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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 15:38:34
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Is there something like Heavy Metal (Or Metal generally.) in the Realms? How is it/could it be called?
What about other genres?
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Edited by - HelldoG on 09 Mar 2010 15:40:04
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 16:23:26
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gut feeling is a vauge no ... of cause there would be something which could be labeled as Epic Metal Ballads (in the veins of Rhapsody in Fire, or some of the more quiet parts of Within Temptation and Nightwishs Discography). But nothing in the lines of what you would usually call Heavy Metal, simply because they doesn't have the needed instrumental tools
But ... TheSage might have the best answer, not accounting Ed Greenwood, due to his interest in Music in FR |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 16:24:09
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Well, I've made exhaustive studies on the subject of Realms music, as it's one of my favourite aspects of the world. And I can say with some degree of certainty that I've yet to encounter any particular official references that focus on the concept of "heavy metal" music in the Realms. The technology, simply, does not exist for the most part. This is due, mostly, to the state of altered physics for the setting, which doesn't allow for the complicated machinery of electric guitars, or even electricity for that matter.
However, that shouldn't discount the possibilities for you campaign entirely. "Steampunk" music, popularised by such real-world bands as Abney Park, for example [and one of my current obsessions], demonstrate the utilisation of some old-world instruments and archaic music-making methods that don't require either electricity or complicated machinery to function or to produce music. And while the vast majority of their music isn't exactly "heavy metal" in the strictest of terms, it is highly abstract and "metal-ish" to some degree.
I've worked at the possibility of integrating some of their music into my own compositions for Realms music -- based mostly on the type of tech and musical-making methods available to the majority of races across Faerūn.
...
As for other genres, well, there's references to alternate styles of music. Like chamber and/or court music produced by royal orchestras and the like, for example, and found in locations such as Suzail. Classical and baroque would seem to be the order of the day, in places, though not wholly definitive. Earlier examples of Earth musical styles, such as Earth-like Renaissance music and medieval works [pay particular attention to the compositions of Millenarium {Ricercar} for what I believe might partly exemplify possible Realms-like musical trends] are other alternatives, and which have been suggested to me by Ed during my own discussions with him on the subject.
Operatic works, poetic ballads, and a capella stylings are also likely, and have been referenced, to varying degrees, in the Realmslore. I've extended this somewhat, and introduced the concept of symphonic poems, like those of composer Franz Liszt, into my workings on Realms-based music.
I've even encountered mentions re: "crooning songs" in the Realms -- particularly in Selgaunt.
...
I could keep going, if you like... ... Or, as Sian suggested above, you could ask Ed for his take. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Mar 2010 16:31:35 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 16:36:44
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| When I think of metal in the Realms I think Apocalyptica might be a source of inspiration. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 16:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageI could keep going, if you like... ... Or, as Sian suggested above, you could ask Ed for his take.
Keep going please  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 00:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by The SageI could keep going, if you like... ... Or, as Sian suggested above, you could ask Ed for his take.
Keep going please
Sure.
Is there anything in particular you'd like to read about, or should I just ramble on about Realms music in general?  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 13:47:48
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| Go general, share as much as you'd like. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 13:10:17
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quote:
Well, I've made exhaustive studies on the subject of Realms music, as it's one of my favourite aspects of the world. And I can say with some degree of certainty that I've yet to encounter any particular official references that focus on the concept of "heavy metal" music in the Realms. The technology, simply, does not exist for the most part. This is due, mostly, to the state of altered physics for the setting, which doesn't allow for the complicated machinery of electric guitars, or even electricity for that matter.
I anderstand but there is something that could successfully substitute electricity and technology - Magic  . There are spells that can imitate 'heavy metal' sounds or instruments. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 14:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
I anderstand but there is something that could successfully substitute electricity and technology - Magic . There are spells that can imitate 'heavy metal' sounds or instruments.
I can't quite agree with that. Mostly because you're assuming the majority of Realms minstrels/bards would know what Earth-based "heavy metal" music sounds like. And could then reproduce that some sound.
And I can't see how magic could conceivably duplicate most of the more intricately electronic sounds produced by the technology required to perform heavy metal music. Bardic magic could potentially produce some similar sounds, I suppose, in part. But ultimately, you're going to need electricity and musical equipment that can harness that power source to correctly render heavy metal music in the Realms. |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 16:50:44
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quote:
I can't quite agree with that. Mostly because you're assuming the majority of Realms minstrels/bards would know what Earth-based "heavy metal" music sounds like. And could then reproduce that some sound.
They don't have to "know" Heavy Metal. It could be that one of the Bards/spellcasters was just experimenting with sound spells and could take a fancy to sounds sounding like RW Heavy Metal. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 18:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
quote:
I can't quite agree with that. Mostly because you're assuming the majority of Realms minstrels/bards would know what Earth-based "heavy metal" music sounds like. And could then reproduce that some sound.
They don't have to "know" Heavy Metal. It could be that one of the Bards/spellcasters was just experimenting with sound spells and could take a fancy to sounds sounding like RW Heavy Metal.
An interesting alternative to this could be bards who delberately mesh or combine certain arcane/aural effects and musical instrumentation in a style so forciful that it essentially establishes the Realms equivalent of "heavy metal" music. The resulting magical/sound effects would probably be considered 'heavy' enough to almost overwhelm the listerner's senses -- an experience not unlike that of witnessing Earth-based heavy metal for the first time. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Mar 2010 18:04:46 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 08:45:08
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I figure that if mages---a class that bard's can relate to in both 2e and 3e---can create wands that hold bolts of electricity, then I personally don't think making an electric guitar would be that much of a problem for those who have the skill and talent in doing so.
And when you consider further that electricity can be generated from water, then I think its okay to have electrical appliances in the Realms. At least I roleplay that way in my Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 14:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I figure that if mages---a class that bard's can relate to in both 2e and 3e---can create wands that hold bolts of electricity, then I personally don't think making an electric guitar would be that much of a problem for those who have the skill and talent in doing so.
And when you consider further that electricity can be generated from water, then I think its okay to have electrical appliances in the Realms. At least I roleplay that way in my Realms.
I think a better point to consider is not how something could be done, but why it would be done. I personally don't think it would be hard to magically synthesize the sounds of an electric guitar, but with the current state of Realms music, I don't see anyone doing so. Even if someone did do it, I don't think anyone would really care for it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 15:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I figure that if mages---a class that bard's can relate to in both 2e and 3e---can create wands that hold bolts of electricity, then I personally don't think making an electric guitar would be that much of a problem for those who have the skill and talent in doing so.
And when you consider further that electricity can be generated from water, then I think its okay to have electrical appliances in the Realms. At least I roleplay that way in my Realms.
In terms of your own Realms that's fine.
But officially, even if you could generate electricity via water stimulation, you're still going to come up hard against the tech-barrier that prevents advanced Earth-styled technology from operating in the Realms. So even with an archaic electricity-generating method employed, there's still really no way around the tech issue.
Unless, of course, you step back from the "modern" equivalent of electric guitars and electronic synthesisers and establish Realms musical instruments that operate "automatically" via the kinds of electrical generation methods you're suggesting. Perhaps the "bang" and "clash" of hand drums and harsh "strumming" of a yarting could also be derived as the Realms-interpretation of "heavy metal music." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 16:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I figure that if mages---a class that bard's can relate to in both 2e and 3e---can create wands that hold bolts of electricity, then I personally don't think making an electric guitar would be that much of a problem for those who have the skill and talent in doing so.
And when you consider further that electricity can be generated from water, then I think its okay to have electrical appliances in the Realms. At least I roleplay that way in my Realms.
In terms of your own Realms that's fine.
But officially, even if you could generate electricity via water stimulation, you're still going to come up hard against the tech-barrier that prevents advanced Earth-styled technology from operating in the Realms. So even with an archaic electricity-generating method employed, there's still really no way around the tech issue.
Indeed. See the relevant quotes below.
quote:
The physics of the Realms are slightly out of synchronization with the rest of the planes, so that many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player characters. DMs should put some thought into what they will allow into their campaign worlds. DMs may choose to eliminate the use of gunpowder (or its magical equivalent, smoke powder) from the Realms, at their option.
-- Page 9 of Running the Realms, in the 2E FRCS
quote:
The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DMs judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world.
-- Page 9 of DMs Sourcebook of the Realms, in the 1E FRCS
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 16:06:21
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And, back to the power-generation issue --
As Ed has indicated in the past, back in '04, the people of the Realms are only now witnessing the evolution of power generation that comes with steam-power:-
quote:
... many Faerunians know about harnessing the hot gas from a fire collected through a hood-and-pipe apparatus) ...
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2010 : 18:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
When I think of metal in the Realms I think Apocalyptica might be a source of inspiration.
This idea, combined with some sort of magical amplification (discovered by a bard/mage wanting to play a large outdoor venue for reasons left up to the DM) that causes a level of distortion from the raw acoustic similar to that found in heavy metal, would work for me. But, as The Sage has mentioned, it would by necessity have to be magical... or steam-powered, which would be very clunky, but would certainly give you the equivalent of the "wall of amps" seen in most rock and metal concerts today. Hrm... I sense a Lantanese gnomish act coming on stage...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 00:34:57
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| They could just as well be human Lantanese. I think a lot of scribes tend to forget that the humans of Lantan can be just as technologically innovative as the 2e hold-over tinker gnome concept that was introduced into the Realms as a result of Gond's appearance on the island during the Time of Troubles. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 01:28:21
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Maybe I do not understand what "Heavy Metal (Or Metal generally.)" is, nor understand that electric guitars were required to play it. Sounds that FR does not produce technological wise certainly can be produced by magic. In some ways the question should be are there fans of such music. Hip-Hop, Rock and Roll, etc. are generation desire for a change that appealed to them and was widely distributed. Jitterbug also had some wide distribution, though more though sheet music, some movie and radio.
A better question might be if types of music format commonly and rarely enjoyed. There is nothing prevent youth from devising a new music form, there however appears to be a problem with wide dissemination of the new music form. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 02:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Sounds that FR does not produce technological wise certainly can be produced by magic.
To an extent, of course. But there are just some elements of music -- especially within the heavy metal genre -- that would require electrical accompaniment to produce the desired sound effect. Or what fans would recognise, for the most part, to be heavy metal music.
I'm not dismissing that those same sound effects can't be partially reproduced by magic. But I'd imagine the result would sound maybe a little, or even wholly, different from the Earth-based equivalent.
The important point to note here, is that the intention of music is to produce a desired sound via both the instrument and method used to create it. If either or both of those aspects of musical generation are altered, it's going to have an impact, however slight or significant, upon the resulting sound.
quote:
A better question might be if types of music format commonly and rarely enjoyed. There is nothing prevent youth from devising a new music form, there however appears to be a problem with wide dissemination of the new music form.
Certainly. And I've elaborated on this before in past discussions of Realms music.
Additionally, impromptu stage improvisation could lead to the development of alternate musical forms in the Realms. Improvisation is an important element in the bardic repertoire after all. And I've speculated in the past that "impromptu improvisations" of traditional Realms musical pieces and/or songs are often practised by bards and wandering minstrels across Faerūn.
In fact, like Beethoven or Handel... I do believe that many bards across the Realms likely improvise a great deal during their public performances. With no core communications network in place across the Realms, it can be extremely difficult for bards to keep up on changes to new and/or original music. Thus, they are ultimately forced to rely on their own musical talents and inspiration when performing -- leading to improvisations. These improvisations may even lead to new styles or pieces of music practised using instruments or musical generation methods not specifically considered to be appropriate for the style. Spontaneity would be crucial here I think... a style that grabs the bard's attention so much that he or she immediately transforms his/her practice to conform to the style playing in his/her mind.
As a musician myself, I can appreciate this fact... especially when playing in front of a live audience. Patrons aren't always interested in the same and usual musical styles... I've noticed this a lot. They usually come to hear something, maybe just a little different to what they were expecting... or a style they've not encountered before. It's these musical surprises that make public musical performances, as a bard would perform in some low-light tavern in any locale throughout the Realms, a real hoot for the bard/musician and the audience as a whole. They share something special... a feeling like, this music was meant only for them alone and for that moment. You'll never experience it the same way again. It's an important element in musical performances and in bardic roleplaying, as I've come to realise.
It would only take the bard a fraction of a second to follow up from a possible deviation in a regular piece of music. To continue with the Beethoven example, during public court performances, he would often have several pieces of parchment in front of him while at the piano with the piece he was to play in notation form. But he'd also have writing implements with him so that he could constantly change and alter scales, tones etc. during his playing because he discovered new ways in which to practice the music "while it is being played". Often, at the end of each performance... the original pieces of music he'd noted on parchment before his performance did not match what he ended up with scrawled on his other papers at the end of the day. So many new additions and/or ideas had been added that most musical scholars today have a difficult time discerning exactly what they mean.
I can see this happening in the Realms, during a bardic performance. Spontaneity and the mastery of music that the individual bard commands are factors which must be taken into account though, before something like this is even attempted. After all, not every crowd is happy to hear improvisations or variations... and I've had crowds literally "boo" me off stage because I chose to deviate, even a little, from standard notation.
And all of this, could, potentially, lead to the development of alternative music forms. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 14 Mar 2010 02:33:42 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 12:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
Is there something like Heavy Metal (Or Metal generally.) in the Realms? How is it/could it be called?
What about other genres?
Just curious as to why you would want Heavy Metal in the Realms at all; wouldn't that feel a bit out of place? I cant really see much "modern" music fitting the Realms at all, to me a modern jazz flautist or blues musician would feel a bit out of place even without electricity. But in your campaign by all means.
OK, maybe a Jazz banjo would fit, but only because of Jack Vance might enter through a portal |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 20:26:35
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quote:
Just curious as to why you would want Heavy Metal in the Realms at all; wouldn't that feel a bit out of place?
Well, first - I like 'Metal' and it would be great if the NPC's in my Realms could play it.
Second - Why not? I think we misanderstood ourself. I'm not very familiar with music. I don't know the characteristics of 'Metal' or any other music genre. I didn't know that 'Metal' is so connected to electrical instruments (Yea, I realize that they're playing electric guitars.). By 'Metal' I was refering to something sounding like 'Metal'. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EXACTLY 'METAL'. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2010 : 22:07:48
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| Here's a thought. what if it originated in the Underdark? I'm fairly familiar with Metal music (thank you, hubby, for giving me an appreciation for it!) and with music in general. My thought here is that since sounds travel and echo differently underground, and Underdark races are known to have instruments that take advantage of the change in sounds, why couldn't, say the duergar or drow have developed some equivilant? I can see Metal as a drow form of music, with it's frequently angry or harsh lyric and wailing instrumental sounds. Very Menzo. If it filtered up to the surface via visiting bards? They could use the different instruments (I believe it's been mentioned somewhere that drow have a type of lute with 60 strings- I'm sure one could get some very Metal-like dounds with that) and simply adapt the sounds using magic for play on the surface. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 07:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(I believe it's been mentioned somewhere that drow have a type of lute with 60 strings- I'm sure one could get some very Metal-like dounds with that)
Was this referenced in a drow-centric novel? Because I've catalogued most of the drow-music references from the various sourcebooks and articles, and I don't remember seeing anything like that in the lore.
Any chance, since my reading of the various drow-based novels has fallen pathetically behind, you could share any further info on the source for this instrument, Alystra, if you're able? |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 05:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
Is there something like Heavy Metal (Or Metal generally.) in the Realms? How is it/could it be called?
What about other genres?
Just curious as to why you would want Heavy Metal in the Realms at all; wouldn't that feel a bit out of place? I cant really see much "modern" music fitting the Realms at all, to me a modern jazz flautist or blues musician would feel a bit out of place even without electricity. But in your campaign by all means.
OK, maybe a Jazz banjo would fit, but only because of Jack Vance might enter through a portal
I'd want Metal music in the Realms for the simple fact that I love the Realms and I love Metal! Ha! It's 1st rate melee fight music. Though I reckon anyone's favourite genre of music would be that for the melee fight participant. To each his own.
As for it feeling out of place, I don't think so at all. Music, any genre that I can think of, is supposed to be a glorified expression of whatever the musician is feeling at the time of creation, for to share it w/others (Though I'd forgive anyone who'd counter what I just wrote by citing what mainstream radio stations play in 1st-world countries over the past few years).
I figure if you want something that we Earthlings can recognize to be a form of metal music in the Realms, w/o it being metal music as we know it, then perhaps we'd have to dig in the history books of what the equivalency of metal music was in the 1400's of Earth. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 05:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
I figure if you want something that we Earthlings can recognize to be a form of metal music in the Realms, w/o it being metal music as we know it, then perhaps we'd have to dig in the history books of what the equivalency of metal music was in the 1400's of Earth.
That's actually a lot more difficult than you might suspect.
For the most part, "heavy metal" is a modern-day concept -- a construct of the styles, influences, and further evolutions of, among other genres, "rock and roll." There simply wouldn't be a directly translatable equivalent in the past because the genre didn't exist and, thus, the peoples of the 1400's wouldn't understand the construct as we do today.
Rather, to find an equivalent, we must break the concept of "heavy metal" down to its most basic form -- plenty of "bang and crash," grinding rhythms, harsh string work, and heavy "metallic"-like aspects formulated during music making. This, then, could help to establish a piece of chamber music -- by using this foundation -- as a possible basis for simple 13-15th century "heavy metal" music.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 14:22:53
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The bottom line is; if you want the Realms to have any sort of music and you think it would fit then include it, but there is little in the published lore to really support there being heavy metal, at least until now. I have a hard time imagining Dalesmen at a Deep Purple concert or having King Diamond introduced as the next Harper, but that is a personal view.
I could here the dwarves and some religions producing the doom and gloom to fit certain forms ( I loose interest about '83-84, so I am no expert here), if the organ is in use some of the more pompous styles can be simulated if a rhythm is added. String instruments and large drums can be included. There are enough classical elements included in heavy and progressive rock to make it logical.
There are several northern European musics that involve the interplay that can be likened to twin guitars and soloing, even if it is acoustic. There are plenty of examples of hard riffing on acoustic guitars, so a form of non-electric hard rock can be created.There are forms of African music that has close ties to the blues and thereby to rock. Some of the Indian raga-music can also be a starting point. All of these can be changed to forms of music including many of the elements found in Heavy Metal parts of the Realms if you want to. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 20:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(I believe it's been mentioned somewhere that drow have a type of lute with 60 strings- I'm sure one could get some very Metal-like dounds with that)
Was this referenced in a drow-centric novel? Because I've catalogued most of the drow-music references from the various sourcebooks and articles, and I don't remember seeing anything like that in the lore.
Any chance, since my reading of the various drow-based novels has fallen pathetically behind, you could share any further info on the source for this instrument, Alystra, if you're able?
Ah, nertz. I was afraid someone would ask me that. It wasn't in any of the novels. I THINK(mind you, not sure if my memory is sound on this) it was in the equipment section of one of the 3.5 sourcebooks. Underdark, maybe? Either that or the FRCG or Races book. Those are the only ones I have. It was either that, or one of the older drow articles from Dragon. 267 or 298, possibly. I know it was in one of those scources, just not sure which one... However, it was a very BRIEF entry, just a simple description, so it might be easy to miss. But cool, if you can hunt it down! (My drow bard uses a scaled down version of it, with only twenty-five strings, but it gives him a great range of sounds to play with- and yes, he has even come up with a slightly Metal-ish sound of his own for one of the songs he wrote, natch!  )
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Realmsian Music - Heavy Metal anyone?
