord. Some of those outstretching threads will be woven into the cord as it becomes "the now" and some will be snipped. With time travelers, perhaps Mystryl allowed time travelers to visit "snipped" threads (i.e. alternate realites) for up to a year. After that, the non-real alternate reality would decay and even she could not prevent it. And if there are all of these alternate possibilities, time-sensitive gods might be able to view "strong futures vs. weak futures" but unable to see beyond choices that they haven't yet made personally.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 04:02:58
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I've been hunting for Chronomancer stuff for a while; I just haven't yet seen it available (at any reasonable price). Perhaps this means I'll never actually obtain the lore - after all, I could just visit myself from the future and hand it all over.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 17:55:50
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I have it, but its not very useful in terms of running a normal FR game. Time travel tends to complicate things, and if what Therise says is correct (I don't recall off-hand), then it is also rather pointless.
It would be useful only to run a session or two 'in the past', just to give your players something different, but you can do that without owning The Chronomancer.
EDIT: I almost forgot - does anyone know of any good sources for 'dark fey', and in-particular, I am looking for 'twisted dryads'? I vaguely recall something like that, and Ed's thread reminded me of it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 17:57:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 00:40:31
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I found this.
Looks pretty good, albeit grim. It might also prove useful to whoever started the 'evil fey' thread (and from what I gather , the main baddie is a quickling, just like they wanted). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 01:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have it, but its not very useful in terms of running a normal FR game. Time travel tends to complicate things, and if what Therise says is correct (I don't recall off-hand), then it is also rather pointless.
It would be useful only to run a session or two 'in the past', just to give your players something different, but you can do that without owning The Chronomancer.
And, of course, there is also this semi-relevant source as well. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:51:14
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Markus, Dananshee embody the savage merciless side of the natural world (Creature Collection 2), Gloom Dryad, a vicious predatory dryad that exults in decay and death (Monster's Handbook), the Splinterwaif said to prey on small creatures and children turning them into thorny bushes (MM 3, Dragon 307), the Vila, a lawful evil dryad (Dangerous Denizens) and the Waff a shadowy, hungry fey with a host tree (VR's Guide to Shadow Fey). I found all of this on the Sulerin website linked in the Evil Fey thread. Hope it helps.
Also, I guess the game Neverwinter Nights features a Dark Dryad, but I've never played. I was sure I saw that in one of my MMs. I'll keep looking.
And yes, I did encounter that in my travels, thank you, I found an even better write up at Enworld, it's not posted there, but was given freely. I'm not sure I can post it here (Mod?), if any are interested, let me know. Fear the Quickling! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Dec 2010 04:15:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 08:13:46
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Thanx for the link, Sage. I'd actually bumped into Vaults of Pandius before (or so sayeth my browser history), though I think it's likely I instantly disregarded it because of that "Official Mystara Homepage" detail.
Uh ... briefly steering this off-topic further off-topic: has any official link (location) for Mystara been established, planar, spelljamming, etc? My search of Candlekeep yielded six pages of nothing, except only this:
quote:
Gelcur (here, himself quoting GMWestermeyer from "the WotC boards")
Mystara and Red Steel have an alternative magical space travel system, but lack any direct connection to Spelljammer. There are no concrete chronological intersection points between Spelljammer and Mystara nor between Mystara and any other TSR setting, so any connection made here would be purely speculative. A dungeon master who wishes to connect Spelljammer and Mystara would be better served simply choosing a point where the settings' dating systems intersect.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 10:23:33
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@Fellfire - thanks for those, I will have to look for some of them. 
Conjecture:
Mystara probably resides within what is known as a 'Closed Sphere', similar to Athas and Eberron. Although all physical worlds (not planes) reside within the Prime Material, some can be 'hidden' from prying eyes (and Spelljammers); I offer Abeir as a precedent for such a world. This is usually done by an 'Overgod' (Spheric Guardian), but in some cases it could also be done by a consensus (Mystara's Immortals), or even a cataclysm (the death of the gods of Athas and life-draining somehow knocked that world 'out of sync' with the rest of the multiverse). In fact, Athas may have gone into some sort of default 'safety mode', since it's godless nature leaves it ripe for other-worldly incursions (and without magic, you certainly can't Spelljam, either). Life-draining helms may be the only option in Athaspace.
Hmmmm... ya know... that 'default mode' may be why Abeir was hidden as well (another 'world without gods'?) Leaving a world divinely 'undefended' could be a cosmic-no-no, because its like leaving the door open to the hen-house (in the case of fiends and all sorts of other badness, including gods from other worlds). Mortals may actually need gods, to keep them safe from planer depredations.
The Known World:
I get the feeling that Mystara was meant to be the D&D Earth in some truly ancient (pre-Hyborian) period. Then again, I've heard the same said about Oerth (Greyhawk). If my hunch about all worlds just being 'slices in time' of a now-defunct proto-prime World (possibly Abeir-Toril), then all worlds are really just 'alternate Earths' (including the D&D earth). That means that Spelljamming allows you to pass through the 'Temporal medium' of Quantum reality and enter other realities (as would plane-hopping spells). This line of reasoning is similar to how the multiverse is laid-out in the Elric novels, and also in the Chronicles of Amber and the World of Tiers series of novels. That means 'Arcane space' and the Phlogistn are actually dimensions of time and space, and by moving through them, you aren't really moving in a normal, physical manner (in other words, while you are remaining stationary in regards to the prime material, you are moving 'up' or 'down' through the Quantum layers. It actually works VERY similar to how one traveled to 'other worlds' in 3e (through the Shadow plane). The only real difference is you are using a magical boat to facilitate that travel.
We (FR) get a lot of our critters from Mystara, and aside to the similarity in names to a certain goddess, I think the two worlds are connected somehow. I haven't quite come up with a theory that I like 100% yet. They are also connected by the fact Ed Greenwood designed for both of them (if that has anything to do with it, at least from a meta-gaming perspective).
On-Topic:
Also found more interesting stuff in a couple of sources regarding fey and fey-related creatures, and also something to do with another of my theories about Giants (corroborated by the 4e Preview books, of all places!) Seems I was totally on-track with the relationship between Giants and Dwarves. 
I may elaborate on that tomorrow, or I may not... I am in the middle of deciding something right now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2010 10:36:20 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 11:13:40
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Mystara was Earth millions of years ago, there's one immortals adventure with a portal to Chicago. Mystara has a different cosmology with dimensions, closed off, maybe the beings known as the Old Ones (above hierarchs) are like Ao.
Arik, there are no spelljamming links, only connections that I know is the shadow elf character from Faces of Sigil and a few mentiones in the Inner Planes. Also in Elder Evils it says that Asmodeus exiled an ancient baatorian Zargon below Cynidicea (Mystaran civilization).
Personally I used the Tall Tales like I use the Five Shires, it's one of rare D&D sources on the fey, but I don't see the need to use much else from that world or try to find canon connections.
As for time, I don't see it any more special than other portfolios. More than other races fey traditionally have influence over time. In one campaign I followed Ed's original concept that Lurue was or preceded Mystryl, and Dweomertor (older part of the city) had a time conduit. And the story was that in the beginning there was only linear time (just the Temporal Prime) but the fey in a ritual involving the Megaliths caused the Temporal Prime to shatter. Time became less restrictive i.e. relative, everyone exists in its own little time dimension (though they can be shared).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have found a canon example of a 'greater Fomorian' in-source! Thus proving (kinda) their ARE two separate 'levels' of giant - the 'Planer' variety, and the 'local' variety.
In mythology the fomorians have a variety, there are even beautiful fomorians. Birthright has smarter fomorians as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My (Homebrew) Thoughts:
Annam was the 'father of Giants' in the Outer planes, and created the race(s) there, but then he ...
So in your homebrew the outer planes are older than the Prime?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was going to place just such a race of 'supermen' in my version of the Feywild. Eladrin, naturally, are the elven variant.
You know in Planescape there are human-like beings that live in hyper-reality, the mercurials.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And this is all now making me re-think the connections between the Eladrin and the Fey; anyone know where the main body of Eladrin info can be found? I saw some interesting fey references in an Eberron article last night, which must have been derived from core sources.
PS MC 2, Warriors of Heaven and Planes of Chaos. On the net I found these links useful eladrin, eladrin2, eladrin history.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, Quale, you had mentioned some interesting things a few posts back concerning Mystara's fey lore - is that all derived from Wee Folk, or are their other sources for Mystaran Fey lore?
Other sources don't have much of fey ancient history (Mystara MC I i II, Shadow Elves and Alfheim). Almost all is stolen from the Tall Tales and the Immortals rules and box (but selectively, most of the stuff I disagree). I picked the parts of Mystara-lore that fit and expanded for the leshay story. Actually the first elves there were from the land of Evergrun (that land was covered with ice after the fall of Blackmoor) created by the treant immortal Ordana.
Additionally I remember from the immortals books, the creation of Faunus by magic. The dragon immortal's story I think implies that the draconic fascination with treasure is a fey curse. Note that immortals in Mystara believe that dragons and draedens are related, but I digress. Immortal Ixion's story differs too much from mythology for my world but he'd fit for a member of the fey creator race.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Imaskar & the Fey:
I always felt that the Fey Creator Race should have originated 'in the east' because their spirit-like nature meshed well with that of the Kami - the Unapproachable East's Spiritfolk are actually human-fey hybrids. Anyhow, this is why I was rather excited when I read about their connection to Imaskar (in the novel Darkvision) and Imaskar of-course was connected to the Anok-Imaskari, who were the precursors of Shou Lung. That makes so much sense, because the Nether Scrolls - from whence the Netherease got much of their arcane learning - were connected to the other three creator races.
I felt the kami (and genies) were too different from from fey, they fit into the gods-systems (the Bureaucracy and Fate), and in the eastern religions dragons play a different role. So I decided to associate fey with the indoeuropean mythologies, Imaskari being like the proto-indoeuropeans in my world.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Imaskar & the Fey:
I understand all of your leanings, Quale, toward the High forest and Evermeet - the Elven lore there makes them an easy connection to Faerie (especially considering we know Tintageer lie within the boundaries of Faerie). All of that still works - I was only suggesting the Taan/Yehimal region as a starting point for that race, well before they retreated to the feywild (and after that, all those other connections - like Evermeet/Tintageer - were made). Bruce Cordell and I aren't the only ones who have felt the connection; Mark Sehestedt's novels point to the Taan region being heavily connected to 'fey/nature spirits' as well.
That is fine, I meant the fey civilization covered entire Faerun, with centres (fey courts or ''cities'') where's the highest concentration of incarnum/radiance (chakras).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[b]I think the Imaskar Empire focused on different areas of study during it's three periods, and various survivor-states ran with particular branches of their lore. Although all pre-Sehestdt lore points to the Raumathari being artificers, Mark Sehestedt has shown their early magic to be more 'geomancer' (arcane druid) in nature. I think the tendency to use arcane automatons (Mechagolems) was something done out of desperation, as the war escalated (they needed SOMETHING that could withstand an assault of fiends while not cowering in fear or running away). In fact, the two blend rather nicely with some musings both GK and I had concerning the nature of their Arcane Juggernaughts - they managed to create suits of mobile armor (akin to Helmed Horrors) that could trap and bind fiends within them. That means not only would they have needed some the Imaskari secrets to craft such 'soldiers', but they would have also needed to tap into their Druidic heritage for some of the spirit-binding aspects of such devices. Those Raumathari 'Warforged' were a hybrid of life and mechanical magic.
That is cool, maybe the problem was when they started using metal (iron) for binding, not what fey originally taught them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 14:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We (FR) get a lot of our critters from Mystara, and aside to the similarity in names to a certain goddess, I think the two worlds are connected somehow. I haven't quite come up with a theory that I like 100% yet. They are also connected by the fact Ed Greenwood designed for both of them (if that has anything to do with it, at least from a meta-gaming perspective).
Ed also designed for Golarion. That doesn't mean the Realms is connected to it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 02:13:50
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I know one of the 3e books had something about 'Elder treants', but I haven't gone through any of them yet. Right now I'm enjoying my trip down memory lane, re-reading all the older (TSR) stuff. Anyhow, the 1986 Creature Catalogue (which pre-dates the Mystara MM, and was 'the original' 1eMM source) has Gakarak which seems to be the anti-social variant of what I was looking for.
I have to thank Sage at this time, since his post with the link to Time and Mystara lead me to the Oard, which in-turn lead me to this early source. I have to just comment on how I love the way they organized that tome. Too bad they didn't keep that format.
Other notables (pertaining to this thread) that didn't appear in the latter MM:
Faedorne (Fae-Dorne?) are fey-like females that live high abve the world (on earthmotes?). I will include some of them when I do a map of the Feywild (eventually).
Humonculous - not precisely related, but in my own HB lore I have connected Humoncli to the Imaskari and their spirit-binding magics, almost as a precursor to the warforged (you create a physcial body, and then summon an 'Imp' to possess it). I'm now using that as a catch-all for all weak, Gen-like extra-planer spirits, which would include those bound in familiars). This part of the 'Imaskari magical heritage' would be something brought over with the shou from their world, and pertains to their alchemical leanings.
Juggernaught are not related to this thread, albeit indirectly. I think those are just one variant of the constructs found in both Raumathari and Five Kingdoms ruins. Those would be of a more mechanical, less 'self-directing' nature then golems and other self-aware consructs. The difference, to me anyway, between a simple 'construct' and a golem is that the golem has been infused with a life-force (and the power of the essence you place within the vessel is how powerful your golem can become, but would also increase the chance of losing control). They were also updated in 3eMM2
Kal-Maru and Magen are both interesting, although both would be associated with other planes then the Feywild. Magen almost seem like a pre-cursor to the Thaaluds. Kal-maru are just so cool - I wonder why they were never used again. They definitely have that 'Shadowy' flavor the WotC boys are so lovin' these days. Nightmares are also in this tome, but they appear in plenty of other sources.
Silver Warrior appears to be an elf-specific variant of Helmed Horrors.
Soul Eater would make a great Elder Evil dwelling in the Shadowfel. Could also make a candidate for those antideluvian Shadovari (which I determined was a 'category', and not a race).
Lots of interesting races in that book - I would definitely use the human variants somewhere in FR. Only a few have any bearing on this thread, though...
Flitterling are obviously fey.
Garl are interesting, in that they appear to be of primitive human stock, even though they seem to be very similar to Ogres. My guess would be a race that has split-off from the Hagspawn (who are also off human derivation, if only in-part). Hags and Hagspawn themselves I consider a group of 'twisted fey' from those early days, when the Black Diamond first cast its evil shadow upon the world. I would also include this tome's Chaos Crone in that category. I like these guys, because they seem like a good candidate for the eastern giants (the Coombe giants of Storm Riders), although those seem to be a bit more civilized then these guys (a couple thousand years of evolution could account for that).
Kara-kara may be of interest to the thread-topic, if one were to go with the Tolienesque (homebrew) lore that the orcs themselves are related to the fey. Either way, jungle Orcs are kinda cool (I'd use them in Malatra, or perhaps Maztica).
Phanaton would make a good fit for the Feywild, and could even be a VERY primitive forerunner to the Halflings (although that's not how I would spin it, at least not without some major tweaks). I probably only think this because the Halflings of my homebrew world are raccoon-like.
Rakasta - what can I say? I love these guys!
The obviously mortal creation of the Rakshasa. I lump them in with the Hutaakans for kewlness and definite port-overs for FR.
Shargugh are fey, and I believed appeared in the latter tome as well. Probably related to Wood Woses (which I found elsewhere - like Sylvan Dwarves).
Sollux could be from the plane of Radiance, otherwise not of any value to the topic.
Stalwarts are weird; something from the early days of D&D. I would place them within that uber-human group I mentioned earlier, if at all. A very narcissistic, self-absorbed, confrontational variant.
Wood Imps appear to be fey, although i have other plans for them; as mentioned earlier, I've decided to use 'Imp' as an umbrella-term for a race of relatively weak, extra-planer beings/spirits. They are what mages normally summon for their lesser creation-magics (familiars, Golems, humonculi, intelligent magical items, etc). As you may have guessed, human spirits (ancestors, etc) and even more powerful beings (like fiends) can be summoned for these purposes as-well, but that increases the risk-factor. There are even some uber-creations that contain the spirits of gods (like Mystra and her weave.. or should I say, The Weave and it's Mystra?) 
A lot of the flora and fauna would make good editions to the feywild itself.
Baldander are so much cooler then the Dopplegangers - I consider them the same race in my games (with the Baldanders being the less hive-minded leaders). I assume that these beings, along with many of D&D's other morphic creatures, are all from a common lavalamp-like world in the Far Realms (and unrelated to the psionic-using races like Illithids and Aboleth). Once again, not directly related to the thread-topic, except in an over-arching storyline kinda way. I would assume most greater fey have true sight (so they can recognize each other), and would see right through the guises created by such creatures (making fey a threat to them).
Lesser Banshees are fey-related.
I love Bargda, but only because I am an old-school Runequest fan. They were updated for 3e and renamed Goatfolk (Ibixian). I placed them on the K-T side of the Yehimals, to off-set the Yakfolk of Zakhara and the Minotaurs of Faerûn existing in the parts of the same chain of mountains that extend into those settings. The area becomes Toril's version of the 'beastlands'. Once again, not pertinent to the thread, but for some reason anything with horns seems appropriate for the Feywild. They could even be another off-shoot of the Svartalfar/dark elves (ones that took more bestial visages).
Dragonne have been updated plenty of times since this book, but are worth mentioning because they just seem to me like something someone would find in a Feywild wasteland.
Gyrein are covered in the Mystar MM as well, and i like them, but I don't love them. A Feywild branch of the aeriee? i kinda placed the Nagpa in that role (although that doesn't make it mutually exclusive - the race could have easily gone in multiple directions in the Feywild, just as they have done in the prime).
Bodendruker (Leveller) are begging to go into our Utter East thread, but we already created the Bilophants for that, so these guys can go in the more primal parts of the Feywild.
Pegataur are in the Mystara MM as well, but worth mention again because of their dual-fey nature. A throwback to the early days of the fey, when memebrs volunteered to become their 'cavalry'. I suppose like the Eladrin, those that lived long enough to enter the epic tier were able to grow wings.
The Pocket Dragon seems a variant of the Faerie dragon, but without the butterfly wings (typical draconic wings instead). This could be the normal version, before the Fey got a hold of them.
Wychglow seem to be a subterranean variant of Will-O-Wisps.
Yowlers, with their human-like faces (which the illustration appears to have gotten wrong) seem related to Manticores (and perhaps sphinx). Obviously some sort of genetic-meddling going on there, which can be attributed to the creator races, which may make them relevant (and another creature I can picture in the Feywild).
A lot of creatures that have 'man-like parts' could be attributed to the Creator Races, and their experimentation upon early humans. There could be all sorts of weird combination creatures that have died-off in the Prime, but are still active in the Feywild. You can slap a human face on anything - even a flower - and make it fey-like.
The Possession and Sacrol bear mentioning, if only because they pertain to other things I have discussed above; the Possession is obviously an un-summoned imp that has taken it upon itself to take up residence inside an item. The Sacrol seems to be related (in a round-about way) to our 'spirit of the forest'. Apparently, even a place of powerful emotions can develop its own 'overmind' (I would assume anything that generates any type of 'energy field' can do this, be it spiritual, psionic, magical, etc..)
The Wyrd (both varieties) are a type of undead Elf, so they pertain to the topic, and the Shadowfel.
There were some other notables, like the Topi (undead brownies?), but I mentioned them before in reference to the later (2e) Mystara tome.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2010 02:29:22 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 11:54:55
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The epic level book has the elder treants. I've already catalogued hundreds of fey for our world, even looked through the rest of the Monster Annuals you said. There are a lot sentient trees-types like Gakarak in D&D, in Ravenloft the Blackroot (Shadow Rift), Greyhawk's lyrannikin (From the Ashes), and in MCA v.1.
Faedorne are from the Blade of Vengeance adventure, on the isle is above Alfheim, I planned to place it above near Flamsterd, tough the isle is bigger in my Realms. Shargughs, silver warriors and flitterlings are in the adventure as well.
I agree about the humonculi and juggernaughts, except the juggernaughts were invented later, from an Imaskari tradition in Durpar, when an avatar of Vishnu (Krishna) appeared. Same with the magen, I have that the magi were from Imaskar, after their migrations, hypnos and demos were created in Chessenta, Galvan in Chondath and Caldron in Talfir. The reflecters seem interesting with the other mirror-cratures.
Hags I as well connect with the first corruption of the fey, Cegilune's story confirms that. As for imps, preferring mythological origins, they are closer to the fey than the extraplanars. Imp-summoning is a Netherese magical tradition in my world.
Kara-kara seem like polynesian orcs, have no interest in that.
Baldanders should be of the batrachi imo.
I like your idea about rakshasas being a fake creator race, and I planned a sort of bestial pre-Sundering Malar's empire from Veldorn to the Yikaria lands. Tough I don't consider most of the animal-looking races to be fey. And the dragonne are too draconic. Phanatons are cool, most of them are in Anchorome with small groups in the Wizard's Reach, Uthgardt lands and Wa.
I've turned the sollux to humans, a society in Estagund (Byzantine) that worships helions. Gyrein should be of the avian race, I imagine these two creator races had better relations than the rest. I don't like wyrds, they should be more like in the germanic mythology, related to fate. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:23:58
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Page 4!  Bumpitty-Bump-Bump!
I have this new notion (several, actually). Gray's responses in the Treant thread got me thinking about the fey again, and then about 'dwindling'.
Fey are spirits, that need to 'anchor' themselves to something physical in order to take physical form. These forms are governed by their power (level), and by what they have anchored themselves to (from a flower to a mountain range - the more power, the larger 'thing' needed to anchor them).
Going back through a lot of what you and I have hashed-out, The Fey were on Abeir-Toril (although weather native to Toril is debatable), and they were anchored to the earth-nodes, which served them well, but with the corruption (into Faezress) of many of Toril's nodes, they fled into the Feywild (which they may or may not have created).
Going back over some of my thoughts about 'Overminds' - a term I use to describe 'racial awareness'. That every race (and perhaps to a lesser-extent, every group within that race) has one of these, and it is from this 'Awareness' that deities spawn. Occasionally spontaneously, but usually a piece of 'Elan' detaches itself from the racial Overmind and creates a 'Saint' - a demi-power, which through reverence (worship) can raise higher in the cosmic echelon.
'Elan' is my catch-all term for that power - the energy which is transferred from mortal to deity by the faithful. Okay, this was my version of a 'last week's events' (like they do on TV shows).
FEY - enigmatic, powerful, secretive, mystical... the stuff of legends and folklore. Early humans must have been in awe of such beings. Perhaps, even, the other Creator Races were as well (and maybe a little fearful, and jealous?)
Now, we know theoretically (from both the rules and from FR lore regarding AO's decree post-ToT) that deities require worship. So, spirits are composed of energy, and this energy can be transferred (Elan), and it can be 'healed'. Meaning, that if a spirit (soul, whatever) relinquishes some of it's 'spirit energy' to something or someone else, it can slowly heal this loss. In this way, I feel that all spirits (including mortal souls and divine essences) are like a vast, cosmic 'lavalamp' - that there is just so much energy in the universe, and spirits attach themselves to bigger blobs of energy, or break-away and become independent blobs. This would explain how gods can absorb other powerful being (like deities and Fiends), and occasionally break-apart into seperate beings (like Tyche, or like what happened when the Pharonic gods sent manifestations to Toril).
My theories get MUCH deeper then this (having to do with celestial bodies, gravity wells, Electromagnetism, etc), but we have enough for what I want to explain - what if Fey 'dwindle' based upon worship? Since they are spirits, isn't it possible that part of their existence depends upon mortal belief? The Archfey became Archfey because of both the reverence their underlings (lower-tier fey) and other beings bestowed upon them. Like Gods, they discovered the secrets of immortality - that you could extend your life (and power) indefinitely by making those 'beneath you' pay you homage (the way primitive cultures feel they must 'appease the spirits').
Taking this one step further, and going with the notion that many eastern beliefs are based on the teachings of Kami/Fey spirits, we can see how ancestor-worship would play right into this (the 'new fey' had to pay homage to their elders). Eastern and native American cultures could have picked-up on this from the spirits themselves, who would have taught them this method of immortality. Basically, you empower that which you worship.
The darkest secret of the multiverse is that the whole thing is a giant pyramid-scheme! 
Anyhow, my point is this: fey dwindle because human (and other) belief in them is dwindling. Maybe not on Toril, but on many worlds (like our own earth). Even in fantasy settings the respect they once received (which transferred Elan) is no longer what it once was. Look at the Uthgardt and their Ancestor-Spirits and Beast-Totems. Canonically it says there used to be many more, but as the barbarian peoples die-out, and tribes disappear, so too do their 'gods'.
This new idea - that fairies once encouraged mortals to pay their respects to them - blends well with our other notions that the Feywild is also the 'place of dreams'. Borrowing from The Neverending Story, it is Fantasia, the place of fancies and day-dreams, of whimsy and imagination... and it all depends upon mortal belief to keep it going.
And so does everything else.
Awaiting any commentary - I have more, but this post is long enough. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:03:44
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| Cosmic Lava-lamps, Celestial Ponzi-scams?!? Markus you need to stop eating those fairy mushrooms. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 09 Mar 2011 00:36:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:04:34
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| Do fairy-pigs dig for Fey-Truffles? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 01:30:20
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More Homebrew Tinkering:
This is my current thinking: The True World - the first, original world, which encompassed the entirety of the material Plane - was shattered during the Godswar. The Elder being known as Ymir was destroyed, and his 'body' rent asunder.
The story told on Toril is a fragment; the simple fact is, the first world was MUCH more then just Toril and Abeir.
It was shattered like a piece of glass, and from the myriad shards the Spheres of the Void were formed, and new worlds coalesced from the primal Chaos within. Each is just an 'echo' of that first, true world.
So, that is nothing new. I have been saying something along those lines for awile now.What is new is my current train of thought - Who Killed Ymir, and why?
I had a set of myths in-place, regarding Cthon and his creations, Bahamut and Tiamet (Behemoth and Leviathan), but I'm not so sure about that part anymore. Sure, dragons HAD to be involved; after all, dragons are primordial and spread throughout the cosmos. The whole reason why i am posting this in this thread is because we know from canon that for whatever reason, the Fey chose to stop the dragons from conquering all the primes (or whatever it was the dragons were up to).
So we have the Fey - a Creator (first) Race, a group of enigmatic beings, more 'spirit' then physical. They lived in a world alongside the other Creators - a world of thunderbeasts and dire animals. A primitive, primal world... a world they sought to protect.
But why? And from what? WHO created the Dragons? And for what fell purpose?
According to legend, it was Asgoroth, the world-shaper. Interesting title, eh? A cosmic being of immense draconic power... a serpent... perhaps... THE serpent.
Asgoroth... Asmodeus... I think they are one and the same. We have tales from A Fieldguide to Hell, wherein Asmodeus battles his twin, Jazirian. In the 2e Draconimicon, Zotha takes the place of Jazirian.
Or does he? Does male and female really matter at that level of power? Maybe the power humans call 'Jazirian' is called 'Zotha' by the dragons; and both are just titles for something beyond understanding. Perhaps 'Zehir' is just one more name for the ancient, primal serpent (note his emergence in 4e FR, after Asmodeus' re-ascendence to Godhood).
Asgoroth, Asmodeus, Zehir, 'the devil', 'old snake'. All one and the same. A creature born soon after the universe itself, alongside its opposite - its 'light twin', which has as many names as he.
In the myths surrounding the War of Light and Darkness, we know that Selûne (the light) and Shar (the darkness) fought over the Sun. we also know that that first sun was destroyed - the draconic myths tell us as much. Destroyed by the darkness, by the serpent. we also have canonically two sun gods - two aspects of one being that cannot both exist together; evidence yet-again of two suns. the draconic myths tell us how Asgoroth destroyed the sun, and in so doing, destroyed himself.
quote:
". . . The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World."
So there we have it - the eldest of races with a myth that the first world was FLAT - like a plane. A sun was destroyed, and a god bled... similar to the myths about Corellon.
So is Corellon the old serpent in disquise? Possible... but unlikely. I think it is more like a 'family resemblance'. In that same work, this follows -quote:
"Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.
As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World they were, like the unliving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: "I too have Created."
So there we see, within the same mythos, a 'good' power creating 'protectors' with its blood. That sounds more like Corellon. Could Corellon be Bahamut?
Taking all this into account, I no longer think the Seldarine were children of The Immortal Fey - I think the Seldarine are the Fey. I think the Elven pantheon may pre-date the Fey one (or rather, be one and the same).
The LeShay are epic level Fey - what if they weren't the strong ones... what if they were the weak ones?
What if the LeShay - all nearly exarch-level in power - are like the 'farm team' for the Seldarine? What if the Seldarine were the first group of immortals (not Gods) to ascend to divinity?
I use the word 'immortal' to describe a being who is fundamentally immortal, but can still die, because death itself is now loosed upon existence. Once death was brought into the universe (with the death of the first world, Ymir), all other races became 'tainted' with mortality. But the Creator Races came before death, so they could only die by accident or murder.
So the five Creator-Races - the Batrachi, the Aeriee, the Shee, the Sarrukh, and the Proto-humans - came to be and lived in that first world. All other (mortal) races have since been derived from them, through various means (magical, divine, evolution, psionic, fiendish, etc). Another group - the aberrations - exist, and I feel that those races existed either before, or outside of, the universe we know.
So 'Abeir' isn't really one world... well... it IS... but the concept of what it represents - that part of Abeir-Toril that is 'missing' - is not entirely correct. All over the multiverse, Forgotten Realms of the first world still exist. Even Toril itself is just a mere shadow of the world that once was.
So what I need to figure out is, WHY did Asmodeus/Asgoroth create the dragons in the first place (well... obviously to rule the prime... but WHY?), and why have the Fey races decided to stand against him/them?
Did Asmodeus figure-out something about how the universe works that would enable him to eventually rule all - Heaven AND Earth? Is there some sort of 'primal energy' that is exchanged between mortals and those they worship? And what have the Fey got to do with it? Of all the creators, they alone try to stand against the dark one. Or do they? Are there others? Do they know the same secret that Asmodeus does, and they have their own agenda?
Hopefully this will inspire some deep discussion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 03:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
we also have canonically two sun gods - two aspects of one being that cannot both exist together; evidence yet-again of two suns.
Uh, since when can two aspects of one being not exist together? If you accept the idea that Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul were all the sun deity, then you cannot posit that two aspects can't exist together -- because we've had that, more than once.
So I don't see this as evidence of two suns. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2011 : 20:19:24
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Two sun gods, two suns.
I meant that 'all three can't exist at the same time'. I do try to keep my posts short, believe it or not.
Maybe not proof - that's not a good word - more like 'further evidence'.
I'm trying to re-work some stuff in my over-cosmology and I ran into a major temporal snafu.
I want the proto-giants (Planer Giants/True Titans) to be like early 'care-takers' of the world (the ORIGINAL world), and the dragons sent to war with them and take the world for their master. During the time when the Planer Giants were like 'sheperds' (actually creating parts of the prime Material), they had a small, servitor-race - the beings that would later be known as Dwarves. I always like the take of them from Time Bandits, and that's the capacity I see them having been created for.
As the Giants warred with the Dragons, the giants became more callous, and started mistreating their servants (they became more like slaves). Eventually the Færies discovered this, and helped many of them escape their bondage (this is when a lot of old, racial hatreds began).
Remember, in my version, the four elemental planes are within the material plane (along with The prime), so this is why we have different groups of dwarves (like Azer and water-dwarfs). Think of giants as the 'foreman' when 'the Gods' commanded the building of the material plane, and the dwarves as 'the workers'. Ergo, Elemental versions of both Giants and dwarves exist (including para and psuedo-elemental varieties), because they needed to be able to handle all that raw material as the world was being built.
Fine, all that works. Later, as parts of the world (which at that time was a VAST plane) were being completed, the world was seeded with the Creator Races (called 'the First Ones'). This 'seeding' began before the draco-giant wars erupted. None of the groups around at that time were precisely what they became later-on, and what some of them are today (the dwarves were dvergr, the elves were Fey, etc); when the world was splintered, so too were its peoples, and many, MANY sub-groups evolved. So the stage is set for D&D's multiverse...
Just one problem - the dwarfs emerged upon Ymir's death. Thats fine, because the material plane was built from the body of Ymir. So the dwarfs can be construed as the 'blood of Ymir' (just to keep it consistent with the other D&D folklore). The giants were the 'sons of Ymir', and therefor can also be considered the 'blood of Ymir'.
But this all means that between the Death of Ymir and the War of light & Darkenss, eons probably passed. I had started to think of the death of Ymir as part of the sundering, but that doesn't work at all.
Ymir died (bringing the first death into the world), and later the world was shattered. The problem with that is that we know from canon sources death came into the world (FR, at least) when the WoL&D occurred.
So what I'm thinking now is a 'war of escalation'. One wherein at least one 'Dark Power' killed Ymir (Cthon is still a likely suspect), and then there was an uneasy truce (barely) when those unimaginably powerful 'Elder Gods' realized that there could be an end to their existence (a concept unknown to them before). So they worked together (separately, really) to use the death of Ymir to bring-about a new and better world - a world for the new 'mortals' to dwell.
Some time passes, and then either the same malevolent being, or another evil entity, or some conspiracy involving several (likely) sets in motion the events we see in the Book of the World (Draconic Myth), and Zotha is 'cast down' into the One World. I think THAT is the thing that precipitated the final events of the War of Light & Darkeness (which begn with Ymir's death).
Any thoughts? Zotha seems to take the place of Satan in the draconic myths (or The Devil in Gloranthan ones). I have a feeling where Zotha 'landed', but thats another story. Anyhow, the problem with the draconic mythos is that it is evil-centric. It casts Zotha in a bad light, and Bahamut as well (and Tiamet as a great creator).
So who was Zotha? Obviously a draconic (pre-human) power... could he have been Aumanator, the first sun? I like Aumanator for several reasons, but mostly because he represents the 'midday sun', and in a flat plane (as the first world was) the sun would always appear to be at it's zenith.
But this is when certain things start to fall apart... if I think Asgoroth was Asmodeus, and Zotha was Aumanator, why would Asmodeus want to 'cast down' Aumanator? In Faerûnian mythology, it was Shar who 'railed against the sun'. Could Shar have just been a minor (local) player? Was Asmodeus threatened by the coming of the Creators? And when he couldn't stop their coming, did he instead try to corrupt them?
Any suggestions? 
BTW, I'm thinking (tentatively) of calling my proto-humans 'Adaamz' (pronounced Â-doms) - what do you think? Too derivative? Alphatians has already been used... I need something that sounds... primal. I might make whatever is left of that fore-runner race similar to the Kromaggs of Sliders. Menkyte? Nahhhhh....
*I'm currently reading a lot of Runequest mythos, and I like what they have done with the proto-world - I may borrow a bit from there. For anyone interested, there is a Great Site with the history of Glorantha and its cosmology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2011 20:20:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2011 : 21:34:56
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Me thinks I have to shorten my individual posts quite a bit if I expect people to read them and respond. 
In my own setting (which is inspired by the Realms, but ISN'T the Realms), I have it where shape-shifting originated with two races, and all other forms stem from that. The one is the Fæy (my version) - all of them have the ability to assume the shape of one animal form (which has much more to do with personality then genetics). More forms can be added with feats, of course. This is a magical ability and comes completely natural to them (at puberty), and they can also learn to assume a hybrid form.
The second group is a primordial amphibious race (Ilythood?) that takes many forms themselves, but are not 'true' shapeshifters; they do so by experimentation and cross-breeding. That is my nod to aberrations (which are nearly all related in my setting), with a little of the movie Alien thrown in. Also, their generational shape-shifting (geneshifting?) is loosely based on the (Bene) Tleilaxu of Dune. Their blood is called 'morphic blood' because of its strange adaptive qualities; only creatures with some of this blood (either being descended of a crossbreed or by artificial injection) can procreate with other species (different races can NOT interbreed naturally on MY world!)
Anyhow, I am now toying with the idea that the mixture of Morphic blood and Fæy blood is the cause of lycanthropy in my setting (which is why I posted all of this here).
I was re-reading Tall Tales of the Wee Folk last night, and that's where I got my latest inspiration - centaurs deriving from Chevall (which I don't think are in that product, but are part of that continuity). Chevall are sort of centaur-lycanthropes, so they are perfect for what I have in mind (and some here may want to use this in their own Realms or other D&D settings).
So my Fæy (elves) can change shape - some into horses. Those rare individuals form into a type of 'elven cavalry' once they learn their hybrid forms. Ergo, in my setting, 'normal' centaurs are actually chevall, and the top-half looks elven, not human. The other shifting race experimented on some of those and humans, and created a nasty hybrid (which is still not quite human on top). The hybrids are fairly primitive (kinda like orcs), and very hairy (think caveman/centaur).
So I have both types from classical literature - the intelligent, Sagely variety (the Shevalai), and the brutish Sentors (all names are currently place-holders). The human crossbreeds cannot change shape, and the Elven hybrid-form have cloven hoofs instead (the bodies are more gazelle-like).
Even though I don't plan on using most of the regular D&D races (I have my own), I still figure-out where all the D&D races fit into my scheme of things (in case I decide to create a game system around my world, I want it compatible with OGL). Elves and dwarves are true races, but things like Halflings and Gnomes are offshoots of mixed heritage. In fact, those two races are the result of crossbreeds of Duende (small humanoids) and Humans & Dwarves (respectively).
And right now 'Duende' is a place-holder; I wanted to use 'Ling' but that is too Oriental-sounding (that is what those creatures will be called in my eastern lands). Those are basically the short, furry-legged humanoids that brownies, leprecauns, kobolds, etc, all derive from. Fauns also derive from them, but they are a mixture of Fæy (that have a goat form) and Duende. Ergo, I have both Satyrs (the hybrid form of the elf), and Fauns (which cannot change shape - the magical ability does not 'breed true').
Commentary? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 10:16:37
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I'm stuck right now - currently I am starting to lean back toward multiple races of 'fey' rather then one race of Fey (The Shee) coupled with races of aboriginal Feywild creatures.
I'm kind torn on this one. My original (form years ago) concept was that fey were beings of energy that linked themselves to physical things in order to take physical form, and the more powerful the fey, the larger and more powerful shape they would take.
Ergo, the larval-state of fey would be Will-0-Wisps, and they would then become pixies, then brownies, then larger forms like satyrs, centaurs, and Sidhe.
That was my old idea, which I have moved far away from since becoming a big FR fan and working at all this pre-history. In FR, the fey were A Creator Race, which means, by definition, that they created the many fey-forms we are familiar with (or, at least, discovered and released them upon the world). Since I don't like the idea of them creating all the fey, in the same manner other Creators bred races, I went with the 'discovered them in the feywild' approach (which 4e lore helped along).
But I hate to lose all my old lore in the process; I am in love with the idea that fey transcend into multiple forms, and I lost touch with this. Reading The Golden Compass about a week ago made me reconsider - the dæmons (spirits) of people were able to change shapes until they matured, and I would kinda like to work that in. Also, thanks to another thread, I have been re-reading the 2e Complete Book of Dwarves (a wonderful source), and I had completely forgotten that duergar can change size (just like the spriggans!)
Which means now I feel I must completely ignore that vingette in the LEoF (because it makes little sense in light of everything else - lore shouldn't exist in a vacuum). If fey can change shape, and dwarves and gnomes have some sort of throw-back ability (to 'earlier times') about size-changing, then I feel it all must be related somehow (and NOT to the Netherease - I'm tired of connecting EVERYTHING to the damn Shades).
I am also currently trying to figure out how the fey weakness to iron fits into all this. If the Dwarves were the 'blood of Ymir', and the veins of oar in the world were Ymir's veins, why would the fey (whom I've connected to elemental earth) be weak against it? perhaps the original (spirit) fey were given that form so that they could move easily through solid earth? Fey are said to dwell 'beneath the ground' in many places. So, perhaps when they get too close to very pure vein of metal (especially iron), they are 'grounded' by it, in the same manner that you can ground an electro-magnetic field (which is what I think spirit-energy is anyway).
Another old 'myth' that may be connected - you can trap a witch by nailing iron spikes into her footprints (on the ground where she last tread). There has to be something to that - that base metals are able to inhibit the flow of magic (and magical creatures). Even D&D uses something akin to this - Mages can't where metal armor.
But then, why did D&D Elves call themselves, 'Gold, Silver, Copper, and Mithral'? Gold is far more conductive then iron. At some point, the elves must have lost this weakness when they lost many of their other 'fey traits'.
Just more of my random thoughts - I don't even know if anyone is still listening.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 23:10:12 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 21:12:21
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I had a few theories about the fey iron in my world. Decided it wasn't just regular iron, but sky-metal, an alien isotope not native to the Prime which disrupts magic and the Weave. Being anti-magical it's ''radioactive'' to the fey, their antipathy for the regular iron comes from their racial memory, it's in their instincts to avoid it.
When the fey plane was planted and spread its branches to other worlds, the multiverse reacted in an opposite balancing effect. The anti-fey plane of Acheron/Blood Rift/''Metal''/Hawoek (homebrew) grew from the lower planes and broke into all worlds the Tree reached. Orcs are anti-fey born on the metallic cubes of Acheron, goblins were sent there to fight them, quickly driven mad by the metal (called otataral, inspired by Malazan, or in a way like kryptonite). High Magic (or blood magic) is sacrificial, e.g. the Sundering had a price, for every earth node there's a faerzress.
The fey needed help from the Imaskari, who experimented on the metal.
There's a lot of it in Sigil, for you know who. I agree about the magnetic fields, it has a grounding effect.
I think the elves are fey adaptation to the Prime (and metals), but there's no iron elves, that's what the Creator Race was doing, starting with the gold ones (and the dwarves, tough they were cast out). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 00:21:28
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LOL - can't use a lot of that - you're planer take seems WAY different then mine.
I like your ideas about the World Tree, though. The thread about treants got me thinking about the World Tree and Emmantiensien, and how its related (also the recent thread about goblins).
I was thinking the Sidhe (Shee) discovered the Feywild (known only as the Realm of Sleep, Dreamscape, Fantasia, etc... back then) and linked their own energies to it, after 'disconnecting' themselves from Toril (they were linked through the earthnodes - I think on that much we agree). However, in my newest cosmology model, I have it where the dreamtime was just part of the Astral all along. I figure mortal's minds enter the Astral in their dreams, and create the 'night terrors' (goblins, trolls, and what-not). Somehow, when the Fey created faerie (within the Feywild/Dreamtime), the released the 'terrors' (goblinoids) onto the world.
Still not sure how I am going to link the smaller fey to the noble Fey, though. I'm still toying with the 'diminishing' angle. Perhaps when true fey travel to the Prime Material, the corruption (Death, and those other 'evils' that were loosed upon the world during the WoL&D) tears at them. Fey have a choice when they begin getting saturated with 'worldly corruption' - slough-off some of their own form (the infected parts), which makes them shrink, or allow the corruption to grow, and become 'unseelie' (which I think means something akin to 'out of balance').
In other words, the Prime acts like a cancer to the fey, but kinda in reverse (as bits of them are 'taken', they grow weaker, and therefor smaller). So creatures native to the feywild do not spend much time in the Prime, or live close-enough to a feygate (still looking for those!) to allow the astral energies to 'purify' them once-in-awhile. Its all very convoluted, but it ties into my thinking on all creatures having 'Planer' and 'Primal' counterparts.
I don't think the Shadowfel was created by the fey, as I once did (something to do with 'balance' and their migration to the planes). My new thinking is that the initial stages of the Godwar were the lawfuls against Chaos, and Asgoroth (Asmodeus) cast-down Tharizdun into the One world (Midgard). I have some ideas in-mind about that now - that the Black diamond was actually the heart of the Elder Eye, which Asgoroth tore from the chest of his foe, before casting his form down to the Material world (where he broke-through it, and past into, and formed, the lower planes).
So the Batezu already dwelt beneath the world, in the Undercaverns, before hell was even formed. The Tanar (Elementals) didn't become corrupted ('ri) until later, when the Material Plane was corrupted by Tharizdun's fall (Every Prime World has an 'echo' of the spot where he fell - on Toril it's the Inner Sea).
Then the Old serpent - Asmodeus/Asgoroth - creates the dragons and makes a bid for the world, weakening it even further (he actually did this in a lawful tyrant-like fashion, his thinking being that the world was better-off ruled by him, then left to chaos). The other gods went to stop him, the war escalated (with no clear sides anymore), and Ao/Io/Brahman/Yahweh/etc steps-in to save the 'lesser races' and the world (from itself). The multi-verse is created (which is actual the third universe), and Asmodeus is bound in the lower hells, which he helped to create.
Okay, I lost track of where I was going - that's kind-of a 're-cap'.
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Back when Tharizdun (Cthon - his names are legion) sent his children to destroy Ymir (the embodiment of physicality), and Ymir died (bringing the concepts of mortality to heavens), his sister-goddess Gaea (the embodiment of energy) went to him...
...Ghaeli wrapped herself around his pale form, and held him in her heavenly embrace. He shuddered but once and was still, and then the heavens wept, for death had come to the world. Still she would not let go, and instead poured her own energies into his lifeless husk. The poisoned flesh began to slough-off, and from the wounds crept loathsome creatures - these she blew upon, and the blood of Ymir took form, and became the dwarves. The other gods beseeched her to release their fallen brother, but still she was unmoving, giving so much of herself that, in time, the two became one. From this primal pairing sprouted a great tree - Yggdrasil - and the roots of the tree traveled down, deep into the lower realms, cracking and breaking the corrupted body wherever they reached, and into thess cracks Nepthshelas (the Deep One) poured the Waters of life, where they flow still...
...But the verdant waters could not bring back Ymir. Instead, the power of the flow from both the goddess and the Lord of Depths brought into creation a new being - the soul of the great tree itself, and it's name was Emmantiensien, whom the Alfar name Rillifane, which means 'that which grows from the body'. The child of grief stood protectively over the two prone forms, entwined as they were, and continues to guard over heaven and earth, and in its branches the new worlds were hung, formed of the broken body of Ymir.
...and Gaea yet wraps herself about him, her tears falling as rain upon the mortal realms...
-from Secrets of the Divine, by Markovius the Mad, Mage of lost Tsharoon
{end interlude} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2011 05:13:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 00:35:56
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Iron has symbolic associations. It's weaker than steel yet still we say things like "iron fist" and "iron sky" when we want to convey a metaphor of unbreakable enduring strength. Iron can of course be ferromagnetic whereas gold cannot, though I personally think the all-too-common treatment of routinely mixing theories of electromagnetism with magic produces little more than bad science and weak fantasy. Gold, silver, and copper also have symbolic associations; they are not only "noble metals" but also said to carry all sorts of powerful magical attributes. In fact, each of our (chemical) elements has unique and specific properties which allows it (and no other material) to be useful for some particular application in science, why not also in magic?
Iron is toxic to fey, perhaps due to magical antipathy or some peculiar quirk of magnetism or whatnot ... but various other metals have pronounced effects on werebeasts, vampires, and every possible flavour of fiend or outsider. The phenomenon is not limited to fey. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Mar 2011 00:42:10 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 11:57:23
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Right, there's so much you can do with the alchemical or periodic elements beside the four classic ones. I find pseudo-scientific origins for my world more interesting than the creation myths involving gods. I prefer the Prime way older than the planes of belief, e.g. one of the first beings were the helions, aliens a bit like Niven's Outsiders, and a being that became Asmodeus was once one of them. Then the kamerel were lithium-based silvery lifeforms, highly active, and the first rilmani were then with beryllium traits, tough both changed and (de)evolved.
Markovius, I like the story, except the dragon parts, it is traditionally coiled around the tree. Are you trying to unify the mythologies, is Ymir like Ouranos then? In my world the spirit of the World Tree is also shattered, into Tree Ghosts (like the Uthgardt totem), they also have the sun portfolio.
Why the need to explain and categorize fey races, keep that as mystery. Personally I see the fey changeling ability a remnant from the time batrachi were the Creator Races, when the fey tried to get close to them, like they do with humans now. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 17:56:29
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ALL the original 'Elder Gods' were 'Drækons' (in their own tongue, which is actually telepathy, so that means something akin to 'immensely powerful ancient entity'). This word has trickled-down to mortals, and surprisingly enough has remained mostly 'intact' amongst multiple races on innumerable worlds.
The Tanar (elemental beings) referred to them as 'wyrrms', which meant (in the same celestial language) 'masters'.
A lot of what I am doing (including the wordplay) I want to be open-ended enough so that nearly any other creation myth will be able to be inserted into mine (in other worlds, there should be enough common elements).
The 'divine feminine' - that aspect I believe you call 'The demiurge' - was the third being to have come into existence, and represents creativity (in both an artistic and a procreative fashion). All of these Proto-Gods have Avatars (Aspects) in mortal pantheons, although not every elder god is represented by a deity in every pantheon. Both the Divine Feminine (who was probably Audhumla in Norse myths) and The One (who I now refer to as Io - he works VERY well in this capacity) are rarely represented themselves in mortal pantheons, although more 'modern' religions - monotheistic ones - do focus around a 'supreme being'. The Adama, Native-American beliefs, Padhran, Celestial Bureaucracy, and even Hinduism all come close to the truth (that everything in the universe is part of an even 'greater hole'). many of these Elder Entities are also represented by more then one aspect - Ghaeli is actually both Gaea and Khali, two 'offspring' (aspects) that have broken-off from the main one. She represents the natural energies of the universe, and is often perceived as 'the earthmother'. Those forces include both the nurturing and destructive aspects of nature (for what is destruction, but a means to wipe the slate clean and start anew? - I believe in 4e they call this 'designing' ).
I like a lot of the draconic mythos, so I am trying to spin a lot of it out of that. What you read above is a 'work-in-progress' - it will be an excerpt from a treatise on Torillian religion by a Candlekeep Scholar (and have quoted passages from many extremely ancient works). I never realized before how much Io has in common with Brahman; the way I want to work is that at the beginning there may have been just one sentience, or, conversely, 3 or 4 consciousnesses that together made 'The One'. My 'Ultimate being' was going to represent true law, but after re-reading the draconic stuff I have decided that he eventually purged himself of even law and became true neutral (thus Io is an evolved form) - each 'purging' created other beings, until he perfected himself (balance) and became Neutral in all things (and he represents the uncaring universe as a whole).
He/It created the first (great) Ordials (True Titans)- The name represents their purpose: To 'Bring Order' to the universe (which was mostly pockets of emptiness with great globs of 'maelstrom' floating in it). More (the Prime-Ordials) were created by the other Elder Gods* - who in-turn created the Jotuns (true giants - the first 'race' as we know it), who in their turn built the world. As the world was crafted, 'camps' were formed around the elements, and GOD (Io/whatever) commanded them to each create a race of beings to live upon the world. In time, one would be chosen to rule over the others, and bring order to the universe. This occurred after the death of Ymir, but before The War of Light & Darkness. The first 'Godwar' was about Law vs Chaos; the second was about Good vs Evil (and the whole things is actually one, drawn-out conflict that took several millenia).
The Five races were the Saural, the Aeree, the Trachi, the Shee, and the Ûmaan, who respectively represented Fire, Air, Water, Earth, and Alloy (a combination of all the elements). Only one would be 'the race of destiny'. I like some of your take of the fey - I may borrow that bit about them trying to influence Fate and become 'the Destined Ones'. These were the only intelligent races created (at first) to dwell upon the One World (Midgard), and they knew no illness or death, because these concepts did not existed when they were formed. Early-on, all of these 'First people' (Eternals?) learned that the race chosen to rule would have to be able to adapt to any and all circumstances, and each took that and ran in different directions with it; some modifying themselves, while others created their own intelligent sub-races.
The Shee (Fey) were the most successful early-on, because they transcended their physical forms and became beings of energy (spirit), to be more like 'the gods' that made them. The Trachi learned how to shift their physical forms, the Sauran practiced 'grafting', and evolved into several species (saurials and sarrukh). The Aeree were wise, and decided to let nature take its course, and so were the slowest to change -the allowed the elements (climate) and time work their magic on them, thinking this to be the 'true course'. The Ûmaans took the most drastic approach - they (secretly) experimented with the blood of the other Creators and combined their own inner being (DNA) with that of the others, taking the concept of themselves being 'Alloy' to its ultimate conclusion. By using science and magic together, they were able to breed with other races (both the Creators and their own creations) and even lesser creatures (animals and beasts).
After the fall of Zotha, Asgoroth began his plan, seeding the One World with his own blood to create his own super-powerful race of mortal creatures. To prevent this 'take-over', Io shattered the Dying Earth so the 'eggs' of Asgoroth would not find purchase (at least not right-away), and 'modern' (D&D) prehistory begins.
I'm still having a bit of a problem with death, whch should have occurred when Ymir was slain; Ymir must have still been alive when the eternals (Creator races) were made. I will have to modify the myth I wrote above accordingly - Ghaeli must have been able to keep Ymir alive for some time by combining her own energies with his.
You guys didn't like the part about how the world tree came into being, at the same time as the muliverse, and also how it was Deep Sashelas/Poseidon who poured the waters into the earth (forming the rivers in hell)? I thought that was rather clever, if I do say so myself - I managed to use nearly all the pantheons and creation stories for that. Also, Emmantiensien became the final 'Great Ordial', which is why Alloy is sometimes called 'wood' in alchemical texts (the 5th element).
Lots of wordplay here - the suffic 'ri' means 'corrupted', but the prefix 'Ba' means 'dark', or 'evil' (so we have the Tanar elementals, the Tezu of the Underworld, and the Trachi amphibians). I may just make 'Tezu' be the umbrella-term for celestial-type beings.
Also, Annam - a lesser (Prime) Ordial, which are also called 'High Gods' - created the Assura (Aesir), and Ptah (the offspring of Ghaeli and Ymir) took the newly formed dwarves under his own care (thus becoming Moradin, 'the Forger'.
So each RW/D&D pantheon gets a nod, and all of the 'known pantheons' become offshoots of various Elder gods and Ordials (and ascended Eternals - the first of which were the Vanir/Valor/Seldarine).
I will probably have to stick with the magnetism thing for the iron and the Fey, though, becusee I connected some of the Maraloi lore to the Mountain of iron in the Northern Wastes. If a spirit (and the Maraloi are spirit-folk and an offshoot of the fey) is composed of energy, and therefor generates an electricall field, then it would make some sense that the 'persona' of the spirit - the sum total of all its memories and input form its senses - can be damaged or even erased, in much the same way that a magnet can erase a hard drive or old-style cassette tapes. This ties in with my ideas of 'diminishing' - the magnetic fields actually discharge some of the energy of spiritual beings.
My concept for the proto-humans is that they mixed science and magic, which was destructive to both the world and the other Creators. Their legacy can be seen in such cultures as Blackmoor (which has a canonical placement in no less then three separate settings) and Raumathar (and the Raumvari got their knowledge from the Imaskari, who gleaned from even more ancient cultures that arose before them). This is why on many, MANY worlds technology is forbidden - it has proved far too destructive in the past.
Anyway, enough for now: Like I said, this is an on-going work-in-progress.
Edit: I have really only touched-upon the human and fey/Elven pantheons, because I feel the other creators had their own pantheons of ascended deities (and also a few may have been true Elder Gods), and that Gray Richardson has done a bang-up job with them. Eventually I will go-over everything he has done and place them within my framework (I have ideas for a couple and how they fit) - their shouldn't be too many discrepancies, and of course everyone will be credited with their contributions (IF I ever finish this thing, which is doubtful, with my ADD, OCD, and perfectionist tendencies).
Edit2: The first world was simply called 'Orth', which represented the firmament it was built upon. Although comprised of all the elements, the most useful (in terms of building) was the element of 'earth', hence the name. Although the shear multitude of mortal worlds that were created later have numerous names, we still see a lot of them with the recurring 'echo' of the first world in them - Urth, Oerth, Earth, Aerth, etc...
Another name for Ghaeli (Gaea/Khali) - a more mystical interpretation - is Mystyr ('mysteries'), hence other names referring to the 'life-giving properties' of the world (Mystara, Mystryl, Mystra).
*This part needs some clarification: There was a universe before 'the gods' - it was in that 'cosmic soup'(Ginnungagap) that consciousness first formed. HOWEVER, there WERE races living there already - the Shadvari - a collective name for several different groups which included the Illithids, Aboleths, Grell, Slaad, and maybe Beholders (along with whatever others anyone cares to think of). These creatures all hate what they perceive as 'intruders', and help Cthon try to revert the universe back to its primal, chaotic state. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2011 18:28:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2011 : 18:38:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Why the need to explain and categorize fey races, keep that as mystery. Personally I see the fey changeling ability a remnant from the time batrachi were the Creator Races, when the fey tried to get close to them, like they do with humans now.
I will be using parts of yours as well - I really like (and embrace) your concept of the fey trying to become the 'Race of destiny' by combining themselves with the others.
I think, maybe, the first race they wanted to copy were the dynamic Ûmaan, who were themselves experimenting with crossbreeding. However, whereas the Ûmaan took a more scientific approach, the Shee took a more spiritual one, and only 'absorbed' the qualities (abilities) they liked, rather then actual physical parts (because they were beings of energy, naturally).
So they got their knack for cross-breeding from the Ûmaan, their shapeshifting abilities from the Trachi, the ability to fly* from the Aeree (along with the Aeree penchant for long-sightedness, which derives from the air currents themselves), and the... hmmmm.. not sure what they got from the sauroids. Bad breath?
Maybe dimensional shifting, but I always attributed gate-tech to the Batrachi...
*Fey can grow wings at-will, but the physics of flying requires them to take a much smaller form. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 10:36:04
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That's indeed way different, dragons are my least favourite part of the game, partially blame the overexposure. Taking their origins from Mystara's draedens they're enemies of the creator races and their immortals. The lost sauroid creator race evolved into two, the avians and dragons (lost their creator-race powers). The Phoenix (avian name for the Demiurge) purged with fire the farstuff from one of the dreadens, creating Asgorath, who eventually grew ninefold and supplanted the World Serpent.
The proto-humans, I also have some similarities. During the ice age (with black-ice and ashes of dead gods covering most of the planet) two cultures survived, in Azlant and Lomarnu (homebrew Lemuria analogy, inhabited by humans who served the reptile powers). Technological invention/artificer school had been the most influential in the Azlanti society. However a mentalist faction's called the Wylders communing with fey powers brought an end to the ice age. Until then the Azlanti were immortal, with a cost of being unable to procreate. An argument arose from the mentalists that the evolution has stopped and that humans will be unable to stop the illithids in the far future. The end of the black ice caused a few surviving members of the lost creator races to awaken from hibernation. The serpents had a secret influence in Wylder's discovery of variator lifeshaping magics. Eventually a lot of Azlanti went through these rituals and abandoned immortality. Centuries later as the differences increased they were banned from the continent under threat of mindfire (an Eden analogy). They found new realms in Faerun, e.g. mentalists in Chessenta, or fell to druidism (Talfiric) or savagery. Odin found the Colossal Kingdom in the polar regions after discovering the body of his titanic ancestor (Ymir) and used his blood for fey-magic rituals that started the waves of Sunderings. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 18:28:22
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Now isn't that funny - I had Lemuria and Atlantis in-mind for my Pozi (proto-Northmen) and Kalmyk (proto-Raumvari) cultures. 'Great minds' and all of that.
Whereas the Pozi were a Blackmoor-like civilization, combining magic & technology into all sorts of unnatural devices and creatures, the kalmyk were 'closer to the land', due to their early inter-action with the (Maraloi) Fey, and it was from that group that some human druidic traditions arose (along with the Talfir, who were very primitive but one of the few human groups around back then).
I also dislike dragons - they are actually NOT in my own setting (only myths, which survive in much smaller creatures like Drakes and Wyverns). Part of the reason I am establishing a proto-cosmology is so that my own world's myths blend nicely with D&D's (without using their names and exact set-up). I have high hopes of publishing my setting someday, so while derivations are all well-and-good, I have to tip-toe around some of the more iconic D&D stuff (like illithids, beholders, the Great Wheel, etc).
For instance, only a single part of the One World still exists - a flat disc called The Somber Plains, which equates to D&D's Concordant/Outlands. It's also sometimes referred to as the 'Grælands', both as a nod to Gray Richardson {who's dedication to the setting I try to emulate), and also is a reference to the plane's neutrality. The rest of the material from decaying Ymir went into the Prime Worlds, which float in the Ethereal Sea (which doubles as my phlogiston). Only folk with 'the sight' can see into the Ethereal, so that anyone else viewing (or even traveling through) Space would just see the normal emptiness that we do in the RW.
There are also chunks of 'dark matter' which float about in the universe - remnants of the corrupted parts of Ymir that caused his death. Not sure where I want to go with those yet, but I assume its through those bits that Cthon can still interact with the 'normal' universe (and they are prized by aberrations).
It goes like this - the Elder Gods created the universe, and they created the Ordials (D&D's Primordials), who in-turn first created servitor-races (like giants and dwarves) to help fashion the world, and then created the 'mortal' races (the first of which were immortal.. I know... a bit of an oxymoron there...). It was from that initial group of Eternals that the first deities sprang - in those early days the forces of the universe (magic) were still chaotic and super-powerful, and the Eternals that were able to harness them achieved divinity. That way, I can 'have my cake and eat it too' - real gods exist, but mortals do NOT interact with them. There are many deities (false gods) which survive in the universe, but they are much more like super-archmages then true gods.
And they are all trying to best each other. Its kinda like rolling the Chronicles of Amber (and World of Tiers) together with the Moorcockian universe and a bit of The Highlander. Also just a smidge from MERPs (in that system, there were 'high Men', which were actually the Dúnedain of the novels - from whom Aragorn hailed). So some PCs may have some of that 'ancient blood' and be able to live longer (and do all those crazy Feats that real people can't actually do). Also a bit of of the ST episode Who Mourns for Adonais?, which features a godlike being who is much more 'human' then his powers suggest.
I guess what I am trying to do is re-invent D&D, but from a lore perspective, rather then a rules-perspective (as was done in 4e). I would rather create new (non-OGL) rules for my world, then force the world to conform to some generic RPG system.
Anyhow, even though we are going in different directions with a lot of stuff, we also seem to have the same basics in-mind, like keeping 'ancient creators' around in the background (I think they make wonderful 'Illuminati types').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2011 23:33:42 |
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Fey realms
