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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 15:12:23
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If Mystra is dead and the Weave is undone, does it mean the ban is lifted and higher level spells can be used?(Ex. Karsus's Avatar)
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 15:36:06
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Interesting question! I'm tempted to answer "yes" but... other questions could arise...
(If you are using 4ed rules and you allow the "Demigod" Epic destiny, you can rule that one of the path prerequisites is to cast a ritual similar to "Karsus' Avatar"... just an idea!) |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 16:50:09
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| Damn, you just gave me so many ideas for new Realmslore articles! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 17:12:21
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Since you'll be writing them Matt they will be accepted  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 17:20:04
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Anonymous Reply. I can't say whether it was from WotC or a Freelance as to protect their identity.
quote:
Since the fundamental nature of magic has been irrevocably altered by the Spellplague, spells from previous editions no longer function regardless of Mystra's ban. All 4E spells and rituals needed to be crafted anew, even the simple ones like Magic Missile. Even with Mystra's passing, a wizard cannot simply stumble upon an ancient scroll with a 10+ level spell and expect to cast it.
Which means, more or less, that even if it doesn't function the same, the possibility to reconstruct it exists(?) |
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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 17:23:01
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| I guess that's good enough. Thanks |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 17:26:19
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Still, imagine what knowledge you could glean from such a scroll. It wouldn't matter that you can't cast it in its original form- you would still gain a massive boon to your studies.
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 18:17:08
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| My first question is, are there still spell levels in 4E? I mean, since WOTC decided to ditch the Vancian method of spell casting in favor of the Blizzard method, is this a relevant issue anymore? But, from reading 4E FR novels and the FR sourcebook, I got the impression that the more powerful the spell the more strain it puts on the body. So in a sense, the only limit on the power of your spell is how tough your mind and body is. I could be wrong but that was my take on the 4E spell system. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 18:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Still, imagine what knowledge you could glean from such a scroll. It wouldn't matter that you can't cast it in its original form- you would still gain a massive boon to your studies.
Oh however those scrolls in part had the Weave as part of them. No Weave, it could follow no power left in the scrolls.
All that might remain are words in an ancient language.
Even if the words could be translated, at beat the information gleamed might be this was a type of magic that used to exist.
It might be just some idea of something to strive for without any real instructions of what was dome before or how to do it. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 19:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
My first question is, are there still spell levels in 4E? I mean, since WOTC decided to ditch the Vancian method of spell casting in favor of the Blizzard method, is this a relevant issue anymore? But, from reading 4E FR novels and the FR sourcebook, I got the impression that the more powerful the spell the more strain it puts on the body. So in a sense, the only limit on the power of your spell is how tough your mind and body is. I could be wrong but that was my take on the 4E spell system.
I'm not sure where the strain on the body reference is coming from but I will go back and try to find it. As well- favor of Blizzard? Was this a stab at the system change or have you not actually played 4e? |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 21:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
My first question is, are there still spell levels in 4E? I mean, since WOTC decided to ditch the Vancian method of spell casting in favor of the Blizzard method, is this a relevant issue anymore? But, from reading 4E FR novels and the FR sourcebook, I got the impression that the more powerful the spell the more strain it puts on the body. So in a sense, the only limit on the power of your spell is how tough your mind and body is. I could be wrong but that was my take on the 4E spell system.
I'm not sure where the strain on the body reference is coming from but I will go back and try to find it. As well- favor of Blizzard? Was this a stab at the system change or have you not actually played 4e?
I am not sure as to where I heard this. I know that there was a discussion on the WoTC boards a while back about this so maybe I got it from there. But I swear one of the new 4E FR novels comments on the strain the new spell casting takes on a body. It was one of the Waterdeep novels, Mistshore maybe, but I might be thinking of the spellscared girl. But to elaborate more on what I believed to be the new standard. Wizards used to tap the Weave for safe access to magic, kind of like going to the power company to run your TV. But now that there is no Weave (power company) Wizards have to tap directly into wild magic for power. Kind of like trying to plug your TV directly into a hurricane, a little exaggerated I know, but it states the point.
As for my system comments, yes that was a stab and yes I have played 4E. I don't want to start a whole rant so I will simply say that I don't like the whole focus of putting certain classes into tidy little combat roles (strikers, defenders, controllers, leaders). This is so much like WoW that it diminishes D&D in my eyes. I feel that the old spell casting system was cast aside for a system which better fit the combat roles. Strictly my opinion. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 22:38:14
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| I wrote an editorial on Critical-Hits.com about the nature of roles and how WoW and EQ stole it from Original D&D ;) Anyways, with the effects on the body- I am interested and it wasn't tongue-in-cheek. It gives me something to dig for :) |
Edited by - Matt James on 09 Feb 2010 22:40:04 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 22:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I wrote an editorial on Critical-Hits.com about the nature of roles and how WoW and EQ stole it from Original D&D ;) Anyways, with the effects on the body- I am interested and it wasn't tongue-in-cheek. It gives me something to dig for :)
Oh I understand that D&D always had roles, but they were fairly ambiguous and it was totally up to the player to determine what role his player took on. But yes, anyways....heh. Yes please dig away because it is kind of a good thing to know. When I came across this reasoning it just felt right to me so it stuck in my brain. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 22:47:55
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| This is what happens with a blizzard dumps an ungodly amount of snow on your house. I have nothing but time right now, lol. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2010 : 22:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I wrote an editorial on Critical-Hits.com about the nature of roles and how WoW and EQ stole it from Original D&D ;) Anyways, with the effects on the body- I am interested and it wasn't tongue-in-cheek. It gives me something to dig for :)
Elf Quest stole it?
Oh you mean that upstart game. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2010 : 19:39:55
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quote:
Originally posted by darkelf15962
If Mystra is dead and the Weave is undone, does it mean the ban is lifted and higher level spells can be used?(Ex. Karsus's Avatar)
What an intriguing thought! So many ideas...  Epic!
Although there is probably an explanaition why the spell-cap also applies to 4e, it is a nice idea to nevertheless implement Level 10+ spells in a campaign, due to Mystra's death. At least something thrilling that comes out of the spellplague...  |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 00:42:30
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| Are you kidding? Lots of thrilling stuff came out of the spellplague, Im not saying I like the spellplague, but there're so many new opportunities! |
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IZDemon
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 14:21:03
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| I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply. |
http://islesofaedin.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 01:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Feb 2010 01:47:55 |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 08:42:30
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Just a few other ideas:
Since there are many followers of Mystra left, there is still lingering power of the former godess of magic left, wether she is floating on the astral plane, or exists as a ultrapowerful cloud of blue mist, in mortal progenies who seek power nodes (see below) is left to the DM
In addition, when Mystra and the Weave imploded, nodes of divine power were created (much like a pool of radiance). Highly concentrated divine energy. A bunch of people learned how to use this power for good or bad, and seek these places.
These nodes however vanish with each high magic spell cast. So it's a run against time.
When enough nodes are collected Mystril/Mystra rises again |
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IZDemon
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 18:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play.
If Mystra no longer exists, what is stopping a spellcaster from exploring and gaining the required knowlege of previously banned spells? I guess I see the ban as something that needed to be actively maintained and with Mystra gone, there is no one to police the activities of the mages and enforce the ban. |
http://islesofaedin.com/ |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2010 : 19:05:15
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| In any event, the idea does bring up some interesting opportunities :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 00:40:19
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quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IZDemon
I'd suspect a spellcaster could cast a higher level spell that had been previously banned. The problem is learning it. The old rules that Mystra enforced should no longer apply.
I don't see that... There really isn't any info in either direction, but I don't see any reason why everything going haywire would cause a reset that circumvented or removed the ban. Just because things changed doesn't mean that previously inaccessible stuff would suddenly be back in play.
If Mystra no longer exists, what is stopping a spellcaster from exploring and gaining the required knowlege of previously banned spells? I guess I see the ban as something that needed to be actively maintained and with Mystra gone, there is no one to police the activities of the mages and enforce the ban.
Quite simple -- if magic itself was changed, the pathways to those banned spells don't necessarily still exist. Just because there's no one making sure the barrier is still there doesn't mean the barrier itself is gone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Feb 2010 00:44:32 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 01:06:52
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| Or, just because Mystra closed the road, it doesn't mean that the Spellplague has washed out the only bridge to that road. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 01:41:40
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Hmm, 3rd Edition banned higher then level 9 spells across the realms, however did allow for Epic spells (more powerful then level 8 spells, just not level 10th or higher.
As I recall some of those sample Epic spells clearly matched or exceeded level 10.
It was a different way of using magic and did not break the ban. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 04:14:02
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I think this is pretty much why epic spells had no level attached to them and required ungodly Spellcrafting rolls and what-not to use. Spellcasters just can't prepare and use lvl 10+ spells on a whim.
As far as spell scrolls not working in 1479 DR, I think this provides a great opportunity for the DM and PC to get together and homebrew a 4e version of the spell. That way, the spell could still be used (albiet with a lot of study, research, and practice) and it adds some wonderful roleplaying and DM/PC interaction. It's what I've started to do in my FR4e campaign. I'm also contributing to converting alot of FR-specific spells from old into 4e here---> http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20031321/Forgotten_Realms_Spells
And as far as ditching the Vancian system for the blizzard system, while not accurate, I find it so much more refreshing. Typically when I play low- to mid-level wizards I feel so restrained when spellcasting due to the fact that once i'm out, i'm practially useless. It's a reason I allow 0-level spells to be cast At-will (and allow damage dealing 0-lvl spells do to max dmg) when I play 3/3.5E. So while the older, more archaic system was discarded like an old rag, a newer, revised system was put in place that make arcane spellcaster actually feel like spellcasters 24/7. It's a strange concept but better than twiddling your thumbs when you run out of magic missile and have to resort to that useless crossbow that you know you'll hit with once in every 5 shots. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 06:14:20
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| This is what scrolls and wands are for. Playing D&D means using the Vancian magic system, as it is the great and rich heritage of this game. By abandoning this system and giving us another game instead of D&D WotC shows its disrespect for the game entrusted to the company. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 08:37:49
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I respectfully disagree. Just because a certain system has existed for a long time doesn't mean it shouldn't evolve. There were a lot of things bothering me in 3.0 and 3.5. And I'm glad 4.0 got rid of most of them. Including making every class equally fun to play and creating a more 'intensive' play style for ALL classes.
I know the old system is 'classic' but classic doesn't mean the same as 'good'.
Back on topic: I think its an awesome idea Darkelf. Another thing I like about 4.0 is the ability to create and use ideas like this. |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
Edited by - Zapato on 17 Feb 2010 08:39:40 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 13:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's a reason I allow 0-level spells to be cast At-will
Funny, Pathfinder did the same thing.
Just sayin' |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 17 Feb 2010 13:38:41 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 14:37:15
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| All right everyone, this is devolving into yet ANOTHER session of the endless Edition Wars (seriously, combatants in the Blood War would get exasperated with this). Back to neutral corners and stop comparing the size of your wands. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 14:58:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Playing D&D means using the Vancian magic system...
I do not define playing D&D by use of the Vancian magic system.
More on topic, in 4e I see the use of such ancient magic as being an incredibly high Arcana skill check combined with other requirements, such as the development of specific rituals. These rituals would be very taxing as well. |
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Mystra's Ban After the Spellplague.
