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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 06:52:01
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Thanks for the welcoming everyone!!!!
Please accept my apologies for being grumpier than a dwarf in my first post.
As you can tell, I do not comprehend everything, but willing to grow in my understanding of the realms.
For some reason, I landed here and at the end of the post there is a question that has been burning in my mind.
I will try to be more on topic in the future; but at this time, I do not know where in this forum to ask the question.
It just seems the new novels coming out recently have something missing compared to previous novels even though it is a great read.
Maybe after reading Crystal Mountain last week a great book btw and thoroughly enjoyed it I am upset over the Gods dying right and left, the planes never being the same again, etc.
I have looked through manuals at the bookstore and it appears to be different from everything I have learned before through playing computer role playing games.
My realization of everything changing, trying to figure out the time-line, and thinking the spell-plague was going to be temporary (and apparently it is not) made me really upset.
Maybe, it is a foolish feeling considering my age.
But with everything that is apparently going on, I feel completely discombobulated.
Here is the question: is 4e - more or less - responsible for Mystras demise; and if so, why?
I am having trouble understanding why it appears a winning formula is being taken away.
It reminds me of what happened to the New Coke by Coca-Cola several years ago and they finally went back to Classic Coke.
And why not take the changes SLOWLY - if I am understanding something correctly - like bridging the gap from 3.5 to 4.0 and gradually building up to where they appear to be now around 4.5 or 4.75?
In other words, why not make supplemental changes along the way instead of all at once?
~ Deathstar
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 07:14:53
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It's quite obvious in 4e's design that the designers redid all the math from the ground-up and then pinned D&D's tropes around that, instead of 3e's attempted renewal. This explains the incredibly simple and easy math for most anything in 4e, and the quick turn-around (see what SKR's said on the submarine aspect of 4e.)
So there's no 4.0 or 4.5 because 4e sort of sprang fully-formed; to be honest though, the back to square one and rebuilding is one of the best aspects of 4e, I find. |
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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 07:45:36
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Thanks Arivia for the explanation!
PS: Just realized I signed it as Deathstar instead of Darkstar in the previous post.
They are sisters and one is a Fighter 10/Cleric 20 and the other is a Wizard 20/Red Wizard 10.
Every once in a while, I may accidentally interchange their names. 
~ Darkstar |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 14:25:49
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| Just don't name a third sister 'Shadowstar'... we have enough Shadey things around here... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 15:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar Daimonizomal
Here is the question: is 4e - more or less - responsible for Mystras demise; and if so, why?
Yup. And the reason is because of misconceptions on the part of non-Realms fans, created by TSR/WotC's own marketing decisions.
See, the Chosen of Mystra were never intended to have a prominent role in the Realms. They were intended to be more along the lines of dispensers of advice, aiming PCs in the right direction, and then doing their own thing (which often meant working against other threats, and usually behind the scenes).
But WotC and TSR liked the Chosen, and insisted on dragging them into the limelight, and then holding them there. This gave people the impression that the Chosen were like the Justice League of the Realms. Not realizing that a dozen people can't be everywhere at once nor simultaneously watch over millions of people, a lot of folks decided that any time there was some threat, the Chosen could deal with it. So a mistaken perception developed, namely: "Why adventure? Some Chosen will come along and deal with it." It was also assumed that any time there was some threat, if the Chosen didn't deal with it, an explanation for why they didn't was needed.
On top of all this, in part of one novel, Mystra 2.0 was favoring good applications of magic, and nerfing evil applications of magic. She was slapped down for doing this, and thus, by the end of the book, stopped doing so. Despite this, somehow the perception took root that Mystra was a deity for good spellcasters, and that evil spellcasters were left out.
The combined effect was that Mystra was seen as a goody-goody, and her Chosen were seen as goody-goodies who dealt with every single bad thing in the Realms, minor or major.
The apparent decision at WotC was that these nay-sayers who would never like the Realms had to be appealed to, and that those of us who were dedicated fans would remain dedicated, no matter what happened. So in a burst of fire, illogic, and contradictory information, they blew up the setting, getting rid of the Chosen and their deity in the process. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 16:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just don't name a third sister 'Shadowstar'... we have enough Shadey things around here...
That's the title of the final book in what is probably my favorite trilogy of fantasy novels. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 17:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert<snip>
getting rid of the Chosen<snip>
Now, now, oh wooly one... They didn't 'get rid of' Chosen, but made it so any PC can become one!  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 17:14:57
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Right.
By the same token, I think they should eliminate ALL professional sports teams, and on game day they should just let anyone who wants to play be a major-league player.
People shouldn't have to earn anything in this life - Phat Lewtz should be handed-out to anyone who whines long enough (and by NO MEANS should anyone ever feel bad because someone is 'better' then them... thats so un-PC).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2009 17:15:25 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 17:16:24
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| I thought this was about what Wizards could have done instead - not about what we don't like with what they did? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 17:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I thought this was about what Wizards could have done instead - not about what we don't like with what they did?
True. Another topic gone astray from dislike of what was done. We need to stop doing that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 18:40:39
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| ... instead of slaying the odd-million Halruaans, as many Thayans and Maztikans? Having nasty Loviatar half-drow priestesses burned alive in Dambrath, laying waste to various panthei and introducing creatures no Realmsfan would want to see even the backsides of? Well, I could think of three dozen things, but I simply don't want to. I have enough AD&D and 3.xE FR material here to be content with for the rest of my career as a DM ... and I have the Pathfinder rules to go along with that. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 24 Jul 2009 19:40:49 |
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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 01:01:18
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Thanks for the in-depth explanations!
It was very informative.
Admittedly, I had the same misconceptions about the Chosens.
But, I only liked the Simbul.
Am a Drow at heart in the games & novels and make Matron Mother Malice look like a saint.
For once, I will post something short before getting banned due to causing another topic going astray.
~ Darkstar |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2009 : 02:50:05
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In response to the scroll topic: I think that the 4E Realms as they exist would have been much more palatable had they made a *complete* break from the past, and gotten rid of Drizzt, Elminster, the Simbul, Storm, and Dove as well. As it was, having these links to the past reminding us "old guard" of what used to be felt to me like a slap in the face. Another positive would have been *not* nuking Halruaa, and instead having the Realms in a state of "magical-nuclear detente" between Halruaa, Thay, and the Shades. Those alone would have made the 100-year time jump work... sort of. It still wouldn't have been the Realms, but it would have felt more like a world I could play in and enjoy.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2009 : 16:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
As it was, having these links to the past reminding us "old guard" of what used to be felt to me like a slap in the face.
Mind you not all of us "old guard" feel that way. I'm quite content to see links to the past in the form of old NPCs still running around the Realms.
Though some of those NPCs were already quite old, having them age in the sense of when I first encountered them in the sourcebooks to where they are now makes them more interesting to me.
It quite naturally leaves me wondering: how they've changed, what experiences have they had, have they found love(s) and lost it, made new enemies or forged new friendships, been on amazing adventures, etc...?
Please note I'm in no way saying you're wrong: Your feelings are genuine. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 00:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
As it was, having these links to the past reminding us "old guard" of what used to be felt to me like a slap in the face.
Mind you not all of us "old guard" feel that way. I'm quite content to see links to the past in the form of old NPCs still running around the Realms.
... though you can count them on a single hand these days. They made a decent job in wiping the NPCs from the Realms' surface (and Underdark) in the latest novels, series and guidebooks, e.g. you have to look hard for any listed chap in the FRCS who is still alive. The only sacrosanct beings about appear to come from the main money-spinner of the FR novel line, i.e. the Drizzt novel folk. After The Crystal Mountain, I doubt I will touch another FR book for many a long day - unless it is set in the Old Realms. (Still hoping that the Knights of Myth Drannor series will continue.) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 01:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I don't think Marcus was saying anyone who stayed with the Realms is a 'fanboy', but that WotC viewed ALL the fans of the Realms as 'fanboys' that would accept anything dished out to them. It's more about how some believed that we would buy anything with the words Forgotten Realms on it without first looking through it and seeing if we like it. Some, like yourself, like (at least some of) the changes that were put forth. Others did not.
I think it's not just that; rather, in my opinion they chose to completely leave the "old guard" out of the equation (in the sense that "If they buy, it's good, but let's not rely on it") to create a "new" fanbase out of people who were new to D&D or previously disliked or ignored the Realms. It was a deliberate risk, and one that did not apparently pay off in the long run. Maybe LFR is going strong (or not; I can't say because I don't know the numbers) but these days 4E FR is getting dramatically less love on the message boards than FR ever has -- people who disliked or ignored it previously are still doing that, and most of the "old guard" is still playing in 3E FR. Furthermore, they announced the "only-three-books-per-setting"-thing after 4E FR had come out, even though RB had said (IIRC) on the WoTC boards that if it sells well, there likely will be upcoming FR releases (and none have been announced). Still, this is all anecdotal evidence based on my own observations, but I have a strong feeling that 4E FR "tanked" in WoTC's eyes... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 03:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
... though you can count them on a single hand these days.
And what of it?
Though I don't agree there are that few left, isn't it only natural that new NPCs should come along to fill the spaces left by those who have passed on?
The Realms has a rich history. How does it not follow that, as the Realms changes and the timeline advances, the rich tapestry should be enhanced by those NPCs we know so well, with the opportunity to allow new figures to come forth that will -in time- pass on as well?
Speaking from a pure gaming perspective, it's no difficult thing for me to pull an NPC from a Volo's Guide and use the full description therein in my 4E Realms game.
Whatever path WotC could have taken differently, the one thing they did right was to make it so there was enough of a gap to make it possible to re-use the "old" NPCs. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 28 Jul 2009 03:16:37 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 04:26:42
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What is the purpose of introducing new NPCs to fill in the spaces of the old? They have said the reason for getting rid of the NPCs was due to fan response that there were too many powerful NPCs and to allow the PCs to fill the slot left by them.
If they are just going to introduce new NPCs, then it's going against every reason for getting rid of the old. Unless it's to tell new stories of characters that weren't getting the spotlight before because of other characters. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 05:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
<chop>
Still, this is all anecdotal evidence based on my own observations, but I have a strong feeling that 4E FR "tanked" in WoTC's eyes...
Does anyone have any hard numbers for sales of the 4E Realms products? The only website I could find with such data for any titles required you to be a publisher or major book retailer to have access. 
Edit: Ashe: I just had a look at your character sheet... cool sword! Where'd you find it?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 28 Jul 2009 05:40:08 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 09:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
... though you can count them on a single hand these days.
And what of it?
Though I don't agree there are that few left, isn't it only natural that new NPCs should come along to fill the spaces left by those who have passed on?
The point is that many appear to be force-killed rather than dying of old age and the like. I won't go into this further, since many readers might not have learned of the fate of quite a number of the villains and good-doers that were presented in the FRCS or before.
IMHO, as is often the case, while the mass is content and "silent" with what they received in AD&D and 3E lore, those who were crying out loudest were the minority who had a problem with the rich NPC tradition of the Realms. And I would go even further and say that these "louds" primarily included players of fighter characters (not least in 3E), who always found the equal- or higher-level spell-hurling NPC in the next village or city too hard to stomach. This constant "whining" on the boards apparently gave a wrong impression to the designers so they started a tabula rasa with regards to spell-hurlers, only to find out the the silent masses revolt "the day after". Just MHO and none that needs to be discussed at detail.
What irks me most though is the fact that EBERRON was created to be exactly a setting that is less-stuffed with high-level folk, so that PCs could become somesuch and DM had the privilege to create what they want and fill in the "white spaces". |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 29 Jul 2009 21:50:09 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 13:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Edit: Ashe: I just had a look at your character sheet... cool sword! Where'd you find it?
Shadowdale! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2009 : 23:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
What is the purpose of introducing new NPCs to fill in the spaces of the old? They have said the reason for getting rid of the NPCs was due to fan response that there were too many powerful NPCs and to allow the PCs to fill the slot left by them.
I'm confused.
I see "NPCs" and "powerful NPCS" used interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2009 : 22:04:58
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I believe what Mr.Misc is trying to say (and forgive me if I'm wrong) is that 'people' had a problem with powerful NPCs, NOT NPCs in general. Ergo, WotC is replacing all the powerful NPCs with ones of MUCH lower levels (because the players - and their PCs - are supposed to be 'The Stars' of the game).
Not agreeing or disagreeing with any of this, mind you, just relaying things as I'm reading them.
To now add-in my own two cents, I believe they are not going to actually replace anywhere near as many NPCs as were lost, ostensibly so that the DM has the freedom to 'fill-in-the-blanks' with his own material.
Once again, not agreeing with any of that - thats just the gist of what I think is the intent of their current plan (which I may be interpretting wrong... walking on those eggs again here). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jul 2009 22:06:41 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2009 : 22:59:56
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| I don't remember much time being spent on NPC's in the FRCG. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 09:35:19
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| Then again, I cant remember there being much information on lesser or "common" people of the Realms during the 3ed. era either, from what I remember (its been quite a while since I have opened any other book than the Serpent book from that edition)it was mostly mid to high level NPC's and most of these were newer ones and not those mentioned in the previous editions, giving us even more high level characters. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 11:22:21
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Well, the thing is that many description of this or that village or city had a list of authority people and important people and amongst them a few Wiz14s or Sor11s were noted. Sometimes not much more than that. Nigh all 3E sourcebooks had them somewhere, be that Magic of Faerūn, Champions of Ruin, Dragon of Faerūn and what have you. The adventure series like Cormyr, Shadowdale and Anauroch even more. That usually still pales to the likes of Cloak & Dagger of days gone by, but still.
I have to say that the only real NPCs of name that I can remember of the FRCG are those listed for Menzoberranzan, but there might be the odd nap hand more somewhere else.
The whole "PC shall be the stars" attitude (that was meant for Eberron, unless I am gravely mistaken - hence the lack of all that many NPCs in the setting - compared to the Realms?) is something for the younger generation though ... and something that was all possible before too. The point - at the end of the day, adventure and campaign is: whatever your heroes do at the table, their names will (as before) never enter the setting in any sort of capacity. Hence, the setting as such will remain bereft of (N)PCs, just as it seems to be now. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 12:31:26
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Most of the nameless NPC's had little effect on the setting as a whole, and most others, such as those from the Volo guides could just as well be included in the new Realms could they not?
The Grey box, Greyhawk, Krynn etc, all had a limited amount of NPC's and were perfectly runnable. It worked before and there is little reason for it not working again. And there is thousands of pages of material to steal from and include in ones own Realm. If one wanted to run the 4ed it wouldn't be much of a problem to "restock" the setting so to speak. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 12:58:56
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Right.
Newer DMs need to borrow from older edition books to flesh-out their campaigns. That has always been the case.
The problem now is that those NPCs are canonically dead. No big to some folks (I could care less), but a lot of FR DMs like to keep their games as close to canon as possible.
Which brings us right back to those "feelings of entitlement" and whole 'nother reason that 4eFR got 're-imagined' - to clear the slate.
So although both arguments have merit (high-level NPCs overshadowed the PCs & 'elitisat attitude' amongst FR fans), the solutions provided for the two problems are not mutually conducive. A lack of new material forces new players to read old material, thus recreating the problems of 'entitlement'.
As I've been saying for awhile now - I understand ALL of their arguments, and even agree with them on many levels... its the solutions that I think suck eggs.
Edit: I just realized that there is a third problem here with the solution to a lack of detail (reading old sourcebooks) - WotC has recently made all of their older sourcebooks unavailable on pdf, which now leaves new DMs with these options - make it all up themselves, or sign-up for the DDi and hope they will actually cover something you will use.
At the same time they are not planing to release any other sourcebooks about FR, they also limited the availability of information about FR. So while I hear the argument all the time from 4e DMs that you can still use the older sourcebooks, that simply isn't true for anyone now getting into FR for the first time.
And if we think back to which books 'hooked us' into this great setting in the first place, I think most of us will agree it wasn't the Campaign or player's guides - it was all the extraneous material (like the Volo's Guides). One could argue it was the 1e/2e boxed sets, but those were so much more then setting guides.
One last Point...
One of the early points they made after the 4e announcement was that they wanted players to "think D&D, NOT Forgotten Realms" (or Greyhawk, or Dragonlance, etc...). The new design paradigm seems to work toward that end, not allowing people to become too deeply immersed in each setting (I also understand tthat reasoning - FR fans buy FR books, D&D fans buy ALL the books).
So while I 'know' what they are trying to achieve (and the reasoning behind it), I get the feeling that they really don't understand the hobby. "Feelings of entitlement" (which I used to call 'setting love') is PART OF THE HOBBY. I find the long discussions about minutia just as important as actually playing the game... and they just don't 'get that'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2009 13:15:09 |
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SeeDiGi
Acolyte
Bermuda
34 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 17:19:29
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| What do you mean 'entitlement'? I think that people who like the world should feel entitled to having info about it (if WOTC is going to put it out on it to begin with). Did I maybe misunderstand your meaning? |
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What paths could they have taken?
