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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 17:02:10
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Okay, this is going to sound strange, but I've been thinking about a lot of the FR lore, and D&D lore in general, and I've got a question to pose. So here goes- this is really going to blow some minds....
With all the mythical and fantastic creatures in D&D, and especially in the FR, I've been wondering about where some of this stuff comes from. What I'm talking about are the real world origins of some of our most iconic creatures. For instance, there are thousands of years worth of stroies of dragons, fairies, unicorns, sea mosnters, and just about every other "fantasy" creature you can name. But where do/did these stories come from? And why do these creatures populate so many of our fantasy worlds? Here's my theory- and keep in mind, that's all it is- but it's a doozy.
Now, we all know that these creatures, from basilisks to satyrs, dryads to vampires, have existed in human myth and imagination for millennia. The question is- WHY? Well, since by now most people are familiar with the concept of multiple/paralell worlds and/or realities, it is entirely possible that there are real-world connections to the so-called realms of fantasy and myth. If, as some physicists suggest, there can be an infinite number of universes with infinite earths, then might there also be other worlds in these universes, as well? We have just found our first truly earth-like extra-solar planet, and perhaps it is only a matter of time before life is discovered in some other region of space. And that is just in OUR reality.
There are estimated to be perhaps as many as 40 milloin life-sustaining planets in this galaxy alone. If that proves true, what of the possibility that, unknown to us, there are myriad other worlds in other universes, with life, some of which might hold the very creatures we believe to be nothing more than fanciful stories? in other words. What if, instead of merely imagining such creatures as elves, dragons, dwarves, pixies, and even the Greek myths of Pegasus and Medusa and her gorgon sisters, (Not to be confused with the OTHER D&D gorgons) we are simply peircing the barrier between different dimensions, or universes, or whatever you want to call them? What if we are not CREATING these worlds, but SEEING INTO them?
So far, no one knows for certain if such other frames of reality even exist, but theories of quantum astrophysics suggest that there may well be other universes, seperate and independant, and that perhaps other rules of nature and physics may apply. What may be impossible in our own, such as magic, might very well be possible in others. And perhaps there are places where the veil or barrier between realities becomes thin and things "bleed through" from one to another, even if only in bref glimpses of which we are not consciously aware. What if those worlds we "create" with pen and paper, or through the visual medias of film and art, are simply those glimpses into other worlds, which may be just as real as our own?!
Okay, I know that this is probably going to sound like a really crack-pot idea to some of you, but considering how long many of these creatures have been known and the wide-spread nature of these beliefs in strange beings and otherworldly creatures, one has to wonder if perhaps ancient peoples did not actually see some of them first-hand. There are obviously several distinct races of dragons throughout the world's history, and the Norse dwarves and elves, the Celtic pwcas and banshees, even the lamias and genies of middle-eastern folk-lore- all of these had to come from somewhere. So why not a rift or "portal" if you will, between worlds? Wormhole theory is becoming more accepted as a possibility to explain certain astronphysical anomalies- could it not also explain the creatures of ancient legend? what if Buffy really IS out there slaying vampires and demons on some other Earth, or if the Predator/Alien battle is taking place in some alternate time-line, or some version of Earth has progress so far into space travel that Pern really was colonized and dragons engineered from tiny fire-breathing lizards? What if Elminster truly is sitting by the fire in Shadowdale smoking his pipe, while elsewhere Krynn is engulfed in another Dragon War? The possibilities are staggering.
So what do you all think? Yes? No? Maybe? I'd love to hear other theories on this subject!
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 17:15:08
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| Definitly true! (or at least I WANT it to be true :P) |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 17:18:59
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Read the Well of Souls series. 
Start with Midnight at the Well of Souls - you'll thank me. Technically it's SciFi, but it reads like fantasy. It has magic, and a VERY good explanation for it and all those 'mythical creatures' we have.
Perhaps the best marriage of real-world physics and Fanasy I have read, par none. My very first DM ran a game based on the WellWorld, and I base many of my own theories on that as a foundation.
Jack Vance and Saberhagen's Empire of the East are also classic examples of sci meets fantasy, as well as the Majipoor novels, but Chalker's novels are amazing in that much of his made-up physics is starting to prove accurate, some 30 years before it's discovery. His big-bang is even more relevant today then when it was written.
And its got centaurs....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2010 00:17:09 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 17:28:34
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| LOL! MT, those are all great examples of sci-fi-meets-fantasy, but i'm really wondering if anyone has theories on whether tsort of idea is plausible. Call it a discussion on whether "fantasy" creatures do/did exist as "real" beings. Mythological origins don't matter, it could be redcaps, nymphs, Nessie, anything! do es anyone think they could actually exist? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 18:11:56
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I see nothing that could negate what your saying Alystra, though nothing really supports it either, lol. But I agree that if we, humans of Earth, can dream it up and (going a little religious here) we're created in God's Image and he created us....well I don't see why there can't be those creations somewhere else by Him. But that's from my own view-point of God, creation, and Myth in general.
I find it silly that there are some who believe that we're the only sentient beings in existance when we know very little outside our very own Solar system. Add in the fact that our small galaxy is over 70,000 ly (light years) wide incorporating millions of stars and each star having multipul planets orbiting them. Just thinking about the implications of it's size and the possibilities out there can make you seriously go Mad.
Plus, I like the idea that we're not #1 on the block. It makes our existance more interesting and not so self-centered. Hopefully someday we may even come into contact with some of these creatures, though I feel that any sort of interaction would be similar to Columbus and the Indians (we being the indians in this scenario).
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 18:39:52
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| Yeah. Imagine dark elves raiding our plane/dimension/planet. It would be pretty to behold (drow females *drools on keyboard*) but also VERY painful (again, drow females *drools some more*). :P |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
Edited by - HelldoG on 06 Oct 2010 18:40:37 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 18:52:29
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Myths all explain elements of the human experience of life. Naturally it will describe elements of nature foremost, but all seen from the viewpoint of humans. Animals, rocks, fire, lightning, stars, the sun all 'come to life' in our imaginations, and its easy to equate or relate human behaviours to all of them, especially in stories.
With this in mind I think its "dangerous" to think other dimensions would have anthropomorphic lifeforms. I think it's even unlikely that among those 40 million planets there are sapient monkeys similar to us, evolution is too fickle a thing to be walking a predetermined path. A planet's sentient species could very well evolve in the form of a cephalopod-like lifeform first. Or it could house the "fabled" silicium based lifeforms (earth-elementals?), whose life-codes are passed on by "rocky" cells. Deep space might have evolved sentient gasses or clouds. With our current knowledge its really hard to predict how to define extraterrestial life and its precise form.
With parrallel dimensions things get a bit more muddy, considering theories of mirror dimensions or those that only divert from others in time greatly increases odds of 'finding' other humanlike lifeforms. Some myths already deal with this by talking about abstract "higher (or lower) worlds" and placing mythological creatures origins within that parrallel world. Angels and demons are prime examples of otherworldy creatures that fit the 'dimensional traveller' trait.
A theory I am warming up to is that human knowledge used to be more advanced than we think. Oral traditions have close to double the time to pass on knowledge. Perhaps early shaman' visions were really enabling extensive insight into quantum-physics, enabling shamans to see into parrallel dimensions through training and hallucinogens? Perhaps ghosts stories are quantum-phenomenas that happen at predictable circumstances and early story tellers convened with "extra-dimensional" entities at a real early stage of oral tradition? This way the common themes could be explained.
Remember, cro-magnon humans already were capable of all the intelligence we have now. Imagine being a smart person but you live in the natural world, and there are no ways to learn but from experiencing the things in your clans immediate area. You're mind would be filled with images, words and smells. Searching for any inter-connections would be the most likely thing you would do to "reflect" (gain knowledge). Here anthropomorphism is an easy way to make sense of you're surroundings.
By comparing for example animals or weather paterns to things the thinker knows best (family, favored activities and other 'very' human like things) he creates familiarity. By adding context to such stories whole abstract beings can emerge to denote a certain common problem (dieties and their usually very humanlike organisation in families). A favorite animal will come 'alive' in the minds eye of a information starved human mind, the act of counting the stars will raise numerous questions that get context, and so on and so forth.
We have human minds, and its difficult to emphasize with forms different from those we own. Projection of our own qualities is a powerful mental divice for our sanity. Myths provide us with such.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 19:29:12
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That's a good theory as far as it goes, but it does nothing to explain the stories of human interactions with various mythical creatures, and the often very detailed descriptions of these creatures. From one culture to the next, dragon alone are nearly always described as having certain traits in common, even if some things differ. (Different dragon species? There was a great discovery documentary on a "What if" scenario of dragons being historical reality.)
And then there are the descriptions of many of the fantasy beasts we see in D&D all the time. Centaurs- for example. There is NOTHING in nature to correlate to this type of hybrid being, yet the pre-Hellenic Greeks knew of and apperantly had contact with such a race. Same goes for harpies. And the Celts have fairy stories where humans marry, are kidnapped by and escape from, or are tricked by various types of "fey-folk". Many live underground, or in trees, or in lakes and seas, or even in the air. some stories even describe their homes in detail. does this sound like simple anthropomorphism to explain the every-day natural world? I don't think so. Humans have always had ways to observe the ordinary world around them, and the kind of things often described in these tales seem like far more than simply natural processes or objects or creatures. they leave the realm of the NATURAL, and enter a more other-worldly sort of realm of things unknown in the ancient natural world. In fact, many things we take for granted now would have seemed like exactly the sort of magic and other-worldly things often told of in folklore and myth.
And when you think about it, paralell evolution being quite common, there is plenty of reason to believe that other planets even here in our own galaxy could- even WOULD develop very similarly to our own. It's one reason why Star Trek's alien races all look so similar. For truly intelligent, advanced species to develop, it is assumed that certain traits are useful, even needed. Bipedal, binocular vision, opposable digits, and some sort of complex communication are all pretty much a given. but with just a few tweaks, changing it from a biped to a creature with traits of both bi- and quad- it's not much of a strech to think that some species could develop that would have seemed half man and half horse to early humans who saw it or who "visited" other worlds through the Astral Plane of the mind. Or perhaps some race of short, stocky folk who lived underground and had long beards and big noses, in the case of dwarves. If there is life on otehr planets- and I've no doubt at all that there is, and most likely even intelligent life, then it stands to reason that there might be life in alternate dimensions- and there is no reason to assume that the same rules of physics even apply! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 20:14:31
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Detailed interactions with fictatious mysterious beings (that conveniently speak the same language of the listener) are usually glossed over in myths. These are the parts the teller want to muddy, as no evidence can be provided. Instead a clear definition of their features is given inspired by a common root. One theory is that fossils of dinosaurs are the root of inspiration for most dragon stories, and it nicely explains why they have emerged worldwide.
The detailed stories about mythical creatures and their societies are all allegories for human life experiences, notice how all the fey creatures display exagerated human behaviour (having families, building kingdoms, being jealous). Also look at explenaitions for natural processes (like weather or seasons) by having them be managed by a "father" or "mother" figure as if they go about it as a chief. Subsequently treating a natural phenomena as a person who you can bargain with for favorable conditions by giving them gifts or telling them elaberate stories (praying) is again very human-centered.
I agree with the conditions you stated that are required in sentient species to enable advanced civilisation, but only when limited by our current insight in the natural world. With new biology, technology (magic) and forms of perception wholly different societies should be expected to emerge.
Its easier for our minds to deal with recognisable, predictable forms. Its strange but I think Cthulhu-Sci-Fi like lifeforms are more likely to exist than unicorns, elves and dwarves. Tentacled, icky and -to our eyes- ugly lifeforms are far more likely to be a reality in our galaxy than finding a fantasy equivalent of earth in orbit around Gliese 581. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 06 Oct 2010 20:15:55 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 20:37:27
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I'm glad someone mentioned the Well of Souls series before I found this... and for some reason, I'm not surprised at who it was.  Seriously, that series is brilliant, as is almost everything else Chalker wrote. He did have a bit of an obsession with metempsychosis, but at least he found different ways to use it. On a related note, Nathan Brazil kinda makes me think of a young Elminster... I wonder if there's any connection there?
I also think that something like Zelazny's Amber concept can fit into this too (the idea that many worlds have similar lifeforms because they are "shadows" or abstract copies of one "true" world); it's very "Cave-allegory" (read Plato)... but even if we stick to something more hard-science-y, Bladewind has it right if we limit ourselves to the 40 million (or so) Earth-like planets in this galaxy, but there are billions of other galaxies out there, and wormhole theory gives us a way to travel between them instantly, so who's to say that there isn't a world (or a few thousand) inhabited by the races described by our myths? Even a few thousand worlds (to some a vast number) is a drop in the cosmic ocean, leaving lots of room for the infinite variety of the non-humanoid. On the title of the scroll, I have my own belief (not mine originally, stolen from quantum theory) that every fork of probability creates an alternate universe, giving us our "Planet of the Apes" and DC-universe alternate Earth scenarios. (I haven't read a comic book in years, but the whole "Crisis on Infinite Earths" storyline still blows my mind...) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 21:05:15
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So basically you're saying you don't belive the possibility of such an idea exists. Keep in mind, I'm not just talking about our own galaxy or even our own universe, but of infinite universes- alternate earths, wormholes, and paralell universes, and all of the infinite variations or existance that could go along with that. so if you multiply the number of life-sustaining planets theorized to exist by that scale- and remember, those other universes may have different rules of physics, where magic very well MIGHT work- and you start to get an idea of what I'm suggesting. (And from a totally pagan standpoint, magic is simply manipulation by one's will of oneself, environment, or others through means that are as yet unknown to science. I'm a Wiccan, and am fully in tune with how such energies can be harnessed. Believe it or not, real magic DOES work, even in RL- I've seen plenty of proof with my own eyes!)
Though I will concede that icky aliens ware more likely in OUR reality than say, a satyr, it seems like too much of a coincidence that a story from Wales would describe almost the exact same sort of creature as one from Germany of the same time, when those cultures have had very little contact in their early history. All one has to do is read any compilation of folktales from around the world, and certain triats pop up glaringly frequently in descriptions of such fantastic creatures. There are plenty of examples of detail descriptions, too. Fairies with hollow backs dancing without turning their fronts away from the viewer, gnomes having large hands and noses, the shape-shifting pooka turning into a horse or maid- none of these things makes any sense in the context of a simple "natural process" or being an allegory for human behavior. Seasons are regular, weather can be predicted through many methods long since forgotten by most people today, and a mountain is just that- a mountain. It is there for countless generations, and so need no reason to be explained how it got there, unless it is volcanic. However, creatures that might be LIVING in it might very well be explained or described, and this is what I'm talking about- things like the Norse giants that have never been a part of nature, not dinosaur bones. Besides which, the dinosaur bones do not explain why western dragons have wings AND four limbs- something no known reptile or mammal has ever had- while Oriental ones have multiple limbs but no wings. Even with entire skeletons to examine, you'd be hard-pressedto get a flying, fire-breathing monstrosity out of a velociraptor or a stegosaurus.
And there are also many stories that are told from first-hand accounts. Going into a vast lighted kingdom underground in a fairy-mound and finding tiny horses, knights, and lasses of inhuman beauty, all drinking honey and milk, does not sound to me like muddied waters when it comes to the teller being vague on account of lack of evidence. In fact, many stories specifically mention bringing back some item from these other worlds, like a hat, girdle, or perhaps an animal. One in particular had a man who married a fairy woman pine for home after some time, and so she gave him a horse and told him not to get off when he returned home. His men (he was a king) were told the same. They got back to their forer home after crossing a sea, and one got off the horse only to turn to dust. Several centuries had passed since they had left, though they though it was only a few years. The rest never did get off their mounts, and eventually disappeared back into fairie. This is not a vague or evidence-less tale, but a very specific account of human dealings with such creatures- even marriage to one! As for why they speak the same language? That's simple enough, many of these beings are mentioned as having been in the lands of the humans in question for as long as anyone remembers. If they are presumably there first, is it any wonder, then, that they would learn the language of their new human neighbors? Why they no longer seem to appear is another subject altogether, but there are enough mentions of these creatures "going off to elfhame" to get away from encroaching humans to account for the lack of current tales (And if you know where to look, you can still come across the odd story here and there of recent vintage...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 21:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I'm glad someone mentioned the Well of Souls series before I found this... and for some reason, I'm not surprised at who it was. Seriously, that series is brilliant, as is almost everything else Chalker wrote. He did have a bit of an obsession with metempsychosis, but at least he found different ways to use it. On a related note, Nathan Brazil kinda makes me think of a young Elminster... I wonder if there's any connection there?
Didn't that series include a character that was a were-Pekingese or something like that? Its been some years since I read Chalker, but that detail stands out. Unless I am really getting mixed up of course. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 23:42:15
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Hmm, afore I go any further discussing this, I want to point out some might take offensive to some of the things I mention. Realise I only advocate a good discussion here. Thanks. :)
The idea of finding mythical creatures or their equivalents in our perception in alternate dimensions is sound.
I question but the validity of finding myths in reality. In our information based society its hard for such beautiful stories to keep up with actual (measurable) facts of life. I haven't seen a convincing video of a ghost, but they have been sighted for ages. Ghosts keep being sighted because the story it inherently tells is beautiful and appealing to our minds (they give us hope of something after death and appeal to our primal emotion: fear of death), and part of our collective culture because of our shared sense of self. Similarly equating mythical facts as scientific proof for natural processes is an exercise that results in nothing more then insight in the cultural area where such myths are told.
Early migratory patterns of oral history is a very interesting subject to look into to find evidence for common legends, myths and mythological creatures. Some cultural groups have had far further influence then thought early 20th century. Certain early humans were able to cross geographic boundaries thought to be uncrossable with more ease then commonly thought. The spread of and mutual influence of early languages can account for alot of common tales that are shared across Europe, Africa and Asia.
There are lots of natural processes we don't fully comprehend, but they can become clear with enough perspectives and evidence. The first dinosaur bones were not found neatly arranged in their glorious full forms. Parts of large ribbones would be found indepently. Early humans may have mistaken them for large humanbones and the first tale of a huge man-creatures would have emerged from such musings. If one would find a loose raptor skull the size of a single beast of burden its easy to become terrified a monstrous lizard would one day devour your cattle. Pteradons have batlike wings resembling fantasy dragonwings, perhaps early samplings of essembling fossils had enough pieces of different species amongst pteradon fossils to make the assembled predicted form a winged lizard or snake. [Try looking for early drafts of the Stegosaur, they don't look anything like the most agreed upon current form).
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 00:31:15
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My point was that in the WellWorld novels the mythical creatures are just our racial memories of real creatures. They did the same thing in Matrix: Reloaded - the 'strange beings' (vampires, ghosts, ect..) were artifacts from earlier versions of the matrix program that survived.
So yeah, not only do I think there is a basis of truth in all myths, I think that there are still many mythical creatures all around us, all the time. They've just developed the ability to 'cloak' themselves from us. Evolution often works in strange and bizarre ways, so why not critters that can bend light, move too fast for the human eye to follow, or effect our senses in such a way as to make us 'over-look' their presence? If we can accomplish those things with science (and we have), why couldn't nature do it?
Its been my experience that nature still has us beat by a few billion years of experimentation and experience, and anything we can imagine was probably tried already, long ago. We can't even build a decent replacement for an eye yet. Quantum physics is child's play to the universe, and there is a trillion times a trillion things we do not know, compared to what we only think we know.
So be nice to the crazy guy who tells you he's talking to a little blue man - because he and that little man are both laughing behind your back. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2010 00:32:01 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 01:03:00
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Okay, I'll give you the dinosaur one- maybe. Although even that idea requires there to have been multiple deaths at one site of vastly different species- which is not something found at most dig sites even today. And it would have been much harder in ancient times to dig deep enough to find parts of more than one beast in any case. Most finds would have only (at least, we can make the surmise) been those of a partial animal, or of perhaps a few unlucky members of one species caught together in an accident. Very rarely would one ever find anything resembling the conglomeration you've described, Bladewind.
Cultural migrations aside- and most of those happened much further back than the regional stories go- it is not very likely that a person living in early medieval France would have known anything of the fire-side tales of Scotland or Manx, or vice versa. But even that idea fails to take the first-hand told tales into account. And the creatures I'm talking about are not abstract beings like gods (to go into your natural process assumption, which is really dealing with another subject altogether, that being spirituality), but ones that are clearly flesh and blood. Hercules was tutored by a centaur- this story is well known, and illustrates that there was a very early interaction with inhuman races. Where they went or what happened to them is anyone's guess, but sailors have told of mermaids for centuries, and one thing that is always the same no matter the culture or context of the encounter, is that they HAD BEEN THERE BEFORE. They were known, and accepted, and even occasionally met.
Ghosts are perhaps something else entirely- things of THIS world, but perhaps another plane of existance. Again, that is another subject, dealing with a more spiritual origin. Angels and demons would tend to fit into that same category, unless we are talking about the Biblical ones that physically visited men, but those may be a different type. The most interesting aspect to some of these stories is that the creatures often have definite names (Rumplestiltskin is the most famous of these), and seem to be bound by certain definite rules. The best example is of Brownies leaving a house where they have worked to help the humans if a gift of clothing is left for them. Whether this is from taking offense, or if there is some sort of magic that binds them, is unclear. But it is evident that the rules they live by are inviolate. And none of these customs seem to equate to any known human customs. Some of them even play games that are far different from those played by the humans living in their area!
Jakk seems to have hit the nail on the head, as it were, as to how these ideas could originate from encounters of things from an alternate world. And perhaps it's not even a physical sort of contact at all, but glimpses of shadows of those other worlds. Something that at one time came close to our own frame of reality, but not into it, per se. And at this time of year, when the so-called "veil between the worlds" is said to be thin, it is not hard to imagine our ancestors communing with beings from other dimensions, whether consciously, or in some altered state of consciousness. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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jaelin910
Acolyte
Australia
18 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 03:00:29
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| theres a line from one of terry pratchetts booksthat i cant quite remember but it goes something like "if something can be imagined it must exist somewhere" because the universe is infinite(possibly)therefore anything will exist somewhere and we are just 'imagining' things that exist somewhere but not here |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 04:45:12
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| I think people were just high back then, and told stories of what they saw. People heard and traveled and told stories like passing bards. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 07:30:24
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While I like the things concocted in the realm of fantasy, to think that they actually exist doesn't sound right to me. Things exist because they do, and not because we think they do. Here's a good elucidation from THE ROUTLEDGE COMPANION TO SEMIOTICS AND LINGUISTICS.
quote:
Signs and modes of representation rather than representation itself come to constitute ‘reality’. Signs become mere atoms: lonely, hermetic signs making up a new type of social order. They become charged with meaning only in relation to, and take their rightful place in the language of, the media
with respect merely to other signs in the entire interwoven, variegated, labyrinthine tapestry. Signs have no destiny other than that of floating in an undefinable, referenceless space of their own making.
Also, we must note that sometimes certain realities are constructed by those people who are in power, with explanations that suit them and their subjects. For instance, if the Council of Elders in some remote village 'say' that the reason their village has never been attacked by wolves, other animals, and other neighboring tribes is because they have 'Guardian Spirits' who repel all sorts of threat to their safety, the rest of the villagers would of course believe that such creatures (which are the stuff of fantasy) indeed exist. Even should they suffer an attack from a hostile tribe, the Council can simply say something like “We might have done something that displeased the Guardian Spirits...” This of course is hardly a basis that fantastical creatures such as the 'Guardian Spirits' do exist. Here's a sentence from the aforementioned book that stresses my point:
quote:
As Mehan puts it: ‘All people define situations as real; but when powerful people define situations as real, then they are real for everybody involved in their consequences.’
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Every beginning has an end. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 08:56:20
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There's enough documentation of UFO's in the sky and paranormal activity on earth, even w/o the hackjobs done on youtube and people deliberately claiming false things, wherein we can rightly believe that "The truth is out there," and that governments have been hiding things even before Roswell in '47 and continue to do so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecxC4VgBYKk
We can throw out a million more anecdotes, but it'd juss end up into a he said/she said or My belief vs. Your belief or My God > your god discussion. In the end, people are either gonna believe or they won't, regardless of the discussion. There's always gonna be people who have an agenda, so juss believe things (or not) for yourself. You're either convinced in your heart about what's beyond or not, as the mind can't always fathom these things due to lack of facts that we can touch as if they were nouns (person, place, or thing, etc). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 14:43:38
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There is physical evidence of both large ape-like creatures (Homo-Gigantus), and tiny 'men' (Homo floresiensis), dubbed 'Hobbits' by science.
The Ape-like creature's bones are pretty ancient, but that doesn't mean preclude the fact that stories of them wouldn't have survived until the present day.
The tiny men of Indonesia are more recent - a mere 10,000 years ago. Both china and India had empires nearly dating to back then, so they are actually right on the borderline of recorded history (ergo, NOT prehistoric).
Recorded sightings of creatures similar to both of these have been reported all over the world, right up until modern times. That's not racial memory, and pre-dates a time when we had a global information network (and still does in remote areas, like the Amazon).
The same can be said for 'lake monsters'.
What I think is going on here is that off-shots of humanity (and nature probably tried quite a few before they got to us) and other cryptids may still be surviving in remote locations, and have developed certain abilities of camouflage, be it something bizarre (like a chameleon), or sense-dulling, which could be psionic in nature or some sort of chemical released by the creature.
I know it sounds strange (and I sound a bit nuts), but I've been studying this stuff since I was a kid, and it is nearly impossible for so many stories to be so similar from remote parts of the world without some basis of truth.
In fact, I think I may have at least part of the solution nailed-down, and my 'theory of everything' uses a lot of Tesla's theories concerning Electro-magnetism, and Hawking's recent theories about non-linear time (time does not 'flow' - it is static and our perceptions move through it, like dialing-in a radio).
But enough of my borderline insanity... 
Lets just say that 'something' existed at some point, which formed the basis for all these stories. MANY early life-forms developed a single horn on the bridge of their noses (Rhinos are a relic of this), and we know for a fact dragon-like creatures once roamed the Earth. So weather you want to believe there may be survivors still existing somewhere is up to you, but all myths have a grain of truth at their core. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2010 14:58:59 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 16:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is physical evidence of both large ape-like creatures (Homo-Gigantus), and tiny 'men' (Homo floresiensis), dubbed 'Hobbits' by science.
The Ape-like creature's bones are pretty ancient, but that doesn't mean preclude the fact that stories of them wouldn't have survived until the present day.
The tiny men of Indonesia are more recent - a mere 10,000 years ago. Both china and India had empires nearly dating to back then, so they are actually right on the borderline of recorded history (ergo, NOT prehistoric).
Recorded sightings of creatures similar to both of these have been reported all over the world, right up until modern times. That's not racial memory, and pre-dates a time when we had a global information network (and still does in remote areas, like the Amazon).
The same can be said for 'lake monsters'.
What I think is going on here is that off-shots of humanity (and nature probably tried quite a few before they got to us) and other cryptids may still be surviving in remote locations, and have developed certain abilities of camouflage, be it something bizarre (like a chameleon), or sense-dulling, which could be psionic in nature or some sort of chemical released by the creature.
I know it sounds strange (and I sound a bit nuts), but I've been studying this stuff since I was a kid, and it is nearly impossible for so many stories to be so similar from remote parts of the world without some basis of truth.
In fact, I think I may have at least part of the solution nailed-down, and my 'theory of everything' uses a lot of Tesla's theories concerning Electro-magnetism, and Hawking's recent theories about non-linear time (time does not 'flow' - it is static and our perceptions move through it, like dialing-in a radio).
But enough of my borderline insanity...
Lets just say that 'something' existed at some point, which formed the basis for all these stories. MANY early life-forms developed a single horn on the bridge of their noses (Rhinos are a relic of this), and we know for a fact dragon-like creatures once roamed the Earth. So weather you want to believe there may be survivors still existing somewhere is up to you, but all myths have a grain of truth at their core.
There is no evidence to suggest that China or India had empires -8000 BC. Indeed, you are off by about 7500 years.
"Off-shoots" of humanity do not exist. That is not how speciation works.
Homo giganticus is not real. These alleged pre-humans are made-up. No evidence to support these "biblical giants" has ever been uncovered.
The jury is still out on homo floresiensis, and cladistic studies are subjectic at best. Until we get a genome, the best evidence indicates a population with significant developmental disease, not weed smoking, fur-footed farmers.
Racial Memory a.)does not exist and b.)is radically offensive.
Alystra Illianniis:
These theories of yours are utter balderdash, pure and simple. I'm glad you hedged your comments, or else I would think you were crazy.
The folk-lore you refer to is not 'millennia' old. I highly recommend you do some *real* folklore study, as opposed to drawing references from World of Darkness and Dungeons and Dragons sourcebooks.
Please note that what cosmologists refer to as 'alternate dimensions' is very different from what science fiction writers refer to as 'alternate dimensions'. There is some great popular-level reading on the discipline of cosmology. Check 'em out!
Now, I know Greenwood seems to jive with FR characters visiting the Real World, but is this topic really appropriate for the General Realms Chat area? I don't read these forums to get a dose of conspiracy theory and pseudo-science, I read them to learn more about, and discuss, a FICTIONAL world. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 17:16:14
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As an armchair scientist, I respectfully disagree.
I've studied these things, and my opinions are constantly evolving. I do not simply decide something is 'right', while something else is 'wrong' based on the extremely limited scientific data we have (and yeah, we don't know 1% about the energies/mysteries involved in the universe, so to think that we 'see' everything our paltry 5 senses allow us to be privy to is completely preposterous). You espouse the notion that the human animal is perfect and flawless - nothing can be further from the truth.
And I actually don't believe in 'racial memory' either - I just offered it as an option. My belief is that most of these things did exist, and some probably still do.
"The wise man realizes he knows very little" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2010 17:18:47 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 17:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay You espouse the notion that the human animal is perfect and flawless - nothing can be further from the truth.
"The wise man realizes he knows very little"
I espoused no such belief. Please retract the above statement promptly. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 17:56:06
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@ Brace: I am basing most of my ideas on modern scientiific theories of wormholes, time-space anomlaies, and yes, sightings of "cryptids" and UFO's, ghosts, etc. And for the record, I HAVE read many "REAL" tales in both folklore and mythology (Read my mentions of specific myths and folktales again, pal- those did NOT come from D&D sourcebooks!!) you are, of course, entitled to your opinio, but please refrain from bashing mine or anyone else's here. I am very much aware of your reputation for doing this, hich to me smacks of a modern-day troll in the house.... (No offense, of course.)
And perhaps you might have missed it at the beginning, but the idea of these "fictional worlds" being part of a greater frame of reality is half the point. It's a bit of a stretch to believe in such a possibility, true, but then again, isn't broadening our horizons of what we can believe in (or our "suspention of disbelief", if you will) part of the reason we read these stories in the first place? Just something to consider.
As for racial memory- as a Wiccan, (said it above- I have delved quite deeply into various occult and other studies including herbalism, psychic phenomena, ghosts, et al as a result of my spiritual leanings, so yes, I do know whereof I speak.) i have learned that there are some things we are pre-disposed to understanding or knowing, even without prior exposure- just as a cat automatically knows what a snake is and that it is dangerous, even if it has never seen one before! I have an amusing story that illustrates that very point. I had a cat several years ago, who was kept indoors, and had never been in contact with any snake- had no way of knowing what it was, in fact- but one day while watching a nature documentary (See? I study accepted sciences, too! I'm multi-subject oriented...) a rattlesnake was shown on the TV, coiled and rattling ready to strike. My cat, who I'll repeat had NEVER seen or heard one, walked past at that moment, saw and heard the snake, and instantly growled, frizzed up, and jumped sideways away from it, then went into a battle posture and swatted repeatedly at the image! No racial memory, my a$$. If a cat with no prior knowledge of such a creature can know what that sound is and react to seeing the snake, why shouldn't a human, who has been around on this earth almost as long as felines, have a similar sort of hard-wired memory? I cry BS to that notion!! Instinct is not enough to explain this kind of reaction, as it requires experience with the danger to recognize it, and in any case, cats do not have this specific reaction to ANY OTHER SPECIES. Just snakes. A cat's natural inclination toward snakes seems so very ordinary- until one remembers the Egyptian myth of Bast and Set!! Enmity between species- it's an intriguing notion of itself... Oh yes, they remember. It is thought to be something passed down from mother to offspring, but even that notion is hard for me to accept, as the cat in question had been hand-raised and bottle fed from two weeks, having lost his mother. No mother to teach him, therefore, how did he know what a snake was? Racial memory, my friends.
MT, I like your thinking. when something catches my interest, I do as you most likely do, and go find out for myself by whatever resources are available. Read a lot of books on obscure subjects that way. Atlantis, fortune-telling methods (some of these are truly bizzar), you name it. I'm especially fond of Greek and Celtic mythology, and to a lesser extent the Norse. And medieval folktales. I've loved them since I was a kid, and have read quite a few that are not very well-known. The Irish and welsh ones are generally the most fun- and the most interesting from the standpoint of my thread topic. There is a wealth of lore, if you know where to look. Ancient african and Amer-Indian stories are full of creatures that seem to tie in to the European ones, too. Just look at the Flood myths from around the world for an example of how these tales can have similarities. And Brace, these are real, historically documented legends, not the few lines of flavor text in a D&D sourcebook. (I'm not including WoD because I have not even played it in years- not since I had a really crappy GM who intentionally tried to kill off our entire werewolf party. I never played in his games again.)
As a writer myself, I often have to wonder where these ideas for stories come from. sometimes they just seem so real and vivid, I cannot help but think that I am catching glimpses of some other world... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 18:49:44
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Amer-Indian... oh boy.
Races do not exist. This is a scientific fact.
Your house cat, a descendant of F. silvestris, from central Africa, has a genetically endowed 'memory' of an alarm mechanism developed by a Central/North American serpent, V. crotalinae?
That's... amazing?
Modern scientific theories regarding wormholes are math exercises. Nothing more. The wormhole theory papers of the late 80's and early 90's are based on solutions to general relativity forms. We *know* that general relativity is flawed. We KNOW that general relativity breaks down at the Planck scale. We know that quantum mechanics are 'in play' at the Planck level. We KNOW that general relativity and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable.
The 'extra dimensions' of scientific cosmology are NOT alternate 3+1 dimensional worlds, but compactification of additional dimensions. In some theories, you and I pass through these 'extra dimensions' constantly.
Do a search for Calabi-yau, or g2 manifold, to get an idea of what a tiny tiny tiny tiny 7-9 supersymetric space *might* look like.
Or, groove to this analogy, which I think comes from C. Sagan. You are 3-D(+1). The shadow you cast is 2-D(+1). Now imagine the form which casts you (4-D+1). If you can imagine that, (I can't), then imagine the form which casts the 4-D+1 form, it's 5-D+1.
Are you trolling these forums, Alystra? Purposely posting crack-pot ideas, in an attempt to get a "rise" out of offended/sane posters?
However, I think that 'name calling' should be reserved for the schoolyard, not for adults who are exchanging ideas.
Or perhaps you would rather denigrate anyone whose opinion differs from your own? Sry, dude, but if you post on fora, you are bound to encounter people who disagree with you. Perhaps you should head your posts with something like, "Do Not Respond Unless You Support My Position"?
I will refrain from offering a clinical assessment of someone who believes that unicorns and Redcaps traveled through inter-dimensional wormholes in the distant, (or not so distant) past, to interact with humans.
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The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 18:58:51
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The name-calling is... Well, I'm kinda expecting Wooly or Sage to pop in by now... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 19:14:22
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But it's all true. You want an evidence? Look in the mirror, dude. You're a perfect speciment of a troll, from the dimension of Trolltopia. *rolls eyes*
Could you stop irritate people, Brace? We all know that you're all-knowing. Give as some slack. Geez.
Ban him, or at least delete those trolling posts, for Lurues sake! |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
Edited by - HelldoG on 07 Oct 2010 19:16:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 19:38:51
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And I think this thread has deteriorated into a brawling stade. I wonder where the mods are... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 19:42:43
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| I wish I could become a Mod in here. This place needs someone to bash some heads and give some official warnings, if you know what I mean. |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 20:16:50
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Firstly, Brace- I AM NOT A DUDE. Check my profile- female, married, VERY happy to be so.
Funny, but I do not remember referring to an Amer-indian RACE, but the culture, which does exist. Please do not put words in my mouth- or post, as it were. And DNA differences would tend to suggest that there are some very clear lines between most human "races". not enough to matter, perhaps, but minor changes in phyiology. If it were any other species, it would be called a race without question. I tend to think that scientists shy away from this word in humans for reasons of being PC.
A math exercise. Huh. What is merely math to you may eventually prove to hold universal truths and structures in its numbers. And the math does not explain the strange phenomenon of "disappearing" particles in space- or to put it more simply, where so much of the matter in the universe is, when there are discrepancies in spacial density that should not exist, but do.
I have neither outright denegrated nor name-called to anyone else's ideas here, and no, I do not go "trolling" with "crack-pot" ideas to get a rise out of people, but to get an honest and open-minded view from others on ideas that come to me. Granted, that one came at 8 in the AM when I was on three days with little sleep, and on my way to my regular trip to the library, so take it as you will, folks. My head is often full of strange and sometimes bizzar thoughts at that time of morning. Still waking up, if you like. And if any of you could hear some of the stray thoughts and weird convos my hubby and I have at bed-time, I'm sure I'd be locked up quite fast, but that's another issue, lol!
I do not ask that everyone agree with me or believe in the thoughts I put forth, only that people CONSIDER them with an open mind, and supply any thoughts of their own which they think contribute. This does NOT include simply accusing me of having only read D&D books or of my own opinions/theories being "utter balderdash", by the way. That troll statement was meant to remind people that that sort of trash-talk does not belong here, not simply to name-call. I'd like to keep this NON-flammatory, and intelligently discussed, but it would seem my ideas are too far out there for some people's tastes or comfort. So be it. I've never been one to fully accept the world I see as the only one that exists, simply because our understanding of it and the universe as a whole is so very finite and small.
So, to put it simply- the universe around us is so full of wonders and mysteries, how can we NOT imagine that the tales we grew up on for generations have no basis in truth? Were our ancestors all a bunch of toking crack-pots who thought every little leaf was some sort of fanciful creature? Of course not. They lived in the here-and-now, with problems that most of us today have no concept of. Their world was very different from today, and perhaps that is part of the problem. We've all forgotten how to dream..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 20:41:54
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| Very beautifully written, Alystra. I agree wholly. Ignore Brace, he's just writing ANYTHING that will stir-up hateful responses towards him, just for the kick of it. He's an attention junkie :P. |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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