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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 22:49:29
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Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.
In regards to the 4th Edition rules, I know a good many people that have rejected the rules system regardless of it being in the Realms or not.
Finally, Realmslore has been and should always be edition/rules-free. You do not need to have rules mechanic to enjoy the lore of the world. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 00:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Finally, Realmslore has been and should always be edition/rules-free. You do not need to have rules mechanic to enjoy the lore of the world.
Exactly.
Ultimately, DMs are free to make use of whatever Realmslore they wish for their campaigns, regardless of the edition -- in most cases. And discussion of that Realmslore, here at Candlekeep, should be considered in much the same way.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 01:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
What a dificult and neverending topic, isnīt it?
I have been thinking about this a lot lately and what would be the best way to handle this forum in this context.
It appears logical to me that there are fewer people here in this Realms-forum who like the 4e realms than who are against them. Everyone says "4e", but it is actually "4e realms".
I have read some of the D&D 4e material and in terms of game mechanics I feel it is sound and very well done. Probably there will be rather few people who really reject the 4e rules system.
However the other part is the "4e realms" and considering that this is a forum about the realms, apparently things may look different. As much as I appreciate 4e Core, I cannot see any good and sane reason for what has been done to the realms.
On the other hand, I do not like the 4e bashing here neither and I think Matt James probably suggests the best strategie: nurture the realms back to health (which I personally interpret as: make them what they used to be in 3.5, but with 4 e rules). But how?
<chop>
I agree entirely, Skychrome. My two current gaming projects are (a) development of the Realms outside of Faerun/Kara-Tur/Zakhara, starting with Anchorome, and (b) Version 3.0* of JD&D, which will incorporate the opposed-roll mechanic of 4E into a fusion of the 3.5 and Pathfinder ruleset. Yes, I have non-gaming projects as well, primarily RW-genealogy.
As to an answer to your question, I'm thinking like Ashe and Sage: keep it mechanics- and ruleset-independent. There are plenty of us out there who play in the Realms with 1E, 2E, 3.x, 4E, and completely different game systems (I believe GURPS has been mentioned in the past), not to mention the people like me who like to (re)build rulesets for fun.
* - for the curious, Version 1.0 was basically 2E with a critical hit system, paladins and rangers of other alignments, and elimination of level limits for nonhumans, and Version 2.0 was basically 3.x with some tweaks to advancement, feat acquisition, and ability score boosts. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 03 Nov 2009 01:13:15 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 10:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I've even heard from reliable sources of some employees working on the material that feel like they lost a bit of their soul when they work on this material.
It must be tough to do something you don't like to something you've enjoyed for so long. But, I'm sure, like lots of us, the game designers and authors fundamentally have to think about their livelihoods. Many of us also have to put up with things we don't like in our careers.
The flip side to this is that when producing something creative, it is better if it is produced with real passion and enthusiasm. It seems strange to me that someone in a position of authority would seek to push against those feelings.
However, judging by the comments of those people who say they like 4E, I get the impression that many of the designers were enthusiastic. It is a different system compared to 3rd End, and there's got to be a lot of fun involved in creating something new.
Speaking of something new - The post-Spellplague Realms..
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
The thing is, a lot of us don't want to just take it for what it is and really want things to go back the way they were, no matter how that's achieved. ...I am sure we all can relate to the feeling of despair and complete loss of hope.
Things won't go back to what they were. Even without the edition change there would always have been changes. The difference, of course, is that there's been a huge change and that's captured our attention. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 10:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.
Thanks for the link. That's the first straight answer on 4E sales that I've seen.
Trying to find sales figures on line is impossible, but I think with Joseph Goodman's comment we'll get as close to a clear answer as we're going to get. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 13:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Alas, there are no statistics for how 4E is selling, much less comparisons to other editions (although Joseph Goodman has some theories), so everything is mere speculation.
Very interesting link!
Which basically confirms what I already suspected. 4e in general seems to go well and there is no way that complaints on the new realms as one part of 4e will change anything at WoTC, which makes it even more necesary to focus here on the aspects of 4e that are worth it to be discussed at the excellent level, which one can usually expect at this forum.
Makes me sad though too. There are some few parts of the new realms that I consider interesting, but in general it hurts me very much how things look now... |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 13:47:30
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Damn, I shoulda put some sarcasm tags up on that link... 
Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 14:42:07
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See, this is part of what I was talking about.
quote:
Yes. In the 35 year history of D&D, we stand at a high point. D&D is selling more copies, reaching more customers, supporting more game stores, than it has during most of its history.
He's not paying attention to the facts that gaming is closer to mainstream than it has been at any previous point in its history, that it's more popular than it has been at any point in its history, and that it's more available and more advertised than it has been at any point in its history.
I'm not saying 4E is or is not doing well -- I'm saying you can't make any comparison between this edition and prior editions, because the gaming industry itself has grown and expanded during the interval between editions.
A more accurate measure would be to compare the overall number of D&D players to the number of D&D players playing a specific edition. However, that data can only be gathered by getting the info from the players themselves, which tends to skew results. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 15:18:31
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Bad things happen in real life that put a bad cramp on the world; i.e. terrorism, wars, economic issues, global warming, etc... You name it, crap comes up all the time that makes me go 'grrrrrr'. Why can't things like the Time of Troubles and Spellplague be the same for the Realms? It sucks, badly, but life goes on and new and interesting stories end up being told. The world keeps on rolling along. This is a great way to view the Toril without the scattered real-world edition issues. Sure, things were lovely before, but isn't that also what makes the Realms great? Heroes dealing with crap-sandwiches and pushing forth?
Just perspective on the story as it was affected by the edition change. If the Spellplague occured without an edition change, people probably would have viewed it differently. Mystra biting the dust would have made for a shocking new story to envelop ourselves in, right? Sure, people would have been upset, but no one ever said she is gone forever; even Ed! :) |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 15:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Bad things happen in real life that put a bad cramp on the world; i.e. terrorism, wars, economic issues, global warming, etc... You name it, crap comes up all the time that makes me go 'grrrrrr'. Why can't things like the Time of Troubles and Spellplague be the same for the Realms? It sucks, badly, but life goes on and new and interesting stories end up being told. The world keeps on rolling along. This is a great way to view the Toril without the scattered real-world edition issues. Sure, things were lovely before, but isn't that also what makes the Realms great? Heroes dealing with crap-sandwiches and pushing forth?
Just perspective on the story as it was affected by the edition change. If the Spellplague occured without an edition change, people probably would have viewed it differently. Mystra biting the dust would have made for a shocking new story to envelop ourselves in, right? Sure, people would have been upset, but no one ever said she is gone forever; even Ed! :)
I'm really not trying to re-open this discussion, since most of us know where we stand, and few (if any) of us are budging.
Matt, while you make a somewhat valid point, the problem (as I and many others here see it) isn't the Spellplague, per se; It's the time jump. Had the Spellplague hit the 4E Realms in 1375 and the setting been picked up in (say) 1380 DR, I would have moaned, but likely continued playing in the 'current' Realms. The issue is the (to me) totally egregious 100year time jump, which was done expressly to invalidate old lore. Since CK is a place for just that sort of lore, it's less than shocking that the scribes here are unthrilled at the prospect of hundreds of questions which will forever go unanswered, dozens of beloved characters dead without an eulogy, not to mention the paring-down of the various pantheons to a very (IMO) un-Realmsian few gods, and (of course) the invalidation of thousands of dollars worth of gaming products and hundreds of hours of Realms scholarship which are now reduced to the level of 'quaint history having nothing to do with the current setting'. We stuck thru the ToT, we stuck thru all the subsequent RSEs- we could have stuck thru the S.P.. That we did not is a testament (again, IMO) to the totality of the destruction.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 16:15:07
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| Responnding to Matt via PM; we really don't need another public debate on what was done to the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 16:18:05
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| No problem :) Just trying to stay chipper :D |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 16:35:47
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| Agreed, and I (again) am NOT trying to reopen the discussion: I just wanted to address Matt's point vis-a-vis the attitudes of those unhappy with the S.P.. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 17:45:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either.
Fair enough, but from my point of view he's given the clearest answer we're likely to get. I've done a number of web searches for sales of 4E and the data can't be found (by me).
I'm glad it seems to be doing well. Monte Cook made a valid point a while ago that WotC carries everyone else. Certainly we're living in interesting times, if nothing else. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 21:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Mr. Goodman's post that I linked to has been discussed in many arenas as well. Since he doesn't provide any of the 'data' that he's gathered, there's no way to prove/disprove what he says either.
Fair enough, but from my point of view he's given the clearest answer we're likely to get. I've done a number of web searches for sales of 4E and the data can't be found (by me).
I'm glad it seems to be doing well. Monte Cook made a valid point a while ago that WotC carries everyone else. Certainly we're living in interesting times, if nothing else.
As much as I respect and like Mr. Cook, I don't think that's true anymore. Ten, even five, years ago, if WotC and Hasbro shuttered the shop and left town, I think the gaming industry would have dried up and (probably) gone under. However, in the last five years, we're seeing the explosion of PDF publishing, allowing all kinds of companies and individuals to keep a healthy flow of material on a daily basis*. If WotC stopped producing right now, the impact would be felt, definitely, but the Catalyst Game Labs, White Wolfs and Paizos are not tied so directly to WotC's market anymore. In fact, if WotC did go out of business, it probably would lead to those other companies boosting their income and thereby boosting their employment, marketing and publishing to new heights.
I'm not saying I want WotC to go under (I wouldn't mind it not being owned by Hasbro anymore, but that's my humble opinion). But the market is very different than it was 20, 10 or 5 years ago. While at GenCon, my friends and I spoke with some of the 'top dogs' at Catalyst Game Labs regarding their new game Eclipse Phase. Since the game is not one of their major products (Shadowrun/Battletech), they decided to release the PDF of the book at a relatively low price and were actually pushing players to share the pdf with their friends to get them interested. As the designer told us, "If you really like it, you'll go out and buy it. If you don't, we haven't lost anything."
Granted, a lot of third party publishers put out books and such that enhance D&D and aren't really anything 'new', but the market is such now that these books could still be released and sold for years after a supposed shutdown of WotC. For instance, look at the number of products that are not being published for OD&D. And Paizo have not created a viable company and business model being built on 3E. Five years ago, if you wanted to play 2nd edition or older, you either had to use the old books and modules or rework the rules for your own use. Now, you can find rules, modules and settings for these editions everywhere on the web.
Like I said, I'm not wishing WotC to go out of business, but I don't think they are holding up the industry like they once did.
*Regarding new material, I check DriveThruRPG everyday and their are at least ten new products a day. Most are clip-art or such, but I still see at least two or three modules/rulesets a day available for purchase. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 23:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
While at GenCon, my friends and I spoke with some of the 'top dogs' at Catalyst Game Labs regarding their new game Eclipse Phase.
Ooooh! Thanks Ashe. I completely forgot about the release of EP.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 09:09:23
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I have to say I disagree with Matt.
Since Sage and Wooly stepped up, things seem a whole lot calmer and friendlier around Candlekeep. As a lurker who mostly opens and closes lots of scrolls, I for one no longer feel these halls are treating I or anyone else who actively enjoys the 4E Realms as intruders in someone else's library.
Seems like there will always be scribes who aren't keen on the 4E Realms and who perceive the Spellplague in the absolute worst possible way (see KotG's earlier post) but that can't be helped.
I daresay things will continue to get better so long as calm, thinking heads remain at the helm. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 04 Nov 2009 12:08:55 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 14:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
I have to say I disagree with Matt.
 I had to do a double-take, thinking you were disagreeing with me! (silly me, sharing a first name with Mr. James...) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 14:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Since Sage and Wooly stepped up, things seem a whole lot calmer and friendlier around Candlekeep. As a lurker who mostly opens and closes lots of scrolls, I for one no longer feel these halls are treating I or anyone else who actively enjoys the 4E Realms as intruders in someone else's library.
We appreciate that Mr_Miscellany. Thank you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2009 : 19:25:38
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I was startled to read the first post by The Sage in this scroll. Candlekeep, in my opinion, is made whole by the presence of the people who have helped to bring ALL aspects of the Realms to life for us every one. Whether that be 1st Edition, through 4th Edition.
My point is this: I was aghast to think that my fellow scribes could be offensive to any one who has provided us with what we all so collectively love and enjoy so much. I have expressed my opinions of 4th Edition, but I hope that in my doing so that I never offended a single person. I didn't try to, and if I did, I'm not sure if I can be able to apologize enough.
I hope that the designers, creators, and authors are with us for many years to come - regardless of the opinions of anyone else. At least where I, and many others are concerned, they are greatly appreciated. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 08:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Aerik DeVallo
I was startled to read the first post by The Sage in this scroll. Candlekeep, in my opinion, is made whole by the presence of the people who have helped to bring ALL aspects of the Realms to life for us every one. Whether that be 1st Edition, through 4th Edition.
My point is this: I was aghast to think that my fellow scribes could be offensive to any one who has provided us with what we all so collectively love and enjoy so much. I have expressed my opinions of 4th Edition, but I hope that in my doing so that I never offended a single person. I didn't try to, and if I did, I'm not sure if I can be able to apologize enough.
I hope that the designers, creators, and authors are with us for many years to come - regardless of the opinions of anyone else. At least where I, and many others are concerned, they are greatly appreciated.
I agree with Aerik DeVallo. I was a little confused and disappointed about changes in 4th edition. But there is no helping it. I see it like horrible future, that cannot be changed, unless there is a way to timetravel back in time to stop these acts of gods.
By the way, it gives me idea about new adventure.
Someone who can't agree to that edition to the point of insult must be gone from the Forgotten Realms or learn wild magic and dwell in the past. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 05:23:51
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BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE?? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
I agree, and the same goes towards the same type of comments towards certain groups of fans Brimstone. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 07:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
I agree, and the same goes towards the same type of comments towards certain groups of fans Brimstone.
Indeed. I agree. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 09:55:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
BUMP!
Scribes should read this.
It's time that the snide names for a certain version of the Realms comes to an end here. I understand that one of the names is a mods pet name for this version of the Realms, so it gets a pass. NO MORE!
Do we as a community support the Realms? DO WE OR DON'T WE??
This is part of why the edition wars exist. Some people see the pre-4E Realms and the 4E Realms as being entirely different. Other people refuse to respect that opinion.
Yes, I coined both terms. Years ago. And I've backed off from them, mainly because I was tired of defending my opinion to those who would never respect it.
I've been trying to show some respect to others. I'd appreciate the same courtesy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 12:03:11
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| Well as a relative newcomer i dont know what candlekeep was like before but i for one am glad the mods are taking this initiative as the hostility directed towards the realms is a little surprising and disquieting in what is supposed to be a fan site. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 19:28:01
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I don't agree. It is not as if using one of the
alternative names of the Spellplague is a direct
attack at another individual. Everyone has
the right to their opinion.
Now I do agree
that the way that opinions are shared are
not done in the spirit of the Realms
I just happen to think we should stop trying to
change other people's opinion on parts of the
Realms we don't like, or at least agree to
disagree and leave it at that. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As such, I'm declaring that outright insulting for no other reason than to express one's distaste over the 4e Realms will no longer be tolerated.
We each have our opinions on the 4e Realms. And we each feel the need to express those opinions. That's great. Because that's what Candlekeep is all about. But, at the same time, it should be noted that expressing opinions about an official designer's work and/or efforts with the 4e Realms should receive just as much respect and care as do the opinions made about the works of designers from previous editions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign.
[...]
This ends now!
For this point on, if a scribe wishes to express dislike over something about the 4e Realms, you must also make an effort to respect the opinions of others who may hold opinions counter to your own, and also respect the work of the individual/s and/or products you're referring to. Inane negative commentary that directly insults others -- whether they be fellow scribes or official FR designers -- and adds no new or constructive elements to a discussion, will receive heavy scrutiny each and every time, and discussed privately with the offending scribe.
That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
Using as examples non-Realmsian 3.5 - 4 ed. trends, does this mean the right way to express opinion while respecting opinions would be something like "Naming supplements after previous supplements at very least introduces needless confusion. In some cases, when authors differ, it looks like pretending the previous ones didn't exist and thus the new version is completely original... not that there's something wrong with that"? Or, "Personally, i think the brand of 'philosophy' marketed by the Book of Exalted Deeds is inane at best and unsettling at worst - notthattheressomethingwrongwiththat!" - or what else does it practically mean?
It most definitely can be read this way. And if it can, will. Because even if to you it's quite clear, it's not necessarily obvious to every reader - yes, even to this degree. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 06:46:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
I'm not comfortable with being too specific about what scribes can and cannot do in discussion here at Candlekeep.
Some of our best scrolls have come from unexpected ideas and commentary that adds positive insights into a discussion. You can't be too specific when it comes to that kind of unexpected chatter. You can only shape and nurture, and, when necessary, curtail problematic discussion.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2012 : 11:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As such, I'm declaring that outright insulting for no other reason than to express one's distaste over the 4e Realms will no longer be tolerated.
We each have our opinions on the 4e Realms. And we each feel the need to express those opinions. That's great. Because that's what Candlekeep is all about. But, at the same time, it should be noted that expressing opinions about an official designer's work and/or efforts with the 4e Realms should receive just as much respect and care as do the opinions made about the works of designers from previous editions of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign.
[...]
This ends now!
For this point on, if a scribe wishes to express dislike over something about the 4e Realms, you must also make an effort to respect the opinions of others who may hold opinions counter to your own, and also respect the work of the individual/s and/or products you're referring to. Inane negative commentary that directly insults others -- whether they be fellow scribes or official FR designers -- and adds no new or constructive elements to a discussion, will receive heavy scrutiny each and every time, and discussed privately with the offending scribe.
That's cool, but not... constructive. I mean, "respect designers and authors" is a good, healthy idea, and i'm all for it. But that was a generic thunder in the sky, nut not a specific "do-s and don't-s instruction.
Using as examples non-Realmsian 3.5 - 4 ed. trends, does this mean the right way to express opinion while respecting opinions would be something like "Naming supplements after previous supplements at very least introduces needless confusion. In some cases, when authors differ, it looks like pretending the previous ones didn't exist and thus the new version is completely original... not that there's something wrong with that"? Or, "Personally, i think the brand of 'philosophy' marketed by the Book of Exalted Deeds is inane at best and unsettling at worst - notthattheressomethingwrongwiththat!" - or what else does it practically mean?
It most definitely can be read this way. And if it can, will. Because even if to you it's quite clear, it's not necessarily obvious to every reader - yes, even to this degree.
A large part of what prompted this scroll was the behavior of some scribes at the time this scroll was created. At that time, any time someone tried to discuss some aspect of lore in the 4E Realms, the thread was immediately flooded with anti-4E talk, most of it little better than "4E is t3h suck!"
That's the main focus here: making sure people are free to discuss what they want, and that everyone treats each other, and our designers, with at least a little bit of courtesy.
This isn't an attempt to censor speech or anything like that, as some will undoubtedly claim. We're just asking for some courtesy for everyone involved. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2012 11:06:16 |
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A message to all the scribes of Candlekeep...
