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Tarrok of Halruaa
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:12:14
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Am I the only one who would like to see more information (possibly in terms of a novel series) on Lathander/Amaunator? The Dawn Cataclysm isn't a particularly well fleshed out event, nor is the relatively recent transformation of Lathander to Amaunator...
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:16:39
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| Nope, you're not the only one. I'd read a novel about that. |
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Tarrok of Halruaa
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:19:50
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How about you write a novel about that?  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:42:56
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| I would also be very interested on reading up more about this. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:53:12
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WotC won't even nail down a timeframe for the Dawn Cataclysm, sticking with the "it happened outside of time" explanation (an explanation I heartily detest).
If they won't even give it an official firm date (though in my opinion, the available lore points to between 700 and 712 DR), I doubt we'll ever see anything more than a passing mention of it. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 19:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC won't even nail down a timeframe for the Dawn Cataclysm, sticking with the "it happened outside of time" explanation (an explanation I heartily detest).
If they won't even give it an official firm date (though in my opinion, the available lore points to between 700 and 712 DR), I doubt we'll ever see anything more than a passing mention of it.
Yet it still remains NDA - very archaic to have this as such. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 00:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC won't even nail down a timeframe for the Dawn Cataclysm, sticking with the "it happened outside of time" explanation (an explanation I heartily detest).
If they won't even give it an official firm date (though in my opinion, the available lore points to between 700 and 712 DR), I doubt we'll ever see anything more than a passing mention of it.
Yet it still remains NDA - very archaic to have this as such.
Not really. As Eric Boyd pointed out long ago, there is the theory that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated.
I know a few scribes have a problem with this interpretation, and while I was leaning toward it myself for a time, I find that I prefer nailing down an exact [or as close to exact] date for the event. But, overall, and considering Eric's wise words, I think that's explanation enough, for now. Or at least until Wizards attempts to shed further light on the subject. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Light- very punny of you, Sage.... Personally, I don't even know what it is/was, so it doesn't bother me much.
It's largely supposed to be an event that we know little about. And what little we do actually know about the Dawn Cataclysm has been revealed in both Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons.
We do know that Murdane was killed during this event, and it was also around this time that the division of Tyche occured -- resulting in the creation of both Tymora and Beshaba. However, it's been said that this division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 06:39:39
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Moander was instrumental in Tyche's split. He was still an active god during the DC?
Wooly — you speculate a date of 700-712DR ... based on which sourcebook data? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 09:05:30
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| I'm glad that the date of DC has remained a mystery. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 11:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Moander was instrumental in Tyche's split. He was still an active god during the DC?
Wooly — you speculate a date of 700-712DR ... based on which sourcebook data?
Prior references to the Dawn Cataclysm have stated that it presaged the fall of Myth Drannor. Faiths & Avatars tells us Tyche was sundered into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm (it happened during the DC, but it doesn't appear related to the DC). The 3E FRCS describes a schism in Tyche's church, with people turning to either Tymora or Beshaba, and says it happened in the 700s DR.
Me, I'm thinking the schism would have happened almost immediately after the birth of the luck goddesses. And the fall of Myth Drannor began in 712 DR. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:42:46
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| To add to the problem is that Wizards is looking a lot more forwards than backwards as it pertains to realmslore and realms products. There is a vast ammount of historical potential for them to work with, but the future is where they see the dollars I guess. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 14:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrok of Halruaa
Am I the only one who would like to see more information (possibly in terms of a novel series) on Lathander/Amaunator? The Dawn Cataclysm isn't a particularly well fleshed out event, nor is the relatively recent transformation of Lathander to Amaunator...
I'd love to know more about this, if only to know when Tyche was split.
"Outside of the timestream" seems odd. Tyche was still herself when the kingdom of the stag (Elminster's birthplace) was around, and if it "presaged the fall of Myth Drannor" then it can't be all that long ago.
But yeah, I'd wish they'd flesh out a lot of things. I'd want to see the Dawn Cataclysm for sure, but also many of the things that happened during or immediately before the spellplague.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 19:31:54
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| I'll take another look through Tymora's Luck to see if a more exact date can be determined. I think F&A and FRCS were both published after the novel. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 21:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'll take another look through Tymora's Luck to see if a more exact date can be determined. I think F&A and FRCS were both published after the novel.
I've read that novel in the last year, and I don't recall anything more than a passing reference to the DC, and I don't recall any timeframe being offered for Tyche's split. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 22:05:26
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My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
[Edit]
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Feb 2011 22:10:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 23:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
[Edit]
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon.
Jeff Grubb is sadly not present here; I once dropped him a line, inviting him to join us, but did not get a reply. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 00:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
Ed's remained somewhat quiet on the issue of the Dawn Cataclysm... instead deferring to Eric Boyd for the most part. Unfortunately, Eric is no longer as active here at Candlekeep as he used to be.
I also once contacted Jeff Grubb to join us here at Candlekeep, but at the time, he simply replied that his scheduled, unfortunately, prevented him from engaging frequently at this site.
quote:
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon.
It's the 22nd, and it's canon. See Tymora's entry in Faiths & Avatars. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Tarrok of Halruaa
Acolyte
United Kingdom
37 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 17:55:09
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| What about the transformation of Lathander into Amaunator? Is anything more known about that other than what is in the FR 4e source book? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrok of Halruaa
What about the transformation of Lathander into Amaunator? Is anything more known about that other than what is in the FR 4e source book?
Not much, beyond what's written in the 4e material. It was tinkered with, and partially hinted at in previous material, like 3e's Power of Faerûn, but that's about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Feb 2011 00:13:49 |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:09:15
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| I guess that Paul S. Kemp's new novel The Cycle of Night will reveal some of the change from Lathander to Amaunator. There were some notes about that before in the Shadow War Triology. |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:25:42
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| You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing. 
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:51:28
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Huh, I've always pronounced it the way they are..... or maybe ti-chi. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing.
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Huh, I've always pronounced it the way they are..... or maybe ti-chi. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing.
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key.
I've maintained "Ty-kay" in my Realms, but "Tyke" almost everywhere else in the multiverse. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:45:10
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| Tyche, as google says the Greeks say it. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Feb 2011 02:47:58 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 08:57:30
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It's closer to ''tee-hee'', without the ''k'', lol.
As far as I remember from a Linear B class.
In truth there are no wrong or right ways to pronounce. |
Edited by - Quale on 18 Feb 2011 20:26:48 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 20:59:48
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| I've always said TIE-kee, rhymes with Nike. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 21:23:24
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I don't really care for time-paradox explanations myself, but when discussing FR, time travel/portals are canon (The Chronomancer was Netherease!), and therefor are a legitimate line of reasoing.
Here's how I look at it: At the very beginning of time, something MAJOR happened, and time was derailed (the original Sundering by Ao, which was merely 'echoed' in the Elven Sundering). Ergo, there is a world that exists, and also at least one 'alternate path' of 'might-have-beens'. Some residual 'ghost' of this 'true timeline' lingers on still, and folks of uber power - like gods - can tap-into it (which is precisely what I think Lathander did).
So its not so much a Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure or Back to the Future hokey model we are working with (which is probably why so many people hate it), but rather a path of prophesy, which is an accepted fantasy Trope.
I believe Shar did this as well, with her Black Chronology; gods can see alternate futures and attempt to steer the world down them. They can also tamper with the past, up to a point, but I think even deities suffer the paradox problem: they can't do anything that would stop them from having to tamper in the first place (which usually means the tampering would fail, because that's pretty hard to do). Even gods have to follow the laws of time, despite being able to supercede it (through desperation and much sacrifice, I'm thinking).
When you tinker with time, You wind up with very unpredictable results (the Butterfly Effect), as Lathander found out when he tried to make a change and wound-up splitting Tyche in half (which I'm not sure is what he actually meant to do). My theory is that Lathander was trying to change whatever circumstances caused him, Amaunator, and Jergal to share the 'Day' portfolio. I've discussed my theories on this elsewhere; at the time Wooly has pinpointed, one of the three - Dawn, Midday, and Dusk - was saying goodbye and a new one was rising (I picture 333 1/3 years for a complete cycle, with two deities always being present during a cycle). I'm Not sure how all that works out in the FR timeline, though - Jergal and Aumanator were both present during Nethril - and that would mean each deity got to be around for 666 years (doesn't that work-out kinda pleasing in an evil sort of way?)
So one deity is always 'sitting fallow' for a 1/3 of a millenium. At least, that's how I see it, which is not entirely canon. You could even drop the 1/3 year and say that between each 333 year period is four months where all three are active (getting their affairs in order), like the waxing and waning of the moon (with one growing more powerful as another grows feeble). That could be one of those times when Lathander tried to pull-off the Dawn Cataclysm (which was unsuccessful, IIRC). Since Aumanator replaces Lathander (which we know from the end of 3e into 4e), that must mean Lathander replaced Jergal (or whoever he duped into becoming dusk lord) in the cycle, and day (Aumanator) gives way to the Night (Jergal). It also means that one god is at their zenith Halway through (333 years), precisely when the other two are at their weakest (waxing and waning).
Its far from perfect, and I don't really care for that lore myself, but it is what it is. I am going to have to chart this on a timeline - it's hard to picture. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2011 01:48:07 |
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Lathander/Amaunator
