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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 11:41:20
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Not sure if this is the right subforum to ask this, but I was wondering if there are any references about planewalking in the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks and, more importantly, novels. There are some famous characters who are apparently regarded as being planewalkers, like the Simbul, Elminster and Mintassan the Magnificent. The Forgotten Realms wiki is my reference here, so it might not be entirely accurate.
I believe the "Manual of the Planes" (3e) and the "Planar Handbook" (3.5e) contain references regarding the workings of planar travel. But I wonder if there are any (detailed) descriptions of the mechanics of planewalking in Forgotten Realms lore?
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Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 12:54:34
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| It's scattered throughout the lore, but yeah, there are many references to traveling to and from the planes. And the novels Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck happen almost exclusively among the planes. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 13:26:37
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Plus the Infinite Staircase reaches into the Realms, as first seen in the Avatar trilogy and later expanded upon in its own Planescape book and the For Duty and Deity FR adventure.
There's an awful lot of planewalking going on, often behind the scenes. Sometimes, though it's right out in front, like the Harpstar Wars, which was essentially Harpers vs. Malaugrym in the Demiplane of Shadows and raged for decades. Check Code of the Harpers for specifics, or Elfsong for rumors and mentions. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 13:38:15
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The planes changed a lot between different editions of the game. The 1st had the "DM's Guide", "Deities and Demigods" and the "Manual of the Planes" as references, and after long years not dealing with it (for religious problems, I think, of dealing with creeds, angels, demons and the like), the 2nd edition came with "Legends & Lore" and, finally, with the Planescape Setting.
Planescape saw the entire AD&D "multiverse" as but one thing, and put the deities from different worlds more or less in the same planes structure. They kinda made all worlds one, uniting them like Spelljammer did before, but in a different scope. Of course, since the worlds and its deities, heavens and hells were developed independently, they met some inconsistencies, and so they stated there were facts that only planars knew, and many "mistakes from clueless primers".
Planescape was basically a terror setting, althought more of a medieval "Hellraiser", "Event Horizon" or "Pan's Labyrinth" style, in contrast to the classic terror of the Ravenloft setting. There were a lot of books that dealed with the physical and magical effects of the planes (and its influences on the PCs spells and itens), and one of the books (a very good one, IMO) was the "Planewalker's Guide". Since Planescape intertwined all the worlds' planes, there are lots of references to the FR deities (and their domains) there. But maybe the best of them is "In Hallowed Ground".
The Faiths & Avatars series, that dealt with the deities of the Forgotten Realms in 2nd edition, mentioned the realm of each deity in the planes, but usually it was only a quick reference. Another plane reference was "Chronomancer", that briefly quotes the FR time planewalkers. And the aforementioned "For Duty and Deity" dealt with a crossover between the Forgotten Realms and the Planescape Setting.
The 3.X editions separated the worlds, mythologies and planes, so they are totally independent. The 3rd edition Manual of the Planes is more of a guide to different cosmologies, and in this way far different from the former editions. But still, maybe the best books are the FR Campaign Setting and "Faiths & Pantheons". I still don't know how 4th edition is dealing with this issue, but I think the 3.X structure will be mantained.
For FR novels, I'd look for the Avatar trilogy and its sequels, and maybe Elminster in Hell, thoug I haven't read this one. There is a series that tells the stories of a FR tiefling, and the Baldur's Gate that is about the sons of a god, but I don't know how much they concern the planes. I'm sure there is more recent novels about that matter, but I don't know them, so let's wait for more answers to your question.
Hope that helps you a bit, Mensch!
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 Jun 2010 14:27:00 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 00:52:27
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| Start with "From the City of Brass to Dead Orc Pass" in Dragon #37 and read on through. Huge subject, which both the Realms' name and much of what goes on among its politically and magically mighty is based on, and one that's never been tackled head-on, partly because TSR gave Planescape ownership of the concept in the 1990s -- both Gary and Ed's versions were eclipsed, and the spotlight never came back. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 15:06:44
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You'll find more references in Planescape books, where some of the primes from Toril have become famous, e.g. there's Arwyl (sp?) from Cormyr who leads a planar faction or duke Rowan who cause the Faction War, or Lissandra the Gateseeker ...
Another planar novel is Glass Prison by Monte Cook.
In FR there's many references about Planewalking usually about high level mages, particularly with the Imaskari, or the Netherese (Shade and Opus enclaves). Some other notable NPCs are Nezram the Worldwalker, or the Rashemi witch Nythra.
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 10:10:26
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Thanks for all the input sofar! I'll put some of the books mentioned on my reading list. Most are out of print, I believe. Luckily, second hand copies of Finder's Bane are quite cheap, for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Planescape saw the entire AD&D "multiverse" as but one thing, and put the deities from different worlds more or less in the same planes structure. They kinda made all worlds one, uniting them like Spelljammer did before, but in a different scope. Of course, since the worlds and its deities, heavens and hells were developed independently, they met some inconsistencies, and so they stated there were facts that only planars knew, and many "mistakes from clueless primers".
I've always liked Planescape. The campaign setting is great and it also helps that one of the best CRPGs is set in that world. I like the concept of the Infinite Staircase
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
The 3.X editions separated the worlds, mythologies and planes, so they are totally independent. The 3rd edition Manual of the Planes is more of a guide to different cosmologies, and in this way far different from the former editions. But still, maybe the best books are the FR Campaign Setting and "Faiths & Pantheons". I still don't know how 4th edition is dealing with this issue, but I think the 3.X structure will be mantained.
I believe there's a 4th edition Manual of the Planes now, but I'm not sure if the Forgotten Realms are mentioned there.
Do you known how the change in cosmologies was explained/retconned when the transition from 2e to 3e happened? Are the events preceding or during the Time of Troubles responsible for the shift, just like the Spellplague is a device to introduce the 4e gameplay changes?
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
For FR novels, I'd look for the Avatar trilogy and its sequels, and maybe Elminster in Hell, thoug I haven't read this one. There is a series that tells the stories of a FR tiefling, and the Baldur's Gate that is about the sons of a god, but I don't know how much they concern the planes. I'm sure there is more recent novels about that matter, but I don't know them, so let's wait for more answers to your question.
I've played BG1 and 2 and it's pretty light on the planar travel. ;) There's a Spelljammer ship in the Underdark, I believe and you travel to a portion of the Nine Hells during the game.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Start with "From the City of Brass to Dead Orc Pass" in Dragon #37 and read on through. Huge subject, which both the Realms' name and much of what goes on among its politically and magically mighty is based on, and one that's never been tackled head-on, partly because TSR gave Planescape ownership of the concept in the 1990s -- both Gary and Ed's versions were eclipsed, and the spotlight never came back.
Wow! Very nice! Just read some bits in #37 and it seems very interesting. I'll see if I can dig up the whole string of articles.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In FR there's many references about Planewalking usually about high level mages, particularly with the Imaskari, or the Netherese (Shade and Opus enclaves). Some other notable NPCs are Nezram the Worldwalker, or the Rashemi witch Nythra.
Or those NPC detailed somewhere? I would love to read some of their backstories.
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Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 11:18:51
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I've played BG1 and 2 and it's pretty light on the planar travel. ;)
And what is Haer'dalis ? He's a tiefling from Sigil... isn't it planewalking? And the whole Watcher's Keep debacle is planewalking, at least for me. Otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to get lost in the maze of portals. And there's a Cambion inside and some tanar'ri and even Demogorgon. So that's planewalking for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In FR there's many references about Planewalking usually about high level mages, particularly with the Imaskari, or the Netherese (Shade and Opus enclaves). Some other notable NPCs are Nezram the Worldwalker, or the Rashemi witch Nythra.
Nezram is mentioned a lot in various sources, but I don't recalll his stats anywhere. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 11:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
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I've played BG1 and 2 and it's pretty light on the planar travel. ;)
And what is Haer'dalis ? He's a tiefling from Sigil... isn't it planewalking?
He's also a Bard and that's why I never had him in my party.  I believe the Haer'dalis sidequest takes you to another plane where some of the members of his troupe are imprisoned.
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And the whole Watcher's Keep debacle is planewalking, at least for me. Otherwise it wouldn't be so easy to get lost in the maze of portals. And there's a Cambion inside and some tanar'ri and even Demogorgon. So that's planewalking for me.
I rather hated Watcher's Keep, so I've conveniently forgotten about that one. It's heavy on portals, though, so you might be correct.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In FR there's many references about Planewalking usually about high level mages, particularly with the Imaskari, or the Netherese (Shade and Opus enclaves). Some other notable NPCs are Nezram the Worldwalker, or the Rashemi witch Nythra.
Nezram is mentioned a lot in various sources, but I don't recalll his stats anywhere.
Personally I would be more interested on lore on Nezram than his stats. Though a generic planewalker class might be interesting. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
Edited by - mensch on 05 Jul 2010 13:15:06 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 12:17:52
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Just remembered that the 2e "Forgotten Realms Adventures" accessory have some info about the "Hellriders of Elturel" being a company that went to the Nine Hells to rescue one of its members. However, their story is not detailed there, and I wonder where (and IF) it was told.
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
Do you known how the change in cosmologies was explained/retconned when the transition from 2e to 3e happened? Are the events preceding or during the Time of Troubles responsible for the shift...
I don't know of any explanation, but since I'm not very knowledgeable about the 3.X editions, maybe someone else can help. But, as far as I know (have some good friends that play and DM in 3.5), no explanations were given.
The Netheril - Empire of Magic boxed set tells the story of each of the most important archwizards, and one "Shadow", one of Karsus best students, was the planes' expert among them. It was his enclave that was sent to the (then called) Demiplane of Shadow just before the fall of Netheril (and this enclave was called Shade later).
There is a short story of an arcanist that lived there and fought a Shadow Dragon in the Realms of Shadow anthology, but he was transported there by the enclave's plane shift. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 Jul 2010 13:40:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 15:25:07
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The change in cosmologies from 2E's Great Wheel to 3E's Great Tree was never explained, other than the lame "mortals don't understand this stuff completely" explanation.
Masquerade, the last of the Alias and Dragonbait books, didn't feature any planewalking (unless you count a pocket dimension), but one of the characters was a planewalker. Just another reference to toss out there.
And there was an early planar book, OP1 Tales of the Outer Planes. It's a series of linked adventures. It's a 1E book, so it actually predates Planescape. And though it doesn't have the FR logo, it starts in the Realms -- Arabel, to be exact. There's an inn there, where the front door sometimes leads into a regular inn, and where it sometimes leads to the World Serpent Inn -- a place designed drop unsuspecting PCs into a planar adventure. This was also mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover, in the Arabel entry. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 16:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by mensch
Personally I would be more interested on lore on Nezram than his stats. Though a generic planewalker class might be interesting.
There was a planewalker class somewhere, but I don't recall where. Not Manual of Planes, surely. But maybe a WE to it? Or something? I know I have seen it... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 16:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The change in cosmologies from 2E's Great Wheel to 3E's Great Tree was never explained, other than the lame "mortals don't understand this stuff completely" explanation.
And I've provided some elaboration on the changes between editions for the planar cosmology of the Realms, in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct. See "Section D.1."
...
I'll point out, also, that Ed prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said:-
quote:
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 16:26:34
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| There's also a portal from Sigil, which by extension, allows access from the rest of the planar cosmological framework to Toril, under the Abbey of the Sword in Battledale. See the reference in Faiths & Pantheons on pg. 161 P3-Magic Portal -- note, though, as I said above, it's one-way, from Sigil to Toril. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 16:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
Personally I would be more interested on lore on Nezram than his stats. Though a generic planewalker class might be interesting.
There was a planewalker class somewhere, but I don't recall where. Not Manual of Planes, surely. But maybe a WE to it? Or something? I know I have seen it...
You might be thinking of the Planeshifter, from the 3e Manual of the Planes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 16:43:08
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| The Manual of the Planes (3.0) only lists a couple of prestige classes. The Planeshifter and Gatecrasher might apply. The 3.5e Planar Handbook lists Prestige Classes and introduces "planar class levels" for the regular core D&D classes. There are some homebrew Planewalker classes floating around, but I can't find anything official or playtested. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
Edited by - mensch on 05 Jul 2010 16:44:47 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2010 : 14:46:37
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There is a Planar Shephard from Eberron, overpowered. 3e Planescape Campaign Setting I think has some prestige classes, tough faction feats and abilities are more interesting.
About the NPCs, Nezram is in the Old Empires (and Lost Empires of Faerun I think), Nythra is in Spellbound, Lissandra in Faces of Sigil (my favorite book).
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Planewalking in the Realms
