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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 00:05:40
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Ok, I like some of the discussions I see going on on various threads where we're discussing the nature of various planes. Without getting into lengthy debate (because we all know some people can "win" such just by going on and on so much that people just quit reading), I'd like to discuss some basic options we've seen.
First, the "transitive" planes
There was an idea that the ethereal, feywild, shadow, astral, the great tree, and phlogiston be transitive planes that can be used to traverse to other existences throughout the multiverse, and that these planes should not be limited in size. I like this idea.
Next we were discussing that limbo should also be a limitless sized plane, but that it shouldn't be connected directly to the prime. I like this idea as well, and there should be noone ruling it. The idea that the far realm is reached through it is also interesting.
I like the idea that all of these other outer planes are limited in size, specifically for the reason that you put in X "lord" of the plane, let your party go at him, and he's killed. However, what about maybe the nature of some of these planes.
For instance, the abyss has how many layers in realmspace? Maybe we don't exactly know because its constantly changing with respect to any given prime. Maybe the various layers are coterminous/waxing/waning/remote as happened with Eberron's planes. Maybe just maybe this is why Lolth was so hot to form her own plane within realmspace and not have it as part of the abyss (i.e. her layer was moving away, so she had to form a plane tied intrinsically to the realms to keep her hold on power in the realms). This could also explain things like Eltab and his "hidden layer" of the abyss.... and maybe the demoncysts (i.e. his layer of the abyss became coterminous with the realms and the Narfellians did something to mess with it). All of this flowing seems to fit perfectly the chaotic nature of the Abyss (and maybe its why recently Eberron is rumored to have some kind of link forming to Toril... maybe the demonweb pits are linking the two worlds).
Just another idea, maybe occasionally these abyssal layers clone themselves as well (similar to how Ao split Abeir and Toril), thus why there may be more than one Orcus, etc... Maybe this cloning is similar to what happens with the mists of Ravenloft?
Now, this "model" of moving planes works well for the Abyss, but it does not work well with say the lawful hells. What if there are powerful beings who have managed through force of will/divine power/ whatever to combine multiple planes into a hierarchical form. This being then "ties" his construct to multiple prime material planes in order to draw in souls to fuel it. However, these hells don't necessarily comprise all the primes. There may be other "nine hells" or "eight hells" or "ten hells" that were formed by another powerful being (or group of beings working in concert) that are tied to other prime material planes. In this instance, if the ruler of the combined planes were somehow destroyed, this could mean a big disruption in the structure of these planes.
The general idea here between what I presented for the abyss and the hells are basically the same, except for the idea that one moves and changes on its own.... whereas the other is firmly ensconced/tied to a given prime(s). The big thing is that they're finite, they have rulers that can be messed with.
I wasn't a big planescape person, so I'll just throw this out and see what comes to people's mind.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2399 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 02:00:33
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See, and the ol' good Planescape was robust enough that the problem "how to somehow have all this make at least some sense" didn't appear.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 01:40:18
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Of all the things WotC keeps messing with and throwing completely off course, it's the cosmologies. It was so much simpler when Planescape was dominant, and that's how it should've been, really. When 3E came, I was saddened at really huge changes (the Astral Plane covers ALL, the plane of Shadow now a full-fledged plane though 2E already hinted at this anyway so I'm not that concerned...but why didn't the Plane of Radiance receive the same...?)
The "alternate" cosmologies thing I was actually beginning to understand and enjoy. It made sense, it also allowed different Material Planes to have their own cosmology, but it just sucks there wasn't a precedent for this in 2E. The added factor that the Deep Shadow Plane allowed transfer between cosmologies made it feel somewhat normal again.
Then 4E comes and just...wow...throws it in a blender and poured it down our throats.
The problem I've had with FR's new cosmology was it just does not work. FR was heavily tied to the Great Wheel cosmology and I really don't understand why they can't just keep it that way for ease of use? I'm very skeptical on 5E's cosmology. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 03:54:28
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What if the Abyss was like an infection?
In the beginning of time, when the first world died (or just got Sundered, take your pick), the festering wound it sustained became something more, as the gods rebuilt the cosmos. Fearing the spread of this... Abyssal Plague... they cut it out and placed in in its own plane. They mistakenly thought they had gotten it all, but from time to small pockets of this infection appear in other planes - Demoncysts - and as they spread all manner of fiends spill forth. When these pockets of festering pustulence grow too big, Overgods (or perhaps even uber-powerful mortals) cut these new cancers from the body of the world, and send them to the Abyss where they belong.
Thats how new layers are born - they are the pockets of Abyssal Plague that appear throughout the multiverse, that the powers remove and banish to their own plane. The Abyss is like a trash can in a surgery room, and as the pile of the rotted refuse grows, the material world is a smaller place for it. What mortals do not know, and gods fear, is that the universe is slowly dying... it has been for eons. All the Overgods can do is stave-off the end for a few million years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2012 03:56:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 11:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if the Abyss was like an infection?
In the beginning of time, when the first world died (or just got Sundered, take your pick), the festering wound it sustained became something more, as the gods rebuilt the cosmos. Fearing the spread of this... Abyssal Plague... they cut it out and placed in in its own plane. They mistakenly thought they had gotten it all, but from time to small pockets of this infection appear in other planes - Demoncysts - and as they spread all manner of fiends spill forth. When these pockets of festering pustulence grow too big, Overgods (or perhaps even uber-powerful mortals) cut these new cancers from the body of the world, and send them to the Abyss where they belong.
Thats how new layers are born - they are the pockets of Abyssal Plague that appear throughout the multiverse, that the powers remove and banish to their own plane. The Abyss is like a trash can in a surgery room, and as the pile of the rotted refuse grows, the material world is a smaller place for it. What mortals do not know, and gods fear, is that the universe is slowly dying... it has been for eons. All the Overgods can do is stave-off the end for a few million years.
Hmmm, the idea of the origin of the abyss is interesting. Why not take it in slightly another direction. Gods form their own realms, right. Then gods die. Their realms "fade away".... what if their realms actually may get sucked into the abyss, and with little guidance the divine energies of the plane become... as you say, infected.
Taking this idea a little further, maybe things like the nine hells were more lawful "god realms" that were gathered by a powerful fiendish entity.
Secondarily, I know there's some big storyline going on with WotC right now that's called "the abyssal plague".... what's it even about? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 15:40:52
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No clue.
I almost bought a book yesterday with that on the cover, so it was probably on my mind.
I thought it was some sort of multispheric crossover event, but from reading the novels with it on the cover, I think it was some weird 'no place' series (because it has to do with Nentir Vale, which is part of the non-setting), and the novels from other settings (from actual settings) just contained one part of a 6-part prologue to the Abyssal Plague trilogy.
Thus, if you wanted to read the series, and wanted to read the 'introduction' to that series, you had to buy novels from several different settings and piece it all together (kinda like those Marvel action figures that each had one piece of Galactus in them). I suppose I would call that a 'clever bit of marketing'... but that would depend upon how successful it was.
Anyhow, that means it may or may not have been an actual cross-over. From what little I gathered by reading cover-blurbs, the story itself was part of Nentir Vale, and the parts that were in other books were just excerpts from a prologue.
Still, the name worked well for how I was imagining the Abyss growing - it is the cancer that is eating away at the universe. I'd be pretty amazed if my concept was the same as the one in the novels.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Sep 2012 15:43:46 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 16:31:16
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| If i am not mistaken we got a FR novel as part of the Abyssal Plague theme. The idea of dead gods realms getting drawn to the Abyss is interesting. That sparked an idea from myself, usually a plane of a god is shaping itīs appearance by itīs will, with the deity gone and it getting pushed towards the abyss, i could see the raw chaotic power of the abyss taint the planes and shape it with then the first powerfull demon stumbling upon it to lay claim. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
If i am not mistaken we got a FR novel as part of the Abyssal Plague theme. The idea of dead gods realms getting drawn to the Abyss is interesting. That sparked an idea from myself, usually a plane of a god is shaping itīs appearance by itīs will, with the deity gone and it getting pushed towards the abyss, i could see the raw chaotic power of the abyss taint the planes and shape it with then the first powerfull demon stumbling upon it to lay claim.
Yeah, same going with the hells. If a collection of lawful evil beings (for instance, say a group of pit fiends.... or several unique beings) can get together and "capture" a few such realms after some major god-slaying event somewhere, they could each control a "layer" and link them. That being said, this definitely works better for an abyssal origin....especially if you go with the idea that abyssal "layers" come and go with respect to primes... since this formerly attached realm has been let loose with the death of the god. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:33:42
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| One other idea did come to me recently. In comparing the general idea previously held of an elemental plane of air, earth, fire, water, and para-elemental planes of the mixing of those.... comparing that to the general idea of the elemental chaos. I personally would recommend that they actually stick with the 4E idea of the elemental chaos. The realm can still be divided with a "lord of air" and a "lord of earth" etc.... but there can also be a Sultan of the Efreeti, Emir of the Dao, etc... plus other primordial type being who might be over other "elements" such as a lord of metals, a lord of acids, a lord of crystals, a lord of lava, etc... and maybe even such oddities as a lord of blood or a lord of wood or a lord of bones |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 18:52:00
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From a D&D/FR/GH 'purist', I do not like that they made such a major change to the Great Wheel cosmology.
As a DM, all I can say is, "Its about time!" Those planes were practically useless as adventuring sites before - now they can be used far more easily. Although I feel the universe's consistency has suffered for it, I can live with the change. I still don't ever see myself sending a party there, but I would at least consider the possibility now.
As for the Abyss - I have another theory. What if the Nine Hells were part of the primordial universe - the one that the Great Wheel is part of? What if - after the sundering (which I think of more as a 'shattering') - the various Prime Worlds (Crystal Spheres) that formed developed their own hells? And that these hells were really the layers of the Abyss? For every world, there would be one layer. If we could connect that somehow to the creation of the demons, it could be a winner (in other words, in the beginning, there were no Tanari - just Ba'atezu. The Tanari were born with the corruption/Sundering of the Prime). I have to think more on this - I may want to add this in as part of my (HB) creation myths. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2012 18:54:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 19:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From a D&D/FR/GH 'purist', I do not like that they made such a major change to the Great Wheel cosmology.
As a DM, all I can say is, "Its about time!" Those planes were practically useless as adventuring sites before - now they can be used far more easily. Although I feel the universe's consistency has suffered for it, I can live with the change. I still don't ever see myself sending a party there, but I would at least consider the possibility now.
As for the Abyss - I have another theory. What if the Nine Hells were part of the primordial universe - the one that the Great Wheel is part of? What if - after the sundering (which I think of more as a 'shattering') - the various Prime Worlds (Crystal Spheres) that formed developed their own hells? And that these hells were really the layers of the Abyss? For every world, there would be one layer. If we could connect that somehow to the creation of the demons, it could be a winner (in other words, in the beginning, there were no Tanari - just Ba'atezu. The Tanari were born with the corruption/Sundering of the Prime). I have to think more on this - I may want to add this in as part of my (HB) creation myths.
Yeah, you shared my feelings exactly... unless you were looking for crystals, who really wanted to go to the elemental plane of earth? If you went to the elemental plane of water, dispel magic was almost a death sentence. You can still have that massive section of water in this elemental chaos if that's your thing, but if you want to have some ground with a river of fire and clouds of literally solid water.... you can do that too.
That's an interesting thought (them all being part of the hells), but given the choice, I like the idea more that they were godly realms set adrift with the death of the gods (slipping slowly towards chaos without the guidance of their deity). Doing it this way allows for the creation and destruction of layers of the abyss without it being an issue at all. I also like the idea I've seen in a lot of the resources (both pathfinder and WotC) that there are other "types" of fiends in the abyss, as perhaps these "wayward godly realms" grew different sorts of fiends on their own. Tanar'ri have just been the most successful at spreading themselves to the other abyssal "layers". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 20:28:53
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| I personally would stick to the "myths" of the creation of the fiends done by the Planescape setting. No need to retcon lore things that worked imo. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 20:34:27
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Well, I call it 'myths' because they don't have to be true. Perhaps some other group (then fiends) has these myths? It just adds another layer of 'false Truths' to everything.
I am also talking about one specific branch of demons - the Tanari. Other things can keep their (pre-Abyss) origins. Tanari (or is it all demons?) were retconned to being corrupted elementals in 4e, and the myth I am proposing might help to fudge things between editions. Like I said, I have to think on it (and tweak the hell out of it) to make everything work, but it could be an interesting hypothesis. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 20:52:50
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Making the Tanar'ri lords primordials corrupted by the chaos is something i dislike about the mess 4e made out of the Abyss. I rather stick with tanar'ri created by the obyriths and then due to the chaotic nature rebelled against the masters, claiming their places.
I could see the Obyriths slaying primordials and then use their bodies to form the tanar'ri lords. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 21:01:53
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Planescape, as a setting, is fantastic. Likely my favourite RPG setting, preferred even over Ye Olde Realms. The fact that it was officially "abandoned" is sort of just a plus in my mind; I don't really have to bother "keeping up" with it, I can be confident that it won't be "wrecked" by unpalatable canon.
But Planescape does not strictly require the AD&D 1E/2E Great Wheel model. From a story-objective sort of viewpoint, Planescape is much the same as Spelljammer - the difference is that it doesn't (necessarily) add (as much) rules complexity to determine how one gets from place to place, plus it removes the tedium of travel and just moves the story along. All Planescape requires, really, is a "central" place like Sigil and some sort of in-setting premise which allows the DM/Author to arbitrarily hurtle characters all over the cosmos.
I've seen plenty of cosmologies and planar models (from countless sources, most not TSR/Wizbro/D&D/etc) which are completely workable, even though the vast majority are muturally incompatible. The wonders of fiction, fantasy, and infinity make the possibility of all these things existing a near certainty.
To be honest, my main issue with the planes is how they get divided up to neatly fit the arbitrary D&D alignment system. I sigh in frustration every time I read about a new D&D version or D&D setting which redefines the basic alignments because I know that the eventual consequence - as always - is another jumbled up pile of fiends scrambled across whatever new definitions of dark Hells and Abysses have been spawned.
Much as I love the Great Wheel notion, it does have a few problems ... for example, why the need for both the Astral and Outlands, they're a bit redundant, no? Why arbitrarily decide that anything and everything that doesn't "fit" neatly (that is, a whole lot of things) just becomes a demiplane or Realm or Layer floating around in the soup? Why assume that planar layers stack up neatly at all, especially when looking at something like the Abyss ... I imagine it more like a pile of cards thrown around and roughly gathered, sort of stacked up but with things misaligned and sticking out and upside down and even left outside the stack entirely. And I would expect the (fiendish) natives of such places to be equally disarrayed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 22:42:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Planescape, as a setting, is fantastic. Likely my favourite RPG setting, preferred even over Ye Olde Realms. The fact that it was officially "abandoned" is sort of just a plus in my mind; I don't really have to bother "keeping up" with it, I can be confident that it won't be "wrecked" by unpalatable canon.
But Planescape does not strictly require the AD&D 1E/2E Great Wheel model. From a story-objective sort of viewpoint, Planescape is much the same as Spelljammer - the difference is that it doesn't (necessarily) add (as much) rules complexity to determine how one gets from place to place, plus it removes the tedium of travel and just moves the story along. All Planescape requires, really, is a "central" place like Sigil and some sort of in-setting premise which allows the DM/Author to arbitrarily hurtle characters all over the cosmos.
I've seen plenty of cosmologies and planar models (from countless sources, most not TSR/Wizbro/D&D/etc) which are completely workable, even though the vast majority are muturally incompatible. The wonders of fiction, fantasy, and infinity make the possibility of all these things existing a near certainty.
To be honest, my main issue with the planes is how they get divided up to neatly fit the arbitrary D&D alignment system. I sigh in frustration every time I read about a new D&D version or D&D setting which redefines the basic alignments because I know that the eventual consequence - as always - is another jumbled up pile of fiends scrambled across whatever new definitions of dark Hells and Abysses have been spawned.
Much as I love the Great Wheel notion, it does have a few problems ... for example, why the need for both the Astral and Outlands, they're a bit redundant, no? Why arbitrarily decide that anything and everything that doesn't "fit" neatly (that is, a whole lot of things) just becomes a demiplane or Realm or Layer floating around in the soup? Why assume that planar layers stack up neatly at all, especially when looking at something like the Abyss ... I imagine it more like a pile of cards thrown around and roughly gathered, sort of stacked up but with things misaligned and sticking out and upside down and even left outside the stack entirely. And I would expect the (fiendish) natives of such places to be equally disarrayed.
Yeah, the idea that the abyss is itself one contiguous collection is to me kind of odd. That's why I proposed the idea that as pertains to a given prime, there may be different "abyssal" layers that are accessible from that prime at a given time.... and maybe what makes abyssal layers isn't their link to one another, but more their similarities based on how they were actually formed.
I don't have a problem with the planes having some ties to alignment, because the general idea of the outer planes is that these are planes formed and controlled by perception and will, unlike the inner planes which are definitely physically oriented.
However, does it need to be the classic great wheel or are all these planes just floating realms in the soup of the cosmos. I can't say I'm driven to any one idea over another. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 18:27:36
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The Abyss is strongly Chaotic, perhaps not a lot less than Limbo itself. I suppose that it "absorbs" layers whenever other places/worlds/planes shift sufficiently towards Chaos and Evil, I suppose that layers constantly divide (as various archfiends claim and reshape their territories) and can sometimes even merge together (as we sort of see with the three layers of Azzagrat evolving into a more uniform entity), I suppose the Abyss might "spawn" other places/worlds/planes whenever a layer somehow falls out of alignment ... I think a compelling argument might be made for Ravenloft originally being some misty layer of the Abyss which floated off and began absorbing domains from other places, or that Lolth's Abyssal layer was once home to the progenitors of the drow inhabiting multiple Underdarks (and Niflheims?) across the D&D cosmos.
Although of course this sort of thinking doesn't really fit very neatly within the symmetry of the Great Wheel. Or maybe it does ... we see bits of Olympus and Ysgard/Yggdrasil and Arvanaith/elves/fey which have fallen all over the cosmos. It's possible that - outside of the most rigidly ordered places (like Nirvana/Mechanus) - the planes are always in motion relative to each other, anchored only by the beliefs of the Powers who are in turn sustained only by the fickle faiths of feeble mortals. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 20:18:03
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| Which of the 3 cosmologies are we referring to in this thread? The original Great Wheel, the 3e Tree cosmology for FR or the 4e Cosmology? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:42:13
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All are one.
The different iterations are chalked up to 'mortal misconceptions' and lying gods.
Thats why while I accept The Great Wheel as THE D&D cosmology, I have to also accept the fact that it is not the reality - its just the best model that presents itself thus-far. There is no way to accurately diagram multidimensional (beyond 3 dimensions) space on a two-dimensional sheet of paper, nor can our 'mere mortal' minds even understand such things. Even deities have their limitations in this regard... but they won't admit that.
I have a new theory - what if fiends can comprehend the number of dimensions equal to their fiend level (type)?
I never used Fiends in 3e - how did summoning them work? I am only familiar with the old (1e/2e) summoning methods by type(#). Nevermind - just looked it up... there are tables. Still, using the 'Summon Monster' tables we can still see a progression; fiends of that summoning level can comprehend that many dimensions. Thus Archfiends can see in 10 dimensions, and only Asmodeus can see in all 11 dimensions (if thats all there is). I suppose the same should apply to all outsiders.
Just a new theory - fire holes into as you will.
BTW, what keeps fiends from entering the Prime Material at will? According to the summoning rules, they go back when the summons duration ends. This means there must be other ways for fiends to get to prime worlds (since some of them are around for years), and if thats the case, why haven't they just taken over the whole damn universe?
This is probably answered somewhere in the PS material (which I am no expert on, by any stretch of the imagination). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 15:47:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Planescape, as a setting, is fantastic. Likely my favourite RPG setting, preferred even over Ye Olde Realms. The fact that it was officially "abandoned" is sort of just a plus in my mind; I don't really have to bother "keeping up" with it, I can be confident that it won't be "wrecked" by unpalatable canon.
+1 - except I disagree that the Outlands and the Astral plane are redundant, they have the same alignment, everything else is different. |
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On the nature of planes - general ideas
