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Light
Learned Scribe
Australia
233 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 14:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.
Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.
I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
May I be so bold as to inquire into what these words are? |
"A true warrior needs no sword" - Thors (Vinland Saga) |
Edited by - Light on 01 Feb 2012 14:12:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 18:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Light
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.
Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.
I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
May I be so bold as to inquire into what these words are?
I long ago suggested splitting the 4E Realms into its own independent setting, and having another Forgotten Realms that did not involve the Spellplague. My suggestion was to call the 4E Realms "the Shattered Realms" -- a name that I still think is a good, marketable name that will get attention, and that was intended without any trace of derogatory intent. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 20:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
I disagree. I'm going to say whatever I like as long I'm not breaching this sites CoC. Who are you to force your opinion on me? To take away my right to free expression and freedom of speech? 
The nerve of some people...  |
[url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series uk version[/url] [url=http://expensiveautomobile.com/2009-bmw-3-series-touring-uk-version/]2009 bmw 3 series touring uk version[/url] |
Edited by - Imp on 01 Feb 2012 20:01:06 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 22:59:08
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| No-one has the right to free speech on a private forum, which this is. We are all here as guests and should do well to remember this. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:40:44
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Too late Wooly....I'm already here! 
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2012 : 00:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
I disagree. I'm going to say whatever I like as long I'm not breaching this sites CoC. Who are you to force your opinion on me? To take away my right to free expression and freedom of speech?
I certainly will not endorse any initiative here at Candlekeep that results in anything like that.
As I've said many times, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of censoring speech. Which is why I rely heavily on the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct for support in this.
So, at it's heart, I agree with Imp. Scribes are freely able to positively engage in discussion about the Realms so long as we all, each and every one of us, recognise that opinions will always come into conflict.
But we need to remember that respecting the opinions of other is also crucial to the healthy productivity of this site.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 04:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Scribes are freely able to positively engage in discussion about the Realms so long as we all, each and every one of us, recognise that opinions will always come into conflict.
But we need to remember that respecting the opinions of other is also crucial to the healthy productivity of this site.
I agree... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with... and to have productive debate stifled by partisan ranting or (worse) personal attacks does not help matters. I'm referring primarily to a recent scroll that attempted to constructively change some attitudes regarding the fallout from the edition wars and what should be done with D&DNext. I'm still somewhat in shock from all of that, and I've been wanting to resume the debate, but I haven't bothered out of my sense that anything productive would be overrun by trolls. So, for the moment, I'll continue drifting from scroll to scroll, contributing and commenting as I'm able, but I would very much like to see those of us with the maturity to civilly discuss the aforementioned issues to continue to do so, and for those without it to stay away.
quote:
If you can't say anything nice, including constructive criticism, don't say anything at all.
Wise words... and we would all do well to heed them.
Rant over. 
Edit: Mods, please let me know if I'm off the mark in any way with this post; I still get rather... 'irritated' isn't quite strong enough a word, but 'enraged' is too strong... when I think about the previously-described incident. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 08 Feb 2012 04:36:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 04:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with...
I'll admit, I'm guilty of this myself. I think we all tend to forget, sometimes, that we can respectfully still disagree.
It's when the disagreement is either disrespectful or rude, that the problems start. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 22:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
... and what some scribes have forgotten at various times (including myself, in the early days of the 4E Realms) is that having one's opinions respected does not entail having those opinions agreed with...
I'll admit, I'm guilty of this myself. I think we all tend to forget, sometimes, that we can respectfully still disagree.
It's when the disagreement is either disrespectful or rude, that the problems start.
Or when someone mistakes disagreement for disrespect; that's happened a few times in my time here as well. Anyway, hopefully things have calmed down around here. I'd like to suggest an effort on our part of fence-mending with certain people; some WotC employees or contributors have made their presence here all but extinct over the course of the Edition Wars, and I'd like to see us as a community take the initiative and extend an olive branch to those who left our halls because of animosity over the Spellplague. I'm thinking primarily of Bruce Cordell here; regardless of how we might feel about his love for the Far Realm, I believe that he was unfairly blamed for many of the decisions regarding the 4E Realms that were handed down from above and not his call at all, and we could all benefit from having contact with another inside figure at WotC. All that being said, some recent events tell me that he might be better off in some ways turning down this offering, so this is also a renewal of my call for unity at the Keep. If anyone can think of a good reason not to have a member of the development team of the new edition of the rules return to our halls and hear what we have to respectfully suggest, I'd like to hear it. Anyway, enough from me. Wooly? Sage? Alaundo? Others? Your thoughts? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:18:57
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| *Applause* |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:51:11
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I think that’s a great idea Jakk.
In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think it’s a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.
I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming he’s even interested).
Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.
Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sage’s call at the start of this scroll to respect other’s opinions without being insulting) and I’d hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2012 : 23:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think that’s a great idea Jakk.
In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think it’s a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.
I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming he’s even interested).
Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.
Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sage’s call at the start of this scroll to respect other’s opinions without being insulting) and I’d hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.
I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 00:09:07
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Man I can't catch a break.quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand.
Apologies. My post originally included a comment near the end that The Sage appears to be taking a step back from moderating (for a short time).
Before my final edit and post I cut that portion of the comment out, then moved the remainder (the part you quoted) up to the middle of my post.
So no, I wasn't implying only The Sage is taking an active role in moderation. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 00:27:11
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The optimistic side of me thinks this is a great idea and feels it would go a long way in WotC mending the divide and reassuring fans the setting is in good hands.
However, the realistic side of me asks if this is even a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen most of the 4E FR architects ever having a strong presence here or even at the WotC FR forums, with the exception of Ed and Rich Baker. Most of the 4E FR team is no longer with the company, including Rich.
Also, possibly due to Rich's unfortunate treatment during the 4E transition, but most likely his work shifting him elsewhere (A&A miniatures, 4E core) during his later tenure with WotC, his interaction with the FR community (Candlekeep and WotC FR) lessened to virtually nothing.
I suppose the only one with any significant FR work under his belt is Bruce Cordell, but has it even been confirmed he is on the 5E FR development team?
The 4E version of FR is still a hot button topic with many fans. I hate to say it, but I'm not comfortable inviting a designer or author here only to see him (or her) experience an all too predictable result. As much as I disagree with some of those designers, it's not fair to them.
Maybe a better route could be to have a moderator (such as one of Candlekeep's moderators) act as intermediary with any designer willing to participate. This might help keep the communication focused on the vital matters.
I'm also curious as to what rumors turned to fact through repetition during 4E? As far as I recall, 4E FR sprang fully formed before WotC unveiled it to the market.
I don't expect WotC to do anything different come 5E FR. They took into account the existing situation and formulate their intended changes for the Realms. We will see the result of their work when they feel it ready to preview in the drive towards the release date.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 09 Feb 2012 00:33:48 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 01:01:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should like to think that "both moderators" have taken an active role in keeping things from getting out of hand.
Indeed. And I'd like to applaud Wooly's efforts in keeping most of the 4e-related discussions, and by extension, the edition debates, in order -- especially when I've not been here [since that's largely the time these discussions appear to take place]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 04:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think that’s a great idea Jakk.
In the interests of keeping a second divide from forming by rumors about 5E getting started and then slowly transforming into fact through continuous repetition (as happened over the life of 4E), I think it’s a good idea that we identify and invite anyone on the 5E Realms design team to come here and talk with the community on the Chamber of Sages shelf.
I think an invitation could be extended to Bruce Cordell (assuming he’s even interested).
Regardless, both moderators would need to take an active role in order to keep things from getting out of hand.
Lately a few scribes have gone out of their way to be highly insulting towards the 4E Realms design team (despite The Sage’s call at the start of this scroll to respect other’s opinions without being insulting) and I’d hate to see any discussion ended before it has a chance to even get going.
Only lately? I'd say it was at its worst a year and a half ago, before The Sage opened this scroll. But I completely agree with your dismal predictions, after what happened with your attempt to encourage unity. I'm still dismayed by the way that ended. And yes, Sage, Bruce already has a scroll here, but check the date of his last post. He hasn't been around in quite some time, and I don't blame him for it, considering the things that were said about the 4E Realms (something I played no small part in, to my great shame). Honestly, I still don't care for it as a setting in its entirety, but it has its good points that I've felt free to cherry-pick from; Returned Abeir would be great if it had its own book; ditto for the Abolethic Sovereignty; and the same for Akanul and Tymanther (although I share other scribes' concerns that it was a bit of wheel-reinventing).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The optimistic side of me thinks this is a great idea and feels it would go a long way in WotC mending the divide and reassuring fans the setting is in good hands.
However, the realistic side of me asks if this is even a possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen most of the 4E FR architects ever having a strong presence here or even at the WotC FR forums, with the exception of Ed and Rich Baker. Most of the 4E FR team is no longer with the company, including Rich.
Also, possibly due to Rich's unfortunate treatment during the 4E transition, but most likely his work shifting him elsewhere (A&A miniatures, 4E core) during his later tenure with WotC, his interaction with the FR community (Candlekeep and WotC FR) lessened to virtually nothing.
I suppose the only one with any significant FR work under his belt is Bruce Cordell, but has it even been confirmed he is on the 5E FR development team?
The 4E version of FR is still a hot button topic with many fans. I hate to say it, but I'm not comfortable inviting a designer or author here only to see him (or her) experience an all too predictable result. As much as I disagree with some of those designers, it's not fair to them.
Maybe a better route could be to have a moderator (such as one of Candlekeep's moderators) act as intermediary with any designer willing to participate. This might help keep the communication focused on the vital matters.
I also think that Dark Wizard raises some legitimate concerns, and he may have the best way to go about the process until we know more about what the 5E Realms will look like. And yes, Dark Wizard, from what I've read, Bruce is in fact on the 5E team. I don't recall his specific role, however. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Feb 2012 04:33:45 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 04:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
And yes, Sage, Bruce already has a scroll here, but check the date of his last post. He hasn't been around in quite some time, and I don't blame him for it, considering the things that were said about the 4E Realms (something I played no small part in, to my great shame).
Actually, way back when I last sent him a message, Bruce informed me that lack of time was preventing his participation here at Candlekeep.
And given his great hand in developing 4e material, I can't imagine that lacking has changed all that much. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 05:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, way back when I last sent him a message, Bruce informed me that lack of time was preventing his participation here at Candlekeep.
And given his great hand in developing 4e material, I can't imagine that lacking has changed all that much.
I hope he wasn't just being nice... but as you say, with the great number of projects he's involved in, it's very likely that time really is a significant factor for him. It's good to know that much, at least.
Perhaps we should invite Monte Cook into the Keep...  From Jason Buhlman's foreword to the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, he would be a fascinating person to talk game design with... and with an open playtest, one would think that he would be interested in this opportunity... unless he's already up to his eyeballs in processing input from the playtesters. Just a thought... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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DarkExcalibur42
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2017 : 15:28:11
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I just have the urge to drag this poor, ancient thread back from the dead...
4E... made some bold changes. It definitely gave us a lot of new twists to a beloved world.
While I'm not a big fan of most of those changes, the authors and designers of the Forgotten Realms made something brilliant and extraordinary and unforgettable. Whatever shortcomings 4E may have had, they won't endure so long as those creators continue spinning stories and legends for us. The world will continue to evolve and grow, and eventually even the elements of 4E that frustrated us the most will be changed into another layer of the Forgotten Realms' very storied lore and history.
I haven't had the chance to read much 5th Edition yet, but I'm looking forward to it. |
"I excused myself by saying that I had set down nothing which was not strictly true, and he replied to the effect that therein lay my fault."
--Sir Henry Rider Haggard |
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Solus Galerion
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2017 : 03:55:49
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| Working in a creative field myself (game design), I thoroughly appreciate this. Thank you so much for going to such lengths to address this. I may be new, but I know good posts when I see them! |
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Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 19:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkExcalibur42
I just have the urge to drag this poor, ancient thread back from the dead...
4E... made some bold changes. It definitely gave us a lot of new twists to a beloved world.
While I'm not a big fan of most of those changes, the authors and designers of the Forgotten Realms made something brilliant and extraordinary and unforgettable. Whatever shortcomings 4E may have had, they won't endure so long as those creators continue spinning stories and legends for us. The world will continue to evolve and grow, and eventually even the elements of 4E that frustrated us the most will be changed into another layer of the Forgotten Realms' very storied lore and history.
I haven't had the chance to read much 5th Edition yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
Although 4th Edition FR in particular was far from ideal, it did have some interesting ideas to it. The designers worked hard to make it , and we shouldn't disparage their work on it so easily.
I'm having mixed opinions on 5th Edition. It's a bit of a retcon, returning thing back to the pre-Sundering state of affairs for the most part while making things less black-and-white in terms of morality. Now your character can be a Zhent without being evil, for example. However, the FRCG replacement, the SCAG, is rather sparse on details.
The rules are also rather decent, like a rather simplified version of the 3.5e rules with some nice adjustments and innovations. Modifiers on attack rolls have been simplified to Advantage and Disadvanatge, for example, in recognition of how that's basically what ended up happening anyways once they'd been tallied up, but somewhat less muddled and with more an effect to it. |
Edited by - Spectralballoons on 29 Nov 2017 19:35:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 19:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
quote:
Originally posted by DarkExcalibur42
I just have the urge to drag this poor, ancient thread back from the dead...
4E... made some bold changes. It definitely gave us a lot of new twists to a beloved world.
While I'm not a big fan of most of those changes, the authors and designers of the Forgotten Realms made something brilliant and extraordinary and unforgettable. Whatever shortcomings 4E may have had, they won't endure so long as those creators continue spinning stories and legends for us. The world will continue to evolve and grow, and eventually even the elements of 4E that frustrated us the most will be changed into another layer of the Forgotten Realms' very storied lore and history.
I haven't had the chance to read much 5th Edition yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
Although 4th Edition FR in particular was far from ideal, it did have some interesting ideas to it. The designers worked hard to make it , and we shouldn't disparage their work on it so easily.
I'm having mixed opinions on 5th Edition. It's a bit of a retcon, returning thing back to the pre-Sundering state of affairs for the most part while making things less black-and-white in terms of morality. Now your character can be a Zhent without being evil, for example. However, the FRCG replacement, the SCAG, is rather sparse on details.
The rules are also rather decent, like a rather simplified version of the 3.5e rules with some nice adjustments and innovations. Modifiers on attack rolls have been simplified to Advantage and Disadvanatge, for example, in recognition of how that's basically what ended up happening anyways once they'd been tallied up, but somewhat less muddled and with more an effect to it.
Why would being a Zhent mean you have to be evil. The Zhentarim at their heart are merchants. I know a lot of people try to link them to being like mobsters, but that's only a veneer. At their lowest levels (the merchants, the caravan drivers, etc...) many of them are just people trying to transport goods from one location to another and sell them. They're trying to figure out what people would like to buy.
In a similar vein, just because someone was from Thay or a red wizard shouldn't mean they were evil pre-spellplague (and even post-spellplague, but its even more likely that they're evil now... the ones that remained in country). Now, I would agree heartily if someone said 75% of them were self-concerned bigots.... but there's probably 25% who were concerned with their families over country and personal power. They were probably simply concerned with growing crops, making money, etc.... and possibly a lot of these individuals who were fed up with the politics at home were periodically working from the enclaves. In fact, I'd bet that interacting with other cultures via the enclaves changed those Mulans who left their country.
In the end, I agree... I was upset with many 4e changes. They essentially changed near everything about much of the realms, and it wasn't well done. Conceptually though, as I look at some of the things that the people came along afterward and tried to do, they were trying to fix things. For instance, in what I saw of the Chessenta redo in dungeon, they essentially "reskinned" a lot of the old cities with new names, slightly offset locations, and smaller populations... but their core concept was the old 3e idea. Now, we head into 5e, and we have an opportunity to reshape the region in a way that will make old grognards and new people both happy as I see it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 21:34:16
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One thing I found interesting in the Edition Wars, in regards to just the ruleset itself, and not to the changes in the setting (which have been discussed in plenty!), was the way reactions tended to be extreme in one direction or another.
The reactions I saw to the 4E ruleset were either "I want to have this edition's baby!" or "Kill it! Kill it with fire!"
My own reaction was negative, though I should like to think it wasn't quite to that extreme.
The reactions I've seen to the 5E ruleset have been much more measured, and they've been predominantly positive. I personally have not looked at the rules in any great detail, but what I've seen has not been objectionable to me.
And unlike the 3.x/4E transition, I've not seen anyone else suddenly outsell WotC with a repackaged version of the 4E rules. For me, the fact that -- at least briefly -- Pathfinder was outselling D&D is a very powerful statement on the success of the 4E ruleset. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 22:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
The designers worked hard to make it , and we shouldn't disparage their work on it so easily.
While I agree that disrespect leads to nothing, that's precisely what the 4e team did. They disrespected the work of the designers who made the Realms into the Realms, not because they changed it, but because of how they did that. They actively tried to sever the "new Realms" from all the previous lore and history, they blew up place or killed off stuff because they felt that those things were redundant or unlikable, when--in fact--they removed a lot of iconic elements of the setting, and they did that based on what seemed to be a superficial understanding of the matter (from what I read in their Q&A thread). They also warped characters and concepts for the novels leading up to 4e.
I mean, AFAIK they even had that childish "kill the holy cows and take their stuff" motto. The reason why 4e failed, and why now so much of those changes have been reversed, is not just the changes themselves. It was also WotC's disrespect (and lack of faith in their own IP, if I may add. Because when you feel that you have to take away so much of what your fans like about a setting to make it likable, then you don't have faith in your setting). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2017 : 22:49:22
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If you have a link to that Q&A, I will appreciate it.
And I have an opinion similar to that of Irennan (and I do like 4e and 4e FR). Despite the good ideas they may have had in 4e, and they had many. It was the way they implemented those changes, so... heavy handed, that people got alienated. Heck, to this day, there is people who dislike dragonborn just because they debuted in 4e, not because they dislike the dragonborn concept.
It was sad, though. Because that led us to lose a lot of the stuff 4e had brought, and not all that stuff was bad (there is stuff that actually was really cool, like, for instance, Laerakond), and I'm sure in the end classic Realms and "nu-Realms" could have coexisted, instead of just losing it almost all and be rebooted.
I know is posible because I have done it in my home Realms, and that means a profesional author could have devised a better way to do that than mine. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Nov 2017 22:53:50 |
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