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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 19:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
In the original Draconomicon of 2e origin (a purely FR tome!) we have a list of draconic deities which features Lendys (a god of unbending justice without mercy), Tamara his consort (the god of mercy and compassion, trying to balance her consort), and their offspring Xymor (the god of enlightened justice combining the aspects of his parents). He’s got the epithet “Justicemaker”. All three are part of the Ptarian Code of honor up to this day.
Further there is list of specific dragons of the Realms in this old tome, containing Bahamut as unique Platinum dragon. The lore states that it is not clear if he is a deity of his own right, an avatar of some greater deity or a mortal worshipped by other mortals. Legends claims he has existed from the first day that dragons appeared on Abeir-Toril and that he is the king of all good dragons, and most sages in that days seem to think of him as “archetype of all good dragonkind”. All of that is said of Tiamat who immediately follows him in the list, she is presented as archetype of evil dragonkind.
Now in Dragons of Faerun (3e) Xymor and Bahamut are revealed to be one and the same, sharing their epithets and explicitly identified in the chapter containing the Ptarian Code where the line containing the three deities features the last one as “Xymor (Bahamut)”.
So in the days before the dracorage mythal was destroyed, the status or character of the Lord of the North Wind was unclear and mysterious. Then sages gained some new insight and discovered the true identity of the Justice Maker. Maybe because of his imprisonment the Lord of the North wind was forced to work through aliases like Xymor or Marduk as a way to circumvent his bonds.
Reading this, I can see it in another way:
Bahamut, the unique platinum dragon, was but an aspect of the deity Xymor, with powers lessened after the Dracorage Mythal affair. In the old Draconomicon, it is supposed that the dragon deities were virtually powerless because they were not worshipped anymore - and forgotten from most dragons - after the Dracowars, religious wars of the past. But maybe the dragons stopped worshipping them after their deities could not answer their prayers, after the Mythal's rising. When the effects of the Mythal were nullified, the aspect could resume his deific powers, but as the name "Xymor" was almost forgotten in the past, and to its new worshippers the apotheosis looked simply like the ascension of the (unique) platinum dragon as a god, Xymor preferred to adopt the "new" name for once.
In other way, according to the Candlekeep Compendium VI, Bahamut was the mortal (but extremely powerful, like a demigod or celestial paragon) son of Xymor. An alternative explanation would be that this is true, and Bahamut kept the essence of Xymor after his death, and could "release" it after the end of the Mythal effects (just like Midnight turned into Mystra after the Time of Troubles).
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 19 Oct 2010 19:30:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 21:36:58
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And I have already espoused the theory elsewhere that the 'offspring' of a god is exactly the same as a self-aware avatar (called a manifestation).
Gods do not 'have sex' when they procreate. In fact, there is actually a physical description of how gods 'mate' (two different gods with one goddess!) in that short story about Ulutiu written by Troy Denning. Physical contact isn't even necessary, just an exchange of energy.
More powerful divine beings can even create a new being without the help of another being, although this is rare in mythology (I assume it requires a much greater sacrifice of power).
Ergo, gods create other beings spontaneously, and occasionally all by themselves. Gods also create avatars, and can create permanent avatars by sacrificing a bit of their power (that from the 3e DD). Most of the time they create these avatars alone, and they are still 'bound' to the creating god. There is a precedent of gods creating avatars together - we just call them 'tripatriate deities', or some-such, and their are several canon examples of that as well.
When a god bestows self-awareness (and therefor self-direction) upon one of its avatars, it is a Manifestation*, and is considered a separate being for all intents and purposes. Of course, like all other beings in the universe, these things can be re-absorbed, and not necessarily by the power that created them. There are tons of canon examples of divine beings absorbing other beings, and of divine beings allowing other beings to absorb a partial amount of themselves (Chosen).
So when a god** has a child, just exactly what is the difference between a 'child', and a Manifestation (self-governing Avatar)?
They are precisely the same thing in the divine scheme of things. Ergo, the lore concerning Xymor and its offspring Bahamut in the all sources is saying the same thing - its just different (mortal) ways of looking at it.
And strangely, when I think more on this, I realize that most of the draconic pantheon would be Ordials in my cosmic scheme, and not Drækons (Elder Gods). Io was a Drækon, but his 'children' would not be. That means Lendys and Tamara are draconic Ordials, and Xymor is a deity (which fits).
Making Bahamut an Exarch, which also fits. 
Marduk was merely another Exarch of Xymor from a different world, which had grown-apart from its parent-god, and then created a Manifestation to travel to Toril with the rest of the Pharonic Pantheon. Upon arrival, Bahamut and Marduk realized they were both aspects of Xymor and merged (thus making 'it' more powerful). Both had taken on the physical appearance most-acceptable by their faithful (in Earth's sphere dragons are no longer evident, and therefor Xymor/Marduk had lost all draconic worshipers and relied on human ones).
I like the conjecture about the draconic gods being forgotten by their dragon-worshipers because of the problems created by the Godwall. However, I think this would go back a bit further, and I would blame it on the first 'wall' erected by Ao after the War of Light and Darkness. If most of the draconic powers are Ordials (as I theorize), then it makes sense they would have been blocked from Toril (but NOT from Abier).
Which comes full-circle, now that I think about it... that's where dragonborn are from! 
*Manifestation, not to be confused with a manifestation, which is just a small physical demonstration of a god's power, usually to impress mortals.
**And by god I mean "any being above the level of mortal", which includes deities, primordials, exarchs, etc. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2010 22:18:19 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 16:58:22
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bahamut religion popular in Bloodstone region
here are some canon sources with Bahamut
RotP = Road of the Patriarch
DoF = Dragons of Faerun
PaP = Powers and Pantheons
FR9 = Bloodstone Lands
H4 = Throne of Bloodstone
White Tree [gift from the deity Bahamut to Gareth] – located in the Grand Garden on the shore of Lake Midai (RotP p25-26) 30 feet tall, branches used by Gareth and friends to make items of power from its magical wood (RotP p26) ward against creatures from the Abyss being able to walk on the land of the Bloodstone Lands (RotP p25)
Talons of Justice serve Bahamut (DoF p100)
3. Bahamut (PaP p133) (FR9 p6,37) (H4 p30,53,80-81) (DoF p8-10) (RotP p26)
a. Directed and teleported a group of Damaran heroes to Tiamat’s Lair (PaP p133) (H4 p80-81) (DoF p9)
b. The mortals, led by Gareth, destroyed Tiamat’s avatar (PaP p133) (DoF p9)
c. Told adventurers of the artifact called the Tree-Gem that was created from the destruction of the Wand of Orcus – once planted at Gareth’s coronation, it grew into a beautiful white tree which forever banishes Orcus and other abyssal creatures from the Bloodstone Lands as long as the country and its rulers align with the cause of good (FR9 p6,37) (H4 p81,82) (DoF p9) (RotP p25-26)
d. Power has grown to the rank of Lesser deity as the planting of the Tree-gem in Damara renewed interest among nondragon races in his teachings (DoF p9)
e. Church of Tiamat and the Church of Bahamut followers race to seek out impact points of lightning strikes and gather eggs (DoF p10)
f. Church of Bahamut rituals – Call of Bahamut, Rite of Rebirth (DoF p9)
g. Becoming Platinum Knights or Vassals of Bahamut (DoF p9)
‘Bahamut’s Quest’ (H4 p83)
Vassals of Bahamut (DoF p9)
Gareth and friends stole Orcus’ Wand and delivered it to Bahamut (FR9 p6) (DoF p9)
Bahamut instructed them to dip the wand in Tiamat’s blood (DoF p9)
Frequent visits from the Undying Queen, dispatched to Castle Perilous in response to Bahamut planting the Tree-Gem (PaP p136) (DoF p9) |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 16:59:38
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The Talons of Justice serve Bahamut (Metallic Dragon Knights) (DoF)
Grandmaster Kane prays to Bahamut (Road of the Patriarch) |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Bahamut's presence in the Realms, or lack thereof
