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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 01:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
quote:
Originally posed by the Sage:
"It's not what he did... it's how far he reached." Heh.
I suppose there is something inherently impressive about a guy who makes a grab for ultimate cosmic power and then fails, wiping out his entire civilization, changing the world forever and writing his name in the history books in giant flaming letters. On the down side, being a morality tale kind of sucks, but hey, is that too much a price to pay for immortality?
Probably...
There's nothing wrong with "thinking big." But, seriously, when "thinking big" starts to incorporate the designs of actual divine powers... I think it would be necessary to re-define just what "big" means in these situations. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 01:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by the Sage:
There's nothing wrong with "thinking big." But, seriously, when "thinking big" starts to incorporate the designs of actual divine powers... I think it would be necessary to re-define just what "big" means in these situations.
You know what they say, think big or go home. Karsus thought big and destroyed his home. That's got to be worth double points, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
He did go out with one hell of a bang, you must admit.
More like a series of large crashes, I'd say...maybe a bit of screaming... |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 01:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
You know what they say, think big or go home. Karsus thought big and destroyed his home. That's got to be worth double points, right?
Heh. Let's put it this way. I'm sure there would've been plenty of devils and such gambling away for the rights to torture the soul of Karsus... that's for sure.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 01:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by the Sage:
Heh. Let's put it this way. I'm sure there would've been plenty of devils and such gambling away for the rights to torture the soul of Karsus... that's for sure.
Then I suppose there is an upside to his bizarre tripartite soul, he cannot pass on the Nine Hells and be tortured for all eternity. Still would not call him lucky though... |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 02:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
quote:
Originally posted by the Sage:
Heh. Let's put it this way. I'm sure there would've been plenty of devils and such gambling away for the rights to torture the soul of Karsus... that's for sure.
Then I suppose there is an upside to his bizarre tripartite soul, he cannot pass on the Nine Hells and be tortured for all eternity. Still would not call him lucky though...
Well, the very fact that no plane or deity would claim him [or any of his residual power] from the Prime Material, I think, is even further incentive for certain ambitious devils to make an attempt to claim it.
Who knows? They might even come to an "agreement" of sorts that allows for the special conditions of his tripartite soul. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Apr 2010 02:23:14 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 13:38:34
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| Yes he killed himself, but it is all a ruse created along with the cloak of Shar to reincarnate after the death of Mystra in the 1400s version of Netheril. Disbelievers will suffer his might! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2010 : 13:40:48
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| KARSUS=EPIC FAIL! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 03:17:24
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| No matter what others say about Karsus and his failure to ascend to godhood to save his people from the phaerimm, I still and will always like him. =) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 03:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heh. Let's put it this way. I'm sure there would've been plenty of devils and such gambling away for the rights to torture the soul of Karsus... that's for sure.
True, and maybe the ambitious archdevil Mephistopheles is on top of the list.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 09:32:25
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quote:
Why is there so much love for Karsus everywhere?
What brings you to this notion? A dozen or so posters bearing his name, a dozen articles on him here and there? That's hardly something worth to lay any significance on. The fan-brigade will happily tell you how awesome he was, but in fact, if you get your hands on the Netheril - box and the Netheril - trilogy, you will come to the (official) conclusion that for all his might, in the end he was an utter crackpot. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 24 Apr 2010 09:33:21 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 10:06:25
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I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 10:11:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
pfft. You're just jealous! |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 10:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
Such people are always in history! |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 12:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
Such people are always in history!
And people proclaiming their admiration for them at a later date is often scary.
But a real world discussion (and I have been tempted to draw a few parallels) here could get really ugly. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 12:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
pfft. You're just jealous!
You caught me. Damn, and here I have been trying to hide behind a halfling-like quasi-hippy persona for all this time! But you still havent found out about all my fiendish plots have you? At least not those about taking the Realms and teleporting them back in time and... ....
Damn. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I do admire how powerful he was, and admire the fact that he was able to come up with Karsus's Avatar -- crafting a spell like that is pretty much the pinnacle of mortal magic.
That said, his casting of it -- particularly his chosen victim -- was incredibly short-sighted. I don't think he gave a single thought to potential negative effects of the spell, not even the fact that he was stealing power from a deity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:31:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I admire his confidence, and his desire to learn what lay beyond... because it's a trait I see a lot in myself. The only problem being, however, is that he let that sense of self-confidence override his wisdom when he started delving into areas of both the divine and the arcane that were simply not meant for mortal comprehension. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 15:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I do admire how powerful he was, and admire the fact that he was able to come up with Karsus's Avatar -- crafting a spell like that is pretty much the pinnacle of mortal magic.
That said, his casting of it -- particularly his chosen victim -- was incredibly short-sighted. I don't think he gave a single thought to potential negative effects of the spell, not even the fact that he was stealing power from a deity.
This all goes back to the Terraseer telling Karsus of the prophecy of Mystryl's death. It wasn't really hubris that made him create and cast the spell, it was the fact that he wanted to protect her from the 'threat' that was coming by taking her place. I doubt the spell even was even meant to be permanent. He was looking to be a shield to her, not realizing that he became the sword by casting it. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 16:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I do admire how powerful he was, and admire the fact that he was able to come up with Karsus's Avatar -- crafting a spell like that is pretty much the pinnacle of mortal magic.
That said, his casting of it -- particularly his chosen victim -- was incredibly short-sighted. I don't think he gave a single thought to potential negative effects of the spell, not even the fact that he was stealing power from a deity.
This all goes back to the Terraseer telling Karsus of the prophecy of Mystryl's death. It wasn't really hubris that made him create and cast the spell, it was the fact that he wanted to protect her from the 'threat' that was coming by taking her place. I doubt the spell even was even meant to be permanent. He was looking to be a shield to her, not realizing that he became the sword by casting it.
That may have been part of his reasoning for the decision... but I don't believe it was the "be all end all" of his decision making process. And even with the inherent problems of the source, I tend to agree, for the most part, with what the Netheril tome tells us about Karsus's perception of the gods:- "Karsus believed that the gods were nothing more than mortals who had mastered magic that he hadn’t yet discovered." He was, thus, ultimately convinced he could attain that same level of power. Heeding the words of the prophecy simply gave him a more convenient path for focusing his goal of achieving 12th level magic, and eventually becoming a god himself. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Apr 2010 17:46:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 17:38:41
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| Not only that, but making someone weak is not the best way to protect them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 19:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Help!!! Who let the fanatics out of their cells?
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 09:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
<snip>
Then I suppose there is an upside to his bizarre tripartite soul, he cannot pass on the Nine Hells and be tortured for all eternity. Still would not call him lucky though...
 I must be missing some Karsus lore... or just too tired to remember it at the moment. What's the source for the tripartite soul bit? And does that explain the write-up in FR5 describing his still-beating heart continuing to pump out divine blood?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2010 : 10:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
<snip>
Then I suppose there is an upside to his bizarre tripartite soul, he cannot pass on the Nine Hells and be tortured for all eternity. Still would not call him lucky though...
I must be missing some Karsus lore... or just too tired to remember it at the moment. What's the source for the tripartite soul bit? And does that explain the write-up in FR5 describing his still-beating heart continuing to pump out divine blood?
I can't immediately recall the printed source [I think it *might* have been LEoF]... but the "Karsus After The Fall" section on this page provides some details:- http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Karsus |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 00:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I do admire how powerful he was, and admire the fact that he was able to come up with Karsus's Avatar -- crafting a spell like that is pretty much the pinnacle of mortal magic.
That said, his casting of it -- particularly his chosen victim -- was incredibly short-sighted. I don't think he gave a single thought to potential negative effects of the spell, not even the fact that he was stealing power from a deity.
This all goes back to the Terraseer telling Karsus of the prophecy of Mystryl's death. It wasn't really hubris that made him create and cast the spell, it was the fact that he wanted to protect her from the 'threat' that was coming by taking her place. I doubt the spell even was even meant to be permanent. He was looking to be a shield to her, not realizing that he became the sword by casting it.
One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to prevent it!!! |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 04:03:30
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Shame on me for not paying attention to a topic I participated in.
With regards to...
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk:
I must be missing some Karsus lore... or just too tired to remember it at the moment. What's the source for the tripartite soul bit? And does that explain the write-up in FR5 describing his still-beating heart continuing to pump out divine blood?
In so far as I am aware the original source for the Tripartite Soul of Karsus was the Second Edition book Powers and Pantheons, which contains an entry for Karsus. The entry notes that "It is believed Karsus cannot depart for the Realms until his sundered spirit is reforged into one." It indicates that Wulgreth ensnared Karsus' essence in this manner, trapping it in the exact moment in time in which Karsus realized his folly. As far as revenge goes, that is really mean. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 05:21:20
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Thank you, Sage and Edain!  I'll check those sources out after work tomorrow; I should have gone to bed an hour ago.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 12:58:11
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| Allright haters, instead of pissing on Karsus' divine grave let's figure out how he could have handled it better. Who in lieu of Mystryl should he have chosen divinity from. Actually, we could wonder what effects would have occured based on the different deities he would have targeted instead (so if he stole the divinity from Jergal, he would have lost control over the dead and all the Faithless and the False would break free of the wall and invade the realms perhaps?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 14:01:36
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| Karsus probably would have helped Bane and Co. steal the Tablets of Fate... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Why is there so much love for Karsus everywhere?
