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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 23:40:59
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With the press kit for Baldur’s Gate 3 implicating the Dead Three as a major part of the game’s plot, I went digging and found that Descent Into Avernus describes all of them as alive (though not quite at their former power) and operating manifested on Faerun. I know concrete lore details are scarce in 5e, but this feels like a bigger deal than I’d expect. Is everyone back?
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 00:15:38
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Nearly. Some deities received a more in-depth explanation (like Bhaal, taking the example of the Dead Three), while others came back offscreen (like Myrkul). Even the likes of Zandilar (which means that, as Ed explained, Sharess is back to being Bast) or Zinzerena are back. This was due in some cases to some contingencies prepared by said deities, in some others to Ao's decision to resotre the tablets of fate and set in stone portfolios and power of the various gods to avoid endless divine drama, in some other cases yet to a combination of both. However, in most cases, it was Ao's choice.
Ao also dramatically limited divine meddling in mortal affairs, though deities seem to still be able to directly interact with mortals post-Sundering (as shown by the likes of Mystra, Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. Or all the Mulhorandi gods, really). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Mar 2020 00:17:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 01:04:34
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All the gods are back... But they've refused to nail down what "all" means. Is Ibrandul back? Is Murdane back? Is Kippyuoto back? Tyche certainly isn't back...
And Myrkul was already still around, enjoying not being a god -- so his re-ascension also leaves a lot of questions.
In short, it's another clumsy move by WotC, left vague to try to keep everyone happy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 01:29:23
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| "All" means whoever is in their lists, and possibly more. But I agree with you in that it was very handwavy in most cases. Though I'm glad of many of those returns. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 06:20:53
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According to a previous thread, it sounded like the list of dwarven deities (in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, I think?) included both Marthammor Duin AND Muamman Duathal...even though they're the same.
As Wooly said, clumsy.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 14:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
According to a previous thread, it sounded like the list of dwarven deities (in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, I think?) included both Marthammor Duin AND Muamman Duathal...even though they're the same.
As Wooly said, clumsy.
Jeff
That's true. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 22:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All the gods are back... But they've refused to nail down what "all" means. Is Ibrandul back? Is Murdane back? Is Kippyuoto back? Tyche certainly isn't back...
And Myrkul was already still around, enjoying not being a god -- so his re-ascension also leaves a lot of questions.
In short, it's another clumsy move by WotC, left vague to try to keep everyone happy.
I agree completely. Deities live and die and come back again from death so often that I play only epic games in our gaming group now. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 02:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All the gods are back... But they've refused to nail down what "all" means. Is Ibrandul back? Is Murdane back? Is Kippyuoto back? Tyche certainly isn't back...
And Myrkul was already still around, enjoying not being a god -- so his re-ascension also leaves a lot of questions.
In short, it's another clumsy move by WotC, left vague to try to keep everyone happy.
I agree completely. Deities live and die and come back again from death so often that I play only epic games in our gaming group now.
... I really don't see a connection there. Deities are beyond mortals, so I don't get why their deaths mean you have to play a wildly overpowered game. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12072 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 14:51:00
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My homebrew take on this is that many of these returned deities are like the Mulan gods were. They are manifestations bound to Toril in some way (that doesn't mean they can't leave Toril, just as a mortal can leave Toril, but rather now their "home plane" is Toril) and are in some ways similar to primordials and archfey. Some deities may be lying and saying that this was their own choice (because gods lie). Essentially, less power in single god's hands. In this concept, many deities could fall into this fold (Mask, Leira, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Lathander, Talos, returning Untheric/Mulhorandi entities, Nobanion, Lurue, Deneir, Cyric, etc...). Some of these deities may be acting as warlock patrons as well as clerical resources, etc... This may be why in the novels for instance, Mystra shows up at the end of one of them to visit her chosen (I say may as there can be untold numbers of reasons), possibly to explain to them that she needs to pull her power back from them to a degree (making the chosen less powerful).
I fully recognize that the above statements will probably not fit in with the worldview of many fellow scribes. However, I think Ao is a prick who wants less power in the hands of the gods and more gods vying so that he can maintain power. I also view Ao as powerful, but not as powerful as he portrays himself (because he lies, as all gods do... even overpowers). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Mar 2020 14:56:25 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 21:03:18
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Great Reader Irennan,
I wonder how many times this makes any of the deceased gods coming back, having come back from the dead total?
Anyone have a dead god count? It's like these deceased deities have springs mounted on their backs so when they hit the floor, the bounce right back up!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
"All" means whoever is in their lists, and possibly more. But I agree with you in that it was very handwavy in most cases. Though I'm glad of many of those returns.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12072 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 22:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Irennan,
I wonder how many times this makes any of the deceased gods coming back, having come back from the dead total?
Anyone have a dead god count? It's like these deceased deities have springs mounted on their backs so when they hit the floor, the bounce right back up!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
"All" means whoever is in their lists, and possibly more. But I agree with you in that it was very handwavy in most cases. Though I'm glad of many of those returns.
As do mortals... people tend to forget that mortals go away and come back as well. I would think its very hard to completely kill a god unless someone steals their essence, and even that I wouldn't be surprised if they overwrite the persona of the person that steals their power. In fact, many deities may be schizophrenic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 22:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Irennan,
I wonder how many times this makes any of the deceased gods coming back, having come back from the dead total?
Aside from Mystra's rebirths, and the possible return of Bane, most dead deities have stayed that way -- until now. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 23:58:19
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Great Reader sleyvas,
Yeah, mortals definitely bounce back like slinky's.
It honestly is just a little weird to me though how the dead God's seem to come back: Cyric, Leira, Torm, Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Tyr, Deneir (ouch), Helm, Lathander, Mask, Savras, Azuth, Mystra/Mystral/whatever. I'm sure there are more, but geez, what a list!
I really wonder if in that moment that the deity dies, does his domain go with it and all of his followers souls perish, no matter how brief it was? Could you imagine? Talking about backing out on your deal!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Irennan,
I wonder how many times this makes any of the deceased gods coming back, having come back from the dead total?
Anyone have a dead god count? It's like these deceased deities have springs mounted on their backs so when they hit the floor, the bounce right back up!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
"All" means whoever is in their lists, and possibly more. But I agree with you in that it was very handwavy in most cases. Though I'm glad of many of those returns.
As do mortals... people tend to forget that mortals go away and come back as well. I would think its very hard to completely kill a god unless someone steals their essence, and even that I wouldn't be surprised if they overwrite the persona of the person that steals their power. In fact, many deities may be schizophrenic.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 17:06:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche certainly isn't back...
Tyche may not be back in the Realms, but she has been active in other worlds (Nentir Vale, Exandria) under the name of Avandra (as per the 5e DMG).
On the other hand, her activities in these worlds predate the Second Sundering by centuries, it seems... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Mar 2020 17:07:15 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 17:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tyche certainly isn't back...
Tyche may not be back in the Realms, but she has been active in other worlds (Nentir Vale, Exandria) under the name of Avandra (as per the 5e DMG).
On the other hand, her activities in these worlds predate the Second Sundering by centuries, it seems...
Nentir Vale interloper deities? Now that’s a fun concept. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 19:07:55
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| Nentir Vale and Exandria (Critical Role), as both settings use both the same gods and mythology. And with Guide to Wildermount being the next sourcebook, the Dawn War lives on in canonical 5e. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 21:26:20
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Master Zeromaru X,
I must admit, while I know nothing of those two settings at all (skipped 4e/5e as you know), I kind of like the idea of having multiple planets with the same deities doing their thing, but are those campaign settings any good?
Heck, I use PF 1.0, I just need to connect that too and use the same deities, I think.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Nentir Vale and Exandria (Critical Role), as both settings use both the same gods and mythology. And with Guide to Wildermount being the next sourcebook, the Dawn War lives on in canonical 5e.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 21:32:25
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Even dead gods come back. multiple times. I'm waiting for Telemont Tanthul to come back in 6ED. it'll happen. Trust me. The Four most powerful beings on Faerun that can die are;
Elminster
The Shrinshee
Telemont Tanthul
Larloch |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 22:29:50
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| I love Nentir Vale and find Exandria underwhelming. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 00:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Zeromaru X,
I must admit, while I know nothing of those two settings at all (skipped 4e/5e as you know), I kind of like the idea of having multiple planets with the same deities doing their thing, but are those campaign settings any good?
Heck, I use PF 1.0, I just need to connect that too and use the same deities, I think.
I also think that there is logic that the same deities exist in a setting that is supposed to be a "connected multiverse". It makes sense.
Anyways, I don't know much about Exandria (Tal'dorei, Wildermount, and whatever other name the setting has), save that it's based in the "points of light" philosophy of the Nentir Vale, and that it uses the same pantheon and mythology.
Now, I do love the Nentir Vale setting, to the point that one can argue everything I say about can be biased (just search Zeromaru X and Nentir Vale in Google, lol). So, I prefer to direct you to this opinion of a person who hates 4e yet loves the Nentir Vale at the same time.
http://mythlands-erce.blogspot.com/2017/06/4th-editions-implied-setting-is-old.html?m=1 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:36:48
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Master Zeromaru X,
Thanks for sharing that. Great article to read. I do like the idea of Nentir Vale myself. It is still pretty dang new to me though, so a lot of this I am playing catch up on to some extent.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Zeromaru X,
I must admit, while I know nothing of those two settings at all (skipped 4e/5e as you know), I kind of like the idea of having multiple planets with the same deities doing their thing, but are those campaign settings any good?
Heck, I use PF 1.0, I just need to connect that too and use the same deities, I think.
I also think that there is logic that the same deities exist in a setting that is supposed to be a "connected multiverse". It makes sense.
Anyways, I don't know much about Exandria (Tal'dorei, Wildermount, and whatever other name the setting has), save that it's based in the "points of light" philosophy of the Nentir Vale, and that it uses the same pantheon and mythology.
Now, I do love the Nentir Vale setting, to the point that one can argue everything I say about can be biased (just search Zeromaru X and Nentir Vale in Google, lol). So, I prefer to direct you to this opinion of a person who hates 4e yet loves the Nentir Vale at the same time.
http://mythlands-erce.blogspot.com/2017/06/4th-editions-implied-setting-is-old.html?m=1
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1044 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 16:21:18
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Maybe I am a bit blasé about the death and rebirth of deities. 3.xed even had a feat called "Servant of the Fallen" where a cleric could gain divine powers from an ostensibly dead god.
So go ahead, pick a god you want. In the meantime, I will happily avoid the much-discussed and much-rediscussed controversy on "Wall of the Faithless".
On a related note, I am staunchly against giving gods stats. Wanna fight a god in its own domain? No problem, you lose, you die, your soul is irrevocably annihilated beyond even the recall of another greater deity. Ao can bring you back. Good luck getting his attention! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 17:58:14
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Learned Scribe Storyteller Hero,
At this point I think it could most easily be left at,
"I wouldn't put it past WotC to publish a ____________________________." They've built themselves a 100 year playground. Heck, bringing back people that are enjoyed for stories is classic, but let's hope if they do, they do it in a way that is not as rough as others have been.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Even dead gods come back. multiple times. I'm waiting for Telemont Tanthul to come back in 6ED. it'll happen. Trust me. The Four most powerful beings on Faerun that can die are;
Elminster
The Shrinshee
Telemont Tanthul
Larloch
As with gods, dead doesn't necessarily mean out of the game for powerful mortals. Telemont Tanthul could already be back on his feet in Shar's divine realm. I wouldn't put it past WotC to publish a 5e adventure book in the 1490s featuring Telemont Tanthul as an antagonist.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 18:01:58
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Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Yes, 100%.
When feats like that "Servant of the Fallen" is utilized, it sort of is the notion that the death of a god means nothing. It really destroys the notion of there being any consequences.
As to gods in their backyard: yeah, I do that already myself. Sure, an aspect of a deity, you can fight that (tough fight, but you can). However, if you want to fight anything more than that: destroyed, utterly.
I just have never understood the fascination with having to go that far with gods in a story.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Maybe I am a bit blasé about the death and rebirth of deities. 3.xed even had a feat called "Servant of the Fallen" where a cleric could gain divine powers from an ostensibly dead god.
So go ahead, pick a god you want. In the meantime, I will happily avoid the much-discussed and much-rediscussed controversy on "Wall of the Faithless".
On a related note, I am staunchly against giving gods stats. Wanna fight a god in its own domain? No problem, you lose, you die, your soul is irrevocably annihilated beyond even the recall of another greater deity. Ao can bring you back. Good luck getting his attention!
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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The Second Sundering - are all the gods back?
