| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 20:16:31
|
|
Does anyone know any details about the origins of Tempus? Faiths and Pantheons states that he was born of the conflict between Selūne and Shar, and defeated many co-existing war deities - being Targus/Garagos of Netheril the last one he beat - before he was stablished as the supreme war god of Faerūn. I also read some references of Tempus as a Talfirian god here at Candlekeep, but don't know from which references this info came. Anyone?
|
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 21 Jul 2010 17:19:25
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 01:23:09
|
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Book (3E) states in the History section on pg. 260 says, regarding the War of Light and Darkness, that "Chauntea begged for warmth so that she might nurture life and living creatures upon her form, and the twin goddesses disagreed over whether this should be done. The two fought, and from their divine conflict the deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces were created." I take this to mean that Talona (disease), the original god of War, the original god of Murder, and a god of Death, all had their origins during or as a result of this war.
The god of War was worshipped by many different human tribes, and as they became isolated from one another, they worshipped him under different names and guises. Eventually, the singular god of War becam fragmented into multiple versions of himself. The way I see it, these guises started out as Aliases, then became something like alternate personalities, perhaps represented by distinct avatars, until they split off into distinct entities and became separate gods altogether.
War fragmented into Tempus of the Talfiric pantheon; Targus of the Netherese pantheon; and Garagos probably of the Jhaamdathan pantheon, or from a human proto-pantheon located somewhere around the Sea of Stars. I think these were likely all originally the same deity, that became distinct entities, but Targus appears to have been later merged with or subsumed back into Garagos after the fall of Netheril. Tempus and Garagos battled it out for supremacy over war after their geographic spheres of influence began to merge with the Chondathan diaspora, and Tempus won out. Garagos was allowed to continue as a demi-god of minor aspects of War held "in fief" from Tempus.
See also p.104 of Races of Faerūn which states that "Tempus is believed to have been a Talfirian deity who defeated the Netherese god Targus (Garagos)." P.109 "Several deities of the Faerūnian pantheon are believed to have first been worshiped by the Talfir, including Tempus, who vanquished the Netherese god of war." And Faiths & Pantheons p.4 "Tempus was a deity of war in the Talfiric pantheon (a culture contemporary to Netheril), while Garagos was a deity of war in the Netheres pantheon. After these two cultures blended, Tempus and Garagos battled for supremacy. In this case, Tempus prevailed, and Garagos was reduced to demigod status."
Interestingly, from the quote above, it would appear that the original entities holding the portfolios of Murder and Death were two separate deities, at least initially. Presumably, the god of Murder killed the god of Death at some point and took his portfolio, uniting both portfolios under one godhead--at least by the time that Jergal controled the Fugue during the age of Netheril. He would later split up his portfolio so that Bhaal got Murder and Myrkul got Death. Murder and Death were again consolidated under Cyric, briefly, but have again been divided with Kelemvor now holding Death. |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 01:29:07
|
The Tempus of the Talfir pantheon connection came from Faiths and Pantheons as well. See pgs. 4-5.
Edit: And Gray beat me to it!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Jul 2010 01:31:09 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 01:50:57
|
| Thank you for the references. I asked initially because I had the impression of reading somewhere that Tempus was once mortal, and that some reason tied to his previous mortal life was linked to his silence (he never talks and only grunts, IIRC). Of course, this info would be in an earlier edition product. But I couldn't find anything about it, at least until now... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 02:53:39
|
Well, I don't think any of that necessarily excludes Tempus from having been an ascended mortal. Mystryl was replaced twice, and the original Tempus could have died and been replaced by a mortal, perhaps even multiple times since the War of Light & Darkness.
Ed has always said that the origins of deities are shrouded in mystery and their true secrets can never be ultimately known for sure.
I think Eric Boyd was a strong proponent, and Ed might perhaps agree with him, of gods being able to encompass multiple, conflicting origins that are (paradoxically) equally "true." There is some notion that gods don't have an "absolute" reality, but rather that, unlike mortal beings, their current reality and even their past history and continuity are dependent upon belief. Thus, their past history, and their memories of their past, may be a product on some level of what their worshippers believe to have happened. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 04:29:48
|
I would agree with Gray (as usual).
In the stuff I did on the Malatra pantheon in the K-T project, rather then use the actual Indian (Hindu) Gods, I said that particular group managed to bypass the usual interloper restrictions by coming to people in their dreams, and then being 'born' into them (they, taking on the 'divine essence' of the deity after acceptance). Basically, the gods of that pantheon sent the energy of a single avatar into the Realms and merged it with a mortal, so the 'new gods' were similar to, but not exactly the same as, the originals from another sphere.
Which is why the Realms version of Indra is female. 
Not precisely on-topic, but I wanted to give an example of how gods can have multiple origins, and all of them be true. For each sphere, and possibly each culture within a sphere, a single deity can have different beginnings, and since gods are constantly 'merging' AND splitting apart, no-one can ever truly know how much of a deity is original, and how much of it is an amalgam of every other deity it has encountered, and each of those 'bits' has a separate story.
For instance, the Tyr of the Realms may be related to Earth's (Norse) Tyr, but is quite obviously a different being now. Ergo, if FR's Tyr is an 'off-shoot' of Earth's, then he could still have the origin of Norse-TYR and a completely different FR origin at the same time (since it is apparent he must have merged-with or consumed some god of justice at some point).
Furthermore, as Gray has stated, gods also have aliases, and sometimes even different portfolios, and even sometimes take-on the persona (and name) of a dead or defeated god to ease the absorption of the other being's followers into its clergy. Also, gods occasionally do temporary-mergers, like the Elven Angharradh, composed of Sehanine, Aerdrie Faenya, and Hanali Celanil, or the concept of the Adama (One God) in the Shining Lands. In all of those cases, the gods would once-again have multiple, yet TRUE, origins. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jul 2010 04:32:10 |
|
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 08:29:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
War fragmented into Tempus of the Talfiric (sic)* pantheon; Targus of the Netherese pantheon; and Garagos probably of the Jhaamdathan pantheon, or from a human proto-pantheon located somewhere around the Sea of Stars.
The Talfir being one of the oldest human tribes, if I recall? That certainly makes sense, and is probably also why the Trail of Tears starts in the Fields of the Dead. That area is almost right in the middle of the Chionthar river valley (in the Western Heartlands) where the Talfir were the original (human) inhabitants.
You know, Tempus is my favourite deity, but Ive never actually taken the trouble to research his origins. This is fascinating stuff!
* Talfiric is the language they spoke, Talfirian pantheon is the correct use. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 02:58:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
* Talfiric is the language they spoke, Talfirian pantheon is the correct use.
A scholarly distinction, and a debatable one. I have seen it both ways. Faiths & Pantheons p.4 refers to the pantheon as the Talfiric Pantheon. Races of Faerūn names their language as Talfiric, and has several uses of Talfirian as an adjective. The people are called the Talfir. While one could split hairs, I suppose, I would suggest that Talfiric is an adjective describing the language, the culture, or the pantheon, whereas Talfirian describes things relating to the race, the people, or their geographical sphere, with some degree of overlap and interchangeability between the two terms.
I don't know that the Talfir are necessarily the oldest human tribe. Just one of several prominent ancient tribes that left their mark on history. In the West, the major ones were the Talfir, Netherese, Coramshan, Jhaamdath, and the Illuskans. In the East you had the Rus, Imaskari, Nar, and heck, it starts to get too numerous to count. Races of Faerūn gives a lot of info on many of them.
The Talfir are very old, though. They go back at least as far as the Crown Wars, when elven writings document the Talfir as living in the heart of Shantel Orthreier. |
|
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 09:03:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
While one could split hairs, I suppose, I would suggest that Talfiric is an adjective describing the language, the culture, or the pantheon, whereas Talfirian describes things relating to the race, the people, or their geographical sphere, with some degree of overlap and interchangeability between the two terms.
I don't have Faiths & Pantheons as source, only Races of Faerūn, and therefore see merit in your point.quote:
In the West, the major ones were the Talfir, Netherese, Coramshan, Jhaamdath, and the Illuskans.
Have you any idea who the Coramshan and Illuskans worshipped as a god of War? |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 13:24:22
|
| I always wondered why Tempus' holy symbol is the flaming sword, considering that even in 2e his weapon was never a "flame tongue". In my 2e campaign, I determined that Tempus won some control over the fire element after defeating an elemental prince, and that is what permits their priests using spells of the elemental fire sphere like "flame blade" (in a certain way, just like Uthgar defeated some animal totems and lend their powers to his worshipers). But thinking again, maybe the symbol could be linked to an ancient aspect of Tempus, to a weapon he could have used in a previous mortal life, or even to another war deity he defeated in the past. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 14:16:35
|
| I'm playing a Talfiric/Athalantar/Rise of the Runelords campaign right now, R.E. Howard's Crom is an inspiration for Tempus. |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4257 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 19:05:04
|
@Quale: I always likened the two as being very similar (Crom and Tempus)...I'm glad I'm not the only one.
As for Tempus' flaming sword, I always thought of it as more akin to saying "The Flaming Sword of War" that destroys anything in its path and burns in the hearts of all men...that sort of thing. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 19:44:59
|
@ Gray: Thank you for the (as always) lucid and well-thought out Realmslore... I like the idea (which has been explored previously) that the gods are who their worshippers make them, not the reverse.
As to the symbol of the church of Tempus being a sword whilst the Power himself wields an axe, it makes sense to me: A sword is an instrument of war, and isn't any good for anything else. You can't chop down a tree, hunt food, break up rocks or pitch a bale of hay with a sword; the only job it's good for is ending life, making it a perfect symbol of a human war-god. Tempus using an axe makes sense in spite of this, however: In war, only the nobility and their affluent equivalents (i.e. churchmen, adventurers, and mercenaries) use swords, and these people tend to make up a fraction of all those actually involved in warfighting. The majority of the fighters on either side of a (primarily human) conflict are going to be peasant farmers, the urban poor, and the like, and those sorts can't afford swords- they tend to repurpose the tools of their trades to deal death; hammers, sickles, bill-hooks, pickaxes, pitchforks... and axes. It's appropriate for some *other* warlike gods (Tempus and the Red Knight spring to mind) to use swords, since they embody the more 'noble' aspects of war, but Tempus is down in the trenches slogging it out with the desperate as much as he's on the lips of the general astride a magnificent charger. So to my way of thinking, since most of the prayers he gets are from folks who have never held a sword, but probably know a thing or two about (i.e) how to trip an armored opponent and crush his skull with a hammer/axe/great big rock while he's down, the axe is representative of the egalitarian nature of war. Or I could be overthinking it. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
|
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 21:56:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
It's appropriate for some *other* warlike gods (Tempus and the Red Knight spring to mind) to use swords, since they embody the more 'noble' aspects of war, but Tempus is down in the trenches slogging it out with the desperate as much as he's on the lips of the general astride a magnificent charger.
Did you perhaps mean "Torm/Tyr and the Red Knight"?
Apart from that I agree fully with you. Tempus is an equal opportunity god. All he asks is that you do battle (and if it so happens, die in battle) willingly and valiantlybut not always needlesslybe you a peasant or a king. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 21:58:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
It's appropriate for some *other* warlike gods (Tempus and the Red Knight spring to mind) to use swords, since they embody the more 'noble' aspects of war, but Tempus is down in the trenches slogging it out with the desperate as much as he's on the lips of the general astride a magnificent charger.
Did you perhaps mean "Torm/Tyr and the Red Knight"?
Apart from that I agree fully with you. Tempus is an equal opportunity god. All he asks is that you do battle (and if it so happens, die in battle) willingly and valiantlybut not always needlesslybe you a peasant or a king.
I did indeed mean to say 'Torm' there, Kyrene: I had Tempus on the brain. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 05:04:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Have you any idea who the Coramshan and Illuskans worshipped as a god of War?
The Illuskan and Talfiric pantheons merged at some point early on. The only recorded war god they venerated is Tempus. They might have originally worshipped a different god of war, but, as far as I know, there is no mention anywhere of it.
Eric Boyd has speculated that the forebears of the Northmen that settled Illusk may have been Scandinavians from Earth that rowed through some kind of portal or planar rift that transported them to the Trackless Sea. And I think that he speculated Tyr might have first been brought to Toril with them around 3 thousand years ago, give or take. Tyr definitely arrived in Toril in -247 DR leading the Procession of Justice, but that does not preclude an earlier, abortive attempt to immigrate to Toril with the Northmen at an earlier date. One that didn't take. But it could have been a strong enough tie that he came back later in full force.
There was a population of Finns that settled in the North and who brought with them Kiputytto and Loviatar of the Finnish pantheon and perhaps even some additional Finnish gods that failed to make a lasting mark on the Realms. I do not see a god of war listed among the D&D Finnish pantheon. These could have been the original Northmen, mentioned above, or they could have come over in a separate wave, perhaps falling through the same portal or planar rift.
Brian James has suggested, if I recall, that the Northmen who settled Illusk were not of Earth origin but rather were native Torilians from Anchorome or parts West across the Trackless Sea.
Regardless, I am just not aware of any other war god ever worshipped in Illusk, and that leads me to believe they adopted or incorporated the Talfiric gods early on.
As for Coramshan, as far as I know, no source names a separate war god for them. The only uniquely Coramshite gods we know for sure are Bhaelros (a cognate with, and possibly a fragment or alias of Talos/Gruumsh), Anach (or Anachtyr), and Ibrandul. Shar was probably part of their pantheon. Some gods had to have been trans-pantheonic. For instance, I feel certain they probably knew Jergal as well. It is possible that they knew Garagos, and that he could have served as their war god, but there is no lore I know of that speaks to it. But I think there are good odds that if they had a war god, it could have been Garagos. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 09:38:05
|
Coramshite bakkals worshipped dark gods (beside Bhaelros and Shar) that included archfiends, I thought Miska the Wolf-spider is a good candidate, tough my version of Calimshan is moved to the Eastern Realms.
Also several thousand years later under another bakkal dynasty the sun was worshipped in various aspects, including the god of war.
The Finns are too different from other Northmen to be considered imo. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 10:17:13
|
Actually, Brian had it where the last vestiges of an early, proto-Illusk culture (which I later dubbed the Posi-people) wound-up in Anchorome, after the sundering, not the other way around.
I also conjectured that the Finnish pantheon did indeed originate in the north, but further east, in the region around the Yal Tengri (the Great Ice Sea), because that is where we see a culture similar to the Russo-Finnish one (the early Raumvari people). They would have been contemporaries of the Posi-people - both cultures rising early-on around Toril's Arctic region (which wasn't an icecap then). If you take map-distortion into account, all of that area along the top edge of the official maps is MUCH closer together then it appears.
They would have been bronze-age and even eventually early iron-age cultures. At this time, the proto-Talfir people (whom I dubbed the Cortae) would have been far more primitive, being hunter-gatherers who migrated across the entire Faerū-Turan continent. Those humans would eventually evolve into a Celtic-like people, but not until after the Sundering shifted the planet and changed the climate, destroying the more advanced northern cultures.
After the Sundering, the Posi people became split into two groups - the Azu-Posi, and the Illu-Posi. The Azu-posi bacame natives of northern Anchorome, while the Faerūnian group eventually evolved into the Illuskans.
The dramatic climate shift also caused the formation of the Taan (endless wastes), and the Cortae culture divided into the western branch of Talfir-Cortae, and the eastern branch of Issa-Cortae (which still survives, nearly intact).
You also had the Haltai (oriental) people of the east, who were later mistakenly dubbed 'Lung' by the Imaskari, the Mujhari peoples of Zakhara and then later the Utter East and beyond, the Turami (an umbrella-term for many of the darker-skinned tribes of the south, some of which ended-up in maztica after the sundering), and the Ang of southern Kara-tur (Malatra Region).
According to my research, those 7 proto-groups formed the basis for every other ethnicity on Toril that we know of. As the centuries passed, various bloodlines became more and more convoluted, and there were many interloper-groups that confused matters even more.
Nearly all conjecture, mind you, based on the brief outline in Brian's original GHotR, Tom Costa's magnificent article on languages, and a LOT of my own research.
I really need to create a flow-chart with all the names and division-points. Its amazing who was related to who. For instance, the Netherease, Raumather, and Narfell civilizations were all related, hence their ability to use the same magic writing. the Imaskari, on the other hand, brought 'southern magic' up from Zakhara, which is why the magical writing of the south is quite different from that of the north.
Also different schools of thought regarding magic - the north had Wizards, while the south had Sorcerers (who specialized in elemental magic). I would surmise the elves influenced the northern magic quite a bit, while the Dgen (genies and their genasi offspring) influenced the southern.
Quite fascinating, really.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 10:28:21 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 11:14:28
|
| Recently I was researching all this stuff when trying to import some of Golarion's and RW cultures into the Realms but it's too much a mess and unbelievable. Dragon Annual, Rof and GhotR also had some contradictions (e.g. on Talfir). It was better to start from scratch. What were the seven proto-groups you discovered? |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 16:06:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Eric Boyd has speculated that the forebears of the Northmen that settled Illusk may have been Scandinavians from Earth that rowed through some kind of portal or planar rift that transported them to the Trackless Sea.
There is a 2e reference that says that "the Northmen (of the Moonshae Isles) worship a stormy aspect of Tempus, god of war, through their own shamans. These shamans promote those teachings of Tempus that support their view of the world as a victim waiting for the raiders' plundering hands." Understanding the term "stormy" literally, and considering the Scandinavian theory, another possibility came into my mind:
Since there is no "Tempus" in Scandinavian mythology, maybe the Illuskan predecessors could venerate another war/storm god - Thor, maybe? - and adopted the Talfirian Tempus when they arrived in the Realms and their prayers were not answered. Or maybe Tempus defeated this storm god (or an aspect of him), and the Northmen started worshipping the victorious Realmsian god: it could be occurred when the Talfirian and Illuskan pantheons merged.
It could explain why the Moonshae Northmen have berserkers in their midst, while Tyr is not a berserker war deity. Although I'm not saying it excludes the possibility of some early Northmen venerating the justice god back in this ancient past (for Tyr is not found among the Moonshae Northmen gods of the present).
Another, more complicated possibility could have Talos also involved in the storm god's demise, with Tempus opposing the Faerūnian stormlord and finally managing to absorb the defeated deity's energy and followers.
So, what would be cooler: Tempus beating Thor and absorbing his essence, or merging with him - maybe even with his consent - after his defeat by Talos in treacherous circumstances? Cause I think Thor - or another deity of war and storm - would allow himself being absorbed by Talos if there was only through might, and with no treachery involved. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 13 Jul 2010 00:49:28 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 11:48:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Recently I was researching all this stuff when trying to import some of Golarion's and RW cultures into the Realms but it's too much a mess and unbelievable. Dragon Annual, Rof and GhotR also had some contradictions (e.g. on Talfir). It was better to start from scratch. What were the seven proto-groups you discovered?
I noted a bunch of mistakes in RoF - they needed to talk to me.
Anyhow, these are the seven main racial groups, who most-likely evolved from a single progenitor-race:
1) Posi - Tall, blonde, blue-eyed - think classic Norse.
2) Raumvari - Slavic-like people who evolved at the time of the Posi, in the eastern realms
3) Cortae - primitive, Celtic-like people, tribal, venerated nature spirits
4) Haltai - Native Torilian Oriental-type people, short, with dark hair
5) Ang - the Haltai's southern neighbors - an Indian-like people, dark of skin, but with caucasian features
6) Turami - Dark-skinned tribal people, most of whom lived in the jungle regions of the deep south.
7) Mujhari - A Semite-like nomadic people, who were dispersed into other lands by Fate
Interlopers:
1) Mulan - a group of people 'kidnapped' from Earth's Middle east
2) Shou - a tall, large-eyed, red-haired people who eyes (but not ears) were reminiscent of an Elf's
3) *Dathites - a group suggested in lore, coming from the classic Mediterranean region of Earth
4) Eladrin - High-Elves from Faerie
4.5) Sylvan - Green-Elves, earlier arrivals from Faerie
5) Aberrations - Illithids, beholders, and Aboleth all fall under this heading
6) Dragonborn - recent arrivals from Abeir
7) Shalarin - A race of sea-people
Creator races:
1)Sarrukh - sauroid race
2)Le'Sahy - fey creator race
3)Batrachi - Amphibious race
4)Aearee - Avian race
Three other races worth mentioning, sometimes referred to as secondary creators by scholars:
1) Dragons - it appears Toril's dragons may not be native
3) Giants - cross-breeding responsible for many of FR's larger humanoids
3) *Rakshasa - Demonic race responsible for many of the beast-man crossbreeds found throughout the known worlds
Items denoted with a '*' are almost pure conjecture, so should be considered Homebrew. Evidence of both exists, but it is barely apparent. While nearly all of this is technically homebrew, the rest is at least based on a decent number of facts and lore.
Some of the names for the proto-human groups are still in-use today for certain peoples; these are terms modern Sages assign to them, and not anything those groups may have called themselves. Almost no evidence of their cultures exist today, except in ancient draconic and elven writings, and scholars can only piece-together the barest facts about these early peoples.
The sharrans are the closest thing we have to the original Cortae people. Mazticans are a mixture of Turami and Cortae, many of which got trapped in that land when the Sundering occurred. Chultans would be the closet thing to the original Turami, while the Turmish people are a more advanced group of the same. The only 'pure blood' Posi still left would be the Reghedmen barbarians of the Frozen Far. The Mar of the utter east are a good example of the Ang, while the Semphari are an excellent example of a northern Mujhari culture (most still residing in Zakhara). the Halati are the 'common man' of Kara-Tur, whilst the Shou have inter-mingled with them, more noticable in some regions then others, and the aristocracy all lay claim to some Shou blood. Tuigan are mostly of the Haltai blood, but the Tabot people are of a sub-group called Kao - mixed Ang and Haltai. The folks of Rashemen, aside from the Rus-admixture, are fairly close to what I picture the original Raumvari to be like. The people of Amlorel (Lake of mists) are related, but more gypsy-like in appearance and culture.
The 'Dathites', if they truly did exist, were an early attempt at dimensional slavery by the Imaskari, that failed when those rather warlike people rebelled and fled west. You can see bits of their culture in Chondath and Chessenta. The height of their culture was Jhaamdath.
It is unknown weather halflings, dwarves, and gnomes are aboriginal. I would hazard to guess the halflings are, and seemed to have been brought up to Faerun from Zakhara with the Dgen. Of course, they could have also been brought from somewhere else to Zakhara originally. The dwarves are also an ancient race, but seemed to have suddenly appeared all at once at a a particular time, which suggests further interloping. Either way, Torillian Dwarves originated in the Yehimals, but where from before that is anyone's guess.
Gnomes are a complete unknown. Some scholars have suggested that Gnomes were kidnapped from some other world by the Nethrease, in much the same way the Imaskari kidnapped the Mulan. However, Elves claim to have had inter-action with them prior to the rise of Netheril, so their origins are still shrouded in mystery, and the Gnomes themselves aren't telling.
Orcs, Gnolls, and Goblinoids are also problematic - Gnolls apparently date to the time of the creator races, and yet, they are not listed with them. If Elves arrived from 'elsewhere', then it stands to reason that Orcs did too (they seem to follow each other everywhere in the multiverse). Goblins, on the other hand, appear to be native - perhaps a simple matter of parallel evolution (by divine hands?)
Once you add deities into all this, it just makes matters even more confusing - EVERY race may have been brought to Toril at some point by 'the gods', or conversely, the Gods could have been brought to Toril by the need created as civilizations rose.
Or both... or neither... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 18:06:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
1) Dragons - it appears Toril's dragons may not be native.
...
The dwarves are also an ancient race, but seemed to have suddenly appeared all at once at a a particular time, which suggests further interloping. Either way, Torillian Dwarves originated in the Yehimals, but where from before that is anyone's guess.
...
Gnomes are a complete unknown. Some scholars have suggested that Gnomes were kidnapped from some other world by the Nethrease, in much the same way the Imaskari kidnapped the Mulan. However, Elves claim to have had inter-action with them prior to the rise of Netheril, so their origins are still shrouded in mystery, and the Gnomes themselves aren't telling.
...
Orcs, Gnolls, and Goblinoids are also problematic.(...) If Elves arrived from 'elsewhere', then it stands to reason that Orcs did too.
The dragons appear in the Realms after the "Tearfall", and there is a hint that the events in the Candlekeep Compendium Vol. IV, in which Asgorath brings the dragons after being summoned by the batrachi creator race, could be true. But I don't think it's canon.
The dwarves settlements also simply "appear" in the Yehimal, and from there they spread through the world. Their legends say they were created back then, but there is no clue if they just came from another plane.
Some sages say the gnomes were CREATED by the Netherese, and they of course deny it. In fact, it seems the Netherese were responsible for the creation of the Spriggan, corrupting the gnomes and turning them in a highly magical and evil race, that then adopted the savage Urdlen as their main deity. The first historical citation of gnomes tells that they were SLAVED by the Netheril wizards. Before that, there is only their mythological origin, in opposition with the origin of the kobolds.
Orcs, ogres and their kin are not present in the world before or during the Times of Thunder (just like elves, dwarves and gnomes), but orcs specifically were summoned in great scale to fight in the Mulhorand wars. But at least some of them venerated Herne/Malar a long time before these conflicts (see Evermeet: Island of Elves).
Well, but all of this would be in another topic named "Origins of the Peoples of Faerūn" or something like that...
As for the "Origin of Tempus", his holy symbol or anything else related to this powerful and fascinating deity, any of you would have something more to add here? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 13 Jul 2010 18:15:50 |
|
|
|
Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 18:42:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
1) Dragons - it appears Toril's dragons may not be native.
...
The dwarves are also an ancient race, but seemed to have suddenly appeared all at once at a a particular time, which suggests further interloping. Either way, Torillian Dwarves originated in the Yehimals, but where from before that is anyone's guess.
...
Gnomes are a complete unknown. Some scholars have suggested that Gnomes were kidnapped from some other world by the Nethrease, in much the same way the Imaskari kidnapped the Mulan. However, Elves claim to have had inter-action with them prior to the rise of Netheril, so their origins are still shrouded in mystery, and the Gnomes themselves aren't telling.
...
Orcs, Gnolls, and Goblinoids are also problematic.(...) If Elves arrived from 'elsewhere', then it stands to reason that Orcs did too.
The dragons appear in the Realms after the "Tearfall", and there is a hint that the events in the Candlekeep Compendium Vol. IV, in which Asgorath brings the dragons after being summoned by the batrachi creator race, could be true. But I don't think it's canon.
The dwarves settlements also simply "appear" in the Yehimal, and from there they spread through the world. Their legends say they were created back then, but there is no clue if they just came from another plane.
Some sages say the gnomes were CREATED by the Netherese, and they of course deny it. In fact, it seems the Netherese were responsible for the creation of the Spriggan, corrupting the gnomes and turning them in a highly magical and evil race, that then adopted the savage Urdlen as their main deity. The first historical citation of gnomes tells that they were SLAVED by the Netheril wizards. Before that, there is only their mythological origin, in opposition with the origin of the kobolds.
Orcs, ogres and their kin are not present in the world before or during the Times of Thunder (just like elves, dwarves and gnomes), but orcs specifically were summoned in great scale to fight in the Mulhorand wars. But at least some of them venerated Herne/Malar a long time before these conflicts (see Evermeet: Island of Elves).
Well, but all of this would be in another topic named "Origins of the Peoples of Faerūn" or something like that...
As for the "Origin of Tempus", his holy symbol or anything else related to this powerful and fascinating deity, any of you would have something more to add here?
In RE: The orcs summoned to fight in the Mulhorandi wars; IIRC, those are 'Grey Orcs', and are a different subrace from the generic orcs found across the rest of Faerun. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:17:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Orcs, ogres and their kin are not present in the world before or during the Times of Thunder (just like elves, dwarves and gnomes), but orcs specifically were summoned in great scale to fight in the Mulhorand wars. But at least some of them venerated Herne/Malar a long time before these conflicts (see Evermeet: Island of Elves).
Those were the Grey orcs - thanks for the notation. Grey orcs are NOT native, the were Interlopers from Azeroth ( ).
Green Orcs are native, but not aboriginal. Red Orcs & Black Orcs were created by Thayans, Ogrillon & Orogs by crossbreeding, and the Ondonti are Fey, which makes it likely they are a more recent arrival from Faerie (where I suspect the original Orcs were from as well - the ancient strife between Corellon and Gruumsh had to begin somewhere). Skro are not native, and do not appear in large-enough numbers in the Realms to be worth consideration. Sharakim are not canon in the realms, only core, BUT the group of (long-lost) Orcs that were introduced in The Orc King (IIRC) would be a good candidate (although as far as we know, they are all gone now).
Goblins also come in at least 5 varieties, and some, like the Xvart, appear to be crossbreeds. The 'Blues' appear to be some sort of throwback to an earlier, more advanced Goblinoid.
And to get this back on-topic, since I theorize that FR's 'Norse-like' race had its beginnings during the First Flowering (the humans that are mentioned in that short story about Dragon Kingdoms, that has a few anachronisms in it), then they pre-date Earth's Norse culture, and therefore I believe that Earth's Norse gods are actually the Interlopers.
Planeswalking is a two-way street.
The beauty of that is that their pantheon (the Aesir) is already a mix with a different, fey group (the Vanir), so the Vikings were clever enough to allow for the D&D Cosmology several milenia before Gygax dreamed it up.
The way I see it, there is a set number of proto-gods - TRUE Gods - that exist somewhere, that represent all of the most basic concepts of the universe; Life, Death, War, Light, Darkness, Law, Chaos, Decay, Time, Space, etc...
Whenever a new deity is needed in a sphere, two things can happen. Either an interloper sends a single Avatar of its own to that world, where it grows into a seperate divine being (or withers and dies for lack of worship), OR, a brand-new deity is created from an Avatar of a Proto-God. This Avatar is not weak (demi-god DR) like the ones in the first case, but rather fully-formed deities with Avatars of their own. Basically, the proto-Gods (which I refer to as Elder Gods, or 'Conceptuals') are the "gods of the gods". A third alternative would be for a mortal to ascend, which requires an Overgod to infuse it with a tiny bit of its own divine power (and also requires the sponsorship of an already-existing deity).
Somewhere between those two cosmic levels are the Primordials - manifestations of physcical concepts, the building-blocks of the Universe - and the Spheric Gaurdians, better known as 'over-Gods'. These beings were created before mortals were, and therefor require no worship, and represent a more alien mindset then deities.
What does all that have to do with the topic? Well, rather then sit here and wonder weather Tyr and some others came from Earth, or if the earth pantheons themselves came from elsewhere, this format allows us to see that each spheric reprentation of a deity is cut from the same cloth, as it were, from an even more ancient, basic power.
Which is why we get all the similarities, including the names in some cases. It also allows us to better understand how dead deities can 'come back' - the original power is still out there, somewhere. That means that the deity we think is the same is really just a 'clone' of the original - I believe there is one canon example of a living deity having a 'corpse' floating in the astral.
So 'the gods' that mortals are used to are really nothing more then tiny bits of real Gods that have broken-off, and they are constantly merging, re-forming, and breaking back apart again, in an amoeboidic, cell-like fashion.
"And the universe is laughing behind our backs" --- Deteriorata |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 19:21:53 |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 20:20:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And to get this back on-topic, since I theorize that FR's 'Norse-like' race had its beginnings during the First Flowering (the humans that are mentioned in that short story about Dragon Kingdoms, that has a few anachronisms in it), then they pre-date Earth's Norse culture, and therefore I believe that Earth's Norse gods are actually the Interlopers.
Let's put some spice here: Markustay, do you remember some references that say that Elminster have portals linked to his hideout in Realmspace, to Ed Greenwood's library and to Yellowstone Park in the 1800s? I think it's canon... And the portals link the Sage of Shadowdale to different times in our world.
If a mortal - albeit a very special one - can open portals that can access the same planet in different times, why portals opened by true deities - or those crossed by accident, no matter who opened they - would be restricted by the laws of time?
Being so, maybe there would be no anachronism, for time would be no more a relevant variable here. Although I DO like your concept of interloper deities coming from another worlds to our Earth. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 21:03:34
|
I have nothing against 'time portals' - in fact, I used a canon one as the basis for my one and only CKC article.
Brian James took exception to that - he doesn't care for time travel - and instead over-wrote what I did in his Moonshaes article, which uses a 'history repeats itself' theme instead. I personally find it harder to believe that the same two groups of people could have 'made friends' twice (the novels indicate NO previous relationship!) then that a group of seafarers stumbled into the CANON time portal Umberlee's Fist, but to each his own.
I put a LOT of effort into smoothing-over a lore anomaly, and it was all wiped-out in the blink of an eye.
So that is why I avoid time-travel explanations whenever possible.
BTW, that is how I originally pictured it, way back when I first started piecing-together the migratory patterns of early Faerunian groups. I had assumed a group of Norse 'fell-into' the Realms at some point, and had traveled there from a point only a thousand years in our past.
Three other worthy explanations -
1)time does not run the same on the two worlds. This could even be backed-up by the meta-gaming ruling that the setting moved forward 1 year for every 3 years of our time (but if you think about it, if that were a constant ratio, then our Norse would be even worse-off time-wise).
2)The gods of the Norse pantheon DO NOT date back to the time of the Posi. Logically, those early people probably venerated totemic spirits early-on. The arrival of the Norse pantheon could have been at around the same time as our RW Vikings - nothing says Tyr was around before the fall of Netheril, AFAIK. The Finnish Pantheon, on the other hand, would have arrived earlier. Kiputytto seems to have been the 'disease goddess of choice' before Talona. Since Talona destroyed Kippuytto soon after the fall of Netheril, there may be some connection between the Finnish pantheon and the Netherease.
3) The Aesir arrived on Earth and in the Realms at the same time, from elsewhere. This theory corresponds to my earlier musings that all gods are actually interlopers. This would also explain why the Earth-version may have merged with the fey pantheon, because both were 'waning' with the advent of Christianity.
All theories - as with everything divine, nothing is set in stone, nor should it ever be.
Edit: Continuing with this train of thought, I went looking for a Finnish War God, so I might find a way of seeing further ways of linking the Netherease (who are ancient Raumvari decendants, after all) to that Pantheon. I found Tursas, and here's what it had to say - "the Tavastian god of war. May be same as the Norse Tyr and the Germanic Tīwaz."
VERY intersting... Targus... Tursas... Tyr... hmmmm...
BTW, the connection to the Raumvari comes from the fact that the people of Seventon (pre-Netherease) were descendants of migrating Gur barbarians that settled in the Anauroch region. Gur are originally from the Taan (wastes), where a tribe of them live to this day. That part is all canon (although it can be argued that the two tribes of Gur are unrelated).
Seems like my Netherease-Finnish connection may bear more fruit then I had thought. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 21:29:44 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 00:19:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Let's put some spice here: Markustay, do you remember some references that say that Elminster have portals linked to his hideout in Realmspace, to Ed Greenwood's library and to Yellowstone Park in the 1800s? I think it's canon... And the portals link the Sage of Shadowdale to different times in our world.
The reference is in the Realmspace accessory for Spelljammer. Whether or not it can be taken as a canon source of Realmslore is questionable... Some of the Spelljammer books had material that flat out contradicted established lore for other campaign settings -- like the reference, in Krynnspace, to Krynn's three moons remaining forever equidistant from each other.
I don't know of any lore in Realmspace that is flat out wrong, and I do know of at least one bit that became canon Realmslore (Selūne's surface being obscured by an illusion). But there's other lore in that book (like Nimbral being a major spelljamming port) that is not backed up by any Realms-specific source. Between that and the fact that some of the lore is hard to explain (why would Leira have a bunch of worshippers on a celestial body named for someone else?), I hold that book in a special category. As far as I'm concerned, anything dealing with Toril or its immediate orbit is questionable, but everything else is valid. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jul 2010 00:21:35 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 00:20:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The way I see it, there is a set number of proto-gods - TRUE Gods - that exist somewhere, that represent all of the most basic concepts of the universe; Life, Death, War, Light, Darkness, Law, Chaos, Decay, Time, Space, etc...
The Dragonstar setting had a similar idea. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 02:05:10
|
Giantcraft states "At almost the same time Ostoria was founded--or so say the giants--the first dragons started hatching all across Faerūn. Of course, no one knows the exact origins of dragonkind, but the venerable legends of the giants speak of dragon eggs raining down upon Toril like meteors. To this day, some of the less enlightened giant tribes believe the stars in the sky are dragon queens preparing to scatter their eggs across the heavens."
The Draconomicon (1e), can't find my book at the moment so I don't have the exact quote, but it had a legend about Asgorath shattering a crystal sun, the shards of which pierced her flesh, and dragons were born from the drops of her blood.
Dragons of Faerūn states "In the wake of the Days of Thunder, dragons rose to rule Faerūn. Elven myth, recored in the form of the Parwiccan Cycle, speaks of the Tearfall, thought to refer to a rain of meteors that fell from the sky. Some scholars interpret the ancient texts as suggesting the meteors precipitated a dramatic climatic change, which in turn sparked the rapid evolution of proto-dragons (little more than large lizards) into the varied forms of dragonkind known today. Others claim that he meteors were in fact falling dragon eggs, from which the varied races of dragonkind were born into this world."
In the Twilight Giants series (I want to say it's in Titans of Twilight, but I can't recall offhand, it may also be repeated in the Sea of Fallen Stars box set) there's a story about the gods dropping a star on a titan kingdom, which carves out the Sea of Fallen Stars. The star rolls into the sea and the titans go chasing after it and are all drowned.
Grand History of the Realms states that circa -31,000 DR "scholars now speculate that at about this date a comet or ice moon fell from the sky, devastating much of Abeir-Toril, and refer to this event as the Tearfall. The four Inner Seas merge together to form the body of water known today as the Sea of Fallen Stars. Tens of thousands of dragon eggs soon hatch across Toril." It also states that circa 31500 DR "Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High Ones reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo."
GHOTR also relates an account by Bazim-Gorag, who claims to be a Batrachi lord who ruled vast lands during the Batrachi empire. He is reported to say that "the fool Zhoukoudien threw our empire away in an imprudent conflict with the Jotunbrud."
4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide states "In the final days of the batrachi civilization (c. 31,000 DR), an unimaginable catastrophe struck Toril. It is said that the amphibioids were waging a losing war against the titan armies of Annams brood. In their desperation, the batrachi performed an epic ritual of summoning that released several primordials from their imprisonment. The gods quickly moved against their ancient foes, resulting in terrible earthquakes, fires, and windstorms that swept across the planet. During the tumult, a primordial calling herself Asgoroth the World Shaper even hurled an ice moon at Toril, intent on destroying the world she couldnt claim as her own."
Anyway, those are the sources that support the lore. The Batrachi fought a war with a kingdom of Titans. They summoned primordials to fight for them, releasing Asgorath. Asgorath pulled an ice moon from the sky, which shattered, creating the Tears of Selūne and raining meteors down on Faerūn. Impacts from the "falling stars" carved the great Inner Sea, and killed off the race of Titans. Dragon eggs either rained down with the meteors, or the epic magic transformed terrestrial (torilstrial?) lizard eggs into dragons. The resulting seven year winter killed off what was left of the Batrachi, except for those who fled to the planes, including Bazim-Gorag. They settled in a plane called Limbo, where they became the Neraphim (often confused with Slaadi). The plane was redubbed by Cyric as his Supreme Throne when he fled there circa 1370 DR. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 14 Jul 2010 02:07:46 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 02:19:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know of any lore in Realmspace that is flat out wrong, and I do know of at least one bit that became canon Realmslore (Selūne's surface being obscured by an illusion). But there's other lore in that book (like Nimbral being a major spelljamming port) that is not backed up by any Realms-specific source. Between that and the fact that some of the lore is hard to explain (why would Leira have a bunch of worshippers on a celestial body named for someone else?), I hold that book in a special category. As far as I'm concerned, anything dealing with Toril or its immediate orbit is questionable, but everything else is valid.
I wouldn't be so quick dismiss most of the inconsistencies in that tome. Granted, some of them seem strange, and entirely unconnected with established Realmslore, but they haven't exactly been proven to be incorrect either. And as the aspect of lore about Selūne's surface proves, there is still room to promote these kinds of lore snippets, into more complete Realmslore, should they be included in the setting material proper.
Instead, I look at Realmspace, usually, as "potential Realmslore," where appropriate, unless officially proven otherwise. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Jul 2010 02:20:19 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 23:13:31
|
You got me searching for something, and I inadvertantly found something else that pertains to this side-topic. Giantcraft, pg.7 -
"Soon, open warfare raged between giants and dragonkind, with the rich resources of Faerūn awaiting the victor. These epic clashes are well documented in the classical ballads of dwarves, elves, and the giants themselves."
Accent, mine. A reference to the dwarves having witnessed the Thousand year War, which took place between -26,000 and -25,000 DR. That means the dwarves were around prior to -16,000 DR there's no way they wrote about something that happened 10,000 years before they existed on Toril!
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The Draconomicon (1e), can't find my book at the moment so I don't have the exact quote, but it had a legend about Asgorath shattering a crystal sun, the shards of which pierced her flesh, and dragons were born from the drops of her blood.
That story actually dove-tails fairly well with Torillian creation myths - both center around a 'destroyed sun'. Most people forget that Toril is on it's second sun (which works rather well, considering we have two sun gods).
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In the Twilight Giants series (I want to say it's in Titans of Twilight, but I can't recall offhand, it may also be repeated in the Sea of Fallen Stars box set) there's a story about the gods dropping a star on a titan kingdom, which carves out the Sea of Fallen Stars. The star rolls into the sea and the titans go chasing after it and are all drowned.
I can't recall this at all, and I've read that series twice, the second time fairly recently. Just checked the Sea of falling stars tome (not box ) , and the Giantcraft book, and don't see it in either of them, although it could be hidden in some smaller entry, rather then where the rest of the history is listed. I'll try Pirates of the Fallen Stars next, although an unlikely source, you never know - there is a little bit about an ancient lost giant kingdom in there.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2010 23:14:06 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The origins of Tempus: Deities & Primordials
