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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 17:38:29
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Not terribly convinced by his prowess yet but I'll include Obould and his siege of Mithrall Hall. If only for his feat of claiming and holding it in the face of the High Lady's Alliance. Also his ancestor deserves a mention for his taking the dwarven city of Felbarr in the Battle of Many Arrows.
Furthermore included another dwarf general mentioned in this thread, King Emerus Warcrown; plus the original general of the little porthaven later known as Waterdeep, War Lord Nimoar. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 27 Mar 2011 18:24:50 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:09:26
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| Wait a moment; his ancestor? It was my understanding that Obould himself took Citadel Felbarr, had held it for a few years before losing it to infighting prior to his march towards Mithril Hall. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Wait a moment; his ancestor? It was my understanding that Obould himself took Citadel Felbarr, had held it for a few years before losing it to infighting prior to his march towards Mithril Hall.
That is my take on it as well...Obould was the orc that took Felbarr.
That is why I thought he would be a viable option for great general. He has accomplished a great deal... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 20:42:49
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| Eh, you both know Obould named his sons Obould, yes? Because Felbarr was first taken in 1104, and renamed Citadel of Many Arrows. The later Obould, that claimed his own independant kingdom, is something like the seventeenth King in his line... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 20:49:52
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| I'm going to have to find a source to look up the date on that. I distinctly remember the novels having Obould speak as if he had personally taken(and lost) Felbarr, wikipedia mentions that he had taken and lost it, as well. That being said, my memory has proven flawed many times before and wikipedia is wikipedia, but still, I'm going to want to double check on taht. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 21:41:48
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This from "The Savage Frontier" by Paul Jaquays:
quote:
Ice Mountains Orcs
Most of these are orcs loyal to King Graul, son of Eldoul. The rest (over 40,000 in the Citadel of Many Arrows alone) follow Obould, an orc of giant stature and fighting prowess (though Obould is said to pay fealty to Graul). The Ice Mountains orcs wage constant war with the dwarves of Citadel Adbar and stage frequent raids against Silverymoon and Sundabar.
quote:
Citadel of Many Arrows
Population: 40,000 orcs
Government: Ruled by self-styled King Obould, a giant, powerful orc.
This fortified city was once the dwarven hold of Felbarr, part of the realm of Delzoun. When that ancient realm began to falter, the dwarves abandoned ancient Felbarr (which was far from any productive mines) and turned it over to troops from Silverymoon. The human garrison of 3,000 troops immediately came under attack from orcs.
Fifty years later, an orc horde of awesome magnitude poured down from Dead Orc Pass to the east, surrounded the citadel and, heedless of their own losses, slaughtered the human defenders to a man in what became known as the Battle of Many Arrows.
The orcs in the citadel are far too numerous to dislodge. They constantly harass travelers between Silverymoon and Sundabar, even attacking caravans in sight of the cities#146; gates. The citadel has too many residents, most are hungry and poor (even by orc standards).
Economy: Trades in plundered goods particularly with other orc tribes and evil human merchants. Chief manufacturer of orcish-made weapons and armor of all types.
Militia: The citadel has 1,000 orcs on guard and another 1,000 patrol the wilds at all times. In times of need, 18,000 warriors can be summoned.
The emboldened type is the part I had forgotten...it seems that it is indeed a different orc that took the place. My bad. 
That is what I get for having too much lore stuffed in my ever shrinking mind!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 23:30:10
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| How about Aoth Fezrim? Maybe mercenaries don't count. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 23:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
How about Aoth Fezrim? Maybe mercenaries don't count.
While he doesn't officially hold that office, in essence, he's like one, because in almost all the battles he 'led,' he's always been the primary strategist. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 10:35:26
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| I believe that Eldrith the Betrayer was once considered to be among the greatest generals of her age ,before her fall from grace of course. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 06:22:14
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Re: The orcan conquest of Citadel Felbarr
We are told that the dwarves left the citadel more than three hundred years before, handing it off to human settlers, who lost the fortress to orcs fifty years later (The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier, "The Wilderness": p64: "Citadel of Many Arrows").
This apparently got changed, or muffed, when it was written that the fortress had been in orc hands for three centuries before being recaptured by dwarves (FR Campaign Setting {3E}, p172: "Citadel Felbarr"; The Thousand Orcs, Pre.).
Either way, I've never read anything that said that Obould was particularly long-lived for an orc.
Donnia Soldou attributes the former sacking of Felbarr to Obould's kin, rather than Obould himself (TTO, P1:C1).
And Volo's Guide to the North tells us that it was only after much time that Obould emerged and declared himself king.
Nevertheless, in The Lone Drow, RAS (apparently, though it could've been an editor) wrote that the orc king himself had conquered Felbarr not long in the past, and that Gerti had remarked that orc conquests were usually not very long-lived affairs, and neither was this particular one (TLD, P3:C19).
We're told that Tarathiel knew that an orc named Obould had previously conquered a dwarven citadel (TLD, P3:C21).
Again, Innovindil says that she remembers when Obould routed the dwarves of Felbarr, and that it had only been a short-lived victory (The Two Swords, P1:C2).
We're told that he had taken Felbarr by surprise (TTS, P1:C3).
Even Bruenor says that Obould took Felbarr once before, and is planning to do it again (TTS, P1:C7).
An orc shaman remarks that Obould hardly seems the same warrrior who had led the charge against the Citadel (The Orc King, P3:C18), though this may simply be a case of the shaman reflecting on lore about Obould, rather than direct knowledge of Obould's personal accomplishments. (There's also a juicy little typo in there, but I digress!)
Obould is even given credit for leading the attack against Felbarr in official, canonical histories (The Grand History of the Realms, p110: 1104 DR).
If I had to guess, I would say that the familiar orc named Obould is not the one who conquered Citadel Felbarr. He only rose to power much later. But political propaganda being what it is, he was eventually credited with that victory, anyway. Perhaps he took credit, to get that ball rolling. Maybe it was one of his shamans. Maybe it was one of his ambitious, or even sycophantic sons. And maybe he fostered this revisionist history, after a time, knowing that his orcs would not be too careful about technicalities, and would even welcome anything contributing to their national and racial pride. Regardless of the true history, others in the region may have even gone along with it, using the idea of Obould and Felbarr as an ongoing meme, either to trump up his power and threatening nature, or to rub it in that he had just lost the fortress in the 1360s DR. (Think Al Gore and the invention of the internet.)
And if King Bruenor Battlehammer, of the Mithral Hall Battlehammers, told you that Obould had taken Citadel Felbarr, would you really tell him that he was wrong, because of what you read in a few history books?
My guess is that Realms historians probably had a hard time speaking over the Alliance-minded leaders of the North when it came to the issue of Obould's past accomplishments. It served the leaders' interests to puff him up--true history be damned.
Maybe there really was another orc named Obould who took Felbarr in the first place, and that coincidence of names helped contribute to the confusion, and our Obie willingly took full advantage of it!
Maybe our Obie wasn't originally even named Obould, but instead took that name in order to try to build up his street cred. It's possible that Obie got his name changed to try to increase his star power!
(He probably had some "work" done, too. Just sayin'!  ) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 16:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I believe that Eldrith the Betrayer was once considered to be among the greatest generals of her age ,before her fall from grace of course.
Where is this figure from?
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Thanks for the insight, Beast. I personally think you're right in assuming Obould uses the tales spun around the siege of Fellbar to his political advantage. Oral tradition is a cultural expression easily manipulated in favor of one would be heroic individual. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 26 Mar 2012 16:11:39 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 16:16:42
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| I'm surprised there's little mention of dwarven generals. Dwarves like battle just as much as they like recounting in-depth accomplishments of their ancestors (accomplishments often measured in terms of prowess at warfare and slaying). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 02:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm surprised there's little mention of dwarven generals. Dwarves like battle just as much as they like recounting in-depth accomplishments of their ancestors (accomplishments often measured in terms of prowess at warfare and slaying).
Bah! I was getting around to it...
Is winning a major battle the only legitimate measure of a great general? What about simply stalling an enemy long enough to allow for other operations to succeed? What about failed, but valiant last stands?
King Bruenor Battlehammer - Icewind Dale, Mithral Hall, the North, the Sword Coast - Battle of Ten-Towns, Battle of Icewind Dale (The Crystal Shard); Battle to re-take Mithral Hall (The Halfling's Gem); Battle for the head of the spider (Siege of Darkness).
Steward Regis - Calimport, Icewind Dale, Mithral Hall, the North, the Sword Coast - Headed preparations of the Hall for mass drow invasion (Starless Night); Oversaw all Hall operations while under siege by King Obould Many-Arrows (The Lone Drow).
General Dagnabit Waybeard - Citadel Adbar, then Mithral Hall - originally credited with being co-leader of the Battle to re-take Mithral Hall (The Halfling's Gem); as King Bruenor lay dying, impersonated Bruenor and Rallied the troops during the Siege of Shallows (The Thousand Orcs).
General Dagna Waybeard - Citadel Adbar, then Mithral Hall - subsequently credited with being co-leader of the Battle to re-take Mithral Hall (The Legacy); Battle for the Undercity (Siege of Darkness); Battle to protect Nesmé refugees from relentless drow-led trolls (The Two Swords).
(The above confusion was later clarified by making Dagna the father, and Dagnabbit {new spelling} the son {The Thousand Orcs; The Lone Drow}. 'Twould appear that General Dagnabit/Dagnabbit was indeed the one who helped to re-take Mithral Hall; but General Dagna, being the elder, was appointed to the formal position of commander of King Bruenor's military forces.)
High Cleric of the Halls Stumpet Rakingclaw - Citadel Adbar, then Mithral Hall, then Icewind Dale - Battle of Keeper's Dale (Siege of Darkness).
Warlord/General Banak Brawnanvil - Icewind Dale, then Mithral Hall - Battle to delay invading orcs along the northern plateau overlooking Keeper's Dale (The Lone Drow). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 11:33:47
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Good list, Beast. 
The dwarven measure for success in battle seems to be raw body-count. No valiant last stand is a failure if the dwarf fells dozens and dozens of worthy foes before being overrun. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 16:01:55
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Tom Costa sorted out Obould in an old WotC website article titled "THe Hunter's Blades Trilogy: A History of Many Arrows". That article relevantly said:
Unfortunately, the mountain orcs of the Ice Mountains had other ideas. The humans were under attack from their first day in the Citadel. Some fifty years later in 1104 DR, an orc horde came down from Dead Orc Pass in such numbers that it simply overwhelmed the defenders. Heedless of losses on both sides, the Battle of Many Arrows lasted for more than four months. It ended with the fall of Citadel Felbarr and outright slaughter of the remaining garrisons. Some 40,000 orcs crammed into the fortified city, renamed the Citadel of Many Arrows, which now stood as an example of how orcs could conquer the weaker folk of the south.
One survivor, a wizard who fled by teleport, said the orcs simply "hurled themselves at the walls. We slew them with arrows. . . . The sky rained arrows, with orcs packed so close together that no shaft could miss. But the time came when all our arrows and spells were gone. By then, there were so many dead orcs that the living ones just piled them up against our walls in a heap. It was so high that they could climb it like a mountain and walk in over our battlements. The end wasn't long in coming, then."
Since that day of slaughter, known as the Battle of Many Arrows, orcs have ruled the city. After much bloodletting, Obould, an enormous, bald-headed orc said to be as tall as any two orc warriors (perhaps due to some giantish blood), proclaimed himself King Obould I of the Many-Arrows. The first of his line, Obould still pledged allegiance to the orc kings of the Ice Mountains that had supported him. Obould held his throne largely because he seemed immune to any poisons his rivals could get hold of and also because he shrewdly entered alliances with evil human mages and mind flayers of the Underdark. However, the king was careful to devoutly obey the demands of his shamans so he couldn't be accused of turning from the gods to embrace the magic of outsiders.
For the next 250 years, a long line of orc monarchs ruled the Citadel, pillaging their neighbors and providing a relative safe haven for the orc kin of the Savage Frontier. In turn each king paid some sort of tribute to the orc kings of the Ice Mountains. However, as the Citadel stabilized and became a power in its own right, such fealty became little more than an exchange of gifts and kept promises of continued trade relations.
The Fall of the Citadel of Many Arrows
The current Obould Many-Arrows is descended from the first orc to hold that name and seize the Citadel of Many Arrows. From a young age, the adepts of the Citadel noted Obould was fated for a great destiny among his people. Smarter and more intuitive than most of his kind, he completed quests for his father (and king) and for his tribe's clerics before slaying his father and taking control of his tribe. He faced challengers without suffering injuries amounting to more than some attractive scarring. Skilled in the arts of war and capable of fierce rages, Obould became a fearsome opponent in battle. Obould now has four wives (and at least one mistress, the assassin Numath the Serpent) and eight sons, including his heir Urlgen Threefist, the ambitious Scrauth, the cleric Brymoel, and the ferocious Ugreth. He expects the time will come soon enough when he must fight his upstart children to defend his throne, and he is ready for it.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 16:14:15
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I seem to recall there was a thread a while back about the various Oboulds from history, with confusion circulating around the so-called "Obould" (of 1370s fame) but the "current" Obould XVII (of the 1480s era). In fact . . .
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14875
Tangent from the OP, about Generals of the Realms. Sorry about that!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 27 Mar 2012 16:28:27 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 16:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Good list, Beast.
The dwarven measure for success in battle seems to be raw body-count. No valiant last stand is a failure if the dwarf fells dozens and dozens of worthy foes before being overrun.
Well then, by that measure, all of them dwarfs'd be right proper generals, no doubt.
Only the wee one, Regis, should be questioned, as he felled few, in his day. He was more of an administrator, than general, I s'pose.
King Obould's apparent mastery of mistaken identity in his political propaganda might be enough to make him qualify as a very effective general, regardless of his massive body-count. He won the battle for his troops' hearts and minds, which is the true measure of a leader. Body-count is more of a measure of a warrior-technician, while finding ways to inspire others to up their count is more of a measure of a leader.
Seen in that light, then maybe Steward Regis would qualify, as well, after all. He surely inspired his troops in largescale battles, in two different eras. He was even promoted to steward over the likes of Generals Dagna, Dagnabbit, and Banak.
And thanks for a reminder about that old article, George. I had completely forgotten about that! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 27 Mar 2012 16:57:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 17:33:16
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| Wasn't Regis a halfling? Able to hold his mead well enough I suppose, but not a true dwarf! |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 17:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Wasn't Regis a halfling? Able to hold his mead well enough I suppose, but not a true dwarf!
Aye, not a dwarf, but perhaps a general of sorts, just the same.
(I am reminded of Adam Sandler's "Happy Hannukah" song, in which he sung of O.J. Simpson, "NOT a Jew!") |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 11:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
[quote]Originally posted by Thauranil
I believe that Eldrith the Betrayer was once considered to be among the greatest generals of her age ,before her fall from grace of course.
Where is this figure from?
____
Eldrith The Betrayer is the main villain in the video game Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance. She was a general in the city of well Baldurs Gate and never lost a battle. Until the day her pride lead her to attack the Black horde against the express command of the Grand dukes. However she failed to win this final battle as the Dukes refused to provide her with any reinforcements. Enraged by the 'treachery' she attacked the city herself but lost yet again and perished in the Marsh of Chelimber only to rise again in undeath. Until you slay her again that is. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2012 : 14:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Wasn't Regis a halfling? Able to hold his mead well enough I suppose, but not a true dwarf!
Aye, not a dwarf, but perhaps a general of sorts, just the same.
-Like Cattie-Brie, by virtue of time spent among their kind and positions held within their society, Regis more than qualifies as an 'honorary Dwarf'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2012 : 16:47:20
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How about Khelben? He was like the unofficial general in Return of the Archwizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 13:33:48
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Indeed. In Return of the Archwizards, Khelben and Laeral performed so badly as generals that one must either approach the trilogy with the mindset that they were deliberately trying to get elves and humans killed for some nefarious goal of their own or lose all respect for their intellectual abilities.
A man who uses a magical portal to keep his pantry cold* made the decision to march an army over difficult terrain for months when reinforcing the elves immediately was militarily vital. One of the worst examples I can name of characters 'conveniently' forgetting abilities that they demonstratably have in order to adjust to the story the author wants.
I'm not going to demand that just because the Chosen live for centuries they be experts at everything. On the other hand, a pretty good working definition for wisdom is knowing when one doesn't know something. If Khelben didn't even have the first idea about military logistics and strategy, he should have turned to someone who did and had him command. And passed on such vital information as 'Oh, by the way, physical distance is fairly meaningless to me, because I know untold secrets of magical portways through the cosmos.'
*And who knew enough about portals to elven realms to be able to reverse engineer one and have his less puissant nephew cast the spell that moved the terminus. Just repeating that process and moving the elfgate again to Everaska would have been enough to save hundreds and even thousands of lives. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 18:06:58
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So ... you're suggesting Khelben should've marched his army through the cold portal he normally keeps in his pantry?
It's magic. For all we know Khelben's refrigerated pantry required a lot of research, some exotic components, and months of effort to produce, just like any other magical construct. Or he might have simply cast a cold spell not unlike continual light with an indefinite duration, easy to use but limited in actual application.
Perhaps Khelben deliberately chose a non-magical method of approach because he was convinced the phaerimm could detect, block, or even control local magical mass-transport methods. Teleporting your entire army single file into a phaerimm ambush is something best avoided. But hey, it might work - Heroes in that trilogy can use teleport as the ultimate sneak-stealth-attack form, while teleported Villains are always disoriented and stunned enough on arrival that the Heroes can get a free shot or two.
I agree that Khelben (and everybody else) really sucked in that trilogy, but I don't put the blame for the suck directly onto Khelben - I put it on the trilogy he was forced to march through. Troy Denning has written some great stuff, but Return of the Archwizards was a definite fail, boldly emblazoning an FR logo upon the cover doesn't make it well written.
Bad stories just mean bad generals poorly fighting useless battles against even worse opponents. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2012 18:12:36 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 18:07:50
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| Khelben led the successful defense of Waterdeep against the sahuagin |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 18:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree that Khelben (and everybody else) really sucked in that trilogy, but I don't put the blame for the suck directly onto Khelben - I put it on the trilogy he was forced to march through. Troy Denning has written some great stuff, but Return of the Archwizards was a definite fail, boldly emblazoning an FR logo upon the cover doesn't make it well written.
Bad stories just mean bad generals poorly fighting useless battles against even worse opponents.
I have to agree. One of the reasons I so dislike that trilogy is because any non-Denning character came across as foolish, incompetent, or both, despite all the source material and novels that say otherwise. The established FR characters he used in that trilogy were very badly mischaracterized. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2012 : 18:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So ... you're suggesting Khelben should've marched his army through the cold portal he normally keeps in his pantry?
No. I was pointing out that among the dozens of portals he has in his tower, many of them appear to be cheap, safe and reliable enough to use for utterly mundane things. He uses them for cooling stuff, he uses others for short vacations, others for getting around to a few favourite places.
It was meant to demonstrate how weird it was that suddenly, Khelben did not know of any portals relevant to travelling to Everaska from Waterdeep or any way to change one so that it was useful for such a trip.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's magic. For all we know Khelben's refrigerated pantry required a lot of research, some exotic components, and months of effort to produce, just like any other magical construct. Or he might have simply cast a cold spell not unlike continual light with an indefinite duration, easy to use but limited in actual application.
It is canonically described as a portal, not a cooling effect.
And while I agree that any portal might be expensive and take months to make, I think that the expense would have been worth it, judging by the casualties suffered by the Waterdeep forces while marching for all those months. And that's if he decided to make a new permanent portal.
If he simply did as less powerful mages have done previously in Realmslore and what he himself has done multiple times in prior Realmslore and used his magic to find a suitable portal or to adjust the terminus of one for a few days, it would have taken between hours and days. And that's assuming that he didn't already know of a portal, which, frankly, would be illogical. There are portals that go from Waterdeep to much closer to Everaska than Waterdeep is, even if none go directly there. Are we supposed to believe that Khelben does not know about them, where he has previously been shown to be very effective at gathering information and extremely interested in anything that affects Waterdeep's security in the way that portals there do.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Perhaps Khelben deliberately chose a non-magical method of approach because he was convinced the phaerimm could detect, block, or even control local magical mass-transport methods. Teleporting your entire army single file into a phaerimm ambush is something best avoided. But hey, it might work - Heroes in that trilogy can use teleport as the ultimate sneak-stealth-attack form, while teleported Villains are always disoriented and stunned enough on arrival that the Heroes can get a free shot or two.
Using a non-magical method of transport meant that the phaerimm had time to detect his slow-moving army, ambush it multiple times, kill staggering numbers of people and get repeated chances of taking Everaska before it ever arrived. How could it possibly have been less safe to transport the army between Waterdeep and into the heart of the elven defences?
That was a risk only if the phaerimm were so much more magically powerful than the 'good guys' that they were better at controlling or blocking portals on Khelben's home ground (and whatever area of Evaraska was the safest), which they had no way of visiting for aeons, during a time of his choosing, while all of his allies, even ones not prepared to spend months on the war, could help him. Which would also have meant that the army he was sending was useless anyway.
Khelben chose a strategy that carefully maximised the strength of the enemy and avoided using any of his own. That it did not result in a complete defeat was due to actions of other characters that he had no way to predict, unless he is omniscient. If he did know about everything that was happening and still did this, he's a worse enemy of Everaska and Waterdeep than the phaerimm.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Bad stories just mean bad generals poorly fighting useless battles against even worse opponents.
I agree that the RotA is a terrible trilogy and I wish it were not canon. But it is and it portrays Laeral and Khelben as terrible at strategy.
The only other time I recall a canonical appearance of Khelben as a general, it was during the sahuagin war. The city was woefully unprepared, the defences were almost useless against the threat and the fighting developed into isolated skirmishes where the commander had no control over what happened.
Waterdeep 'won', but that was due to a massive advantage in numbers, magic and weapons, not generalship. The sahuagin inflicted damage out of all proportion to their military capabilities, mostly because the city had no effective defences against them. As one of Waterdeep's political rulers as well as the general in command, responsibility for the failure to adequately prepare for the threat must fall on Khelben, at least partially. He did not warn anyone soon enough and he did not prepare the city in any way for the possibility of a large-scale undersea attack even in the absence of direct threats*.
From all appearances, he allowed the sahuagin to gain not only strategic surprise, but operational and even tactical surprise. He did not appear to have a staff and his methods of coordinating the forces under his command were primitive and ultimately proved insufficient. He did not deploy for any kind of defence in depth, he failed to anticipate less than perfect success and he did not have any idea where reserves were and how he would deploy them.
Khelben may have served as a general in Realmslore. He has never shown any aptitude for the job in anything I've read.
*The existence of a capability to do so on the part of unfriendly powers ought to have been reason enough to build defences with it in mind, not to mention establish procedures for dealing with it and training men in doing so. |
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Great Generals of the Realms
