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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Apr 2010 : 16:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Karsus probably would have helped Bane and Co. steal the Tablets of Fate...
He's too smart for that. He probably thought about that before stealing divinity but thought better of it. Probably laughed in his grave in the Astral Sea when the theft occured. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 00:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Allright haters, instead of pissing on Karsus' divine grave  let's figure out how he could have handled it better. Who in lieu of Mystryl should he have chosen divinity from. Actually, we could wonder what effects would have occured based on the different deities he would have targeted instead (so if he stole the divinity from Jergal, he would have lost control over the dead and all the Faithless and the False would break free of the wall and invade the realms perhaps??
How could he have done it better? He could have researched the issue of what was going on in Netheril, and tried casting a spell to reverse that. Taking a deity's power was about his ego, nothing more. Take the ego out of the equation, and there's a chance he could have acted intelligently and changed the course of Realms history. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 01:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Allright haters, instead of pissing on Karsus' divine grave let's figure out how he could have handled it better. Who in lieu of Mystryl should he have chosen divinity from. Actually, we could wonder what effects would have occured based on the different deities he would have targeted instead (so if he stole the divinity from Jergal, he would have lost control over the dead and all the Faithless and the False would break free of the wall and invade the realms perhaps??
How could he have done it better? He could have researched the issue of what was going on in Netheril, and tried casting a spell to reverse that. Taking a deity's power was about his ego, nothing more. Take the ego out of the equation, and there's a chance he could have acted intelligently and changed the course of Realms history.
Indeed.
Most sources tend to agree that Karsus was arrogant, full of self-confidence and extremely ambitious. There really wasn't any other way for this to all go down. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 03:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<chop>I can't immediately recall the printed source [I think it *might* have been LEoF]... but the "Karsus After The Fall" section on this page provides some details:- http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Karsus
The second half of that particular section of the linked page seems to me to be rather tongue-in-cheek, if thou wert to ask me... but the stuff in Powers and Pantheons and LEoF is good. Thanks again, Sage and Edain!  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 27 Apr 2010 03:49:47 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 03:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
I do admire how powerful he was, and admire the fact that he was able to come up with Karsus's Avatar -- crafting a spell like that is pretty much the pinnacle of mortal magic.
That said, his casting of it -- particularly his chosen victim -- was incredibly short-sighted. I don't think he gave a single thought to potential negative effects of the spell, not even the fact that he was stealing power from a deity.
This all goes back to the Terraseer telling Karsus of the prophecy of Mystryl's death. It wasn't really hubris that made him create and cast the spell, it was the fact that he wanted to protect her from the 'threat' that was coming by taking her place. I doubt the spell even was even meant to be permanent. He was looking to be a shield to her, not realizing that he became the sword by casting it.
Hrm... d'you think that maybe that was the Terraseer's goal all along? Maybe the sarrukh were disgusted by what humans were doing with their writings, and so put this plan into motion to put an end to it once and for all. If that's the scenario, and there are living, reproducing sarrukh elsewhere among the planes or the crystal spheres (I'm still a huge Spelljammer fan) as of DR 1375, I would suppose that they would be very interested to know that the survivors of Netheril are trying to rebuild their empire.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 27 Apr 2010 03:59:24 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 06:57:38
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| Well, the Terraseer is still around (at least he was in the Anauroch adventure book), and he helps you prevent the Shades from transforming the Nether Scrolls to be used with the Shadow Weave. So, that IS a possibility. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 14:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Allright haters, instead of pissing on Karsus' divine grave let's figure out how he could have handled it better. Who in lieu of Mystryl should he have chosen divinity from. Actually, we could wonder what effects would have occured based on the different deities he would have targeted instead (so if he stole the divinity from Jergal, he would have lost control over the dead and all the Faithless and the False would break free of the wall and invade the realms perhaps??
How could he have done it better? He could have researched the issue of what was going on in Netheril, and tried casting a spell to reverse that. Taking a deity's power was about his ego, nothing more. Take the ego out of the equation, and there's a chance he could have acted intelligently and changed the course of Realms history.
Egotistical you say? Don't you mean confident?   |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That may have been part of his reasoning for the decision... but I don't believe it was the "be all end all" of his decision making process.
I tend to agree. Karsus hardly trusted anyone. The Terraseer might have earned a well-deserved respect among the Netherese, but ultimately, to Karsus, he was just a peer who might be trying to manipulate him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 08:47:46
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| I like Karsus. I think he was a horribly misguided, excruciatingly egotistical, and completely foolhardy individual. But I like him. I think he works extremely well as a cautionary tale of the importance of discipline over talent, and of reach exceeding one's grasp. I like him as a tragic figure. A realms equivalent of Icarus, on a much grander scale. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 09:36:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I like Karsus. I think he was a horribly misguided, excruciatingly egotistical, and completely foolhardy individual. But I like him. I think he works extremely well as a cautionary tale of the importance of discipline over talent, and of reach exceeding one's grasp. I like him as a tragic figure. A realms equivalent of Icarus, on a much grander scale.
Considering his popularity and enduring fame, Achilles might be just as apt a parallel. After all, he has perhaps the most impressive resume of any mage from the Realms, is one of very few (perhaps even the only) mortals to succeed in deicide, and his actions led to a change in the fundamental nature of magic as accessed by mortal spellcasters. Of course, it cost him his life, but that's always the deal, isn't it? |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 11:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS, His RETURN IS NIGH AND LORD SHADOW WILL QUAKE IN FEAR!!!!
Lord Shadow/Telamont was Karsus friend :p
he married him to Alashar in secret and helped them fake their own deaths, as per sourcebook Empire of magic |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 12:37:15
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| In any case, my reply to the original question is that when a mage is so powerful that a single blunder can cause a realm shaking event that kills millions and alters the cosmos and other mortals ability to use magic, it definitely gains him some notoriety and popularity. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 15:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I really cant think of a single positive thing about Karsus (on which I am no expert I should add, I dislike the fact that they defined Netheril to much in the first place, I prefer it as a myth that can be used in the game as one sees fit.). Megalomaniac, power mad, ruthless and self centred? Not exactly my cup of tea.
Such people are always in history!
And people proclaiming their admiration for them at a later date is often scary.
But a real world discussion (and I have been tempted to draw a few parallels) here could get really ugly.
I'm a fan of Karsus myself. And yes, he was a self-centered lunatic with far too much power for his own good. But the point is, he's a fictional character. If someone like him existed in the real world and held that much power, I'd loathe him, but as a character, he's awesome. It's like being a fan of Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Yeah, they're evil totalitarian nutcases, but they're also cool. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 19:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS, His RETURN IS NIGH AND LORD SHADOW WILL QUAKE IN FEAR!!!!
Lord Shadow/Telamont was Karsus friend :p
he married him to Alashar in secret and helped them fake their own deaths, as per sourcebook Empire of magic.
People change. It's been years since the Fall. And Telamont is the supreme ruler of Reborn Netheril now. It's likely he'd refuse to share that position with anyone, friend or no friend. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 19:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That may have been part of his reasoning for the decision... but I don't believe it was the "be all end all" of his decision making process. And even with the inherent problems of the source, I tend to agree, for the most part, with what the Netheril tome tells us about Karsus's perception of the gods:- "Karsus believed that the gods were nothing more than mortals who had mastered magic that he hadn’t yet discovered." He was, thus, ultimately convinced he could attain that same level of power.
Dunno, it's a bit off. Most of them Netherese archwizards were convinced gods are frauds, and many croaked after they refused divine healing. And were militant about this in general.
Karsus put an effort into stealing divine power instead of trying to replicate, which implies that he believed it's not "just one more spell" and had some idea of what he was trying to work with.
Also, he didn't dismiss Phaerimm because how can something hide from high and mighty him, but became more alert. Again, unlike most others.
And once the things got obviously bad, did what he could to try and save Netheril.
All this sums up to: while Karsus was somewhat moronic and overconfident, he was much less so than most of his peers, while having more of a reason for overconfidence. So, he indeed was one of the best, and tried to do his best, it's just that this was still not good enough. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 20:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That may have been part of his reasoning for the decision... but I don't believe it was the "be all end all" of his decision making process. And even with the inherent problems of the source, I tend to agree, for the most part, with what the Netheril tome tells us about Karsus's perception of the gods:- "Karsus believed that the gods were nothing more than mortals who had mastered magic that he hadn’t yet discovered." He was, thus, ultimately convinced he could attain that same level of power.
Dunno, it's a bit off. Most of them Netherese archwizards were convinced gods are frauds, and many croaked after they refused divine healing. And were militant about this in general.
Karsus put an effort into stealing divine power instead of trying to replicate, which implies that he believed it's not "just one more spell" and had some idea of what he was trying to work with.
Also, he didn't dismiss Phaerimm because how can something hide from high and mighty him, but became more alert. Again, unlike most others.
And once the things got obviously bad, did what he could to try and save Netheril.
All this sums up to: while Karsus was somewhat moronic and overconfident, he was much less so than most of his peers, while having more of a reason for overconfidence. So, he indeed was one of the best, and tried to do his best, it's just that this was still not good enough.
I don't see that Karsus was necessarily trying to steal divine power, as much as he was simply going for more power -- which happened to be divine.
And considering that there were other, less risky methods, I don't see that he was less "moronic" than anyone else.
When someone destroys their entire nation thru pure egotism, it's pretty hard to argue that they're somehow not as bad as their now-dead countrymen. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 20:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'm a fan of Karsus myself. And yes, he was a self-centered lunatic with far too much power for his own good. But the point is, he's a fictional character. If someone like him existed in the real world and held that much power, I'd loathe him, but as a character, he's awesome. It's like being a fan of Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. Yeah, they're evil totalitarian nutcases, but they're also cool.
We can like a fictional character as an "outsider." I like Telamont, but if he was my father, I'd most likely spend every waking moment of my life plotting to kill him. I like Karsus, but if I were somehow related to him in the real world, I wouldn't hate him. I'd do everything in my power to steer him to the "right" path. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 02:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
All this sums up to: while Karsus was somewhat moronic and overconfident, he was much less so than most of his peers, while having more of a reason for overconfidence. So, he indeed was one of the best, and tried to do his best, it's just that this was still not good enough.
I disagree that he wasn't as overconfident as his peers. The quote I referenced earlier tells us pretty much what Karsus thought about himself and his over-inflated sense of magical ability:- "Karsus believed that the gods were nothing more than mortals who had mastered magic that he hadn’t yet discovered."
I emphasised the 'he' portion of that quote because it speaks volumes about the arrogance of Karsus. It's not an attitude shared by the Netherese. Rather it is the belief of Karsus himself, alone, that he hadn't yet discovered the ability to master magic to a level that could allow for his apotheosis. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I emphasised the 'he' portion of that quote because it speaks volumes about the arrogance of Karsus. It's not an attitude shared by the Netherese.
I disagree. While not all of them were, most of them were certainly arrogant and overconfident, likely more than Karsus was. Let's take for example their response to the One King's summon. The lich brought his large army with him, yet the Netherese sent (or asked?) only Lady Polaris (who only brought a small retinue) to deal with the supposed great threat to their lands. When provoked, Lady Polaris even told the One King that her "peers couldn't be bothered by this matter." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 14:27:16
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| I agree with that. The Netherese were in general possessed of a belief that they were the greatest civilization/race and that the lives of others were unimportant when compared to their desires. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 15:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I emphasised the 'he' portion of that quote because it speaks volumes about the arrogance of Karsus. It's not an attitude shared by the Netherese.
I disagree. While not all of them were, most of them were certainly arrogant and overconfident, likely more than Karsus was. Let's take for example their response to the One King's summon. The lich brought his large army with him, yet the Netherese sent (or asked?) only Lady Polaris (who only brought a small retinue) to deal with the supposed great threat to their lands. When provoked, Lady Polaris even told the One King that her "peers couldn't be bothered by this matter."
It could be argued that all arcanists share some measure of arrogance, certainly. In fact, I would imagine most mages all tend to carry some degree of self-assurance and arrogance as a result of the powers at their command. But there was only one Netherese Arcanist who sought to challenge a god and attempt to steal her power. And that was Karsus.
So if it wasn't a level of arrogance that would've dwarfed the collective arrogance of all the other Netherse Arcanists combined, then I'm not sure what else would qualify. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:31:43
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Not challenging a god doesn't make them any less arrogant than Karsus. It may simply mean they're not half the genius that Karsus was. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:49:00
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We are also not talking about a mere deity here - we are talking about Mystryl. Stealing power and even killing demigods and full-fledged deities is accepted and even somewhat of a common practice amongst the 'high & mighty', but Mystryl?
Thats arrogance of a whole 'nother level right there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 18:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not challenging a god doesn't make them any less arrogant than Karsus.
Not challenging the most powerful entity known to exist doesn't mean they're less arrogant?!? How, pray tell, could one try something more arrogant than that?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It may simply mean they're not half the genius that Karsus was.
I'd say it would make them more of a genius -- they didn't demonstrate the same level of folly that he did. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Nov 2012 18:13:55 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 18:50:04
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Heh. You're free to look at it that way, just don't expect others to follow the same line of reasoning. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 19:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh. You're free to look at it that way, just don't expect others to follow the same line of reasoning.
I could offer you the same advice. Especially since you declined to offer a greater example of arrogance. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 21:48:20
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| for the same reason that, that people what to marry serial killers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 01:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not challenging a god doesn't make them any less arrogant than Karsus. It may simply mean they're not half the genius that Karsus was.
Genius only factors into it partly, not as a whole. Especially since Karsus ultimately failed to control all that power. His genius really didn't prepare him for that.
Karsus was the only Arcanist who believed he could challenge a god and take his/her power. Karsus was the only Arcanist to concoct such a plan and put it into action. And Karsus was the only Arcanist to fail so devastatingly as a result of his arrogant presumption. |
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Why is there so much love for Karsus everywhere?
