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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 14:59:43
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| Brilliant, man! I applaude you for your post that have sense! |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 15:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Thauramarth,
I agree with you that a standing army could become as problematic as mercenaries except for the fact that you can build traditions into a standing army over time. The United States would be a very good example of where for the most part the military has stayed out of politics.
Except that you're comparing apples and oranges, societies that are completely different in almost every way imaginable.
And you're ignoring the actual facts of history. Which include: the US has not had a standing army of any size historically - we go to war, and then we disband. Only since WWII has that not been true.
Nor would it be fair to say that the military has stayed out of politics - the removal of Douglas MacArthur was enormously controversial, and arguably contributed to Truman's decision not to run in the 1952 election. Bill Clinton's lack of military record was a recurring point made against him both during his election campaigns and during office. And you'd be naive in the extreme to believe that the military doesn't take a very active role in the foreign policy of the US. (That's for better or worse, I'm not interested in the various opinions. But the fact remains, which contradicts your basic assertion).
Moreover, the number of generals who have gone on to become president is telling: Washington, Taylor, Grant, T. Roosevelt, Eisenhower, all used their importance as military commanders to turn around and become president - hardly an indicator of a military that stays out of politics.
And that's just the US. Obviously, this is glossing over the power of the military in today's China, the 1961 coup attempt against de Gaulle, etc. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
Edited by - capnvan on 27 Apr 2010 16:03:40 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 16:12:31
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Amarel,
Great post. I think what you're getting at is that a nation would need a modern, loyal, and well trained force to be successful on the late DR1300s battlefield.
Capnvan,
Yet every modern nation has a standing army. Also the US has always had a standing army, granted at times it was very small. (edit: I owe you a better reply, but it got busy at work there for a little. What ever risks nations may run with standing armies, I think the threat is much larger from mercenaries. Plus standing armies will have a better morale as they are fighting for the flag and love ones. In the Forgotten Realms many nations have standing armies and are moving foward, Waterdeep is behind the times. I havn't read any of the post 4e Waterdeep stuff, but I bet Waterdeep is in decline.
BTW, I found some more lore on Waterdeep's Guard from Hordes of Dragonspear:
3rd Company, High Guard of Waterdeep
100 strong based in Daggerford.
This seems to suggest a larger force. If the Guard was only 1,200 members, would they keep 100 of them so far south in Daggerford? Also, it seems Waterdeep uses conventional military order of battle. (companies, etc.) |
Edited by - Riverwind on 27 Apr 2010 18:20:11 |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 20:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
*snip*Capnvan,
Yet every modern nation has a standing army. Also the US has always had a standing army, granted at times it was very small. (edit: I owe you a better reply, but it got busy at work there for a little. What ever risks nations may run with standing armies, I think the threat is much larger from mercenaries. Plus standing armies will have a better morale as they are fighting for the flag and love ones. *snip*
Indeed - the US Army was, at many times, smaller than the Waterdeep Guard per capita.
No. Not every modern nation has a standing army - I direct you to Costa Rica.
No - standing armies do not fight for the leader. I can give you dozens of examples, but the ARVN strikes me most immediately. Try almost any country in Africa. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 21:59:34
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No, the "High Guard" was an army mustered just for this campaign. Nor was "3rd Company" Realmslore. It was a TSR designer "translating" Realmspeak into modern American military lingo, that made it into print.
love,
THO |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 23:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Capnvan,
Yet every modern nation has a standing army. Also the US has always had a standing army, granted at times it was very small. (edit: I owe you a better reply, but it got busy at work there for a little. What ever risks nations may run with standing armies, I think the threat is much larger from mercenaries. Plus standing armies will have a better morale as they are fighting for the flag and love ones. In the Forgotten Realms many nations have standing armies and are moving foward, Waterdeep is behind the times. I havn't read any of the post 4e Waterdeep stuff, but I bet Waterdeep is in decline.
Uhm... I really do not see how establishing a standing army is required to "move forward." Just remember - Waterdeep DOES have a standing army - the Guard and the Watch, which suit Waterdeep's needs just fine in peacetime. In wartime, they up the numbers. RL nations can do this through conscription (which is not exactly a panacea either).
In purely defensive battles, Waterdeep could probably increase the size of its forces by enlisting all able-bodied men and women (this was done during Myrkul's denizens' invasion of Waterdeep during the Time of Troubles).
If Waterdeep needs an expeditionary force, it needs professionals. It cannot afford to conscript its working population to go fight a battle afield - the economy probably could not sustain it. Besides, as the saying goes, one volunteer is better than ten conscripts. So, for an expeditionary force you need professionals, which means either a large standing army, with all the attendant disadvantages (huge overhead costs, risk of military coups), or you constitute a mercenary force, and dismiss it after the war is over.
I'm just curious - why do you think Waterdeep should have a larger standing army? In its own history, the last time it had a large standing army (Yes, Raurlor, Raurlor, Raurlor), the city turned into a military dictatorship.
To quote our old German philosopher friend - "War is a continuation of politics by other means." What would the political goal be that would require Waterdeep to have a large standing army? |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2010 : 23:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Thauramarth,
I agree with you that a standing army could become as problematic as mercenaries except for the fact that you can build traditions into a standing army over time. The United States would be a very good example of where for the most part the military has stayed out of politics.
I am trying to avoid a debate on real world issues, since, as THO and Big Ed have so often pointed out, it would be a mistake to simply transpose modern ideas to the Realms but, as you say "For the most part...". So a standing army is not exactly perfect either, even in the example you cite. Let's not forget, however, that as late as the mid 20th century, in many nations around the world, civilian oversight of the armed forces was far from the norm, and in some parts of the world still is not. Policy is shaped by past experiences, and Waterdeep's past experiences with large standing armies simply have not been that good.
Again, this is not to say that Waterdeep's current security policy is perfect for every situation. In fact (and I am paraphrasing Winston C. here), it may actually be the worst form of security policy (if you do not take into account all the alternatives). A big standing army would solve some problems, would make some existing ones worse or a lot worse, and would create some new ones. And the Lords of Waterdeep have decided that the drawbacks of a large standing army outweigh the advantages. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2010 : 15:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, the "High Guard" was an army mustered just for this campaign. Nor was "3rd Company" Realmslore. It was a TSR designer "translating" Realmspeak into modern American military lingo, that made it into print.
love,
THO
It's been in print in two FR materials that I've read that Waterdeep keeps a garrison down in Daggerford. It's in print in Hordes of Dragonspear and in Under Illefarn. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2010 : 15:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Thauramarth,
I agree with you that a standing army could become as problematic as mercenaries except for the fact that you can build traditions into a standing army over time. The United States would be a very good example of where for the most part the military has stayed out of politics.
I am trying to avoid a debate on real world issues, since, as THO and Big Ed have so often pointed out, it would be a mistake to simply transpose modern ideas to the Realms but, as you say "For the most part...". So a standing army is not exactly perfect either, even in the example you cite. Let's not forget, however, that as late as the mid 20th century, in many nations around the world, civilian oversight of the armed forces was far from the norm, and in some parts of the world still is not. Policy is shaped by past experiences, and Waterdeep's past experiences with large standing armies simply have not been that good.
Again, this is not to say that Waterdeep's current security policy is perfect for every situation. In fact (and I am paraphrasing Winston C. here), it may actually be the worst form of security policy (if you do not take into account all the alternatives). A big standing army would solve some problems, would make some existing ones worse or a lot worse, and would create some new ones. And the Lords of Waterdeep have decided that the drawbacks of a large standing army outweigh the advantages.
Just reading The Silver Marches and it seems many of the leaders there are pushing for a larger standing army. Granted they are on the front lines so to speak, but Waterdeep should do her part in helping the north. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 28 Apr 2010 15:49:11 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2010 : 16:09:27
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Riverwind, your statement that there's a Waterdhavian garrison in Daggerford and my reply to you about the High Guard have nothing directly to do with each other. Both are true, but you seem to be implying that the garrison's existence means my information about the High Guard must be incorrect. Not so.
Waterdeep - - in peacetime, not just when at war - - patrols outwards along the main trade-roads leading to its gates. These are mounted patrols, and Ed has mentioned in several places in lore (notably the Environs of Waterdeep article in DRAGON, but also in his later "New Adventures of Volo" column) that there are stables and "turnaround' keeps or fortified houses in the hamlets along these patrol routes, notably at the "end of patrol" points. Patrols get fresh horses there, and provisions and shelter in severe weather, and of course these places are defended so they can't be plundered or a foe of Waterdeep can't just wait for a tired patrol and ambush them. THAT'S what the garrisons you read about are for. They get bolstered in times of actual war (for example the fight around Dragonspear, which was based around an incident in our campaign), of course, but it's wrong to think of them as representing territorial expansionist ambitions or "beach heads" for any sort of short-term expansion of rule or influence. What they DO is prevent brigands from pouncing on caravans and peddlers with a few pack-mules as they depart or are bout to enter Waterdeep (and so discourage overland trade).
In your posts in this thread, you seem to be advocating a larger military for Waterdeep, that's a standing army organized more along real-world modern American lines.
That's just fine for your campaign, if you want such a force, but it doesn't "fit" the "baseline" Realms established in print. Much of Waterdeep's popularity as a trade center in the 1300s DR is based on the perception of the wider Realms that it's a place where money talks and local rulership are referees in a busy mercantile setting, rather than tyrants or having any imperial ambitions. If traders ever see Waterdeep as tending towards becoming a kingdom or empire or military power, they will take their trade elsewhere (Baldur's Gate, Tharsult, and several other Sword coast port cities are all prime candidates).
And, yes, applying real-world examples to the Realms is a trilfe perilous, unless you're prepared to "think through" the consequences of having lots of spellcasters, both divine and arcane. Massed formations, shield-walls, and similar tactics are unlikely to be popular in any setting where spells can readily ravage such inviting targets. You might think that's a detail, but it does in fact affect EVERYTHING in terms of military organization.
Please don't see this post as a rebuff; I'm just trying to correct and clarify, and am happy to see both gamers "do their own thing" in the Realms (that is, after all, why it was published and shared with the wider world), and interesting debate about alternatives and possible future developments.
So, let's talk... 
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 03:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Riverwind, your statement that there's a Waterdhavian garrison in Daggerford and my reply to you about the High Guard have nothing directly to do with each other. Both are true, but you seem to be implying that the garrison's existence means my information about the High Guard must be incorrect. Not so.
Waterdeep - - in peacetime, not just when at war - - patrols outwards along the main trade-roads leading to its gates. These are mounted patrols, and Ed has mentioned in several places in lore (notably the Environs of Waterdeep article in DRAGON, but also in his later "New Adventures of Volo" column) that there are stables and "turnaround' keeps or fortified houses in the hamlets along these patrol routes, notably at the "end of patrol" points. Patrols get fresh horses there, and provisions and shelter in severe weather, and of course these places are defended so they can't be plundered or a foe of Waterdeep can't just wait for a tired patrol and ambush them. THAT'S what the garrisons you read about are for. They get bolstered in times of actual war (for example the fight around Dragonspear, which was based around an incident in our campaign), of course, but it's wrong to think of them as representing territorial expansionist ambitions or "beach heads" for any sort of short-term expansion of rule or influence. What they DO is prevent brigands from pouncing on caravans and peddlers with a few pack-mules as they depart or are bout to enter Waterdeep (and so discourage overland trade).
I'm not suggesting that Waterdeep become expansionist, but as you say they do need to protect trade along The Trade Way. Running patrols 120 miles south to Daggerford while keeping garrisons in places like Daggerford and Zundbridge would take a certain number of troops, and that is just to the south. I would think Waterdeep would also run patrols along The High Road and keep garrisons along that route, again taking troops. Then there's points east like The Ampmail Road and the farming centers in places like Goldenfields which would all need some type of force level. Then there's the Dessarin river valley, a very important transportation route, would need protection. All this while the Guard still needs to perform its functions in Waterdeep, manning forts, gates, prisons, training, rest, guarding the entrances to the Citadel of the Bloody Hand, ect. IMO, you quickly run out of troops if only 1,200 are on the roster.
quote:
In your posts in this thread, you seem to be advocating a larger military for Waterdeep, that's a standing army organized more along real-world modern American lines.
No, not American, but maybe Cormyr. But yes I am advocating a larger miitary fo Waterdeep.
quote:
That's just fine for your campaign, if you want such a force, but it doesn't "fit" the "baseline" Realms established in print. Much of Waterdeep's popularity as a trade center in the 1300s DR is based on the perception of the wider Realms that it's a place where money talks and local rulership are referees in a busy mercantile setting, rather than tyrants or having any imperial ambitions. If traders ever see Waterdeep as tending towards becoming a kingdom or empire or military power, they will take their trade elsewhere (Baldur's Gate, Tharsult, and several other Sword coast port cities are all prime candidates).
Merchants want their investments protected, and a weak Waterdeep does not protect those interest. Again, if we look at Cormyr a place with a strong military and a very strong economy. Cormyr has 13,000 troops, plus militias, the War Wizards, and the Red Ravens (which are a front for the crown.) Nobody complians that Cormyr is a police state, because they're not, they're just strong.
quote:
And, yes, applying real-world examples to the Realms is a trilfe perilous, unless you're prepared to "think through" the consequences of having lots of spellcasters, both divine and arcane. Massed formations, shield-walls, and similar tactics are unlikely to be popular in any setting where spells can readily ravage such inviting targets. You might think that's a detail, but it does in fact affect EVERYTHING in terms of military organization.
True, yet places like Cormyr keep a strong army. Also I'm not suggesting Waterdeep have 50,000 troops, but they would need to keep a stronger force than the stated 1,200. If Waterdeep just pulled 1% from the surrounding countryside into the army, that's 10,000 troops. I don't think anyone would think 1% would be a huge army.
quote:
Please don't see this post as a rebuff; I'm just trying to correct and clarify, and am happy to see both gamers "do their own thing" in the Realms (that is, after all, why it was published and shared with the wider world), and interesting debate about alternatives and possible future developments.
So, let's talk...
love,
THO
THO, thanks for helping me out. I like having this coversation. In the end, Waterdeep is a great city, but could be greater if she was stronger. IMO, and most likely I'm wrong here, is that the designers did not want to portray Waterdeep as some power hungry city so they made the troop levels low. I think they went too far. |
Edited by - Riverwind on 29 Apr 2010 03:34:46 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 05:47:03
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Rivenwind while I would need to look more closely at the numbers, those of us that have been reading Candlekeep long know Ed has put much design effort onto the Realms.
The protection of Waterdeep and trade routes that we have expanded to does not always require numbers. The level of skill certainly can be a factor. Even one plated Level one fighter stands a good chance to defeat 3 leather clad thieves (Edition version and tactics of course can change that). It is not just the number of bodies an Army has, it is also a factor the skill, equipment and experience. Quality can defeat Quantity.
It does clearly make sense to have strong house bases at key trade routes. It clearly is useful to patrol the roads as well. Also though trader caravans travel with their own protection. No one expecting to make a profit would travel without guards of their own. This because of things like kobolds, goblins and orcs (OH My).
As THO has said, as Ed has said, the Realms are a starting point for a world to RP in. There is nothing stopping you from increasing the peace time level of the Guard, the Watch and the other groups that serve as the defense force. Of course one thing THO also indicated the 1200 Guard was the official number, that the actual number always is different. What she did not indicate if number was lower or higher, however my impression is that even during peace the number is higher then official claims. Much like governments always claiming they are not spying on other nations.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 14:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
...however my impression is that even during peace the number is higher then official claims. Much like governments always claiming they are not spying on other nations.
I agree with you, and that's what FR1 says, that the true number might be 3 times the given amount. My original question was what people thought the "real" amount was? Although, throughout this thread most have said that 1,200 is plenty.
IMO, I would think when combining all of Waterdeep's different services the number should be closer to 15,000. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 16:00:33
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Yes, Waterdeep does patrol through Amphail, etc. That's what the other published lore sources I referenced describe.
However, you're incorrect in thinking Waterdeep would patrol the Dessarin (and Bargewright Inn), because you're looking at things from the "What should Waterdeep do?" viewpoint.
The established Realms "reality" is that the elves, the dwarves (you might recall the famous and sacred dwarven arch), and other human-centric powers (many of them gathered together in the various Silver Marches councils; Silverymoon is prominent among them) don't WANT Waterdeep to patrol the Dessarin or grow more militarily dominant.
That's the point you seem to be consistently missing: that in the 1300s and thereafter Waterdeep is the popular trading center that it is BECAUSE it avoids becoming a militarily-strong power...so the traders who ship to there and gather there to do deals keep coming, rather than going elsewhere (e.g. Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, or even Mintarn). As I said earlier, by all means do this in your campaign, but advocating a large standing army for "us all," in a city that doesn't have it for very good design reasons that Ed worked through in the early 1970s, doesn't make much sense to me.
Comparing Waterdeep to Cormyr, a realm that has always had foes (the elves, the dragons, Sembia, Westgate, the Zhentarim, now the Shadovar, Amnians and other overland traders who don't want a strong realm controlling the Fallen Stars end of the overland trade routes) either within its lands or on its borders, and that has always had a very different internal structure, really is comparing apples to oranges.
Consider the Roaringhorns, a noble family that's noble in both places; they have very confused family relationships because of the differences between the two places.
Perhaps much of this reaction on my part comes from knowing the Realms more deeply than the published products impart, but I just don't see Waterdeep ever going in the direction you seem to be advocating. Not without inviting a swift military response from rivals.
love,
THO |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 16:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Yes, Waterdeep does patrol through Amphail, etc. That's what the other published lore sources I referenced describe.
However, you're incorrect in thinking Waterdeep would patrol the Dessarin (and Bargewright Inn), because you're looking at things from the "What should Waterdeep do?" viewpoint.
The established Realms "reality" is that the elves, the dwarves (you might recall the famous and sacred dwarven arch), and other human-centric powers (many of them gathered together in the various Silver Marches councils; Silverymoon is prominent among them) don't WANT Waterdeep to patrol the Dessarin or grow more militarily dominant.
It says in COS that Waterdeep does keep a garrison in Rassalantar and patrols the area in between which is right in the Dessarin River Valley, not to mention Waterdeep keeps troops right near the mouth of the Dessarin at Zundbridge.
quote:
That's the point you seem to be consistently missing: that in the 1300s and thereafter Waterdeep is the popular trading center that it is BECAUSE it avoids becoming a militarily-strong power...so the traders who ship to there and gather there to do deals keep coming, rather than going elsewhere (e.g. Baldur's Gate, Athkatla, or even Mintarn).
I'm not sure why merchants would care if Waterdeep had a larger military. In fact, I think they would welcome it because they want safe roads. Now granted, if taxes and fees were raised, and inspections were increased, then sure maybe merchants would seek other markets. But, at the end of the day, security is good for trade.
quote:
As I said earlier, by all means do this in your campaign, but advocating a large standing army for "us all," in a city that doesn't have it for very good design reasons that Ed worked through in the early 1970s, doesn't make much sense to me.
THO, I'm not asking for permission to do this in my campaign, I'm just trying to see where other people stand.
quote:
Comparing Waterdeep to Cormyr, a realm that has always had foes (the elves, the dragons, Sembia, Westgate, the Zhentarim, now the Shadovar, Amnians and other overland traders who don't want a strong realm controlling the Fallen Stars end of the overland trade routes) either within its lands or on its borders, and that has always had a very different internal structure, really is comparing apples to oranges.
When taking into account the surrounding countryside, both Waterdeep and Cormry have very similar populations. Also Waterdeep has foes just like any nation/city state.
quote:
Perhaps much of this reaction on my part comes from knowing the Realms more deeply than the published products impart...
Well, that's not fair. If it's published it's canon, if it's not, then it's not canon. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 18:57:08
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Heh. I'm not trying to be fair or unfair, or even win an argument. Nor is any of this all that upsetting to me (and I'd not dream of thinking of permissions). I'm explaining to you gently and carefully why your "bulk up the military" doesn't FIT Waterdeep.
Let's look at your latest points.
The biggie: Cormyr isn't Waterdeep, and Waterdeep isn't Cormyr. The one is a city-state that in settlement terms, has never been more than a port. The other is a kingdom with natural boundaries (the sea, the mountain ranges) that was originally a dragon's demesne, then an elven land, and then a human realm. From the first, that realm has fought and fought: first just to exist, and then against a sequence of foes that NEVER really ended until Azoun IV's reign (and even then, there were pirates and a series of rebellions). You seem to equate similar populations (and I'm not sure why you think they're that similar) with identical military needs and outcomes. That's simplistic reasoning at best.
The Dessarin valley. I stated at the beginning that Waterdeep patrols the trade roads leading to it, and the limits to those patrols (well-established in lore, which I referenced). You chose to ignore that and instead implied that I was incorrect in saying Waterdeep wasn't patrolling the rest of the valley, by citing the very lore that I'd referenced. There's "unfair."
You seem to overlooking the entire geopolitical/diplomatic/treaties/balance of power layer to all of this - - or assuming that if Waterdeep shouts and waves its larger army, it will override such concerns. Not so, particularly with orc hordes always having to be watched for and thought about.
Hoondatha said it very well: you aren't listening to the points of others. Yet this is a good thread, and you raise interesting points on how Waterdeep COULD expand.
As it happens, in the post preceding your answer to me, you hit upon something important: rather than having a large army, that could get out of hand (coups, etc.) Waterdeep has many services. I'd put their combined strength as usually around 12,000 rather than 15,000 (due to deaths, wounds, and just plain sickness, they are NEVER at full strength), but all of them have trainees that could be called on if war or an obvious threat "broke out."
So, let's talk. 
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 29 Apr 2010 19:30:50 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 20:10:46
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Just to get things strait for the slow reader...
If Waterdeep drafted all reserves in times crysis or all out war, theare comebined forces would be arround 12000 men. Divided amoung diffirent kinds of corps.
What kind of time does Waterdeep need to deploy there troops?
I might be off topic and for that im sorry! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 22:28:02
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No, definitely not off topic, we just haven't gotten around to mobilization times yet.
The answer would depend partially on at least two things: how much warning Waterdeep had prior to the call going out, and where the troops are coming from. Assuming most and/or all of the troops are actually citizens of the city, a mobilization could happen fairly quickly. If, however, much of them are actually farmers in outlying farms, it would take time for word to reach them and for them to report in. Waterdeep should be able to mobilize much faster than, say, Battledale, simply due to being more concentrated.
My guess would be that Waterdeep could get most of its reserves equipped and on the walls in less than a day, even from a standing start. They would have armories scattered across the city and every member of the reserve would know where they would need to report. The amount of chaos on the streets could slow things considerably, however, so you'd probably also have to factor in time of year (ie: city filled to bursting with merchants in summer would mobilize slower). On the other hand, if, say, an orc horde came thundering out of the north in the middle of the trading season, the Lords could quickly conscript all of the caravan guards to aid in the city's defense.
Those are my off-the-cuff thoughts; I'll be really curious to hear what THO and/or Ed have to say on the subject. Do the Lords ever run city-wide drills for the reserve? If so, how often do they happen and what do they consist of? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2010 : 23:13:06
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| Hoondatha, well my Evil OverLord does have reserves, but no drills. There again the standing Guard/Army is 10,000 and the Watch 1,000 for lands that have less then Waterdeep in population and territory. Taxes are however a bit higher then I expect Waterdeep collects. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 01:48:13
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Yes, reservists do get drilled, often but not on a regular basis (so no one can take nefarious advantage of knowing when drills are going to happen). Mustering points are particular wall-towers (with their aforementioned sub-armories) and behind various guild headquarters (which has the side-effect of making the guilds feel watched ). Drills include getting to specific places swiftly and in good order, and the various tunnels (Castle to Palace, those that honeycomb the upper reaches of Mount Waterdeep, and the sewer routes, unlocked for the purpose) are often used. Drills occur at night and in bad weather as well as in daylight fair weather, and Watch patrols (and the "duty" members of the Watchful Order) are always informed to prevent unfortunate mistakes and "accidents."
A ward or city evacuation might be a nightmare, but just getting the reserves and trainees to an "armed and alert" status, awaiting horncall signals to do X or Y, can be accomplished in two hours at most by day, and four hours or so by night (severe winter weather would slow this, but of course would also slow most attackers).
As for getting the walls manned, I direct everyone's attention again to the city maps. The most vulnerable part of the city, to a land-based foe, is the southern gate area. The northern gate has a "wall within a wall, with killing field in between," the east wall is atop the lip of a hard rock cliff, and Mount Waterdeep is itself a fortress commanding fields of fire along the beach outside Sea Ward, and the northern half of the harbour. So a defending officer usually doesn't have to lavish defenders along the entire line of the city walls. (And again, Ed thought of this about forty years ago, and details of it have featured in play in the home campaign and at GenCon public Realms play sessions since GenCon 17 at least - - because it was GenCon 17 where Ed ran the "murder in the cliffside Waterdhavian villa" adventure.)
Ed will tell you that Waterdeep has always most feared an attack from small guerilla bands who have entered the city posing as merchants, spread out to stay at various inns, and then begun covert small-scale operations. Though the current "Eddie Presents Waterdeep" novels will show a variety of threats Waterdeep should beware, before the series is done.
I hope some of this is helpful.
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 30 Apr 2010 01:49:28 |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 05:16:33
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quote:
That's the point you seem to be consistently missing: that in the 1300s and thereafter Waterdeep is the popular trading center that it is BECAUSE it avoids becoming a militarily-strong power...so the traders who ship to there and gather there to do deals keep coming, rather than going elsewhere.
I'm not sure I understand what one has to do with the other? Why would merchants/traders care if Waterdeep was a military power or not? Their main concern would be security and access to markets. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 07:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
That's the point you seem to be consistently missing: that in the 1300s and thereafter Waterdeep is the popular trading center that it is BECAUSE it avoids becoming a militarily-strong power...so the traders who ship to there and gather there to do deals keep coming, rather than going elsewhere.
I'm not sure I understand what one has to do with the other? Why would merchants/traders care if Waterdeep was a military power or not? Their main concern would be security and access to markets.
It is both social and economic that drives policy. A high military state restricts movement between wards, making it harder to reach the markets. The merchants/traders would also care about the taxes/fees they would have to pay for that much security (more government spending the greater need for revenue).
North Korea comes to mind as a place few merchants/traders would prefer to do business in. While I am not sure of their tax structure, from what reports that leak out doing any business there has hazards. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 07:22:49
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quote:
It is both social and economic that drives policy. A high military state restricts movement between wards, making it harder to reach the markets. The merchants/traders would also care about the taxes/fees they would have to pay for that much security (more government spending the greater need for revenue).
North Korea comes to mind as a place few merchants/traders would prefer to do business in. While I am not sure of their tax structure, from what reports that leak out doing any business there has hazards.
There's big difference between a military state that restricts movement and what I'm suggesting. When did I ever say I wanted Waterdeep to be some kind of tolertarian state? I didn't. I have said that I thought Waterdeep should have a larger standing army, that does not mean checkpoints on every corner.
As far as taxes go, we really don't know because we really don't know about Waterdeep's financial situation. But even if some taxes were increased, the merchants would be getting a service for their money; safe roads.
Also, this is from COS talking about how small the Guard is:
"Efforts to bolster the Guard presence near the Rat Hills have slowly faded because Waterdeep's Guard is STRETCHED TOO THIN to keep a close eye on the situation." |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 07:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
No, the "High Guard" was an army mustered just for this campaign. Nor was "3rd Company" Realmslore. It was a TSR designer "translating" Realmspeak into modern American military lingo, that made it into print.
love,
THO
Just to point out, the 3rd Company, High Guard of Waterdeep is also referenced here:
http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/pdfs/North_170-238_daggerford.pdf
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 08:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
That's the point you seem to be consistently missing: that in the 1300s and thereafter Waterdeep is the popular trading center that it is BECAUSE it avoids becoming a militarily-strong power...so the traders who ship to there and gather there to do deals keep coming, rather than going elsewhere.
I'm not sure I understand what one has to do with the other? Why would merchants/traders care if Waterdeep was a military power or not? Their main concern would be security and access to markets.
As far as I remmember the medieval trading guilds and family's where not exactly pro-state. The weaker the government the stronger the traders. Waterdhavian patrols would make the roads somewhat safer (but not much as the area is to big to be manageable and a system of armed stops would be needed to give the patrols a base and the traders safe resting spots), but not enough to keep them from having to travel in armed caravans. As much of the trade is done by more or less organised groups anyway and the system built around these lines, then the road taxes and gate taxes enforced to cover the increased army and patrols would more serve to irritate the traders than being of much use.
In the situations where real threats to the trade occurs, such as a marauding dragon family near the road or a large humanoid tribe, able to take on whole caravans, establishing a stronghold near the roads, Waterdeep would probably take some sort of action. But this would be done by hired adventurers, a proposed reward or mercenaries from Amn or the Dragon Coast(who never got near the city itself)being hired.
And there is also the factor that the Western Heartlands are more or less a neutral zone. If Waterdeep started to organize along the trade-routs this would not sit well with Amn, Cormyr or the trading city's in between. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 30 Apr 2010 10:21:22 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 09:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
It is both social and economic that drives policy. A high military state restricts movement between wards, making it harder to reach the markets. The merchants/traders would also care about the taxes/fees they would have to pay for that much security (more government spending the greater need for revenue).
North Korea comes to mind as a place few merchants/traders would prefer to do business in. While I am not sure of their tax structure, from what reports that leak out doing any business there has hazards.
There's big difference between a military state that restricts movement and what I'm suggesting. When did I ever say I wanted Waterdeep to be some kind of tolertarian state? I didn't. I have said that I thought Waterdeep should have a larger standing army, that does not mean checkpoints on every corner.
As far as taxes go, we really don't know because we really don't know about Waterdeep's financial situation. But even if some taxes were increased, the merchants would be getting a service for their money; safe roads.
Riverwind, of course you never said that Waterdeep would want to become a totalitarian state. Thing is, neither do the Waterdhavians. And the last time they had a huge standing army (all sing along with me: Rau-aurlor!), it DID turn into a dictatorship. Waterdeep's attitude towards a large armed force is shaped by its own history. And its own history had lead Waterdeep to consider that when war is about, there are alternatives to large standing armies, and when it's peace, they're an expensive inconvenience at best, and a hotbed for would-be tyrants at worst.
As for safe roads brought about by taxes... Every merchant caravan in the Realms hires armed guards to protect it from bandits, goblins, and worse. That is expensive. If they had a way to dispense with that, for instance, by having fully secure roads, then they might be willing to bear such a cost.
Suppose, however, that Waterdeep does fully secure the roads within its geographical reach. Rassalanter is around 45 miles away, Zundbridge around 25 miles. That would be the extent of Waterdeep's control. No, let's say a caravan is coming in from Scornubel, which is (in a straight line) around 700-750 miles away. Regardless of how well protected and safe the last 25 miles are, for the other 725, merchants will still need armed guards, and pay for them. And "foreign trade" is Waterdeep's lifeblood, the opinion of the "foreign merchants" counts for a lot. No matter how big
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Also, this is from COS talking about how small the Guard is:
"Efforts to bolster the Guard presence near the Rat Hills have slowly faded because Waterdeep's Guard is STRETCHED TOO THIN to keep a close eye on the situation."
Waterdeep's armed forces may not be big enough to ensure 100% security. But they will never be, and they can never be. And in this particular case, what would the response of Waterdeep be? If I were the Lords, I'd keep the Guard at a safe distance, and offer bounties for every wererat ear brought back. The "army" of unemployed low-level (and higher level...) adventurers and caravan guards would rush to get the job done... ("Here be thy quest - bring me ten diseased rat tails..."  ). Keep in mind that Waterdeep has been attacked on several occasions (and in a universe with archmages, krakens, and hordes of demons, it's impossible to be strong enough to dissuade every and all attacks), but has never been overrun, thanks to a combination of factors, but a standing army was/is probably not the foremost of them. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 09:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well, that's not fair. If it's published it's canon, if it's not, then it's not canon.
It's pretty hard to cry, "Canon!" when the very point of the thread you created contradicts the canon. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 09:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
But even if some taxes were increased, the merchants would be getting a service for their money; safe roads.
It seems quite clear from the high volume of land traffic in and out of Waterdeep that the trade roads, at least within range of the city's current, canon, patrols, are sufficiently safe now for the merchants. Why would they be interested in paying more for the same?
Again, your basic premise is that Waterdeep's armed forces are insufficient to protect it and its interests. And yet, the very canon that you keep offering up as evidence makes it clear that in fact Waterdeep is probably the most secure place in the North. |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 09:42:04
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Jorkens and Thauramarth,
I get what both of you are saying that most traders would still need guards no matter how hard Waterdeep attempted to control the countyside. I also do get the point that most traders most likely prefer a weaker state. Having said that, the population in the North needs to stop acting like the wild west, and someone needs to establish some order.
Thauramarth, your point on Raurlor is well taken, as is the point that people in Waterdeep might be very weary of a large army. But, was Raurlor wrong? I mean Waterdeep kept getting attacked and he was going to change that. The fact of the matter is Ahghairon staged a coup against the state. I know the books want us to believe that Raurlor was the bad guy, but even the Lords today are not exactly champions of personal liberties; from FR1:
"...the Watch can enter any building or area in the City without hindrance or warning..."
PS Thauramarth, thanks for correcting my spelling. |
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe
133 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2010 : 09:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
Well, that's not fair. If it's published it's canon, if it's not, then it's not canon.
It's pretty hard to cry, "Canon!" when the very point of the thread you created contradicts the canon.
The thread doesn't contradict canon, it's trying to say that the canon number is too low. |
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Waterdeep's army
Topic Locked
