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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2011 : 18:40:56
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I still have to figure-out how Vampirism (and Lycanthropy) fits into all of this - I want it to be very unconventional (and yet still recognizable for what it is). My Maeladrin are a combination of haughty Gold/dark elves and Shades, kinda like the Melnibonea's (Elric novels). They are actually corrupted fey (in my world), so I'm thinking tying the Vamps to them - perhaps whatever they did to themselves they tried on humans, which did not turn out quite right.
That might be the way to go - I have the Olvaci (my sylvan fey/elves) being able to take animal forms, so perhaps they countered their evil brethren's schemes by combining their own shape-shifting with humans, creating lycanthropy. So the Lycan/Vamp hatred stems from the ancient animosity between the two branches of fey. Yeah... that might work...
Oh, and humans can't become wolves (normally); humans become Werebears (I know, a bit 'Tolkienesque', but I like it). Only Elves can take wolf-form (I actually have a way around that figured out - the Loup-garou).
like I said, all of the above applies to my own setting, which is reminiscent of the realms, but NOT the Realms.
I want to talk about mainstream D&D/FR again, but I'm trying to keep my posts shorter - more later.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2011 : 21:10:21
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Vampirism, I pictured it as remnant of neolithic magic rituals. They sacrificed the blood-mother of the tribe to the spirit of the land (fey). Those spirits who failed to return the favor were cursed.
Traditionally, dragons are involved, like Dracula and his Order of the Dragon. Maybe the dragon failed to protect the tribe after eating the virgins.
Lycanthropes, don't know. Possibly the origin of the curse is in the totems, each tribe had one sacred animal, it was taboo to harm it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 02:00:39
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In my over-cosmology, which applies to D&D in-general, I have tied Vampirism to dragons and Lilith (though I'm not precisely sure of the details).
In my own setting, however, the primordial war between the Giants and Dragons practically annihilated both races, so they are 'mere legends' on my world (and as I said earlier, 'live on' in much lesser forms). There may still be a few around, though, well hidden...
My Vamps were an experiment by the Maeladrin, which mostly failed, and created two variants; the aristocratic Umbralords and the beastal Deargdoom. Normal humans couldn't handle the Shadow-ritual (that created the Maeladrin), and it was discovered that blood would allow them to survive (and the Umbralords don't have fangs).
Anyhow, enough about my setting (I plan to publish it someday), and onto some Fey-talk, which is what this thread is supposed to be about...
I've been re-reading Irish myths and folklore, and I may just go back to the drawing board with them. This is how I'm leaning ATM - Fey are spirits, which means they are NOT of the mortal world (technically, they could be considered 'dead'). They use their internal energies to manifest a physical form, which can be whatever they choose (there is a certain number of accepted forms most will take, but nothing stops them from creating completely new ones).
This 'internal energy' (Élan Vital) is the same exact thing as the Fey Power Source. It is derived from Positive/Radiant energy from the upper planes (Faerie sits between the world and the Heavens - it is the 'spirit realm'), so Faerie acts like a 'filter' (VERY similar to how the Weave works in Ed's original). Clerics call this 'divine energy', and they can manipulate it, which is why the fey fear priests (a priest can do to fey what they do to undead, but the mechanic is slightly different).
I'm going all the way back to my Overmind concept - the Fey may have been normal, physical beings at some point, but they figured-out some of the 'Mysteries of the Universe', and realized that a deity and it's worshipers are inter-related. Thus, they 'sacrificed' themselves and became spirits, but instead of going to some god's domain, they used their belief in themselves (and their Queen) and created a hive-mind type of deity of and for themselves (they are their own god).
Ergo, since fey are primarily astral beings, they can communicate using telepathy (and have other 'mind powers'). For all intents and purposes they are dead, and Faerie is their 'afterlife'. But just like a ghost (or other spirits), they can maintain solid forms for short periods of time (in the material World). In their own realm, its just like a deity being within its godly domain, and they have access to all the energy of all the other fey (so they can maintain solid forms and manifest abilities indefinitely).
So that should cover everything - they 'diminish' because they cannot as readily replenish their 'fey power' outside of Faerie. It takes care of size-changing, shape-shifting (Phouka), wings and other natural abilities, and also why the Fey seem to be associated with 'the dead' in much old folklore. Even the vampiric fey (there are several) are taken care of - those are fey that have learned how to tap into the 'life force' (Élan vital) of others, just like the Vampiric Touch spell).
So fey are pretty much batteries, that need to 'plug into' the Feywild in order to recharge. As they lose power, they have to take smaller physical forms, and can't manifest any of their more potent powers (else they completely drain themselves).
I have more, but this one's long enough, and I am sick as a dog right now. 
Oh, and I changed my mind yet-again about the trollish/dwarfish 'short fey'. I haven't worked out the details, but the new name for them is Bhrogan (its Irish Gaelic for 'maker', and its where our word 'leprecaun' comes from - "leith bhrogan". And they aren't really related to the other fey - they existed in the Feywild all along. Anyhow, I wasn't really feeling 'Duende' for that proto-group; sounds to nicey-nice. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2011 02:10:58 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2011 : 04:56:37
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| Scribe Markus, are you aware of any other Fey breeds of Dragon, besides the Faerie Dragon? Surely there is an Unseelie counterpart. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 00:38:15
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A Shadofey Dragon? 
If there wasn't, there is now... 
Going with my assumption that fey are just spirits (and I have been building on this the past few days at home) and can take any form in the Feywild*, then the faerie dragon are simply Fey that have taken a draconic form. I think, like in the His dark materials series (with he dćmons), that the personality of the spirit determines its 'normal' form. This form acts much like a 'favored weapon' in 2eD&D, in that it requires far less energy expenditure to take a familiar shape. This helps explain why so many spirit-creatures almost always assume the same form, despite the fact they can obviously manifest as nearly anything.
Ergo, I think Fey they tend toward the faerie-dragon form think like dragons. The seelie variety would embrace inquisitiveness (the esteemed draconic learning), and like 'shiney things'. The Unseelie variety would be darker, and greedy. They would not be above stealing from and misleading folk. While both types enjoy 'playing tricks' on others, the Unseelie dragon's tricks often take a very sinister turn.
I have really started to deconstruct the D&D planer cosmology for its core elements, and have decided that all creatures break-down into two camps - spiritual (energy) beings, which reside in the outer planes (Outsiders/deities), and physical beings, which reside in the material world (the Prime Material and four major elemental planes). Spirits can also reside in the material plane, but only 'manifest' occasionally; this would even go for Djinn (that's why they hangout in the lamp so much).
And the whole thing revolves around DEATH. Until death was introduced to the universe, ALL beings were spiritual. Once the material World became corrupted with Death, it changed everything, and the heavens and hells had to be created. Spiritual beings are anchored to their planes of birth, and that's why they return their after they are 'destroyed' or banished. Somehow, this corruption 'severed' that link earth-bound spirits (the Living) had with the material world, and when they are 'destroyed' (killed, whatever), they have nowhere to go.
This is why deities rose to power and challenged the Primordials - in order to insure you had a safe place for eternity, you HAD TO pay lip-service to some deity, in order to gain entry to it's Divine Realm. Otherwise, you were just 'prey' for all the evil entities in the universe to feed-upon.
The Fey severed their own ties to the mortal realms long ago - the equivalent of 'mass suicide'. By creating a Fey-Overmind (similar to what the Illithids do), they were able to fashion their own Godly Domain (Faerie) inside the Feywild, and NOT be beholden to any deities (except their own, which happened regardless as certain individual Archfey approached epic levels of might).
So now I have three main 'camps' of Outsiders - the Fiends, the Celestials, and the Fey (neutral). Within each of those over-groups are dozens of sub-groups, each with its own agenda. The Fey, I believe, were the architects of their own ascendance, and therefor remain 'aloof' from the politics of the cosmos (bot NOT aloof from their own internal squabbles, some of which revolving around factions which want to support one group of Outsiders over the other).
The 'gods' (deities, primordials, and some Elder Powers) are part of this panorama, and not above it, but rather sit in the midst of it (where much of the 'drama' revolves around them). I actually had much more here, but I'm self-editing again (and I am still VERY sick - can't seem to shake it).
*But most are 'stuck' in those forms when they leave the Feywild for any length of time. Some manage to retain some size-changing ability (Firbolg, Duergar, Spriggans, etc) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Mar 2011 00:38:32 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 10:50:32
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| Hope you get healthy, it is a good theory about death. I'd take it. I don't follow canon on that, closer to reincarnation and evolution combined. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 12:00:05
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| I suppose this sort of thing indicates the presence of fey? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 13:50:47
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| That's probably why the fireplace poker, shovel, and brush are kept so close. I don't see any blood on these tools, so this is obviously a new fey infestation. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 06:56:50
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Okay, after two days of bad fever-induced hallucinations (wherein I was delivered several epiphanies by astral beings... all of which I forgot when I 'came to'), I am now re-reading what I wrote the last time and can't believe I missed the most obvious conclusion to draw -
Creatures in the mortal world 'die' because the plane itself is dead. Ymir - the godly manifestation of the prime material - is DEAD.
Extrapolating outward from that, every plane is an actual being. The planes themselves are self-aware, and each 'consciousness' is the mind of an Overgod. Planes, Dimensions, realities, multiverses, domains, Spheres, demi- & psuedo-planes, etc, etc... all are governed by their own consciousness (think about Ravenloft's 'dark Powers')
A 'godly domain' is nothing more then being inside the 'body' of the god itself.
The universe has its own consciousness (like Eternity from Marvel comics), and within that are various dimensions, like matter, time & Space, and within those are the planes, and within those are the demi-planes, and domains, and so on and so forth.
So when a plane 'dies', the native-beings within it loose their connection to the plane. These 'people' become like the last living cells in a dead body. When it is their time to pass-on, instead of just being re-absorbed int the plane as they should be, they are 'excreted' and become cosmic orphans. this is why we need the heavens and hells.
This also makes sense in light of how heaven and hell were created in D&D - they are the consciousness of two Elder gods (Asgoroth and Celestia, whom mortals know as their avatars - Asmodeus and Jazirian). Each plane has one, and for Faerie it is Danu (in my HB cosmology). So if Faerie is a domain within the Feywild, then what is the mind of the Feywild itself? Some Primordial elder god who's portfolio should have been creativity & imagination? (from whence all dreams stem). Could the Overmind of the Feywild be the Demiurge you've talked about Quale?
Could the Demiurge also be 'The Maker' talked about in dwarven myths?
So each plane is really the spiritual 'body' of an Elder God, and each represents some sort of primal concept.
This is not really different then what I had been thinking all along - more of a refinement, really. Its just that now I understand why people on the prime material plane are not bound by the same planer rules that folk of the other planes are. If your plane dies, you're screwed. Mortals are all in need of somewhere to go. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2011 19:08:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 19:21:57
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I need to refine this much more - I like how it ties into the 'anchoring' concept with the fey.
I had assumed that only fey need to be 'anchored', but now I'm thinking this is some sort of 'deep truth' of the universe, and applies to all beings.
The Lady of Pain becomes more interesting as well, if you consider that Sigil is her godly domain, and therefor is 'the body' of the LoP. Perhaps she is the embodiment of suffering, born at the moment Ymir was struck a mortal blow. She is Pain incarnate.
Ao goes from being an overgod, to the consciousness of the sphere itself (which I like better, event though its just a matter of semantics). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 01:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Lady of Pain becomes more interesting as well, if you consider that Sigil is her godly domain, and therefor is 'the body' of the LoP. Perhaps she is the embodiment of suffering, born at the moment Ymir was struck a mortal blow. She is Pain incarnate.
I've explored this extensively elsewhere.
Basically, it amounts to much of what you've just noted here -- the City of Doors as an extension of Her Serenity. I even came up with a nifty notion to explain her bladed head-dress. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2011 : 02:12:58
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| Er, Sigil's Lady of Pain has fey origins? I'd think of her more as a bladeling from Acheron, personally, though from a safe distance. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 11:32:33
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| It is the yugoloths who have the Tower of Incarnate Pain, Sigil would be between them and something unknown in the upper planes. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2011 : 13:59:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This also makes sense in light of how heaven and hell were created in D&D - they are the consciousness of two Elder gods (Asgoroth and Celestia, whom mortals know as their avatars - Asmodeus and Jazirian). Each plane has one, and for Faerie it is Danu (in my HB cosmology). So if Faerie is a domain within the Feywild, then what is the mind of the Feywild itself? Some Primordial elder god who's portfolio should have been creativity & imagination? (from whence all dreams stem). Could the Overmind of the Feywild be the Demiurge you've talked about Quale?
Could the Demiurge also be 'The Maker' talked about in dwarven myths?
So each plane is really the spiritual 'body' of an Elder God, and each represents some sort of primal concept.
It could be if you want, in my cosmology (which is very simplified and human-centric) the answer is not exactly. The Demiurge is the multiverse, it's omnipresent, but parts of its godhead are unaware of their relation. Kinda like Zelazny's Amber, its creative force is more evident in the Feywild, appearing as the Unicorn (Lurue), while the inhabitants of the lawful planes see the Lion and the Serpent(s) (Semphari name Ahriman/Jazirian). Northmen myths about Ymir are an allegory about the development of the multiverse, shattering of demiurge's mind (first the subconscious Ethereal, then the Astral) into dimensions. None of the planes are really immortal, only as there are human minds (or of another creator race) to create them, only the concept of change is close to endlessness.
I'd say the dwarves were born in the ethereal from myths about arsenic-bronze age smiths, they accepted that image as their Maker. First they were avoided until needed in the Feywild, with the beginning of the Iron Age they were exiled. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 00:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Er, Sigil's Lady of Pain has fey origins? I'd think of her more as a bladeling from Acheron, personally, though from a safe distance.
I didn't say I thought she herself was 'fey' - she predates them by far in my cosmology.
What I was getting at is that all things are inter-related, and that all of those 'Elder gods' (Ed's 'Watching Gods') are actually primordial concepts and planes unto themselves.
To add to this, BEFORE the destruction of Ymir (the original Prime Material plane, consisting of one monolithic world), there was no death. Death came into being at that exact moment, thus creating the concepts of Life and Death. The idea of 'life' would have also have been created, since without death the concept is meaningless. We also have the concept of 'pain' being born at that time, which I think the LoP is the embodiment of - she IS Ymir's pain incarnate.
Ergo, this is how I figure it - In the Beginning, there was but One universe, filled with elemental flotsam and the pulsing, unknown energies of the maelstrom. In this dark and misty void dwelled the Shadevari - those 'precursor' races that had evolved in a godless universe. Today, we call the better-known ones aberrations. They find this amusing, since to them, WE are the aberrations.
The universe forms a consciousness, which splits and splits again, and 'the heavens' are separated from 'the earth' (the firmament/Ymir). The Jotuns (Planer Giants) are created to build the world, along with other races, including the Tanar (elementals) and Tezu (powerful flying Exarchs). Cthon tries to destroy Creation, and winds-up mortally wounding Ymir. Followers of Cthon are imprisoned below the world, and the Hells are created. Gaea, the embodiment of natural order, merges her essence with Ymir, and the result is a Plane that is neither dead nor alive, but something in-between. Death leeches-out of Ymir and the Shadowfel (Ethereal sea) is created. Life leeches out of Gaea and the Feywild (Astral Dreamtyme) is created.
Thus there were five planes - The Heavens above, the world (Midgard) between, and the Hells below, with the Feywild mirroring the world upon the underside of the Heavens, and the Ethereal casting the shadow of the world upon the Hells.*
Soon after Asgoroth (Asmodeus) makes a play to control the world, and creates the first of the Banes - exarchs of tyranny - to enslave the lesser beings on the world below. Celestial (Jazirian) commands the Jotuns to contest them (lead by Annam All-Father), as she battles Asgoroth (Ahriman) directly, they grab onto each other and the cosmos is thrown into turmoil, until the two are thrown apart. Asgoroth (Asmodeus) crashed through the world into the Hells, but as he fell his blood was cast upon the trembling world and became like unto eggs. Celestia's essence was disperse into the Heavens, her own flayed strips of flesh taking on life (the couatl) of their own. Both remain trapped until the end of the world.
The world (body of Ymir) was damaged during the conflict, and the rent caused by Ahriman's fall widened until the world itself came apart. Before the drops of Asgoroth's blood (Dragon Eggs) could land upon the distressed and fragmented firmament, the Elder Gods worked together to separate the chaotic forces of the growing maelstrom, creating innumerable 'Crystal spheres' where the Eternals - those first mortal races sometimes called 'Creators' - could continue to survive. The maelstrom itself they separated into four main elements, and thus created the Elder Ordials (Elemental Lords), sometimes referred to as 'Prime Ordials'. And thus once again, one plane became five, but the droplets of Asgoroth's blood continued on their paths, only to find purchase on the mortal worlds in future times.
The worlds and the first races - the Creators, the Eternals - along with many of the planer beings, continued to live-on, but developed in many different directions. On some worlds some died off completely, while on others traces of all of them still survive. All the worlds are mere echoes of that 'First World', and many legends and beliefs found in-common on multiple worlds can be traced back to those early, antediluvian times. As for the Jotuns - the giants - they continued their battle against Asgoroth's brood when the first dragon Eggs hatched on the worlds, but with each successive generation away from the first world, they grow weaker and more 'mortal' (as do the creators). No creature born into the prime material after the death of Ymir would taste immortality again.
*At this time, the 'mortal spirit' is split into three, to represent the tripatriate state of being - the body (Animus), mind (spirit), and soul. the Animus is part of the material world, and is the force that animates the flesh. The spirit is housed in a person's shadow, and represents the negative forces influencing a person's life. A truly divine being casts no shadow. The soul - representing the radiance in a person - is 'reflected' in mirrors; beings without souls cast no reflection. What most folks don't realize is that mirrors make natural gateways into the Feywild (the boundaries between the worlds grow weakest there). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2011 00:44:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2011 : 14:46:47
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Ack! Another long-winded post. I am really trying to shorten them (I actually edited the above and increased its size by about 50%!) 
Anyhow, in another thread (IIRC) tradwitch asked "why do you think the fey are related to elves/Eladrin?"
Now, the assumption has always been there, and no-one (AFAIK) has ever questioned it before, but it bothered me. Then yesterday, while looking for the Princes of elemental Evil for another thread, I came across the original MM (FF, actually) entry for the Drow.
1eFF, pg.33 -
"They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgave nor forgot, and even now, above all else, they bear enmity toward their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down beneath the earth and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world."
Accent, mine.
There's proof for you (and also a strange connection that insinuates the fey were somehow involved in the Descent of the Drow as well.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Apr 2011 14:48:06 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 15:49:15
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There's a line in Counselors and Kings that says the drow fear the Unseelie, maybe that's connected to the Descent, I've never seen drow described to fear any other race.
Anyway, concerning Ymir, why is he so special, if he made the Prime Material, what of other similar beings in your world (e.g. Kingu, Pangu, or the creators like Thoth, Brahma ...)? Cause Norse mythology is one of the youngest. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 17:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
There's a line in Counselors and Kings that says the drow fear the Unseelie, maybe that's connected to the Descent, I've never seen drow described to fear any other race.
That could also be localized to the Shining South -- we've never seen any real Unseelie presence anywhere else. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 21:44:49
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My assumption is that this dates back to a time in Faerie, before the elves came (back?) to Faerűn. Perhaps the Dark Elves (Ilythiir) were chased from the Feywild by the other svartálfar?
I haven't figured out how to spin this yet - it is an interesting bit of lore, in that it's not what one would expect.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Anyway, concerning Ymir, why is he so special, if he made the Prime Material, what of other similar beings in your world (e.g. Kingu, Pangu, or the creators like Thoth, Brahma ...)? Cause Norse mythology is one of the youngest.
I use a very ancient, primordial power from each pantheon for my proto-pantheon (Ptah, Gaea, Kronos/Chronepsis, Visnnu, Shang-Ti (Celestial Emperor), etc, etc...
I also have it where Annam and Odin are one and the same, but he sits in the secondary tier of Ordials (Titans/Jotuns of myth), not 'Elder gods'. I may make him the over-deity of the Dwarves as well (their 'The Maker' power that sits above the Mordinsamman). I've done an interesting twist with him and Grummsh/Talos, having Gruumsh desiring the same wisdom from the Tree of Knowledge (Yggsdrasil), which didn't end so well.
If you are familiar with Marvel Comics, my 'Elder gods' are mostly the 'Cosmic Entities' (primal concepts), with the Ordials being like their 'Celestials' (beings that represent secondary concepts within the universe). 'The Gods' are deities, and are almost all ascended mortals (except for several pantheonic leaders, which I call 'High Gods', and aren't really deities at all.
I use the term 'Ymir' because it fits the concept I want the best, but I do not proscribe to the theory of 'racial pantheons' - the concept of 'Ymir' exists within every pantheon - for instance, in Greek mythos, he would be Uranus (no bad jokes, please).
I purposely choose the names (and powers) of my proto-pantheon from as many religions as possible, to give it more of that 'all are one' feel. The story (creation Myth) contains just enough detail, while still remaining vague, to be able to be applied to all mythologies at once. The concept of 'pantheons' is a human (and other sentients) one - Mankind has a deep-rooted need to codify everything, with lists, charts, maps, and diagrams describing how the universe works, so they need not fear it so much. The real truth is, they are completely clueless (as we are in the RW). The gods all associate with one another, on some level, and although some do enjoy each other's company more then others (hence, Domains with multiple deities), the entire concept of 'pantheons' is completely artificial. We can see numerous evidence of this in various D&D religions, and most especially in FR, where the same powers are in different pantheons, usually with different names proscribed to them.
This why I love the Marvel Comics multiverse so much, and use it as a basis for much of my own HB lore - there is a thing called the 'Council of High-Fathers' in Marvel, where the heads of all the pantheons meet to discuss 'matters cosmic'... how cool is that? Marvel has solved a lot of the 'cosmic quandaries' we are sometimes faced with with contradictory lore, and since they've manage to smooth-over much of that, why not use them? They have beings like Mephisto and Loki dealing with each other... thats the kind of multiverse I see D&D being like. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Apr 2011 21:55:10 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 10:35:22
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Annam and Odin is a cool idea, that's why I made Ostoria and the human polar civilization the same.
Marvel, not sure, there's just too many gods, e.g. does that mean every planet has a Gaea? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 18:07:36
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Well, unfortunately Marvel is a VERY Earth-O-centric universe. Not just a matter of perspective - they actually come right out and say it; humanity has some 'great destiny' or some-such. Makes me wonder if that's where the D&D designers got the idea for that source-book.
'The Gods' of Earth (all the known pantheons) have almost no interest in any other world, and yet they are considered 'lesser cosmic powers' (although Odin seems to be almost a greater cosmic entity at times). Even beings like Mephisto primarily focus on Earth (although one can assume a lot happens 'off-camera' we are not privy to).
So I use some of their concepts, along with many RW and fantasy Creation Theories (including the Glorantha/Runequest one I mentioned awhile back). I don't use all of their 'cosmic entities' - I feel a few are rather redundant - but some of the truly universe-scale beings (Eternity, Infinity, Death, Order & Chaos, Chthon, The Living Tribunal, etc) I borrow liberally from. Guys like 'The stranger' and Galactus are just silly, and the Elders of the Universe should be deities, and NOT 'cosmic entities' (IMHO).
Moving over to DC Comics, I would like to incorporate some of their Green Lantern lore - I really like the Manhunters vs the Oans (Gaurdians) storyline, and I may try to merge some of that with the Marvel Celestials... not sure yet - it may put too much of a 'Scify spin' on certain things, like the ongoing conflict between the (D&D) Celestials and The Fallen (fiends). I also want to merge DC's The Endless with some other concepts, like maybe the Horseman of the Apocalypse. I like that they are like some 'ancient family', which is how I picture the human pantheons working (a very Amber/World of Tiers spin on 'the gods'). I'll probably meld Marvel's Elders of the Universe with them as well - some sort of "deities that have out-lived the races that spawned them" take on the whole thing.
I may take FR's concept of 'Chosen' and re-work it as well - have every greater power have ONE of these; a single mortal chosen to represent them in worldy affairs (then I can use DC's Sandman, Galactus' heralds, Dr. Strange (the Sorcerer Supreme), etc... all as beings representing certain cosmic powers. I guess my assumption here should be at a certain level of power 'cosmic entities' would no longer want to directly interact with mortals (or perhaps cannot), and they would need these intermediaries. Beings that are normally considered 'gods' in comics (like the ones in RW pantheons) wouldn't need these emissaries, since they interact directly.
So someone like Myrkul actually becomes the 'Chosen of Death' - death being a cosmic (universal) concept, and Myrkul being the local enforcer of it's rules (or Kelemvor, whom I do not use). Not sure about this one though - I think the Chosen Ones should still be mortal (demigods). Maybe say that Myrkul was the Chosen of Death (Jergal?), before he ascended to godhood himself. That would probably fit the FR lore better, at any rate. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2011 18:13:06 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 20:26:51
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Agree about the chosen, I'm not sure about death being an universal concept, it is in the Prime ... what are all the concepts you had in mind?
I did look a bit into the these cosmologies when making the homebrew planes, the concept of the phoenix force was the most suitable for the cycles of multiverses and ages of the sun (took them from meso-american mythologies).
Sticking with the rule of three from PS, my Prime has demigods (or the Chosen, avatars, Sages, barae, pharaohs ...), e.g. creatures like Iuz are the highest level. The inner planes have gods or titans, the outer planes have multiversal forces/concepts. Sometimes it seems the number of god-like beings is greater than the number detailed npcs in D&D, so the Gruumsh=Talos change was ok by me.
There is just one world in the Prime where collective subconscious belief of its inhabitants shapes the gods, that happens in the ethereal/inner planes. At the moment only humans have that power, hence the race of destiny. In the past other creator races had the power more or less. Aliens of other worlds draw less interest from the gods as the distance from the prime world increases. There's only two other pantheons, the fading fey powers who in some part overlap with the human one, and the pantheon of the lost three creator races. It’s always the beings from the plane ‘’above’’ that are worshipped, gods in the inner planes for mortals, fey and most other inhabitants of the inner planes (except rebellious individualistic titans) respect incarnations of concepts from the outer planes, their leaders are considered chosen, e.g. Lurue (Child of Mystery), Tyche (Doomfool, luck is considered an aspect of Anomaly) etc. Saurians have the Serpent, some see it as magic (like Vecna), or the Preserver-Creator-Destroyer (nagas), Tyrant etc. Above all is the Demiruge, it’s all concepts (tough two are Flaw-Destiny, Shar and Selune, the most obvious). The Far Realms are former parts of the Demiurge, no longer wanted. Like your Chthon, Infinity is outside of it, nothing can be truly infinite in an universe with a beginning and end. The difference with Chthon is that ‘’Infinity’’doesn’t have a corrupting influence, it is absolute goodness, everything wants to get there.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2011 : 07:32:39
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| No prob, I also looked at the site of the project. It is a fine work, I try to talk my DM into using that ley lines rules for the campaign. I know there we will be some C cyclopean sites. |
Edited by - Quale on 16 Aug 2011 07:35:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 19:23:09
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We need more 'Fey love' in 5e.
That's not why I rezzed this scroll, though. I was going to start my own thread, and decided this one will do (and it is a good time for the WotC people to see how interested many of us are in the Fey).
I was thinking about Ogres the other day. In nearly every setting they have different origins. In Mystara they are even considered goblinoids. In some settings they are like humans with a template (very much like Hagspawn). But it is the take in Krynn/Dragonlance that interests me the most.
What if the Irda were Fey? As we know, fey can change shape and size at will (at least, when within the Feywild). Fey have many different physical descriptions, very similar to how Ogres differ from world to world. I am a fan of D&D first, and always try to get the conflicting lore from different worlds to make sense within a 'bigger picture'. Ogres bother me a lot, because they have so many origins. I always assumed that 'Ogre' was just a word in some ancient (Outsider) tongue that meant 'large brute', and it gets applied to various genus of creatures.
But what if they did all have a common origin? What if the Irda were a type of fey that linked themselves to various energy sources (similar to how earth-bound fey anchor themselves to physical locations). Suppose they had the ability to absorb and use different energy types, but the drawback is that they themselves would be 'tanted' by the energy they were drawing from. Smart Irda would try to switch things around, so as not to alter their personality and appearance over-much. But stupid, arrogant, or desperate Irda may have stuck to one energy source which altered them for all time.
I consider Giants a race native to the Feywild as well (as they well should be, given the folklore). If the Irda/fey became contaminated by dark energies and twisted, would they not be unlike the fomorians? Could the Fomorians themselves be a branch of the Irda, like how the Demonfey are a branch of the elves? And could the Irda be the Le'Shay? It would make some sense, given as both races have very few members left (Irda being the Krynn-specific word for these last few Leshy).
For my own worlds this all works fine... but I don't use any of Troy Denning's giant lore. If we had to, how would we marry the lore from his novels and Giantcraft to this theory of a 'universal ogre ancestor"? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 09:56:18
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| Could be these Irda, I don't know anything about Dragonlance. Are they immortal like the leshay? They appear to be just from one world, why did then only primitive ogres spread to other worlds. Before I considered ogres something between giants and fey (includes fomorians, trolls, voadkyn ...), I never liked stories where gods created entire races, Vaprak in this case. Hagspawn is not a bad idea. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 20:17:19
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Well, I was going back to my "one world, many times sundered" origins for the D&D universe. Ergo, Krynn was once part of this unified Prime Material Plane, and the Irda lived there. Once the plane was shattered into the multiverse, the Irda would have wound-up on many worlds. Thanks to evolution - both magical and natural - they would have evolved into other forms. The ones on Krynn would be the closest to the originals (in my newest theory, the leshy). Like other material-bound fey, they are no longer immortal.*
The ones on Krynn also split into various groups - the Ogres and the Minotaurs (and the ogres split into further sub-groups). The minotaurs also split, but that was more of a cultural thing, and not a 'species' thing.
If the Fey are/were natural shapeshifters (or rather, as I think, they are energy and can assume various forms), then there are many races like the Pyreen of Athas and the Reiger of SJ (I think there was a PS one as well) that may be offshoots of the Prime-bound Fey as well. Note that the only thing these beings seem to have in-common is an otherworldy quality, an air of superiority, and in most instances unnatural beauty.
Thus, most of the true Fey - the ones that were alive when the Material plane was sundered - would have either migrated to the Feywild and eventually ascended to become archfey, or have been killed-off one way or another. Very few of these should be left (like the Le'Shay). The ones that didn't do either of those things and stayed in the prime or other planes would have evolved into something else over time, but maintained some of their ancient customs and attitudes. I think the Maraloi of eastern Faerun (Kara-Tur) may have been another branch.
However, their fey heritage makes them highly susceptible to energy-fields (and things that ground energy fields, such as iron). Just as piece of iron can become magnetized by being placed within a magnetic field, these fey offshoots can become 'tainted' by local energy fields (like Faezress) and changed. This explains what happened to the Irda in Krynn - they were changed, twice (the ogres and the minotaurs).
For how we can tie this into FR lore and make it work (its a stretch), I will make another post later. I don't want to make my posts so long folks won't bother to read them.
*To be honest with you, I know next to nothing about DL myself. Most of my knowledge comes from owning all the MM's from various editions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2012 20:18:58 |
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Fey realms
