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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 21:08:09
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Pretty much what it says on the scroll case. Tiamat has a fairly well established (if minor) place in realmslore, but what about her brother? He's part of the 4e main pantheon, but not a lot's said about him in the post-plague realms (AFAIK). I'm interested in any lore that might be wafting about, not necessarily just 4e lore.
I had a fairly loony idea for a high level adventure arc where the PCs must 'reforge' Io by mystically mooshing Bahamut and Tiamat back together (see 4e Draconomicon I re: Io, etc) in order to help fight off some cataclysmic evil, and I'd rather like to Realmsify it all.
Hell, may as well make the ghost of Mystra the glue to stick the two dragons together and make Io Reborn the new god of magic while I'm at it. 
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Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 23:46:29
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| Bahumat has no true presence in the Realms because he was imprisoned by the elves related to the Dracorage Mythal...something like that. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 03:54:08
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I was going to go all out and dig up all the references to Bahamut's death in his personificationas Marduk...but I got lazy and googled it instead.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut
The wiki also lists original source material so you should be set. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
Edited by - Ionik Knight on 07 Sep 2010 03:54:32 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 06:41:11
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Also check out this article excerpted from the Dragons of Faerûn sourcebook, which relates an overview of draconic history, including details regarding Bahamut and his ongoing fight with Tiamat:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802b |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 11:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
Ooo, cheers for the goodies!
Also, Tymora's Luck? Never heard of it! What/who am I inadvertently ripping off now? :)
Part of the plot of the book is (spoiler)reuniting Beshaba and Tymora into Tyche.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 11:30:48
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Besides Dragons of Faerun, more information on the Lord of the Northwind can be gleaned from Races of the Dragon and the Manual of the Planes (unspecific to the FR). The Player's Guide to Faerun translates the lore of these tomes into FR-Lore (in concert with Dragons of Faerun).
Edit: Spelling. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 08 Sep 2010 16:10:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 21:12:40
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I tied Tiamet (Leviathan) and Bahamut (Behemoth) to Jazirian and Ahriman, in a round-about fashion, in my over-cosmology.
Created by Io (The Balance) as a counter to those two original draconic powers, they were tasked by Cthon to infiltrate the world and destroy the great Wheel (thus ending the universe, or so Cthon thought). They managed to destroy Ymir (who reprsented the Physical matter), but were stopped before they could destroy the Great Wheel.
Given a choice between obliteration by 'the powers on-high' and turning forever from chaos, they chose the latter, and were greatly reduced in power (to the level of Primordials) in the aftermath. Tiamet decided to stay in hell and learn at Ahriman's feet, while Bahamut roamed the cosmos, attempting to restore order among the myriad bits (Spheres) that Ymir's body had fragmented into.
Thats how I worked them in - I like that there were four Uber-dragons that represented the four main 'compass-points' of alignment, but I had to work-around the fact they had the exact same aligments as the 'first dragons'. I could have said they were the same beings, or even that Tiamet and Bahamut were Avatars of Ahriman and Jazirian, but I did not want to give them that much importance to the Great Wheel itself.
Then again, if those two Elder powers were still trapped in the wheel, it would make some sense that they would 'spin-off' Avatars to do their bidding.
Still not 100% happy with or sure about this part... it seems a little weak compared to most of the other stuff I have worked-in. I'm probably going to re-work my cosmology soon. Thinking maybe Io (representing the force of 'Balance' in the universe) might have created them as replacements for the first two, who are now trapped within a prison of their own design. Thinking more on Gray's 'Wheel as a Soul-machine' theory, and other stuff brought up recently, I'll most-likely rebuild a portion of it it, at any rate. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 00:45:40
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So...wait a second.
Looking at the Grand History of the Realms it says specifically that Bahamut was imprisoned and not released until the Dracorage Mythal was dismantled after it was tampered with.
Is this not right? Was he NOT imprisoned as it says? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 10:33:50
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Also check FOR1 Draconomicon and Cult of the Dragon book (Xymor).
To make Io reborn, I think it takes nine parts (aka the Ninefold Dragon), including Null.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I tied Tiamet (Leviathan) and Bahamut (Behemoth) to Jazirian and Ahriman, in a round-about fashion, in my over-cosmology.
I had similar, Leviathan is a spawn of Tiamat, beside other monstrous serpents, dragons, tlincallis ... |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 10:51:35
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Right, so there's enough lore to keep me geeking out for quite some time, cheers! :)
Also, Markus, diggin the home-brew there, good stuff.
For the purposes of the hypothetical adventure arc, however, I think I'll smooshing two uber-dragons will be sufficient, nine might be a bit TOO loony! I shall do a bit of reading and report back if I come up with anything interesting. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 16:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
So...wait a second.
Looking at the Grand History of the Realms it says specifically that Bahamut was imprisoned and not released until the Dracorage Mythal was dismantled after it was tampered with.
Is this not right? Was he NOT imprisoned as it says?
See this scroll, where the imprisonment of the Justicemaker is discussed. Apparently this entry in GHotR has no further backing by other sources. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 08 Sep 2010 16:42:41 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 17:44:23
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| Y'know, I never really did more than flick through my copy of Dragons of Faerun to pick out the odd bit or bob, but now I'm giving it a proper close reading and it's brilliant! If you haven't read your copy in a while, I recommend sticking your nose back into it when you next have a spare moment. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 17:59:09
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I think the link on Bahamut sets the matter for the new edition. About Bahamut's imprisonment, maybe it would be about Bahamut's limitation on being not a full deity.
"The destruction of the Dracorage mythal also heralded the prophesized 'Turning of the Great Cycle' which has sparked off the religious fervor lacking in dragons since the beginning of the Dragonfall War"
Maybe this change has returned him to deity status, "freeing him" from an unseen prison. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 00:07:12
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There does seem to be an over-abundance of dragon-ruled states in the 4e realms (both to the far west and far east), so it seems there was some thought about making dragons even more prominent in the new edition (probably do to the presence of the dragonborn). The 'religious fervor' entry may have been something they were planning on eventually using to further their goals in this area.
I seem to recall at least one very early podcast revolving around bringing the game back to it's 'roots' - Dungeons, and Dragons. The quickie-modules (lackluster dungeon-crawls, really) came out at the beginning - I have no idea whats been released in the past year and a half - so I would hazard to guess that was one of their main focuses with 4e - to have lots of 'Draconic' stuff, and plenty of 1e-feel style dungeons (and they may have gotten the idea from that company that was doing 'Dungeon Crawl Classics').
Also take into account the new boxed set and its retro art - I think they are still trying to go this route. The streamlined rules do harken back to an earlier time.
Anyhow, I'm rambling... suffice it to say they appear to have had a plan, but god only knows if they are still trying to stick by it, or are improvising 'on the fly' these days. We may never know why they included that bit about Bahamut in the GHotR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 10:13:09
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| I was wondering wtf were they thinking with the ''return to the roots'' gimmick, as if the game did not evolve since then, they needed to return those generic, anorexic modules. That is why 4e monster books are so hack and slash inspiring. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 11:44:04
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All I know is that in 1e Bahamut and Tiamat were powerful "rulers of all dragons", the first being the king of the good metallics and the later the queen of the evil chromatics.
In the second edition, they briefly kept a mistery about them being or not gods for a time (see Draconomicon 2e, a FR supplement), but later the version of them being gods was canonized (since the generic Monster Mythology, then expanded onto other sources).
The entries in GHotR seemed to be somehow in concern with the Candlekeep Compendium IV, in the "Reign of Dragons" article (Written by the same Brian James). This unofficial lore brings back the question about the divinity of these ultimate dragons, turning Tiamat into a fallen deity, stripped of her powers by the other gods after killing her brother, and revealing Bahamut would be an almost divine being, somehow like a "Chosen of Xymor".
Anyway, it brings back the concept that they are - or were, until they ascend to true divinity - something close to deities, and overpowerful dragons. Good for epic dungeon-crawling, I think!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 09 Sep 2010 11:47:53 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 11:44:18
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Thank you, Quale, for your in insightful and entirely relevant post...
EDIT: Yes, I rather like the idea that they may be less straight-up deities like the human gods, and more like supreme progenitors of dragon-kind. The vague bits in lore are always fun to flail around in. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 09 Sep 2010 11:47:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 12:52:34
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Maybe it was something like the Imaskari... Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut were always gods, but an aspect of the Dracorage Mythal was to block their full entry into Realmspace. Maybe Tiamat, being the untrustworthy sort, found a way around that, but Bahamut, being a straight-up guy, chose to honor some agreement and not try to get past the barrier. And then, with the fall of the Mythal, the barrier was gone and he could return.
You could spin the whole thing a bit further and say that there was at least one disguised dragon involved in the raising of the mythal. Realizing that his kind had to change, this dragon thought that raising the mythal would in the long run preserve his people. Maybe he was misguided, maybe he was misled by the elves... |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 13:27:51
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OBefore the boom of draconic religiousness, during early 3.5e days, Bahamut was a celestial paragon, like Morwel or Talisid (check PGtF I think). It's traditional for Tiamat and Bahamut to die and resurrect, rise and fall in power all the time, in some cultures every year. They are Chauntea and Lathander/Amaunator from a draconic/Untheric point of view (heresy).  |
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Ralderick Hallowshaw
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 18:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
more information on the Lord of the Northwind can be gleaned from Races of the Dragon
Can these informations be considered canon?
I ask because it seems to me that the "cultural" parts (society, habits...) don't fit very well to the FR setting.
Another question: did dragonborn (and, related to them, Spawns of Tiamat) appeared only after the Turning of the Great Cycle or were there also before this event?
I hope I'm not OT... |
"Adventurers are best used to slay monsters. Sooner or later, they become your worst monsters, and you have to hire new ones to do the obvious thing" - Ralderick Hallowshaw, Jester - from To Rule A Realm, From Turret To Midden, published circa The Year of the Bloodbird
And forgive me for my bad use of English language!  |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 21:01:49
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| Not at all. Dragons of Faerun incorporates the ideas from Races of the Dragon into the FR. There it is also stated that with the planting of the Tree-Gem in Damara by Gareth Dragonsbane renewed interest in the teachings of the Justicemaker sparked among the non-dragon races. Many became Platinum Knights (-> Draconomicon), Vassals of Bahamut (-> Book of Exalted Deeds), and some even heard - for the first time in centuries - the call to go undergo the Rite of Rebirth, and they became Dragonborn. In reaction to this Tiamat started her breeding program which led to the appearance of her Spawn. This happened after the year 1359, more then ten years before the Year of Rogue Dragons. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 21:32:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it was something like the Imaskari... Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut were always gods, but an aspect of the Dracorage Mythal was to block their full entry into Realmspace. Maybe Tiamat, being the untrustworthy sort, found a way around that, but Bahamut, being a straight-up guy, chose to honor some agreement and not try to get past the barrier. And then, with the fall of the Mythal, the barrier was gone and he could return.
Why separate it at all?
Blame it on the Imaskari - it would be the simpliest route. The Untheric Pantheon is the combined Sumerian/Babylonian one, and since the Godwall was designed to keep out 'Mulan Gods', both Tiamet and Bahamut would have been included. Marduk may heave been an anthropomorphic avatar/aspect of Bahamut, and the one he preferred to use when he traveled to Realmspace with the rest of the Untheric deities.
On the other hand, Tiamet would not have been welcome to go with those others, and would have been forced to find her own way in - perhaps as a bit of divine essence placed within a mortal dragon-manifestation (one of those things ALL Mulan gods had to create at first). Since Drgaons would have been aware of those two draconic deities, it stands to reason that would have been the route Tiamet may have used.
Still not near my sources - could it have been possible she came over from Orcspace through the Dark Portal with the Orcish pantheon?
Which now has me thinking about that incident - the Orcgate War - and other threads and deific lore. What if Orcs did not revere the Orcish pantheon until after that war? Is there any canon saying that the Orc gods were worshipped on Toril prior to that?
If not, it would be good fodder for our musings about the fey pantheon and Malar, amongst other things. Perhaps Malar is the Orcish equivalent of Herne, and his presence in the Realms also dates to the time of that war. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 02:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it was something like the Imaskari... Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut were always gods, but an aspect of the Dracorage Mythal was to block their full entry into Realmspace. Maybe Tiamat, being the untrustworthy sort, found a way around that, but Bahamut, being a straight-up guy, chose to honor some agreement and not try to get past the barrier. And then, with the fall of the Mythal, the barrier was gone and he could return.
Why separate it at all?
Blame it on the Imaskari - it would be the simpliest route. (snip)
I see it as six of one, half a dozen of another. Yeah, the Imaskari blocked out deities -- but the elves did something to affect the dragons of the world. Putting a kind of barrier on draconic deities, as part of the Dracorage Mythal, could keep those gods from working against or countering the mythal.
Besides, while Tiamat and Bahamut do have human followers, the fact remains that they are draconic deities. I don't see the Imaskari worrying about the dragon gods, overmuch. That, too, is a reason I favor the Dracorage Mythal being to blame. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 06:12:43
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We could even go so far as to say that the Imaskari copied the workings of the Elves with their blocking of deities...with the elves having done it to the Dragon Gods first.
I really like the idea that orcs in Faerun didn't have the Orcish Pantheon until after the Orcgate Wars...I really like that.
That could explain why the Orcs of the High Forest were worshiping Herne to start with...they were never converted. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2010 : 02:43:16
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I have conjectured in the past that the imaskari had somehow used the Weave itself to block the deities. Every world has some sort of 'rules set' regarding what is allowed within the sphere, not only technologically and magically, but also in regards to how deities may come and go, and in Realmspace this 'rules set' is known as 'The Weave'. Dimensions/planes have similar rules and restrictions, which also affect physical laws and time.
So the Weave - a set of rules pertaining to the Realmspace sphere - was somehow 'twisted' so that the Mulan deities could not enter Realmspace. Ao controls the sphere and the rules, and normally he has the ability to allow or block gods, but back at the time of Imaskar, Mystra's ban on super-magic (level 9+ spells) did not exist, so the Imaskari may have found a way to affect the sphere and weave itself (tampering with Ao's portfolio in the process).
So the ban on 9+ spells may have been just as much Ao's doing as Mystra's - he may have ordered it. Then for whatever reason, he left the Godwall in-place within the Weave until the ToT.
Which means NO deities should have been able to travel directly to Toril while it was in-place; given the multi-spheric nature of many pantheons, and even the multi-pantheonic nature of many gods themselves (Tiamet and Bahamut are part of two, for instance),it would make sense if the Godwall was all-encompassing, and NOT pantheon-specific.
I'm not sure if that steps on any canon - any 'visitations' by gods in the Realms during that time period would have most likely been just manifestations of their power. Any 'personal appearance' probably required the deity to transport the mortal being to their own realm, or some neutral plane.
And all of this could explain why the power of Toril's gods, for the longest time, was NOT tied to their worshipers, unlike nearly every other world, until after the ToT. Ao would have had to make some sort of allowance for the lack of direct contact with the realms, and may have waved the normal restrictions regarding followers (until after the ToT, when he put things back to how they should have been all along).
Just a theory, mind you - nothing at all canon about that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2010 02:57:59 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 09:53:25
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Maybe we have to consider the whole affair from a completely different angle. I just stumbled over it when I reread some of the older tomes of lore.
In the original Draconomicon of 2e origin (a purely FR tome!) we have a list of draconic deities which features Lendys (a god of unbending justice without mercy), Tamara his consort (the god of mercy and compassion, trying to balance her consort), and their offspring Xymor (the god of enlightened justice combining the aspects of his parents). He’s got the epithet “Justicemaker”. All three are part of the Ptarian Code of honor up to this day.
Further there is list of specific dragons of the Realms in this old tome, containing Bahamut as unique Platinum dragon. The lore states that it is not clear if he is a deity of his own right, an avatar of some greater deity or a mortal worshipped by other mortals. Legends claims he has existed from the first day that dragons appeared on Abeir-Toril and that he is the king of all good dragons, and most sages in that days seem to think of him as “archetype of all good dragonkind”. All of that is said of Tiamat who immediately follows him in the list, she is presented as archetype of evil dragonkind.
Now in Dragons of Faerun (3e) Xymor and Bahamut are revealed to be one and the same, sharing their epithets and explicitly identified in the chapter containing the Ptarian Code where the line containing the three deities features the last one as “Xymor (Bahamut)”.
So in the days before the dracorage mythal was destroyed, the status or character of the Lord of the North Wind was unclear and mysterious. Then sages gained some new insight and discovered the true identity of the Justice Maker. Maybe because of his imprisonment the Lord of the North wind was forced to work through aliases like Xymor or Marduk as a way to circumvent his bonds. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 12 Sep 2010 20:59:28 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 19:07:05
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On a related note to recent discussion, which published sources have the best lore regarding the Imaskari, the barrier, and the Orcgate Wars? By "published" I don't mean necessarily by TSR/WotC/Wizbro; anything assembled by a fellow scribe (Snowblood comes to mind, among others like Markustay) is welcome as well, as long as it's reasonably consistent with previous canon. (And yes, I know that 100% consistency is impossible these days...)
Thanks in advance! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 12 Sep 2010 19:08:07 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 19:18:33
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| Did you already consider this pergament from the shelves of this very halls? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Bahamut's presence in the Realms, or lack thereof
