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 3rd Edn Teleport without error
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2010 :  14:37:05  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
If one can teleport without error, what happens should you choose to teleport without error during a grapple. That is where someone is holding on to you. Presumably, you teleport but they don't.

More opinion on this would be welcome.

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Zm
Acolyte

United Kingdom
5 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2010 :  15:50:01  Show Profile  Visit Zm's Homepage Send Zm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think caster is able to choose whether they want to teleport with the one grapping him/her or without. Would be silly otherwise.

From the player's handbook: "You can bring along objects and willing creatures totaling up to 50 pounds per caster level."
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2010 :  19:38:42  Show Profile  Visit Fizilbert's Homepage Send Fizilbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See I would argue that the very act of grappling would be sufficient to interrupt the spell casting, and thus the player would not be able to cast the spell.



Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2010 :  19:52:34  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fizilbert

See I would argue that the very act of grappling would be sufficient to interrupt the spell casting, and thus the player would not be able to cast the spell.


A valid point, but I think that is why Concentration is rolled for. According to SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) the spell only has a verbal component. A strong willed caster is probably able to complete the casting.

In this particular case, I'm thinking about a character who can teleport without error at will.

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Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2010 :  19:53:17  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zm

I think caster is able to choose whether they want to teleport with the one grapping him/her or without. Would be silly otherwise.

From the player's handbook: "You can bring along objects and willing creatures totaling up to 50 pounds per caster level."


That goes along with my own thoughts too.

Thank you.

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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2010 :  03:19:13  Show Profile  Visit Fizilbert's Homepage Send Fizilbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well in the case of a caster able to cast that spell at will, then I would also agree that the cast would be able to choose who or what they wanted to teleport with them.

Of course as a DM you could rule whatever you want. Another route you could take with this is that in this situation of the caster being grappled, this would create increased difficulty for the caster, and thus the spell would lose it's "without error" part, and would act as a normal teleport, with that spell's chance of failure.



Fiz
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World of Elethril
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4687 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2010 :  03:45:46  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm if being grappled, it is possible the attacker is willing to be transported.
I expect most would not want to go to unknown location, however that option appears valid if attacker does want to finish the job and does not weight too much.
IMO being held and holding something would not be considered by spell. The magic would take person and all weight attached from center out. Another person clearly the furthest thing away so the first thing not transported if weight is too much.

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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe

199 Posts

Posted - 02 Jan 2010 :  05:17:31  Show Profile  Visit bladeinAmn's Homepage Send bladeinAmn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

If one can teleport without error, what happens should you choose to teleport without error during a grapple. That is where someone is holding on to you. Presumably, you teleport but they don't.

More opinion on this would be welcome.



If its any help, in the video game Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, (2e) the PC gets an innate ability to teleport to his/her pocketplane. The spell operates as a Teleport Without Error spell, but cannot be used during a fight.

Similarly, in the video game Neverwinter Nights 1-Official Campaign (3.5e), the PC cannot use his/her teleportation stone during a fight either.

Seeing grappling is a fighting move, I think the best move is to not allow it to work during a melee.

I think allowing it work in a fight would be a cheesy tactic anyways.
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  01:35:39  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're pretty much in agreement down at the Paizo boards that you can teleport while being grappled assuming you make your concentration check.

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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The Simbul
Learned Scribe

173 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  06:52:44  Show Profile  Visit The Simbul's Homepage Send The Simbul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The caster of a spell chooses the targets of the spell, and in the case of teleport without error all of the potential targets must be willing. Therefore;

1) If you do not choose to target the grappler then he does not go with you.
2) If the grappler does not want to be teleported then he cannot be targeted by the spell at all.

Grappling can disrupt spellcasting or the use of a spell-like ability if you do not succeed a Concentration check. In the case of a spell, the grappler can also attempt to prevent you from speaking if they succeed. In the case of a spell-like ability, Silent Spell, or a similar effect the lack of speech would be irrelevant. Lastly, in the rare event that your teleport without error is a supernatural or extraordinary ability then neither speech nor concentration would be required for you to successfully use it.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  10:04:22  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul

The caster of a spell chooses the targets of the spell, and in the case of teleport without error all of the potential targets must be willing. Therefore;

1) If you do not choose to target the grappler then he does not go with you.
2) If the grappler does not want to be teleported then he cannot be targeted by the spell at all.

Grappling can disrupt spellcasting or the use of a spell-like ability if you do not succeed a Concentration check. In the case of a spell, the grappler can also attempt to prevent you from speaking if they succeed. In the case of a spell-like ability, Silent Spell, or a similar effect the lack of speech would be irrelevant. Lastly, in the rare event that your teleport without error is a supernatural or extraordinary ability then neither speech nor concentration would be required for you to successfully use it.


Thanks!

This is how I understand the spell. In the terms of a normal caster, if she or he can keep their Concentration then they can successfully cast the spell. They determine whether they want to take the grappler or not. As the grappler is sentient they can can resist such a teleport if they make a successful Will save.

In the specific case I'm thinking of, the character can cast Teleport without error at will. They are a demigod. Therefore, he can break any grapple just by teleporting away. Obviously, if he was being grappled by a higher ranked deity that might be different, but that isn't the case I'm thinking of here.

Thank you to all who've contributed to this scroll. You've helped me a lot.

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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  12:33:50  Show Profile  Visit Fizilbert's Homepage Send Fizilbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine in a situation like this that maybe Blink would be a better choice, but that's just me. I dont even know if that spell still exists in the current edition.



Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  15:52:32  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fizilbert

I would imagine in a situation like this that maybe Blink would be a better choice, but that's just me. I dont even know if that spell still exists in the current edition.


I don't recall Blink off-hand. What edition is it from?

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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  19:22:15  Show Profile  Visit Fizilbert's Homepage Send Fizilbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I know for a fact it's in 2E. I can't comment whether it's in 3E or later. In a nutshell it allows the caster to randomly teleport very short distances every round for the lenght of the spell. It should be a 3rd or 4th level spell.

Once I get home I can see if I can give you a better description of the spell.



Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril

Edited by - Fizilbert on 05 Jan 2010 19:28:17
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  20:23:38  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the 3.0 version:

Blink

(and the Pathfinder version: Blink, although I don't think they changed it any)

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe

USA
123 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2010 :  12:36:19  Show Profile  Visit Fizilbert's Homepage Send Fizilbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, it looks like they changed it quite a lot, though perhaps the end result remains the same.

Here is the first two paragraphs of the description for blink from 2E:
"By means of this spell, the wizard causes his material form to "blink" directly from one point to another at a random time and in a random direction. This means that melee attacks against the wizard automatically miss if initiative indicates they fall after he has blinked.
Each round the spell is in effect, the wizard rolls 2d8 to determine the timing of the blink the result of the dice roll is used as the wizard's initiative for that round. The wizard disappears and instantaneously reappears 10' distant from his previous position. (Direction is determined by roll of 1d8.) The caster cannot blink into a solid object; if such is indicated, reroll the direction. Movable objects of size and mass comparable to the caster are shoved aside when the caster blinks in. If blinking is impossible except into a fixed, solid object, the caster is then trapped on the Ethereal plane."



Fiz
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World of Elethril
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3243 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2010 :  13:52:15  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fizilbert

Actually, it looks like they changed it quite a lot, though perhaps the end result remains the same.

Here is the first two paragraphs of the description for blink from 2E:
"By means of this spell, the wizard causes his material form to "blink" directly from one point to another at a random time and in a random direction. This means that melee attacks against the wizard automatically miss if initiative indicates they fall after he has blinked.
Each round the spell is in effect, the wizard rolls 2d8 to determine the timing of the blink the result of the dice roll is used as the wizard's initiative for that round. The wizard disappears and instantaneously reappears 10' distant from his previous position. (Direction is determined by roll of 1d8.) The caster cannot blink into a solid object; if such is indicated, reroll the direction. Movable objects of size and mass comparable to the caster are shoved aside when the caster blinks in. If blinking is impossible except into a fixed, solid object, the caster is then trapped on the Ethereal plane."



Sorry, I meant that Pathfinder didn't change it from the 3.0 version...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2010 :  19:56:01  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fizilbert

Well I know for a fact it's in 2E. I can't comment whether it's in 3E or later. In a nutshell it allows the caster to randomly teleport very short distances every round for the lenght of the spell. It should be a 3rd or 4th level spell.

Once I get home I can see if I can give you a better description of the spell.



Thanks for this to later posts. I also checked 2nd Edn once I got back home and found Blink there.

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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2010 :  12:52:47  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Im pretty sure TWE is an instant canst spell, which means that no concentration chec is needed, and you only need to say the key word or key sentance. Onless ofc you have silent spell. Then you just teleport with out error as if you were standing alone in the dark!

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Artemel
Learned Scribe

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2010 :  20:10:42  Show Profile  Visit Artemel's Homepage Send Artemel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Teleport without error does need a concentration check to be cast while grappled. It meets all other requirements for a spell cast while grappling since it is Vocal only components (spell cannot have somatic components and must have material components already in hand).

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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2010 :  22:29:20  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Artemel

Teleport without error does need a concentration check to be cast while grappled. It meets all other requirements for a spell cast while grappling since it is Vocal only components.


And if that check is successful, the grappler is left behind.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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