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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 03:32:08
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An interesting possibility... Although, the lore doesn't say conclusively that the elves and dwarves witnessed the events or were around at the time. Only that such clashes were recounted in elven and dwarven classic ballads. The Giants were definitely around. Elder races may have passed down tales to the elf and dwarf newcomers that were so vivid that the stories worked their way into their way into new works composed by dwarves and elves, which later became "classic ballads." Just as the epic of Beowulf, a Geat (viking), was preserved by the English long after the events of the tale. Or in the manner that we preserve Homer's Odyssey, which has echoes in modern literature today (such as James Joyce's Ulysses, and Led Zeppelin's "Tales of Brave Uylsses") even though the ancient Greeks have long since perished from the Earth.
The Parwiccan cycle is apparently one such of those classical elven works. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 06:37:16
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Found it! Sidebar: Faiths & Pantheons p. 79, in the middle of the entry for Istishia, of all places!
"The Last March of the Giants: East of the Great Rift in the Eastern Shaar once stood a land of titans. This empire rose at the dawn of time in Faerūn, and its lords thought to challenge the gods in their arrogance. In punishment, the powers cursed the reigning monarch of the land with fascination and his brethren with devotion. The powers then dropped a star onto the land. The impact of the fallen star created a huge valley later known as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Slowly picking up speed, the ball rolled through the titan nation and onward to the south.
Unable to contain his curiosity, the titan king ran off after the bouncing sphere and his devoted followers dutifully followed his tracks. The meteorite rolled on and on until it reached the Great Sea and vanished into the depths. The monarch dove into the sea, and, lemminglike, the entire titan race dove in after him, never to be seen again."
The sidebar goes on to mention that the gods were ashamed of the destruction so they vowed to keep curiosity and loyalty in check to prevent a recurrence. "They have done so to this day, preventing both new ideas from being pursued with any speed and the intelligent races of Toril from ever fully cooperating."
What I love about this myth is that it so neatly encapsulates in just a very few words an explanation for 1) the Sea of Fallen Stars; 2) the reason that Titans do not have a presence in Toril as a race; 3) why technology has not advanced much beyond Medieval for the last 32,000 years; 4) why races in Faerūn don't unite (for long) to achieve greater things; and 5) alludes to a war between the primordials and the gods. That is some awesome lore, I must say! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 12:52:33
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Titans were almost as powerful as some gods, in the 2e Legends & Lore and in other sources as well. And I recall reading somewhere that the Titan's presence in Faerūn predated their appearance in Tarterus... I don't recall it properly but this reference seems to suggest they were in Faerūn before showing up in ancient Greece. If so, it could bring back the issue of the interloper nature of some gods and mythological beings known in Earth...
And something else occurred to me. Probably the deities, in their origins, fought not only other deities - like Tempus against the other war gods - but they could also fight titans and other super powerful creatures like elemental princes, elder evils and powerful spirits like those somehow "venerated" by the Uthgardt. Have they also came into actual conflict with the primordials? I don't have the 4e books, and the new cosmology and origin mythos are unknown to me.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 15 Jul 2010 12:54:07 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 14:30:35
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| In 4E parlance Titans are considered Primordials. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 15:01:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
In 4E parlance Titans are considered Primordials.
It makes perfect sense to me. Thank you, Brimstone. Does anyone have specifics about it? Something like WHEN the conflicts occurred, and if the role of the known deities - like Tempus - is further detailed in any sourcebook? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 22:10:26
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First off, the Planescape setting intelligently made a point of differentiating between D&D titans and classic Titans. The original, REAL Titans are indeed older then the gods. At one time, it appears they did have powers to rival, and perhaps even over-match, those of the gods.
This works within the 4e framework - the primordials we know of are those Titans which were not 'lessened' after some ancient, primordial war, but much like the ones from the clasic Greek tales, were imprisoned (some in the outer planes, some on the prime material, and I'm betting a least a few spread around 'elsewhere').
The D&D titans are merely VERY large giants - almost exactly like humongous humans. I never liked them in-game, and never used them - they work better left in their original, mythological interpretation. Many things about 4e I am very much on-board with.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Found it!
The history of the giants in FR makes little to no sense, which is why it is one of the very few aspects of canon I ignore almost entirely. The draco-Giant wars did occur, as far as I'm concerned, but the rest is a confusing, continuity-breaking, mish-mosh of disparate lore.
Where was Ostoria?
I don't care where you place it's borders, I can prove you wrong. At least one or two sources are invalidated wherever you place it. I can go along with its borders being forced to move at some point, but it still doesn't explain everything. giantcraft places it IN the Cold Lands, where Lanaxis built his capital.
So why is it way to the North of Silverymoon, in the Western Realms? 
Hartvale makes no sense where it is - if I could remake the map of the Realms, the very first thing I would move is Hartsvale, somewhere just above Vassa. I actually wished they just forgot about it, rather then place it on the Silverymoon map and included lore about it in the GHotR - it just compounded the errors. Under the great Glacier makes the most sense (and is indeed where it is supposed to be in canon).
the other thing - where did the titans live? In the cold northern planes of Ostoria? Thats where it says they lived in giantcraft, the same tome that says ostoria was in the Cold lands.
Another source says they were all killed when the sea of fallen Stars was hit with a meteor. When did they move to that region?
But wait! According to that source you found grey (good find, BTW), they lived south of the SoFS!
Were Titans just really big gypsies? 
I know they've got long legs... BUT C'MON! I can't find two sources that are in-agreement.
In Pirates of the Fallen Stars there are at least two entries (Ilthan and Paldir) that mention the fallen kingdom of "the Great Ones". A lot of 'ancient lore' I can dismiss as 'innacurate reporting' and just legends, but the ruins on Ilthan are what I consider 'hard evidence'. Ergo, at some point, the Giants did indeed live in the region of the SoFS, and their civilation was destroyed by a cataclysmic event.
The story about the titans running into the sea is ridiculous - it makes them appear to be stupid animals, at best. I would say that story is a legend of what really happened.
Here's what I think, to 'marry' all the lore - when referencing 'the Cold lands' in Giantcraft, they mean everything above a certain latitude. Reading ancient giant texts (the Stone Giants keep records in tomes called Biotite folios - The Giant Amongst us, pg.41), modern scholars mistakenly seem to apply our modern understanding of 'the Cold Lands' to what the giants themselves called 'the cold lands'. Second, the plains in which Lanaxis built his palace were none other then the 'Bleak plains' above Silverymoon, on the border of north-Western Ostoria (assume the borders were never really clearly defined - the Giants probably claimed a LOT of territory they didn't actually use).
Here's the part where I am reaching - after poisoning his mother, the other titans were made to 'leave' Toril - that part works. However, long before that ever occurred, the weather, and encroaching glacier, made it too uncomfortable for many of the titans to continue living in the region of Twilight Vale, and they laid-claim to that area where the Sea of Fallen Stars would someday be (an area, BTW, they had won from the Batrachi, so it was a region they already had a foothold in). Eventually all the titans but Lanaxis moved to the more forgiving climate of the south - mind you, the weather doesn't bother the titans themselves so much, but game was getting scarce, and titans eat a LOT. THEN the incident with the poisoning occurs, and as punishment, 'the gods' choose to punish Lanaxis by destroying his children - the titans. They send a meteor to wipe them out (the 'great Ones' Elven tales speak of), and the event is dimly remembered by Dwarves and others, wherein "the folly of the king caused the leaving of the titans from Toril". This eventually got turned into the rather silly story of the king chasing the rock, and the other titans following. It also shoe-horns into the lore that titans were "banished from Toril" - to many, death is merely one state of being amongst the planes, and the titans now dwell 'elsewhere' in their afterlives (quite literally, 'banished' from the prime material).
One last note, to tie this into the first thing I wrote in this post - Lanaxis I would consider a primordial - a TRUE Titan - and not just 'a titan' (D&D version). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jul 2010 22:24:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 22:39:34
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Oh, and that last part - the part about the 'silly story' - I would definitely blame that on the Dwarves - belittling giants seems right up their alley. Although the time-periods are a bit off, the proximity of the Great Rift to that region the giants supposedly chased 'the bouncing sphere' from cannot be ignored.
This is where we can borrow from other canon lore - the dwarves and giants both use Rune-magic, and I'm pretty sure I recall at least one source stating that the written versions of the two languages are very similar (which has lead me to believe their is a racial connection somewhere).
Two things may have occurred;
1) the Dwarves, upon arriving in the region of the Great Rift, discover ancient Giantish writings (runes), and learn the tale of the now-missing 'Great Ones'. I rather like this, because it allows us to explain the language & magic similarities, the misinterpretation of the titan's 'banishment', and also allows us to explain-away that other reference I found, about the dwarves having ballads about the Thousand Year War - those ballads are nothing more then re-written Giantish tales from an earlier age.
2) Taking it even a step further, what if the two races are related? That would better cover the magic/language similarities, and at the same time open-up some other possibilites. In my first example, there is one glaring flaw - WHO wrote about the death of the titans? was it the dwarves themselves? Could the dwarves be a stunted, cursed version of titans that were too frightened to follow their brethren into 'the great unknown'? or more-likely, could the dwarves have been a slave-race to the giants? Were there titans in the Yehimals that came looking for thier lost brethren, only to discover the truth of what happened? Could thses 'survivors' have perished themselves, either by their own hands, or by a dwarven uprising?
This kind of changes the spin of things - instead of FR dwarves 'coming from' the Yehimals, they may have been lead there. In that way, we establish the dwarves pre-history (vaguely), while still explaining why there is nothing written about them (or by them) previously.
Slaves don't read or write, and their masters wouldn't bother keeping records of them. It would also make a LOT of sense that the dwarves try to cover up this embarrassing aspect of their past, and also explain their deep animosity towards giants.
Just a 'what if' scenario, mind you, to marry some of the inconsistencies, and some of the things that need some explaining (like why both have the rather unique 'Rune Magic').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jul 2010 22:44:07 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 06:54:39
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See p.6 of the Grand History of the Realms. It has a map of pre-Sundering Faerūn. The area marked "Jotunbrud Tribes" is probably Ostoria. Or if Ostoria does not occupy the whole extent of it, it probably still lies somewhere within those boundaries.
Consider also that this is before the Sundering, so how it related geographically to other areas of Faerūn might have changed somewhat after the One Land was shattered.
Although, Ostoria may be as much an ideal as an actual place. A mythical homeland of the Giants, remembered like Camelot, or Atlantis. A place that might not have actually existed in history, or if it did exist, then is remembered as a grander, more amazing place than it actually was.
Consider also that, over the course of millennia, the boundaries of "Ostoria" may have changed. Certain, seemingly distant, locations may have been colonies of Ostoria and considered part of the Giant nation. In our world "Rome" grew from a city to a nation, to an empire that stretched around the Mediterranean. Alexander the Great's Greek empire eventually incorporated Syria, Egypt, Persia, Babylon, and penetrated into India. In recent history, the British Empire was spread around the globe with colonies in all the continents of the World (save Antarctica). It strikes me that all the multiple lore references to the location of Ostoria may all be true, referring to far-flung territories of the Kingdom from various time periods that Ostoria was active.
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 09:03:22
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It bears mentioning that the ELH has an entry for 'Elder Titans', who at a CR of (IIRC)~30+ class level (and they all have class levels, with the implication that most of them have Epic class levels) are certainly a match for all but the greatest of Powers.
I have been examining the 'silly story' of the Titans' demise in search of allegory since first reading it in MT's post, and I have an inkling of what it *may* mean, but am not ready to expound on it as yet.
Also, I want to say that this is a great thread: Lore from across edition lines, much scholarship, and 0 flamebaiting.I'm happy to see it. CK scholarship as it should be. Well done, scribes. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 16 Jul 2010 10:48:20 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 10:17:24
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| and ran off the rails of the original thread ages ago, not to forget :D |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 10:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
and ran off the rails of the original thread ages ago, not to forget :D
As all really good threads do.  |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 19:52:19
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Well, I AM trying to keep it somehow related to the original subject...
And my question persists: Someone there can tell me when the conflicts of deities X primordials occurred, and if the role of the known deities - like Tempus - in these battles was further detailed in any sourcebook? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 00:43:38
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There is no exact lore about that time, simply because it would be hard to make everything still work.
This 'Deities vs Primordials' war must have occurred after the War of Light and Darkness, and before -31000 DR.
On the other hand, if we re-interpret (don't say 'retcon'!!!) the events of that earlier war, we can say they were one and the same. One might even surmise that the War of Light and Darkness is something far more 'primal' in nature, and aspects of it are represented in every setting.
I was going into a VERY LONG tangent revolving around my own proto-mythology (which incorporates aspects of every RW mythos), but it pulled this even further from the topic at hand.
EDIT: the following is nearly all conjecture -
Anyhow, the gist of it is that at some point at 'the beginning', 'darkness' was pushed out from the 'bright center of the Universe', thus separating what we know of as the 'multiverse' from what is beyond it (the Far Realms) The 'skin' of this bubble-Universe is composed of the ever-retreating darkness (beyond the darkness, naught but roiling chaos).
It is foretold that this darkness will someday collapse back in upon the universe, and the chaos will once-again be all that there is. This, BTW, also conforms to certain scientific theories, as well as most mythologies.
Ergo, we have the extremely primordial (as in, before the creation of time itself possibly) conflict between 'Light & Darkness' - Selune and Shar are just Abeir-Torillian representations of this.
At some point around the time time actually began (if we can even wrap our heads around that), the 'Elder Gods' - or 'True Gods' - created the Crystal Spheres and assigned Gaurdians to all of them. From all of those elder Gods avatars were splintered-off to help with the creation of the worlds - the primordials. The Spheric gaurdians (sometimes referrd to as 'Over-Gods') in-turn created the deities, to help them create the things which would exist on the worlds within the spheres. Thus, the Primordials - of whom the Over-gods were the first and most powerful - were in-charge of the inert - while the deities held sway over all that lived.
Unfortunately, after the worlds were 'done', these powerful beings came into conflict over who would rules these new worlds. Too many of their 'portfolios' had much overlap, as in the case of Earth-Mother (the planet itself) and Chauntea (encompassing all that dwelt upon its surface). Thus began the second series of Wars in the heavens - the primordials vs the divine.
And all is not 'black & white' - some primordials sided with the deities, while some deities sided with the primordials. The most ancient of the primal powers - the Elemental lords - stood aside from the conflict for the most part. They had been created before the spheres, and thus held no opinion one way or the other.
Some worlds (spheres) were destroyed, while on others one side or the other were victorious (which is why some worlds have no gods). Abeir-Toril was one such world that was teetering on breakage, and its guardian, Ao, chose to act, and split the main world asunder. Borrowing mass and matter from both, and from other worlds as well, he created Toril, which he left in-place, and Abeir, which was hidden in a special place that could not be found by any god, and that world was given unto the primordials as their own.
The Elemental Lords were the only ones allowed to interact with both worlds, and they remained aloof so as not to be tempted to show either side consideration. Unfortunately, down through the ages, those beings were, on rare occasions, persuaded to create portals, which is how Dragons were spread onto Toril from Abeir. Ao looked dimly at all such malfractions, and punished those involved. there were also a few others that may have 'slipped through the cracks' - primordials that remained behind, for whatever reason, possibly because animosity toward the other primordials, or even because their portfolio was required.
I would say Shar makes for a better primordial (Darkness), and then Mask can be the god that represent Shadow - too bad canon contradicts that; it would have made more sense. Shar seemed dead-set against life forming on Abeir-Toril in the first place, which doesn't seem to be a very intelligent thing for a god to do. Gods receive a good chunk of their power from worship, whilst Primordials receive power from the energies and concepts they represent. Ergo, the two wars would merge better - Shar being primordial and Selune being a goddess.
Amaunator should have been 'the first sun' - a primordial - representing the actual celestial body, whereas Lathander could have represented it's life-giving properties. Then Lathander could have sacrificed part of his own 'godhood' to bring-back Amaunator, which is why they share - and take-turns - with that portfolio. Also a good reason why Amaunator is a more aloof, distant power.
I sometimes wonder if they should have actually gone further with the retcon - I think I said in another thread not to long ago that if they were going to re-create the Realms, they should have gone all-out, and not just halfway. Now we are left with more questions, and no answers in sight. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 00:52:10 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 05:18:32
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Well, Ed has said that Faerūnian sages believe that Toril is about 70,000 years old (give or take).
Sources tell us that Ao created the crystal sphere of Realmspace out of the "elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston." Inside this sphere was a dim mist. I interpret this to mean the raw potential of creation embodied by the Ethereal Plane, but that is certainly open for debate. Within the mist floated barren, lifeless planets that were coveted by the Primordials. The Primordials arose from the Elemental Planes (Chaos).
The lore is hazy about the nature of the Elemental Chaos. Did Ao create it along with the Crystal Sphere? Did it exist apart from the Crystal Sphere? Does Realmspace have it's own Elemental Planes, or does it access a single set of Elemental Planes that are common to all the different cosmoses?
Drawing from 2e lore, my personal theory is that Ao created a Crystal Sphere filled with a misty ether (ethereal plane), which we are told is the plane of Potentiality and which harbors the elemental planes within it. I tend to think, therefore, that the Elemental Planes coalesced from out of the raw potential of the ethereal soup contained within the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. The primordials evolved within that. It might have started out as a single, mixed-up Elemental Chaos and then distilled into separate elemental planes over time, the way that oil and water will separate out if left to sit undisturbed.
Once the Elemental Planes had formed, the matter from that leaked into the Material Plane, or rose up into it as if from out of the depths of a cosmic ocean to a smooth unbroken surface. This matter coalesced into the celestial bodies of Realmspace.
We are also told in the 4e FRCG that "detritus remaining from its creation coalesced around the universe as an ocean of silvery liquid. From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light. The twin goddesses birthed of the Astral Sea quickly moved to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials." Wars with the primordials ensued and lasted for ages.
Next we are told that life struggled into existence on Toril and lived within the depths of the ocean. I feel strongly that these were the ancestors of the Batrachi, the aquatic creator race, a race of octopoids. However, the lore is not specific. It could have been a different aquatic race, maybe the Morkoths, Krakens, or even the Aboleth, or an altogether different race. Myself, I like to think it was the Batrachi forebears.
Then we are told that Dendar ate the Sun. At some point a 2nd sun came to exist. As for when the War of Light and Darkness occurred in all of this, it is hard to say. Did occur after the creation of the 1st sun? Or the 2nd? My guess is the 1st, but I suppose it could go either way.
Note that the 4e FRCG states explicitly that "Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants." Tempus was no doubt born at that time, and in fact was probably a manifestation and personification of the very idea of war engendered by this conflict, created as a byproduct of sentient beings becoming aware of "War" as a concept.
Especially note those words "summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight..." I take that as strong support for the idea that demons and devils and interloper gods immigrated to Realmspace at the behest of Realmspace deities in order to fight in these wars. To my mind that explains very well how the FR cosmos got it's own version of Orcus and Asmodeus and Demorgorgon, etc. Fiends did not originally exist in Realmspace and had no cause to, until they were brought in as mercenaries from "other dimensions"--presumably Greyhawk's Great Wheel.
The Great Wheel fiend lords sent over avatars of themselves, I am guessing the equivalent of "Manifestations" akin to the super-avatars created by the Mulan deities to enter Realmspace in their stead. These arch-fiend avatars were created as generals for the Demon and Devil armies. After the wars were over, they created replicas of the Nine Hells and of the Abyss and set up permanent shop in the FR cosmos, where they have remained to this day.
These avatar fiend-lords, over time, have diverged somewhat from the originals, becoming true fragments. Separate, distinct powers in the same way that many gods have splintered into separate entities, including Tempus/Targus/Garagos himself. Thus the FR Orcus is an FR clone of Greyhawk's Orcus, same with Demogorgon, Asmodeus, etc. At least, that's the theory I favor.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 06:19:13
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I never accepted the 'seperate cosmology' of 3e - I prefer the older, Gygaxian version better. I consider the tree just a local interpretation of the Great Wheel by Torillians.
If 4e fluff says that gods came before primordials, then all I can say is... I'm done. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 07:12:29
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No, it doesn't say gods came before primordials, it says the exact opposite. Ao, then Primordials, then Gods. But that's just Realmspace, it seems clear that there are other Crystal Spheres, Universes and Dimensions that predate the creation of Realmspace, and makes no comment as to what is true for those.
As for cosmology, I am an FR fundamentalist. That is to say, I take the written word as gospel. If it is in print, then it has to be true. With the provision that where there is conflict, the last word on the matter trumps older lore. But the fun for me is trying to figure out how nothing has to trump anything, how the older lore and newer lore can all be true. I like to figure out the best explanations for how seeming conflicts can be harmonized.
And one other provision: Ed's word trumps all (for me).
Ed Greenwood has stated that in his Jan 27 '05 response here at Candlekeep that "Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as gates) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name Forgotten Realms, which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer)..."
See the full quote at this link here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=9
While I honor and respect those who prefer to use the Great Wheel, used to play in it myself, and enjoyed it very much; I am compelled to accept Ed's statement on the matter as definitive. Of course, at the bottom of the quote he leaves some wiggle room for those who would like to go a different way. But as a Realms scholar I have to go with Ed. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:11:24
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I ran Greyhawk first, hence my preferences (plus 2e made it canon). I just assume that the 3e cosmology is some sort of mass-suggestion magic on Ao's part, since he did actively work to cause certain aspects of the ToT (like his existance, for instance) to be forgotten amongst mortals.
Its still odd though - Selune and Shar were born and immediately went to war with the primordials. They worked together? Shar was trying to save the world? That doesn't work for me, not at all. Too out of character for her.
So why did they go from BBF's to haters? Did Selune borrow Shar's best skirt to attend the heaven-hell mixer without asking? Too much is simply missing there - I'm not seeing it. Shar seemed bent on not allowing life to form on Abeir-Toril at all, which goes against the fact that she is a goddess, and fought the Primordials. Her behavior would indicate a more primordial-like mindset.
How about this - we say that during those first early battles, Shar (wearing pink with bows in her hair) absorbed some uber-powerful primordial, and got more then she bargained for. It twisted her, and the Primordial's personality became dominant. Next thing you know, old Shar's wearing leather and hanging out with Bikers.
Ergo, we can keep her a goddess, and still give her primordial-like tendencies. I just need something to marry the bit about Shar going from 'saving the world' to trying to destroy it. something had to cause that dramatic shift. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 08:12:16 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4257 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:22:46
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| Bi-Polar disorder with a HUGE cycle range? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:54:28
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Shar and Selūne loved each other. Of course, Shar always had her dark side. Shar and Selūne were the perfect complement to one another. They made a child together. They were so happy.
Then Selūne created a sun. Against Shar's wishes. A sun whose light would illuminate the dark and greatly diminish Shar's influence in the world. And Selūne turned Chauntea against Shar as well, which Shar could not abide. Shar was so hurt; she knew woe for the first time. Shar slunk off to Shadow to nurse her pain.
In shadow her pain called across the void. Something answered. Some say it was Asmodeus. Or Dagon. But I suspect it was Kexxon, a yugoloth lord, who came to her and tutored her in the ways of Evil. Hate, revenge, war--he taught her all these things, and escorted her through deepest Shadow to visit dark powers of other worlds. He gave her introduction and helped negotiate the terms for mercenaries. She traveled back through Shadow, leading an army of terrible fiends.
Now Selūne would know hurt. The light would be extinguised. The War of Light and Darkness had begun... |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, these are the seven main racial groups, who most-likely evolved from a single progenitor-race:
1) Posi - Tall, blonde, blue-eyed - think classic Norse.
2) Raumvari - Slavic-like people who evolved at the time of the Posi, in the eastern realms
3) Cortae - primitive, Celtic-like people, tribal, venerated nature spirits
4) Haltai - Native Torilian Oriental-type people, short, with dark hair
5) Ang - the Haltai's southern neighbors - an Indian-like people, dark of skin, but with caucasian features
6) Turami - Dark-skinned tribal people, most of whom lived in the jungle regions of the deep south.
7) Mujhari - A Semite-like nomadic people, who were dispersed into other lands by Fate
Thanks Markus, this will save me a lot of time.
Why do you think Issacortae are Celtic, sounds like a Roman name for a Celtic tribe. What about ancient Yuir humans, they also had stone-circle megaliths (that are spread out all over the Realms but and venerated nature-fey-like powers. Also Shou seem fey, were they the ones that arrived from an oriental crystal sphere?
The Ang are interesting, what's the source for them, did they conquer the Indianeque/Dravidian lands like in the Vedas?
''The Dathithes'' I sort of changed them to be more Romanesque.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
3) *Rakshasa - Demonic race responsible for many of the beast-man crossbreeds found throughout the known worlds
I remember your great idea about them being soldiers for Ra, involved in conflicts with the vedic powers. That made wonder about other places and names in the area that have ''Ra''.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It is unknown weather halflings, dwarves, and gnomes are aboriginal. I would hazard to guess the halflings are, and seemed to have been brought up to Faerun from Zakhara with the Dgen. Of course, they could have also been brought from somewhere else to Zakhara originally. The dwarves are also an ancient race, but seemed to have suddenly appeared all at once at a a particular time, which suggests further interloping. Either way, Torillian Dwarves originated in the Yehimals, but where from before that is anyone's guess.
There's the Ladinion/Black Diamond myth for dwarves. I think all these creatures (elves, dwarves, goblinoids, gnomes, orcs) descend from Faerie.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:43:40
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The myth about Selune creating the Sun makes no sense, that would mean Selune had no power in balance to Shar, and still today most of the universe is vacuum.
For Shar I did not use yugoloths but the story from Lords of Madness, there's a being called Ychak the Violet Flame, and Shar's first symbol had the color red, now as the universe is about to end it's violet (spectrum). |
Edited by - Quale on 18 Jul 2010 13:40:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 03:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
1) Posi - Tall, blonde, blue-eyed - think classic Norse.
2) Raumvari - Slavic-like people who evolved at the time of the Posi, in the eastern realms
3) Cortae - primitive, Celtic-like people, tribal, venerated nature spirits
4) Haltai - Native Torilian Oriental-type people, short, with dark hair
5) Ang - the Haltai's southern neighbors - an Indian-like people, dark of skin, but with caucasian features
6) Turami - Dark-skinned tribal people, most of whom lived in the jungle regions of the deep south.
7) Mujhari - A Semite-like nomadic people, who were dispersed into other lands by Fate
Posi - originally I had the Rauthym as this proto-group, but after seeing Brian James GHotR, I chose to marry his lore and mine, and create a single group that split, and used his term 'Azuposi' as a base for this. Rauthym is still central to this now-sunken culture.
Raumvari - I was using kalmyk for quite awhile now, but that was misleading, especially since I have conjectured two seperate cultures using that name. Although the human kalmyk were probably the earliest example of an advanced culture with this bloodline, 'Raumvari' is so much more generic, and fitting, for the ethnicity. Also not as nation-specific as the former terms of 'Rashemi' or 'Rumathari', and it comes from the dragon magazine article on the Hordelands.
Cortae - other then the rather Celtic sound the name has to it, their culture is also reminscent of the ancient Celts, most notably the one of the Arthurian period. Lots of small kingdoms and kings, with one 'High King' chosen to lead them all against mutual threats. I spoke with another scribe on this matter, one who was developing the Talfir as the Celtic-like, pre-Tethyrian people, and decided that another split of east & west, like I did with the Posi, was in order. This was so long ago - during the Sundering - that the cultures have very little in common now, aside for some very rudimentary religious and civic traditions.
Haltai - I was calling these guys the Lung for the longest time, after I worked out quite abit of eastern lore with Brian James. However, the Celestial Lung dragons appear to have come from the same place as the Shou, and it didn't make a lot of sense to me name-wise. Although I have decided that terrestrial Lung did exist in the the east in times past, I still chose to go with 'Haltai' to avoid confusion between the dragons and the indigenous people. I chalk it up to an error during first contact - when the natives were asked who they were by Imaskari explorers, they said 'Haltai Lung', which meant 'people of the Dragon', but the translation got garbled and they thought it meant 'The Lung people', and the Imaskari continued to refer to the aboriginal Kara-Turrans as 'Lung'. The name 'Haltai' comes from 'Wu-Haltai' - a primitive canon tribe living in the far north. I assume that each tribe had a geographic quantifier (Wu, in this case) before the name 'Haltai'.
Ang - I originally dubbed these Asian-Indian People the Mar, which is what they are called in the Utter East. However, that didn't seem right to me, since they would have migrated there from another (fallen?) civilization belonging to the same ethnic group. After researching Malatra, I found the letters 'ang' appear quite often in the cultural, national, and language names in the region (Purang, Tempat Larang, etc), so I boiled it all down to 'Ang' for the race.
Turami - I believe, first appeared in old Empires, but I could be mistaken; that is the group that the Turmish descended from. I switched back & forth several times, but 'Chultan' is too geographic-specific, Katashakan isn't really very Realmsian, etc... I may change this yet again. However, I really like the very generic quality of it - that particular term isn't associated with any specific place.
Mujhari - also can be used as a pronoun, Mujhein. This is most prominent in The Hordelnads material, but I have seen it in-use elsewhere. It is also used as a term for the proto-language Roushoum(sp?) developed from. In that source, its used as an 'umbrella term' for all the middle-eastern like people in the south-eastern realms, including those peoples living around the Shining Waters. Since 'Bedine' is to Real-world (and also place-specific), and 'Zakharan' is too regional, I decided to go with a canon term to describe all peoples of that ethnicity.
Thanks Markus, this will save me a lot of time.
You're very welcome - I appreciate the interest.
Why do you think Issacortae are Celtic, sounds like a Roman name for a Celtic tribe. What about ancient Yuir humans, they also had stone-circle megaliths (that are spread out all over the Realms but and venerated nature-fey-like powers. Also Shou seem fey, were they the ones that arrived from an oriental crystal sphere?
Yes, and yes, they looked somewhat Oriental, but I wanted them to be a little different, and canon sources suggest the red hair and tallness - those regions in Shou-Lung with higher percentages of Shou (noble) blood have people who are taller with reddish hair. The 'large Eyes' was entirely mine - I wanted them to have a bit of an alien quality to them, to further differentiate them from the native Haltai. Whereas the Haltai have the epicanthic fold that RW oriental peoples have, the Shou have eyes that are actually angled, much like an Elf's.
As for the Yuir, YES, they would be one of the many tribes of Cortae that settled all over the central part of the Faeru-turran Continent. those monoliths are everywhere, including in the east (another reason why I wanted to bring some of the Celt-like people over that way). The Cortae were a group that venerated nature spirits - much of that was taught to them by the early Sylvan (green) Elves that came to Abeir-Toril first. Whereas these early interlopers tried to merge themselves into the natural order of Realmspace, and teach the primitive humans about Spirits (fey) and 'balance' (druidism), the later arrivals chose merely to covet and dominate.
The Ang are interesting, what's the source for them, did they conquer the Indianeque/Dravidian lands like in the Vedas?
the Ang are about 50% homebrew, 50% trying to paste some very lean sources together. most of their culture I get from the Jungle Lands entries in the K-T material, and from the most excellent source, Ronin challenge. I also fudged-in all of the Mahasarpa material that came in the 3eOA WE. They are an indianesque Vedic culture, with strong influences from their northern neighbors (both the Haltai, and later the Shou). The lower half of Malatra - the part that never recieved any detail - I have dubbed Dweepam (from a name of mythical India). That region is composed of about a dozen small kingdoms, and each is ruled by a Sultan or some-such, but the religion is handled by Kumari - little girls chosen to be the spiritual leaders for the nations. Recently, strange going-on have been reported, and it appears one little girl has united all the kingdoms into one Empire (she is an epic psionicist) - think 'Child-like Empress' gone BAD.
''The Dathites'' I sort of changed them to be more Romanesque.
Right, they are - clasical Greek and Roman, and even earlier cultures (phoenetian, philistine, even Atlantean, ect..), but they proved too much for the Imaskari to handle. I would have liked for the Chondathan cultures to be native, but there was that one errant entry in the god-tomes. I assume that the modern Chondathan blood has quite a bit of Talfir/Cortae in it - I doubt any 'pure bloods' could still be around from that time period, especially considering the time and distances they covered, and also the destruction of Jhaamdath (where I'm sure the last of the 'pure' Dathites perished)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
3) *Rakshasa - Demonic race responsible for many of the beast-man crossbreeds found throughout the known worlds
I remember your great idea about them being soldiers for Ra, involved in conflicts with the vedic powers. That made wonder about other places and names in the area that have ''Ra''.
Ah... the days of dreaming about the lands of Toril, and how to make them all mesh. Yeah, I had it where the Rashaksa was literally 'Ra-Shaksa', or "Ra's slaves", but 'Shaksa' means something closer to 'war thrall' in Abyssal. When Ra assigned Baast to counter any moves by Set during one of the early 'god wars', she approached a group of demons and asked them if they would be willing to serve the gods, and they agreed, within certain conditions - that they would be set-free after the fighting, and never be bothered or hampered by the Pharonic Pantheon. She agreed, and brought them before Ra. He most displeased with her choice of warriors, and the deal she struck, so he change all the demons to have 'the likeness of cats', so that Baast would forever have to face what she had done.
That was just a brief snippet of some of the stuff we were all working on back them. Later, when the Vedic Pantheon came to the Pharonic gods for aid against the cat-demons who plagued them, Ra was forced to refuse them aid, and the two pantheons have been bitter toward one-another ever since.
There's the Ladinion/Black Diamond myth for dwarves. I think all these creatures (elves, dwarves, goblinoids, gnomes, orcs) descend from Faerie.
Yes, I remember that tale, which is why I think it happened on Abeir-Toril, and the region known as Hanya-maut wasteland is the original Realm of the Le'Shay. The eastern word for fey is 'kami', and the spirit-Folk of the east are half-kami, which means they are Fey(Le'Shay)-blooded beings. I would guess they are a human-fey crossbreeds, since Eladrin (and Elves) are somehow connected to the fey, most likely as their mortal children. It wouldn't make sense for Spiritfolk t be a Fey/Elf crossbreed.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2010 03:43:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 03:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The myth about Selune creating the Sun makes no sense, that would mean Selune had no power in balance to Shar, and still today most of the universe is vacuum.
So you're saying the universe sucks? 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 13:37:55
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Posi - originally I had the Rauthym as this proto-group, but after seeing Brian James GHotR, I chose to marry his lore and mine, and create a single group that split, and used his term 'Azuposi' as a base for this. Rauthym is still central to this now-sunken culture.
I know that you said the sages call them Posi, tough I gotta say that the name feels entirely unfit for a Norse-like culture. Also you know there are rarely mentioned Ruathym Mountains near Adbar, it's a mystery, maybe multiple ways of migration from the polar civilization.
In homebrew I pictured that during the ice age (pre -37 000 DR) that I call the Age of the Cold Gods (sort of post-Ragnarok-Titanomachy nuclear winter) there were only a few pockets of life and these people survived living near a place that bordered the Blood Rift prison (Carcerian) of a titan who carried a ''Promethean torch'' from an earlier age of the Sun. Later the planar rift spread into the Cold Lands, similar to Chaos in Warhammer.
Raumvari - I was using kalmyk for quite awhile now, but that was misleading, especially since I have conjectured two seperate cultures using that name. Although the human kalmyk were probably the earliest example of an advanced culture with this bloodline, 'Raumvari' is so much more generic, and fitting, for the ethnicity. Also not as nation-specific as the former terms of 'Rashemi' or 'Rumathari', and it comes from the dragon magazine article on the Hordelands.
I was speculating about Raumvari too, it is actually one of the few ancient civilizations that I wanted to return. Imagined their lands divided into Kalmyk Circles, like in European Eastern Hallstatt or Kurgan/Iron Age history where they introduced superior metalworking. Realms where the trade-route areas are controlled by minor Iron lords who's power depends on their access to rare materials. Also I added a fantastical element, there is an interesting system of magic in Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn novels called allomancy. As for Raumathar, changed that entirely too, moved them to the southeast, and since the Realms lack a a jewish real world analogy (a pitty since it's one of the richest mythologies). They were the creators of golems, Mulhorandi slaves, destroyed in a Great Conflagration or holocaust, except Kossuth was replaced by Belial and summoned by diabolists from Cheliax (from Golarion but I based it on Peleveran and Gargauth). Their survivors are the Khazari, not the ones from Horde but like real-world Khazaria.
Turami - I believe, first appeared in old Empires, but I could be mistaken; that is the group that the Turmish descended from. I switched back & forth several times, but 'Chultan' is too geographic-specific, Katashakan isn't really very Realmsian, etc... I may change this yet again. However, I really like the very generic quality of it - that particular term isn't associated with any specific place.
Yea, they first appeared in Unther, in the Meth area. Actually, based on their appearance I decided they'd be like Sumerians (they were called black-headed), cause they are so different than other Mesopotamian peoples. And better moved to the south. The Mujhari and the Mulan would be based on Amorites and their mythologies (Semitic). Since I have Azlant from Golarion, figured there should be an analogy to Lemuria as well, from where the Turami and the Dravidian-like Ang arrived (fits with the sunken civilization in the Shipgrave Isles and the half-batrachi in the Utter East - could be the fish-people of Enki/Muhjari Ea).
As for the Yuir, YES, they would be one of the many tribes of Cortae that settled all over the central part of the Faeru-turran Continent. those monoliths are everywhere, including in the east (another reason why I wanted to bring some of the Celt-like people over that way). The Cortae were a group that venerated nature spirits - much of that was taught to them by the early Sylvan (green) Elves that came to Abeir-Toril first. Whereas these early interlopers tried to merge themselves into the natural order of Realmspace, and teach the primitive humans about Spirits (fey) and 'balance' (druidism), the later arrivals chose merely to covet and dominate.
It was similar to Earth's development of religion, first there was animism and totems, the shamans were high on hallucinogens, seeing into other worlds they contacted spirits and fey, maybe they invited them to battle the dragons. Then later the Celt-like people developed druidism, I still prefer the 2e version of only human and half-elf druids and bards.
What does ''Faeru-turran'' mean, something with fey and Turami? Reminds me also about the Thurian age from Howard.
In the Talfiric/Rise of the Runelords campaign that I run the story is that the Talfir (and Taldor) came from Azlant after the Sundering, only those on good terms with the fey survived. And Faerun is actually from the Fey-rune ritual where they bound their plane to the most important Prime world, with chronomantic and geomantic consequences.
Right, they are - clasical Greek and Roman, and even earlier cultures (phoenetian, philistine, even Atlantean, ect..), but they proved too much for the Imaskari to handle. I would have liked for the Chondathan cultures to be native, but there was that one errant entry in the god-tomes.
I never liked the idea of directly importing stuff from Earth through portals, that way it would turn out that the majority of Faerun's population (and gods) comes from Earth, where are the natives? makes no sense. I'd much rather have the Realms as Earth-2, sort of parallel evolution. Same with the gods, pantheons of Earth existed once but after the cataclysms/Ragnarok the survivors like Sune-Aphrodite, Malar-Herne etc. formed the current pantheon.
I assume that the modern Chondathan blood has quite a bit of Talfir/Cortae in it - I doubt any 'pure bloods' could still be around from that time period, especially considering the time and distances they covered, and also the destruction of Jhaamdath (where I'm sure the last of the 'pure' Dathites perished)
It does, it's evident in Silvanus' and Oghma's influence in the Jhaamdathan pantheon and the Vilhon Reach area, and Silvanus is a Roman name for a Celtic god. I'd prefer tough that Chondathans and Chessentans are separate groups of people like in the real world with the Italics and Greeks. Also to have an Etruscan analogy. How does the psionics fit, maybe it comes from the philosophical schools of thought.
I have dubbed Dweepam (from a name of mythical India). That region is composed of about a dozen small kingdoms, and each is ruled by a Sultan or some-such, but the religion is handled by Kumari - little girls chosen to be the spiritual leaders for the nations. Recently, strange going-on have been reported, and it appears one little girl has united all the kingdoms into one Empire (she is an epic psionicist) - think 'Child-like Empress' gone BAD.
Interesting, that would be a moral issue for the pcs. I like the psionic take, Golarion's Vudra has them.
That was just a brief snippet of some of the stuff we were all working on back them. Later, when the Vedic Pantheon came to the Pharonic gods for aid against the cat-demons who plagued them, Ra was forced to refuse them aid, and the two pantheons have been bitter toward one-another ever since.
Do you think nagas were involved in this conflict, as allies of Set, and Ra's phoenixes and garudas hunting them down.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you're saying the universe sucks?
Lol, for the emo-types like Shar it does. I like the Shar being a primordial of darkness (and black holes) idea, what if Selune represented the Outer Planes, planes of belief, and Shar the material plane, a cold, hard world of no hope. Then Selune opened the portals through the phlogiston.
As for the titan myth, never undestood the decision that there are no titans in the Realms, I'd make it a corrupted version of the Imaskar's fall.
Considering Ostoria, GhotR says it streched from the eastern Cold Lands to the Sea of Fallen Stars, but considering the realms of Darchar, Grunfesting, Ranauroch etc. I wonder why it wasn't on the western side.
4e designers did not notice to connect the fall of the titans with the -31 000 DR Abeir-split. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 21:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I spoke with another scribe on this matter, one who was developing the Talfir as the Celtic-like, pre-Tethyrian people, and decided that another split of east & west, like I did with the Posi, was in order.
Just curious, was this one of my many half formed ideas? I seem to remember we talked about this once. I have pages of unfinished notes and ideas concerning tethen and talfiric culture somewhere. Blatantly against canon of course |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 14:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
What does ''Faeru-turran'' mean, something with fey and Turami? Reminds me also about the Thurian age from Howard.
I believe when Markustay says "Faeru-tur" he is referring to the big land mass that encompasses Faerūn and Kara-TUR. Something like Earth's "Eurasia"... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 20:37:23
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I'd use the slap-head smiley now.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Note that the 4e FRCG states explicitly that "Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants." Tempus was no doubt born at that time, and in fact was probably a manifestation and personification of the very idea of war engendered by this conflict, created as a byproduct of sentient beings becoming aware of "War" as a concept.
Especially note those words "summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight..." I take that as strong support for the idea that demons and devils and interloper gods immigrated to Realmspace at the behest of Realmspace deities in order to fight in these wars.
Well, the maybe Tempus and some of the other Realmsian gods we don't know from Earth could also be interlopers... Being called from other worlds, and that's why we don't recognize them as interlopers.
And according with Markustay theory, the High God of Krynn would also be one of those "greater primordials", like Lord Ao, and at least some of the gods would be interlopers, right? Do you guys associate Paladine and Takhisis as aspects of Bahamut and Tiamat?
Another question for Markustay, getting back to the Realms and this a tricky one: weren't the deities forces linked to their worshipper's veneration only after the Time of Troubles? This was one o the greatest statements of Lord Ao at the end of the Avatar Crisis, IIRC. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 22:01:50
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GODS:
I use them all - before I erased much of it from another post, I had quite a bit of my proto-proto-pantheon laid out, and the concepts they represented. Kronos {time), Ptah (Space), Vishnu (Life), Thanatos (death), Ymir (matter), etc...
They in-turn created the first of the primordials, known as the 'high primordials' - those would be the Overgods. Then, after the Overgods had fashioned Crystal Spheres for their worlds, the Elder Gods created another group of primordials, known as the Titans, or 'Jotuns'. these 'low primordials' are the ones some mortals are familiar with. These primordials created the deities, in some cases on-purpose, and in others by accident.
All of these beings, and the few above them, along with a few that came from an alternate line (Dragons come from that branch), would all be considered 'gods'. The Krynnish 'High God', Io of Greyspace, Eternity of Marvelspace, Eru of MiddleEarth, Celestial Emeperor of Jadespace, etc, etc are all examples of 'High Primordials', or 'Spheric Gaurdians', more commonly referred to by mortals as Over-gods. Every sphere started out with one, but not all have them, and not every OverGod has a sphere; Some, like the Lady of Pain, rule other regions of the multiverse.
Pretty much all homebrew, in my attempt to unite all the religions into a 'Unified creation theory' that also takes into account current RW religions and science.
And yeah, I did tie Set to snakes and the Sarrukh, and their later creations the Yuan-ti and Nagas - after all, Yuan-ti and Nagas are present amongst those cultures that have had more run-ins with Rakshasa. Had a whole thing going on down in primordial Zakhara wherein the Djinn were originally summoned by Rakshasa as their minions, who eventually broke-free and forced the Rakshasa to flee into the Yehimals. Covered a lot of territory in the Utter East thread - that was where all the various histories needed to be blended together. Had to fudge quite a bit in the Larang valleys (Ronin Challenge) because the Vedic Pantheon should be present there, and yet we have some myths about the Kara-Turran pantheon in that same region. The east is very strange, religion-wise - no religion is exclusive to any other, unlike our real world religion of the west (but not really so in FR - the same technically holds true - everyone believes in ALL the gods).
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I believe when Markustay says "Faeru-tur" he is referring to the big land mass that encompasses Faerūn and Kara-TUR. Something like Earth's "Eurasia"...
Precisely.
Its a lot easier to type then "the Faerūn/Kara-Tur/Zakhara continent.
Also, Brian's pre-Sundering name for the landmass wouldn't be applicable post-Sundering (plus it is also a mouthful to type). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jul 2010 22:14:25 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 17:15:37
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Actually, Markustay, my question was made because, when you set a diferentiation between primordials (physical matter) and deities (live matter), I thought you were stating that there was an intrinsec association between "life" and worshipping.
But the idea of gods depending on their worshippers for their living and thriving was originally stablished on the transition between 1st and 2nd edition, marked by the Time of Troubles - otherwise, how could some gods have created the world and mortals? However, later 2nd edition products seemed to work based on this principle, even when revelating divine stories transcurred thousands of years before 1357 DR. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 21 Jul 2010 17:17:21 |
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The origins of Tempus: Deities & Primordials
