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Tremaine
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 12:01:48
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This is maybe going to sound odd but I've just started reading Mistshore and I'm enjoying the story but I do have a slight irritation with a four letter word appearing in this novel especially at the start when nearly all the characters are saying it including the Hero and seems to appear on every other page, now I can just about handle it if comes from an old wizard or Dwarves but when it said by anyone else it just jars me out the story right away, yes the word LASS bugs me no end. I prefer girl over lass any day of the week (no dirty thoughts please)
Question for others here, Do any words or phrases throw you off a story? i read a fantasy novel once where a character was "fiddling with her bangs in her room" before meeting someone (I thought what the hell are bangs it sounded a bit rude to me??? later learnt it was an American term for hair I think) that throw me totally out of the story
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 13:35:03
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| Not so much any words, as a manner of speaking, in Lady of Poison it felt as if the dialogue could have been written down during someone's gaming session and the hero would call his mystic foreigner sidekick "dude" or "bro" any minute. Also, words that don't fit the setting, like, I don't know, "french window" in a fantay setting. Lass is okay, though, the first book I read in English was James Clavell's Gai-Jin, and his scots liked that word. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 14:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Not so much any words, as a manner of speaking, in Lady of Poison it felt as if the dialogue could have been written down during someone's gaming session and the hero would call his mystic foreigner sidekick "dude" or "bro" any minute. Also, words that don't fit the setting, like, I don't know, "french window" in a fantay setting. Lass is okay, though, the first book I read in English was James Clavell's Gai-Jin, and his scots liked that word.
Was it that same novel or another that used a "match" to light a fire?
That threw me! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 14:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Tremaine
i read a fantasy novel once where a character was "fiddling with her bangs in her room" before meeting someone (I thought what the hell are bangs it sounded a bit rude to me??? later learnt it was an American term for hair I think) that throw me totally out of the story
Bangs are the bit of hair that covers your forehead.
In the Rogue Dragon books, there were two words that kept throwing me. One was palaver. It's a legit word, but it's not one I'm used to seeing, so every time it popped up, it bothered me.
The other word was translate, which the author used in place of teleport. He told me it was because to him, teleport sounded too sci-fi... Which is something I can see, but since I'm far more used to that word, seeing translate all the time really threw me out of the story. It was used properly, but it still felt out of place. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 15:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Not so much any words, as a manner of speaking, in Lady of Poison it felt as if the dialogue could have been written down during someone's gaming session and the hero would call his mystic foreigner sidekick "dude" or "bro" any minute. Also, words that don't fit the setting, like, I don't know, "french window" in a fantay setting. Lass is okay, though, the first book I read in English was James Clavell's Gai-Jin, and his scots liked that word.
Was it that same novel or another that used a "match" to light a fire?
That threw me!
It's been a while since I've read it, but I think that was The Alabaster Staff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 18:26:34
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"Bangs" definately are the hair that covers your forhead area. In the UK you would call it "Fringe" I believe.
I can't think of specific instances, but there have definately been FR books where too modern a term has been used to describe something and it jarrs one out of the story.
The closest example that I can think of is using "miles" to describe distance in Swordmage. Maybe it was the day, but I don't remember distance normally being measured in miles in FR fiction. Could be wrong though. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 18:36:02
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There's 'anachronistic', there's contemporary, and there's 'Yes, I'm dead. Get over it.'
My taste in Realms writing runs to pretty close evocations of the linguistic environment (of which 'lass' is definitely part), so I'm sensitive to a lot of things there. Miles are used quite a bit, but whether it's a Faerûnian measure is unresolved. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 18:41:54
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| I cant remember cases of single words bothering me, but both the Osse and reference to Russ made me put the novels in question away. I have had the same trouble with "real world" names that don't fit the Realms very well, but that's less of a problem. |
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Tremaine
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 18:54:51
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I don't mind the word lass like i said if it comes from an old wizard but when it comes from a young girl or gold elf it just feels wrong to me but thats just me
I loved Rosemary Jones Novels but wasn't keen on some of her characters names like Judicious,Vigilant and stunk
it's quite interesting which word people don't like in their story's Dude sounds completely wrong ;-)
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Edited by - Tremaine on 24 Jul 2010 19:01:53 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 20:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Tremaine
I've just started reading Mistshore and I'm enjoying the story but I do have a slight irritation with a four letter word appearing in this novel especially at the start when nearly all the characters are saying it including the Hero and seems to appear on every other page, now I can just about handle it if comes from an old wizard or Dwarves but when it said by anyone else it just jars me out the story right away, yes the word LASS bugs me no end.
Question for others here, Do any words or phrases throw you off a story?
With regards to lass it depends on the context. Living in the north of England, I'm more likely to say 'lad' and 'lass' then 'girl' or 'boy'.
It depends on the writer and your own frame of reference. There's a danger when American writers drop in a few bits of English terms to give their novels colour, and vice versa when English writers use American terms without much research. The weird Scots that most writers have dwarves speaking in throws me. Also the naff names Salvatore gives to some of his characters, Yipper and Quipper Fishsquisher and their boat Bottom Feeder had me both throwing up at the dwarves' names and laughing at the name they'd called their boat.
However the thing that really gets me is when writers use movie clichés. In the War of the Spider Queen there was a moment where Jeggred said "It's personal," which was just puke-inducingly bad.
As I said though it depends on the writer's frame of reference and your own. If they're using a word that has a different meaning to you (however subtle) then it'll probably jar. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 24 Jul 2010 20:13:01 |
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Jaleigh J.
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 21:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
As I said though it depends on the writer's frame of reference and your own. If they're using a word that has a different meaning to you (however subtle) then it'll probably jar.
Very true.
As regards 'lass' and why I used it over 'girl,' I had two reasons. One was (and I think Tremaine touched on this a bit) the age factor. I forget exactly how old I made Icelin in the story, but she's younger than most if not all the other characters in the book. Despite the powers and the sharp tongue she has, I didn't want the reader to forget that she's not only young, she's been very sheltered for most of her life. But instead of having everyone call her 'girl,' I used 'lass' because to me it conveyed more affection, and many of the characters around Icelin feel protective towards her.
Sorry it grated on you, Tremaine. *hugs*
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http://www.jaleighjohnson.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/jaleigh_johnson |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2010 : 21:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Not so much any words, as a manner of speaking, in Lady of Poison it felt as if the dialogue could have been written down during someone's gaming session and the hero would call his mystic foreigner sidekick "dude" or "bro" any minute. Also, words that don't fit the setting, like, I don't know, "french window" in a fantay setting. Lass is okay, though, the first book I read in English was James Clavell's Gai-Jin, and his scots liked that word.
Was it that same novel or another that used a "match" to light a fire?
That threw me!
It's been a while since I've read it, but I think that was The Alabaster Staff.
I think you are right. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 17:00:28
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This is definitely something that differs from reader to reader. As Wooly noted, he found it off-putting that I didn't say "teleport," and for exactly the reason he explained, I would have "teleport" grating. Ditto for psionics, telepathy, and telekinesis. These are all science-fiction terms to me.
Some readers like fiction that lays the fantasy talk on thick. I find that when it calls attention to itself, instead of making me feel immersed in an exotic world, it often simply knocks me out of the story. Instead of being caught up in the ongoing drama, I'm thinking, Well, the author certainly used every trick in the book to make Gronk the Wyrmslayer there sound like a card-carrying sword-and-sorcery character.
On the other hand, I don't want to see "dude" or "french window" either. I like a writer who finds the middle ground. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 19:04:26
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| The Realms has the well-attested 'translocate', referring to the category of instant or near-instant transportation magics that includes teleportation. It also sounds latinate-technical, but doesn't have 'teleport''s history in SF. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 01:00:28
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What about "fey step"? (flees)
But seriously, to echo RLB there, I've got feedback from people who like the language I used, and some who find it distracting or inappropriate for the setting. For instance, I often use "I've" in the possessive sense (rather than "now I've gone and done it", you might have "I've a mind to go do that!"), and I occasionally use "aught" as a stand in for "anything" (i.e., "do you have aught to say in your defense?" "nay, I've naught to say"). This is partly because it feels very Realmsian to me, and partly because I sometimes speak that way. (Totally weird, I know!) Some people like it, some don't.
On the "lass" vs. "girl" thing, I sometimes worry that calling someone a "girl" comes off as . . . not really insulting, exactly, but deprecating in the sense that they're somehow less than a male character. Also, it isn't always appropriate if you have characters in mature situations (as I often do) to call them by an age-ambiguous-but-probably-youngling term like "girl."
Plus I like the terms "lass" and "lad" better in a fantasy setting anyway!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 01:02:45
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I also have heard that some people find terms like "spellscar" grating, but maybe that has more to do with discontent with the Spellplague.
For those folks, let me be the first to apologize in advance for an aspect of my future writing--I'm still doing stuff with spellscarred people, so it's going to come up. I hope you like or at least tolerate how I do it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tremaine
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 08:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
On the "lass" vs. "girl" thing, I sometimes worry that calling someone a "girl" comes off as . . . not really insulting, exactly, but deprecating in the sense that they're somehow less than a male character.
that's how I feel but the other way round ;-) ,how about calling them by their first names instead of lass all the time that to me shows more respect unless there forgetful hehe
oh I can handle spellscar but please not bangs ;-)
thanks for the hug Jaleigh |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 16:13:16
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| Reading another Realms book and came across Ozone....kinda threw me, I'd rather have read the smell of fresh lightning or some such thing, but there aren't too many way you can describe that smell I guess! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 17:28:37
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| I can attest that it is indeed a pain for a writer to try to avoid using "ozone" when "ozone" is what you're talking about. But it strikes me as an unsuitable word, also. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 18:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I can attest that it is indeed a pain for a writer to try to avoid using "ozone" when "ozone" is what you're talking about. But it strikes me as an unsuitable word, also.
For what it's worth even though that one always throws me, I also give an author a pass on that one every time! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 16:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Tremaine
how about calling them by their first names instead of lass all the time that to me shows more respect unless there forgetful hehe
It's considerably more dodgy when you have to avoid being sexist while the *other character* addressing your female character is not at all interested in being respectful.
Usually, I only use "lass" and such in dialogue or in description that is based on another character's thoughts. For instance, character A describing his impression of character B as "the lass was more a skinny waif than a woman," etc.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 17:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Tremaine
how about calling them by their first names instead of lass all the time that to me shows more respect unless there forgetful hehe
It's considerably more dodgy when you have to avoid being sexist while the *other character* addressing your female character is not at all interested in being respectful.
Just so.
It's ever so jarring if one were to note that grizzled, plain-spoken characters somehow manage to avoid any appearance of political incorrectness, even if they'd have little or no reason from their point of view to show the person they are talking to any kind of respect.
Yes, some people find 'girl' or 'lass' conveys lack of respect or condescension. No, that does not make it improper to use it in a fictional context, especially when the character in whose speech it is to be found actually does take the subject lightly.
Dwarves, for example, are hardly ones to attach much weight to the opinions of young humans, especially not waifish and flighty ones (as they must perceive young human females). And anyone who's lived a long and eventful life in a world as dangerous and complex as Faerun is likely to treat the young with fond condescension at best. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 00:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Tremaine
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
On the "lass" vs. "girl" thing, I sometimes worry that calling someone a "girl" comes off as . . . not really insulting, exactly, but deprecating in the sense that they're somehow less than a male character.
that's how I feel but the other way round ;-) ,how about calling them by their first names instead of lass all the time that to me shows more respect unless there forgetful hehe
I used to work in restuarants, with a lot of young women. And more than once, I called them "chica" or something similar, instead of their name. I never did it if they didn't like it, though, and I also didn't do it if I didn't like them.
On the flipside, there are a couple of women I've known over the years that I refuse to use their proper names -- because I dislike them so much, I won't refer to them by name. That which I call them is not overly flattering, but not inappropriate in mixed company (as long as I don't have to explain the acronym VCB!  ).
So calling someone by something other than their name is not, to me, inherently disrespectful. It can be, but it can also be a sign of greater respect, or affection, or anything else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 01:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the flipside, there are a couple of women I've known over the years that I refuse to use their proper names -- because I dislike them so much, I won't refer to them by name. That which I call them is not overly flattering, but not inappropriate in mixed company (as long as I don't have to explain the acronym VCB! ).
So calling someone by something other than their name is not, to me, inherently disrespectful. It can be, but it can also be a sign of greater respect, or affection, or anything else.
I'm inclined to agree. Just about every person I commune with regularly in my life has another label or nickname that I've assigned to them over the years. But it goes beyond the concept of simple affection. Sometimes I can't recall their names, or I simply find their names aren't truly representative of them. So I create a new one for who they each are.
I don't see it as all that insulting. These people know that I value my relationships with them, and so accept this minor eccentricity on my part.
Overall, I see this merely as an expression of the inherent story-teller aspect of my personality that likes to generate these names, and sometimes exaggerates what I know about them, individually, to make them almost like character-constructs in some great tale or fanciful opera that's playing in my mind. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jul 2010 01:29:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 03:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The Realms has the well-attested 'translocate', referring to the category of instant or near-instant transportation magics that includes teleportation. It also sounds latinate-technical, but doesn't have 'teleport''s history in SF.
There's also "shift," which I haven't seen used since The Netheril Trilogy, or maybe I just didn't notice it much in the 4E novels, where "tranlate" is more common.
As of the issue of 'teleport' being sci-fi-sh, hmm, I don't see it that way nowadays, as I often encounter "teleport" in various non-FR fantasy books and don't think it out of place. But I am not saying "shift" and "translate" throw me off. I am fine with them...What usually throw me off are the dialogues, like some in Pools of Darkness, Whisper of Waves, and Lies of Light, the 3 books I ranked as the worst FR novels I've ever bothered to read.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 28 Jul 2010 03:12:48 |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 03:54:11
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This chica doesn't mind lass, or lovey, or bird, or any other slang if appropriate to the character. I love playing around with archaic terms -- as well as word games with names.
On the other hand, unless all your characters are from the same tribe, they should sound different.
And, Erik, you can use spellscar as much as you want! |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 05:20:18
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| Heh, you try calling Swedish women (regardless of age) something other than a variation on "tjej" (young girl) or their proper name - but I wouldn't reccomend it. Obviously I'm talking about Swedish words here, chica and lass would probably be okay (not sure about girl, though). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 05:37:51
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Spellscar sounds strange, but not annoying.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 19:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Rogue Dragon books, there were two words that kept throwing me. One was palaver. It's a legit word, but it's not one I'm used to seeing, so every time it popped up, it bothered me.
The other word was translate, which the author used in place of teleport. He told me it was because to him, teleport sounded too sci-fi... Which is something I can see, but since I'm far more used to that word, seeing translate all the time really threw me out of the story. It was used properly, but it still felt out of place.
I like the word 'Palaver' and have been known to use it on several occasions. However, there is something about it that strikes me as being more at home in a Planescape campaign than the realms - probably because my view of Sigil is that of a giant hyper-dickensian planar London town and the word fits right in with the feel of the 'Cant'. In fact, whenever I manage to get off my backside and organise a Planescape campaign I will endeavor to include a camp Frankie Howard style tiefling NPC with a catchphrase of 'ooh! what a palaver!"
I also like 'translate' instead of teleport. It has a somewhat strange air to it which hints at powerful and alien powers.
The only world I've seen in a Realms novel which I didn't like was 'Puke' or 'Puking'. It feels out of place, to me, and far too modern. But hey, it's only one word. My only real dislike is when a writer layers on too much of 'Ye olde worlde English,' because it doesn't come across as authentic or interesting - just like the script from a slightly naff episode of 'Murder She Wrote'. You know, the ones where she goes to solve a crime in England or somewhere. |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 23:03:56
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| It can certainly be a careful balance between not sounding too modern and not sounding like you are trying way to hard to write "ye olde" style. Most realms writers are pretty good at this. |
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rockyoumonkeys
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 16:29:14
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| I don't know that it's been used in a FR story, though I assume it has, since I've seen it used by Ed Greenwood in a non-FR book, but the word "ensorcelled" drives me up a wall. |
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Do any words or phrases throw you off a story?
