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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 06:07:13
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| That's hard to imagine, save among those who tend to be good- or neutral-aligned, as blushing is often associated to traits absent in most drow societies: modesty, embarrassment, shame, love... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 06:25:41
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| Just was interested in that since one player I met RPs he blushes with cheeks getting brown. Now I wonder if it is possible. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 11:49:36
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| I'd say they can blush, but that you really wouldn't notice it unless using the heat-vision drow used to have (not sure if it was changed after 2E or not). |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 14:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's hard to imagine, save among those who tend to be good- or neutral-aligned, as blushing is often associated to traits absent in most drow societies: modesty, embarrassment, shame, love...
Of course, you can also get red with anger. That would be one trait definately associated with drow societies. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 15:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's hard to imagine, save among those who tend to be good- or neutral-aligned, as blushing is often associated to traits absent in most drow societies: modesty, embarrassment, shame, love...
Of course, you can also get red with anger. That would be one trait definately associated with drow societies.
Oh, that eluded me somehow. Yes, you're quite right. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 00:51:13
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And speaking of shame.... Since the topic got locked while I was in the middle of my post (and at the risk of getting my ONW topic locked) I decided to move my response here, simply for the sake of those who wish to see exactly what has been printed on the issue (and please, do NOT start any more debates, I just wanted to share this to try to clear up the confusion!)
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Nae, Scribe Therise. No "examples in the Drow novels of malicious gossip about possible incestuous interactions" have arisen. Can you name one?
(Page #and source, please)
(You'll note that the points described by poster Alystra Illianis were categorically disqualified)
Jarlaxle was Liriel's first lover. And also her uncle.
Also, published on 21 January, 2011, we have from Greenwood re: Drow
quote:
examples fom not only
For what it's worth, both Gary and I (how do I know this? we talked about it, over beer, at an early GenCon) envisaged the drow of the Vault (our first glimpse of them) as enjoying, not just tolerating, incest and murder and rape and all the rest. They were supposed to be depraved and EVIL, above all else. (And of course, that gets glossed over rather than highlighted in anything official published about them.
*added bold for emphasis
My points are disqualified? Why? They are DIRECT examples from both Homeland AND Dissolution! The following quote is from Homeland, Ch 3, page 36, in my copy of the Collector's Edition Dark Elf Trilogy:
"Vierna gasped audibly when she looked again upon her tiny brother and his striking lavender orbs.
'He is your brother,' Matron Malice reminded her, viewing Vierna's gasp as a hint of what might come. "When he grows older and those eyes pierce you so, remember, ON YOUR LIFE (emphasis mine) that he is your brother.'
Vierna turned away, almost blurting a reply she would have regretted making. Matron Malice's exploits with nearly very male soldier of the Do'Urden house- and many others that the seductive matron managed to sneak away from other houses- were almost legendary in Menzoerranzan. Who was she to to be spouting reminders of PRUDENT AND PROPER BEHAVIOR(again, emphasis mine)? Vierna bit her lip and hoped that neither Briza nor Malice had been reading her thoughts at that moment.
In Menzoberranzan, thinking such gossip about a high priestess, whether or not it was true, got you painfully executed."
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And two from Dissolution, Ch 3, pg 33 in my paperback copy: "Amazingly, he threw in with Sabal, who had all but abandoned hope of ever climbing higher than her current degraded estate. To this day, Greyanna could only explain his decision by positing a PERVERSE AND UNNATURAL BOND(my emphasis) between them, but whatever the reasons, with the help of Phaeraun's ideas, advocacy, and magic, Sabal essayed new ventures, succeeded brilliantly, and began to scale the ladder of status once more."
"Why, then, should the wizard not throw in with the stronger, shrewder sister who had risen to the top of House Mizzrym without his help? Think of the triumphs they could accomplish together! Though inwardly sickened by the prospect, she even smiled lasciviously and offered him the inducement she believed Sabal had given him.
Her brother laughed at her."
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And at the end of Dissolution, when Greyanna asks him why he chose her twin? Another quote that should make it clear that there was NEVER any incest involved in the first place- Ch 25, pg 371: "'If I'm to die, will you at least tell me why you chose Sabal over me? Was it fondness? Was it LUST(my emphasis)?'
'Neither,' Pharaun chuckled. 'My choice had nothing whatever to do with personalities. How could it, when you twins were so alike?'"
So it would seem that even in the only instances where it comes up AT ALL, all the parties involved appear to view the idea with distaste and derision, at best, if not outright abhorrence. Evil or not, even drow have standards, it would seem! Which pretty much trumps Ed's thoughts on the subject, since these are ALL in published lore on the subject. Not that his opinion is not valid, too, but Vault of the Drow was also a Grayhawk module, so not even sure if that applies to Faerun.
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As for drow blushing, it is true that they could become quite red with anger, at least in the heat spectrum, and I'm fairly sure they still use that, in spite of what 3rd ed seems to imply. Never understood that change, as it makes no sense in respect to everything that has been written about them. I'd have to say that they could indeed blush from embarrassment- mine does it all the time when in awkward situations- but one would never know it unless the lights go out!! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 05:27:28
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Aha. It looks like I missed some controversy. Good times.
I have a stupid question: Do gold golems exist?
If so, I need a rough synopsis of their (combat) capabilities. And, more importantly, I need to know how large they'd be, especially how much they would weigh and how much one would cost to purchase. Any pre-4E stats and descriptors would suffice, I'm adept at converting things into the "ruleset" I use.
To stem the inevitable questions about this odd request —
I have an NPC, an obscenely rich effeminate Zakharan art merchant who simply must have something like a gold golem. This NPC is decadent, garish, and ostentatious to the extreme. He has absolutely no practical sense for propriety, restraint, or judgement: to him the quality, aesthetics, or usefulness of things is of no importance at all, all that matters is how much they cost (and how expensive they look). I plan to "bribe" my poor PCs into guarding this lispy emotional merchant and his overpriced valuables as they travel by golden caravan from Tantras to Calaunt to Mulmaster, then by any ship they can find to the far shores of the Moonsea. (I'm subtly and inexorably steering them closer to Phlan, mwoohaha.)
A gold golem would be ideal. A golem of any kind is always useful. But a walking mountain of gold can only attract piles of greedy trouble from near and far. Incidentally, this entire region just happens to be notorious for its bandits, pirates, outlaws, and criminals of all sorts, not to mention all the organized evil and Red Wizards skulking about ... while these particular destinations are among the worst possible places on all of Toril to ever display any form of wealth, most especially when the treacherously opportunistic city officials and guardsmen can see it. Maybe Menzoberranzan is worse, though probably not by a lot.
I suppose gold golems might be impossible. Is a gold-plated iron golem feasible? Money is no object, I look at it as an investment in bait.  |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Feb 2011 05:42:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 05:44:13
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I would base a golden golem off of an iron golem. I'd make them slower (gold is heavy), and with an increased susceptibility to damage (gold is soft).
Now, a gold-plated iron golem? Same stats as an iron golem, just pricier.
There is, as an option, the gold metagolem. They were originally presented in Dragon 159. Metagolems are more powerful and intelligent than regular golems, and it's even possible for them to become free-willed. They have some innate spells, and can use a spelljamming helm. And they come in many different flavors.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 07:57:24
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The gold metagolem and golden guardian are almost perfect, thanx! A gold-plated iron golem is just not exotic and expensive enough when compared to these other constructs.
I suppose the owner could afford to intermittently hire a wizard to recharge his golden metagolem.
I suppose the golden guardian could have some minor changes ... more "statue", less "legoblocks". Maybe replace the tentacle attack with some kind of minor spell; I'm thinking hypnotism (opponents, competitors, and customers stop to stare at and admire the impressive golden construct while its owner offers lispy subconscious verbal suggestions) or maybe glitterdust (mostly because it would look really sparkly, bright, and impressive).
I want something mindless and unstoppable that can be paraded and strutted around degradingly on command, preferably something ponderous and mighty that has to walk the entire distance to Mulmaster because it's just too damned heavy to transport any other way (and too unique and precious to keep hidden away when it should instead be proudly displayed!). I imagine that the construct could be attired and accessorized with utterly tasteless expensively tailored fine silks, soft leather, jewellery, and ornaments. I basically want such a disgusting display of (slow-moving) wealth that the players will be constantly embarassed and worried, lose sleep, and become genuinely paranoid about attack. (By which I mean even more paranoid and suspicious than usual.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 11:47:45
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I initially came to this scroll to add to Alystra's textual quotes on drow incest. But then, I found this latest illithid settlement question, so I thought I would respond to that bit of old news first, before moving on to the real reason why I came to this scroll, below. 
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And now for another question. Does anyone know the actual name (if any) of the Illithid community that was featured in Exile? I looked in the 3.5 Underdark source-book, as well as the map included in Exile, and I can't find a name for it. It's just labeled as "the Illithid cavern" in Exile, and the only Mindflayer community anywhere NEAR Menzo mentioned in Underdark was Ch'Chitl, which is too far away to be it.
Founded-didded it!
quote:
Phanlinksal
Phanlinksal used to be a small illithid city in the upper Underdark beneath Lurkwood. Phanlinksal was notable for a great castle of rock carved into the heart of a massive stalagmite. At its peak, the city housed one hundred twenty illithids and many slaves, including drow, goblins, gray dwarves, hook horrors, orcs, and ogres.
Phanlinksal was abandoned after the death of its elder brain and most of its residents. Many were slain by their own slaves, but the true culprit was the spirit-wraith of Zaknafein. The few surviving illithids were forced to rejoin their distant kin in the fallen city of Gauntlgrym.
Today Phanlinksal is the lair of a neothelid, a quadri-tentacled worm of dragonlike proportions often mistaken for a purple worm. Having failed to undergo ceremorphosis, the neothelid is the extremely rare adult form of an illithid tadpole that survived the carnivorous frenzy of its fellows following the death of its elder brain. The slimy, mauve neothelid cannot burrow through solid rock, but instead follows the tunnels carved by purple worms. (Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone": "Environs of Blingdenstone": p43: "Phanlinksal")
The "today" for this lorebook was apparently 30 Nightal, The Year of the Tankard (1370 DR; DDUGTTU, p3: "Introduction"). This would've corresponded to the time when the Companions of the Hall were assembled in Luskan, where they spent a few days gathering information on the whereabouts of the pirate captain Sheila Kree, before heading off into the wilds once again (Sea of Swords, P3:C15). Apparently, Drizzt found the time during these few days to mail off the letters that would eventually be compiled into the lorebook tome that bears his name. 
Interestingly enough, that passage references the illithid settlement of the formerly-human city of Gauntulgrym--not to be confused with the proper Delzoun city of Gauntlgrym. (See THO's clarification of the difference in Ed's 2010 scroll.) 
Also, Methil El-Viddenvelp, Matron Yvonnel's illithid advisor, is said to have been a native of Phanlinksal (DDUGTTU, "NC": "Menzoberranzan": "Important Characters": p65). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 06 Feb 2011 11:57:51 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 12:40:21
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Another passage regarding drow incest relates to Drizzt's graduation scene with his big sister Vierna in Homeland. RAS went back and wrote Drizzt Diary entries for the books of "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" for TIDT Collector's Edition and later editions, and in one, we are told:
quote:
Tradition justified my sister's advances toward me in the graduation of Melee-Magthere, and denied me any claims against that wretched ceremony. (The Crystal Shard, Part 2)
So you see, big sis Vierna was making moves on little bro outside the chapel. And Drizzt reports to us that it was tradition for her to do so, and for him not to complain about any of it.
However, I am not entirely convinced that it was incest which was tradition--only an orgy between fighters and priestesses, in general, at graduation.
Vierna got ticked off with Drizzt's refusal to go along, and so, she took him to the drider pit to become driderified (Homeland, P3:C16). It is possible that she did this just as much out of personal vengeance, for the slight against her, as for reasons of tradition regarding his failure to copulate with anyone during the graduation ceremony.
But apparently, Drizzt confused and conflated the two motivations with his diary entry.
And it is likely that Matron Malice was irate with Vierna, not only for almost getting Drizzt driderified, which would've been a disaster for House Do'Urden; but also for trying to have sex with him in the first place. Vierna couched her attempt to driderify Drizzt in terms of "mercy", and Matron Malice lambasted Vierna's "mercy". Can you, perhaps, sense some sarcasm, there?
At any rate, Drizzt was probably told to never talk about it, because he did violate the orgy tradition; and in addition to any discussion of Vierna's incestuous advance being embarassing to House Do'Urden, any complaints from Drizzt would've constituted a male speaking out about the actions of a high priestess. Drizzt just couldn't win! 
Sometimes, I think part of the reason Matron Malice stuck Vierna on babysitting duty with baby Drizzt was precisely to nauseate her with all the chores and burdens of raising a youngster, and in so doing, hopefully, to nip in the bud those early incestuous thoughts that Vierna seemed to be displaying when she first noticed baby Drizzt's purple eyes (Home., P1:C3).
Obviously, it didn't work!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 17:17:05
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Hi, everyone.
Alystra Illianniis, it's important to separate drow nature and inclination and THE LAWS AND NORMS that apply in Menzo and other "Lolth-matriarchy" drow cities: incest is a "polite society" no-no to minimize dangers to family stability from unauthorized offspring (the same reason it's a non-no among archdevils in the Nine Hells), and to females "on top" in that society because pregnancies can be exploited by opponents (other females in the same family, or rival families in the same city) to curtail the personal power and influence of a pregnant female. That's not to say that those more interested in "having" a particular individual than in "staying safe" or "cleaving to respectable behaviour, always" don't indulge in incestuous acts, when they can get away with it. That tendency added to Matron Malice's reputation. Note that personal performance and how it's judged is used daily and ruthlessly in Menzo to establish social standing/pecking order/obedience and excuses for disobedience.
The drow are drawn from the svart alfar and dokk alfar of Norse mythology, but the drow as we have them depicted in the D&D game are Gary Gygax's creation. Ed created the Realms and was the principal designer for the Menzo boxed set (which expanded Bob's Menzo in game terms and details) and for the original (FOR2) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK. I think we can trust the two of them as being "THE" authorities on the essential nature of the drow.
However, all of the quotations you cited also stand as valid. Incest IS indeed "perverse" and "unnatural" in Menzo law and custom.
There isn't a conflict here (that is to say, Ed and Gary aren't "wrong" about the drow because Bob wrote those words when describing events and drow interactions in Menzo).
One of the reasons laws are passed, in Faerunian societies as in the real world, are to stop or minimize acts that are seen as harmful to larger societal stability as well as individuals, even if some members of that society may want to perform such acts, or even enjoy them.
Individuals don't get shocked or scandalized about things they don't care about. They get upset when something MATTERS to them. Sometimes that's because they feel its lure/fantasize/wonder about doing the forbidden.
Again, not all drow would want to, because drow are a race of often-widely-disparate individuals, just as humans are. The underlying point is that built into their nature from the outset (though trammeled in expression by real-world laws and TSR's self-censorship) was what many humans see as evil: a delight in doing harmful things to others, in breaking laws and indulging in what's forbidden (as opposed to a lack or morality). Drow don't reject laws, they take delight in breaking them when it's more to their advantage than to their loss (i.e. time and again in the Drizzt books, we see drow unhesitatingly breaking laws when they think there are no witnesses who will survive the encounter/situation; one prime example, the entire "wars between Menzo houses" we see at the beginning of HOMELAND, wherein the crime is GETTING CAUGHT.
Years ago, Ed ran a Realms-set D&D adventure at a GenCon wherein (as it happens), a drow brother and sister were making love with each other in their riding-high-with-glee aftermath of tricking kin, slaying a lot of them, and escaping from their drow city with a large pile of family loot. They were perfectly content to do this in the company of restrained human captives (slaves), because such individuals "didn't matter" - - but broke off hurriedly when drow allies approached, and tried to blame their state of undress, etc. on their (separately) "enjoying" their human slaves. Gary was watching some of that adventure unfold, and laughed aloud at that moment, giving Ed a thumbs-up and a "nailed it!" comment.
I was sitting at that gaming table, too, and saw and heard it all.
Later gamers can say and post what they like, and it's too late to ask Gary anything now, but nothing's going to shake what I know.
love,
THO |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 17:51:13
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| Devils/baatezu observe taboos against incest? lmao, ye learn something new every day. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 18:23:34
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| Disgusting display of slow-moving wealth?!? Ha Ha! Your poor PCs, they're going to be attacked scores of times. Bandits, Dwarves, Dragons....they'll be coming outta the woodwork! You are EVIL. I would give much to play at your table Arik. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 06 Feb 2011 19:03:30 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 19:56:03
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quote:
Fellfire — You are EVIL. I would give much to play at your table Arik.
Yeah, maybe a little. But my players are quite used to it by now. They're so convinced that the universe DM is up to something evil that peace and tranquility only makes them edgy and paranoid, the less danger they're in the more jittery they get about something bad happening and more convinced that it's something "big".
But I'm not aiming for subtle this time. Besides, thick combat gives them (and me) a bit of a break from my endlessly overacted NPCs. I expect the road to Phlan will be paved in blood and steel, and I expect the PCs will seemingly have to fight through every single mile they march. There are of course several incredibly vicious planned encounters, ambushes, and assaults as well.
The Old Temple in Phlan will conveniently be a scene of brutal conflict between the (currently resident) Stormlords of Talos and a small army of (newly-arrived) Battlepriests of Tempus when the PCs first set foot in the city ... so I could always have some bloodthirsty Tempurian "pilgrims" join the PCs at any point along their journey, attracted to (and helping to attract) heapings of excessive carnage. My players don't know they're going to Phlan (yet) but they're making a big deal out of the (two remaining) magical bronze friendship medallions they got almost 20 years ago on Sauros island, so I'll happily let the swampier legs of their journey be populated by friendly (or at least non-hostile) lizardmen.
I don't know where you are, Fellfire, but my gaming table is located in Surrey/Vancouver, BC, Canada. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Feb 2011 19:56:28 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:09:13
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Wow, thanks so much for the extra input on that, THO. I understand completely that drow society is more concerned with "getting caught", rather than personal morals, and this was actually part of the reason I took the stance that I did. The "shame" and derision of others if the parties involved get found out was a large part of my initial argument, rather than the idea of it being immoral. I guess I just tend to think that they would be more mindful of the negative implications should it be discovered, than simply wantonly breaking taboos on a whim. I never said that Ed and Gary were wrong as such, just that I thought the published lore seemed to indicate the opposite of their initial ideas on the subject. Unfortunately, this happens a lot, where the "official" lore says one thing, even if the original concept was different. I get that. And that info on the game at the GenCon is PRICELESS! (And probably illustrates why I think it would be a VERY rare occurrence- there is always a chance that someone who "matters" will walk in and discover what's going on....)
Incidentally, I would like to point out to BEAST that Vierna was taking Drizzt to be drider FOOD, not to become one. Malice was the one who threatened to do that, after he had been "rescued" from the pit. As for the graduation itself, although it does appear that Vierna was making moves on him outside the chapel, the priestess who had initially tried to seduce and erm, make whoopy with Drizzt was someone else. (Not even named, as she was simply some random priestess at the ceremony.) I also agree that it was the ceremony itself and not the sibling "encounter" which was the tradition, and that was why she became angry- although his rejection of her as well probably did not help, lol!
Also, thanks to BEAST for the name of that illithid settlement! I've been at a loss as to what to call it in my Underdark campaign currently running on another site.
On a related note, does anyone know if a drider priestess of Lolth would still be capable of using the ritual to make other driders? Also, I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer- can driders actually reproduce? I have a situation in that campaign mentioned above wherein a colony of driders has kidnapped some of the female party members in an attempt to turn them into driders to increase their dwindling numbers. They are led by a drider priestess who is doing the actual ritual to change them, so that the males in the colony can mate and produce offspring. (I know this is odd, but it stems from one of the players having been temporarily absent, so her PC got abducted and I decided it would make it more interesting if the driders were looking for mates instead of food, as the colony is seeking to build numbers to return to Menzo and take the places of the Matrons as the dominant power.) The idea was that most of their females have died, and few new driders have either been created or born (I have little ones!) to replace the ones who are killed off. Any thoughts on this? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 04:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The idea was that most of their females have died, and few new driders have either been created or born (I have little ones!) to replace the ones who are killed off. Any thoughts on this?
I once posited the idea of a drow city where driders knew the secret to transforming drow into driders, and used it to gain "recruits". Of course, my idea also had the driders having enough strength and sufficient leadership to be a power in this city... And in such a situation, some drider recruits would be willingly transformed, after being on the losing side of House warfare. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:12:30
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Since when? Haven't they all but out and out said that Fiernia(Archduchess of the 4th, can't remember her name) is having an incestuous relationship with her father?
Though, devils in general resist the temptation of both sexual pleasure and intoxicating substances as both lead towards chaos; i.e., the indulgent nature of their hated enemies the demons. But if memory serves, the upper levels of Baator's elite, the archedvils, indulge in both freely.
Edit: Damn this reoccuring problem that shows one less page than there actually is in a thread on the main forum. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 07 Feb 2011 06:14:22 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:08:38
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No, Chosen, it wasn't the SEX part of the incest that was forbidden by Asmodeus, it was ANY archdevils (unique greater devils) having offspring without his permission. Their very existence threatens the status quo (in which he is on top), because they can't be so readily summoned/coerced by other devils.
If Asmodeus knows which diabolical potential foes/rulers of planes are "running around" (he of course casts them out, so they end up powerless on Avernus, the uppermost of the Nine Hells; see the ranks of outcast devils in Ed's Hells articles in DRAGON 75, 76, and 91; Nergal was one who later featured in ELMINSTER IN HELL, and Ed's creation Gargoth, perhaps the most famous outcast devil in the D&D game, has been picked up and used in all sorts of ways down the years, by many gamers), he can more easily anticipate cabals and conspiracies that threaten his authority, and crush them.
This whole matter was edited out of Ed's DRAGON 91 article on TSR's Code of Ethics grounds, which at that time meant one couldn't discuss sex at all (the infamous "you can't call Lancelot and Guinevre lovers, even when quoting all these previously-published texts, because G's married to Arthur, and that implies extramarital sex, so we'll just kill this King Arthur article completely" moment comes to mind). However, it's been talked about many times since, at GenCon and elsewhere, and has become part of established Realmslore. (Also edited out of Ed's article were precise drawings and descriptions, including the runes, of the talismans of many sorts of devils and unique devils - - because the TSR staff feared they'd be painted, scratched, or chalked on churches and tombstones across the USA, and the company would suffer from the public fallout.)
What Ed originally wrote, as an explanation for why Baalzebul ruled TWO layers of the Nine Hells, Malbolge and Maladomini, was that Lucifer (the original ruler of Malbolge) and Batna had had a child, Lucifuge, without the permission of Asmodeus. When A discovered this, he destroyed Lucifer, Batna, and Lucifuge (some sages say Lucifer survived, in a farflung, much-diminished form, despite the intent of Asmodeus to utterly destroy him), and gave rule over Lucifer's layer to Lucifer's worst foe, Baalzebul (as an example to all of the other "rulers of Hell" as to what would happen to them if they dared to break this commandment of Asmodeus).
Archdevils don't usually "marry," per se (because they regard all pacts as attempts to control them), but Lucifer and Batna were consorts. The crime was the offspring without permission; this wasn't "incest," per se. I was speaking of the breaking of "local laws" regarding sexual practises, versus the nature of humans (and devils!) to get it on when they feel the urge, and to do what's forbidden, too.
BTW, as per the Realms agreement, Ed's version of the Nine Hells is still in general (as opposed to specific details) "valid" for the Realms, though it's been superceded and rewritten several times, now, for the wider D&D game.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 07 Feb 2011 20:11:05 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:21:42
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Alright, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Really, I should know better. >.> |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:37:28
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| Oh, another stupid question; drow don't have infravision by the mechanics anymore. They have darkvision. So how does that tower in Menzo that they heat up to tell time work? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 20:45:48
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Okay, I just have to ask...
Batna? 
Also, if I may, some of my own musings on the subject of Drow incest: The Drow, just prior to the descent curse/ritual, were wholly evil, but NOT insane (except for a few individuals, as is the case with all species). The incredibly harsh first century or two of Drow survival in a hostile environment lead to much mistrust and backstabbing, and many clans (later to become 'houses') took to inbreeding to perpetuate themselves. Even though relatives can not be trusted in drow society, that particular period of history forced many to cling to their familial bonds just to survive (cannibalism was also in-practice then, as per 2e DotU).
It is because of this dark time that the drow are all somewhat 'insane', due to having to eat each other in desperation, and also because of the inbreeding. As they regained their status and started to rebuild their civilization, STRICK laws were passed in regards to incest and cannibalism (which became commonplace among some groups) in order to insure that the Drow would NOT fall further into savagery and become beasts themselves.
The mindset (of the leaders) was that although they all did what they needed to survive, it was time to move on, and move forward (this is probably when Lolth handed them her religious Dogma in regards to what the Drow are to strive towards). Had they continued in 'survival mode', they would have become something akin to Grimlocks, or even Gibberlings (both of which may actually be highly devolved groups of dark elves who didn't stop their downward spiral).
We have evidence of this 'survival mode' present in Drizzt, in fact, when he reverts to 'hunter mode', which may actually be some ancient 'throw-back' Fey trait. Drow can evidently enter a near-feral state to survive (which fits with what we know about Elven physiology - see my Elven Netbook articles about Elven adaptability). It seems ALL Elves have some knack to become what they need to be, which includes dramatic physical changes, like converting to Sea-Elves (note both the Avariel and Lythari, which is why I think this primal ability dates back to their Fey heritage).
Anyhow, my point is that such laws needed to be passed, because the Drow are naturally chaotic, and they would have never managed to become a dominant force within the Underdark had they not taken certain steps to insure their race keep from going completely insane. Their intelligence and willpower (and perhaps some nudging from Lolth) barely manged to overcome their darker nature.
EDIT: @CofAsmodeus - I tried to cover that little hiccup in my Elven Netbook article covering the Drow. Basically, FR Drow have a certain 'boon' (from Lolth?) that non-FR Drow do not; they have a second eyelid that acts as a filter - a lens if you will - that allows them to see into the infra-red spectrum. It also gives them an ability that most Darkvision-using races do not - by varying how much they open the extra eyelids they can see in color using Darkvision - something normally not possible.
Not the ideal solution to the lore conundrum, and many folks had issue with it, but it was the best I could come up with without invalidating much Menzoberranzan lore. I picture the eyelids working similar to that creature Will Smith chased at the beginning of MiB. Entirely Homebrew, so use what you want, or not. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 22:11:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 21:43:45
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... or the "fire" spell the drow cast each day on the Narbondel clock pillarstone has been modified to show light and colour tones their darkvision can perceive (even if only as an illusory phantasm they would otherwise be unable to "see") ... or, instead, the pillarstone could be modified, maybe even just given a coat of magical (or chemical) heat-sensitive paint which "reacts" with the traditional spell to produce the same effect ... or they've enchanted or wished the entire clockstone into a big minor magic item ...
Simpler to modify the clock than modify the drow. Boons are possible, but probably wouldn't be given for trivial things the drow could do for themselves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2011 21:57:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:07:51
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But the Drow WERE the ones modified - to modify the clock itself would invalidate much Menzo lore, including several passages in RAS's novels, and at least one major scene in WotSQ. The description of how the heat dissipates over the course of the day is described repeatedly.
Simpler to fix the very thing 3e broke, then modify all that has gone before. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 22:53:10
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| Personally I prefer darkvision as a mechanic; infravision...well, it may be more viable underground, but generally speaking actually seeing in the infraspectrum is far from ideal. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 23:11:34
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I prefer infravision. They should've left well enough alone. New & improved is new & inferior.
Narbondel was probably changed to simply being a light clock, instead of a heat clock. Meh. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Stupid question time...
