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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 10:26:46
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Hi, I've been looking all over the Internet because I have an ethical dilemma in one of my current running D&D games. I play on Faerűn, and one of my players is a Lawful Good cleric of Kelemvor. Kelemvor hates undead, because it's against the natural cycle of death; it's artificial and his clerics are supposed to seek and destroy every undead creature.
So, the problem is about Baelnorn and good liches. The Seldarine are supposed to give support to this elven liches because it is seen as a sacrifice for the good of the community an its lore; the majority of the Seldarine are of good alingment and I suppose they're quite concerned about the bad uses of necromancy, so they won't support a megalomaniac elf whose purpose is the search for sole knowledge above any moral (just like my beloved Larloch). What would be the position of Kelemvor about this? Should a good cleric of his church destroy (try to destroy :P) a Baelnorn just because it's an unnatural creation, or should he leave him alone as he hasn't chosen his undead form for evil reasons?
And, of course, if Kelemvor just give full support to the destruction of any liches, even if they're of good alignment, what would be the response of the Seldarine? After all, many baelnorns became so just because the Seldarine or the elven community gave them the power to do so. If a powerful and ancient baelnorn is killed, maybe the Seldarine could have an argument with Kelemvor, as he is giving his clerics the right to destroy them.
Well, anyway thanks for any answer. I apologize for any problem reading this post because I'm not quite good speaking english.
By the way, I don't know how I have missed this page for so long. :D
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Edited by - Arzakon on 21 Dec 2009 10:31:58
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 11:14:34
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Just because they've got 'good' in their alignment doesn't mean thay they agree on anything or even don't hate each other. 
You could easily decide that Kelemvor is fundamentaly opposed to undeath in any form, however altruistic or well meaning. He could teach his followers that undeath is an intolerable abomanation and should be faught wherever it is found with out compromising his or their good alignment. Basically, he's more interested in the preservation of the natural cycle of life and death than any well meaning corruption of it.
Also, welcome to the keep! I don't know how it took me so long to find it either.  |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 12:49:10
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as far as i remember it goes like this
Kelemvor is per default for killing all undeads ... out of pity when we're talking unintelligent undeads, but when we're talking intelligent undeads, its because they've made themself undeads because of that they want to live beyond their time ... Baelnorns is special case for Kelemvor since they're becomming undead for the good of the community and not doing it because they want to live on ... He might not like them but he won't hunt them either, having an ambivalent view on them. |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 14:00:32
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Archliches and baelnorns aren't just 'good liches,' though, they're something magically similar but different.
At its most extreme, I would see baelnorns as "good elven undead" only with regard to the purpose of their creation.
As noted in Cormanthyr -- "Baelnorn, the willing undead elves, are the elven equivalent of liches, though they are hardly as disturbingly “wrong” as the corrupt undead and they do not project the fearsome aura of those wicked creatures."
Thus, they're kind of a special case when it comes to considering Kelemvor's attitude against liches. In fact, perhaps the individual Kelemvorite might need to seek the advice of one higher in the clergy in order to ascertain how best to proceed when encountering such elven undead, rather than attack it outright. |
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Arzakon
Seeker
Spain
58 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 15:13:13
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Ok, thanks to all. But I'm still doubtful about Kelemvor's dogma. In "Faiths and Pantheons", they say that from time to time, during the Shieldmeet, some priests of the god cast True Resurrection, bringing back to life heroes from the past in times of need. So what's the problem? The god says there's a natural cycle, and everyone must accept it. Any unnatural form of life prolongation (even if you're not a lich, maybe a necromancer with other means) is seen as an aberration, but if the clergy resurrect a hero, that's right.
Maybe, as Sage said, there are "non disturbing" forms of necromancy, as in the same book, it is said that some clerics make multiclass as necromancers; after all, healing is a necromancy. I just find it difficult to see what kind of necromancy is good or evil. After all, even Mystra supports Larloch (and I'm quite sure she does not support lichdom :P). Anyway, thanks all, I think I'll try to discuss it with my players :) |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 16:11:11
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This sounds like a great adventure hook to me.
I doubt any clergy of any deity are always in agreement. There will always be disputes and disagreements, though not necessarily violent.
Take Lathander's clergy for instance. There is a faction amongst them that believe Lathander is the reborn form of Amanautor. They were considered heretics at worst, and deluded, but well meaning, fools at best (and according to 4e, were ultimately correct). There was no (to my knowledge) violence between the groups and they would still work together when needed.
I imagine there could be a similar type of disagreement among Kelemvor's clergy. I would bet the more lawful members would not tolerate any undead to exist, whether or not they are benevolent. Those neutral members may be a little more willing to accept these types of undead on a case-by-case basis.
It would make an interesting situation for PCs to find themselves in. The idealogical conflict between these factions among Kelemvor's faithful would definitely be an excellent challenge for PCs. Then throw in a possible conflict with a church of one of the Seldarine...always a wonderful challenge, one I find very compelling, as it's typically a conflict the PCs are less likely to want to resolve via combat.
I would personally run with this type of idea. It makes DMing that much more fun for me. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 17:38:06
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I'm running a game that includes both a Paladin and a Cleric of Kel. I have stated that church dogma on this subject is as follows: Undeath is an Abomination unto Kelemvor. This is to include Archliches, as the hatred of undeath isn't due to alignment, nor to an opposition to Negative energy, but rather because of an aversion to those who would unnaturally prolong life. Insofar as Baelnorns, however, I have ruled (through the higher-ranking clerics of Kelemvor, dictating to the PCs) that Kelemvor has a pact with Shehanine Moonbow in her aspect as the elven goddess of the dead that precludes the targeting of the elven liches. The logic here being that baelnorns (specifically, not all elven undead) get a pass because 1) Kelemvor is trying to play nice with the racial death-gods and 2)Kelemvor (and his high priests) realize that if they tried to eliminate the baelnorn population, they would take ghastly casualties: Not only would the baelnorn work together to defend themselves (something evil undead rarely do) but a great many elves (and elven organizations; including the elf churches and nations) would pitch in to defend them as well. The third reason given in my campaign is that Kel is (in my Realms)only the HUMAN god of death. He doesn't care about nonhuman undead nearly as much, since they aren't cheating him of sweet, sweet souls. But again, that's just in my game, and doesn't fly with canon.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 23:03:54
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Ed actually spoke on this topic, in the past:
quote:
bradhunter, Knight of the Gate, and other interested scribes: Ed has confirmed that his view still stands: Kelemvor (and by his instruction, his clergy) ignore baelnorn. That is, they do not treat them as undead to be destroyed, and deal with them only as necessary; polite avoidance and minimal contact is best (and being as Ed is the creator of baelnorn, he's by definition the go-to expert on them).
According to Ed, archliches are regarded as undead to be aided in achieving their task/mission and then cajoled to "pass on" into true death rather than hanging around; archliches who disagree, or who have established "unfulfillable" or really long-term tasks or missions for themselves, are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis (i.e. Kelemvor, working through his servants as proxies, wants to truly understand the motivation and natures of each individual archlich before deciding on a policy towards each particular archlich).
I grinned at that and sent Ed a "weasel, weasel, weasel" tease, and he replied:
Weasel, of course. :} Yet on the other hand: why not? Herein lies the sort of roleplaying that should be at the heart and core of every long-running D&D campaign. So long as the DM arranges it so that players, through their characters, have a chance to govern/substantially influence outcomes, rather than being reduced to spectators of the DM's acting out events.
So saith Ed. Here endeth the latest word from the Greenwood.
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2009 : 07:24:15
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| that was the one i faintly remembered as well |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 05:03:14
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| I was involved in that dicussion and somehow forgot it! |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 06:03:23
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| I really dislike the concept of "good" liches. Undead are by their creation evil. They are animated by negative energy. Liches are, by their very nature, bent to achieve their goals which eventually means by any means, as the process eventually makes them go insaine. There is a pretty good write up on them in one of the off brand books, I think it is the AEG Undead, I'm thinking of. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 06:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by woodwwad
I really dislike the concept of "good" liches. Undead are by their creation evil. They are animated by negative energy. Liches are, by their very nature, bent to achieve their goals which eventually means by any means, as the process eventually makes them go insaine. There is a pretty good write up on them in one of the off brand books, I think it is the AEG Undead, I'm thinking of.
According to a 2e Monstrous Compendium, Baelnorn (good-aligned elven lich) aren't animated by negative energy like standard liches. Rather, they're animated by a secret 7th level spell associated w/Spirit Trap (that indeed may be the name of the spell; the book wasn't clear on that, I reckon on purpose). |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 12:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
This sounds like a great adventure hook to me.
I doubt any clergy of any deity are always in agreement. There will always be disputes and disagreements, though not necessarily violent.
Take Lathander's clergy for instance. There is a faction amongst them that believe Lathander is the reborn form of Amanautor. They were considered heretics at worst, and deluded, but well meaning, fools at best (and according to 4e, were ultimately correct). There was no (to my knowledge) violence between the groups and they would still work together when needed.
I imagine there could be a similar type of disagreement among Kelemvor's clergy. I would bet the more lawful members would not tolerate any undead to exist, whether or not they are benevolent. Those neutral members may be a little more willing to accept these types of undead on a case-by-case basis.
It would make an interesting situation for PCs to find themselves in. The idealogical conflict between these factions among Kelemvor's faithful would definitely be an excellent challenge for PCs. Then throw in a possible conflict with a church of one of the Seldarine...always a wonderful challenge, one I find very compelling, as it's typically a conflict the PCs are less likely to want to resolve via combat.
I would personally run with this type of idea. It makes DMing that much more fun for me.
That's a bit similar to how I handle Kelemvor in my game.
The following hasn't much to do with canon lore, but maybe you can mine a few ideas for your own game.
I DM a mini-campaign with two players: one plays a Doomguide (speciality priest of Kelemvor), about level 10 and one a young paladin of Kel (about level 4-5). The two are hunting vampires in the general area between Mistledale, Tilverton* and the Desertsmouth Mountains.
* DR 1370/71 - so the city is (still?) alive and kicking
Early on they have encountered a good vampiress who lives not on blood but has to feed on love*. After a brief romance with the priest and her saving his live by killing a 'regular' vampire who surprised the cleric, they found a helpful ally in her.
* more exactly: She draws her energy from the feelings of "fresh love", i.e. the feelings from her enarmored victims during the first few weeks after falling in love with her (not longer than a month, in general much less). After that time she needs a new victim... Thus leaves a wake of broken hearts behind herself - whether she wants it or not. While she enjoys being in love, she actually hates breaking the hearts of her victims - but the alternative would be drinking blood or dying from starvation.
The priest was very concerned about such a deal and asked his god for guidance. Kelemvor answered by stating that there are indeed a very few vampires that don't have to be laid to their final rest, some of them could even be asked to ally themselves with the curch in order to help in the battle against undead and soul-stealing beings from the lower planes*.
*im our game, Kelemvor's church not only fight against (most) undead but also against devils and demons (plus 'loths) who are in the 'soul-business', i.e. trying to get hold on the souls of mortals by whatever means. This allows to add powerful creatures from the lower planes to the list of enemies. Since the special powers of kelemvorite clergy against undead often don't work against demons & devils, these critters present a welcome challenge for a priest who is specialised in fighting (through specialised abilities, spells, magic equipment, etc.) undead and can mop up a run-of-the-mill vampire in a few rounds.
This 'some undead are more equal than others'-aspect of Kel's dogma isn't supported by all of his clerics: Some of them are quite concerned that the young god risks being subverted to the old ways of Myrkul (who was the god of undeath and the undead). ...and then there is the other end of the spectrum: former Myrkulites who have converted to the new faith. Many of them now hunt the beings they have created the service of their former patron.
One of them (an ally of the two PCs mentioned above) even today uses animated skeletons as work force in tiny gem mine in the Desertsmouth Mountains. The spells animating them were given from Kelemvor, he claims (correctly) and thus using them for acquiring funds for the faith. He sells the gems to finance his fight against the undead-using Zhentarim in the area. What will happen if others of the faith discover...? Dunno yet, but it will sure be a heated discussion between the faithful! |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2009 : 15:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
Early on they have encountered a good vampiress who lives not on blood but has to feed on love*. After a brief romance with the priest and her saving his live by killing a 'regular' vampire who surprised the cleric, they found a helpful ally in her.
* more exactly: She draws her energy from the feelings of "fresh love", i.e. the feelings from her enarmored victims during the first few weeks after falling in love with her (not longer than a month, in general much less). After that time she needs a new victim... Thus leaves a wake of broken hearts behind herself - whether she wants it or not. While she enjoys being in love, she actually hates breaking the hearts of her victims - but the alternative would be drinking blood or dying from starvation.
Tauster, that's very creative, kudos to you. Was she a priestess of Sune in her lifetime? |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 13:24:07
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenrangerTauster, that's very creative, kudos to you. Was she a priestess of Sune in her lifetime?
Hey, thanks for the praise!
As far as I developed her background* she wasn't an overly religious - certainly not enough to be a cleric.
* I didn't tell the characters (or their players, for that matter) her whole story. Which is rarely done anyway...
Inspiration for her came from two sources: Van Rychtens Guide to Vampires says that Vampires might also sustain themselves from things other than blood (for example tears). That was where I got the idea of 'alternative vampires'. Second, ever since I read my first Anne Rice novel, I have been hooked on how she envisions vampires. Combine these two sources and you get something like a romantic vamp(ire). Might sound a bit cheesy, but Jessica Bleth has become one of the more memorable NPCs in this particular campaign, even if she is a 'second row'-NPC who is in the game not as often as others.
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2009 : 17:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
Hey, thanks for the praise!
As far as I developed her background* she wasn't an overly religious - certainly not enough to be a cleric.
* I didn't tell the characters (or their players, for that matter) her whole story. Which is rarely done anyway...
Lots of detail for a second tier NPC. I love that kind of stuff as a player, although my group that I DM for doesn't care much for those kind of details so I don't usually work them out  |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Kelemvor and Good Liches
