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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 14:48:41
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The problem with that business-model, Krash, is that you have to sell 'losing products' in order to maintain the rest. Even large corporations do it (I used to work for Home Depot, so I know).
Its like this: Wendy's sells Deluxe bacon Cheeseburgers for 99¢. They don't make anything off of them... they DO make a fortune off the soda (they make about $1.95 off a $2 drink).
What Hasbro is attempting to do is not bother to sell the cheeseburgers... they just want everyone to buy the sodas.
But you see, we can get a better deal on soda elsewhere... 
I know you weren't agreeing with WotC there, merely explaining it... but it's not viable.
I had more here, but I realized I was just repeating myself. Bottom line is a business NEEDS to take some hits in order to sell the rest of their lines, and Wizbro is working on the fallacy that they can just sell "the good stuff". A Bannana Split is delicious, and the toppings make the whole thing 'work'... but if an Icecream parlor decided to just sell toppings and no Icecream, they'd find out soon enough everyone was going elsewhere for the flavors.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 04:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
1479 Realms stories belong on Candlekeep as much as Eberron, Dark Sun or World of Darkness stories belong on it. That's to say, not alot. It's immensely frustrating that it keeps coming up, as it's highly distracting to someone like me who would like to discuss the Realms on here, only to have to continually run into this 1479 Realms drivel.
Meh. I'd rather ten people who can enjoy all of the Realms be here then even one who can't. At least then I'll know I'm dealing with people who are sincere when they say they want to talk about the Realms.
::::::::::
It's likely we won't see the Realms come around again, and if we do it'll be much the same: Two books that put the Realms into the framework of whatever form the 5E rules take and that's it.
But looking past that to the flavor and detail, mood, theme and nature of the setting....well I don't see that as having changed.
Having read through this scroll, I see the idea going around that we've lost the detail. We've lost that indescribable something that makes the Realms seem alive and we won't get that going forward. I agree we're not likely to see good, detailed sourcebooks that flesh out the 1400's and that's a loss, especially for every new DM that picks up the 4E FRCG and FRPG and has little clue at the weight of what's come before.
The novels can give us some comfort and hopefully illuminate the Realms for these new players as well.
But beyond this lack of new detail, does it follow that the feeling of the Realms is gone. No, of course not. How could it be?
The feeling is still there for me.
Seriously, I still feel it when I read of the Realms and play D&D in them. When I'm looking through the half a hundred adventure ideas and locations in the Campaign Guide, I still see the possibility of that many or more good adventures in my mind's eye. When I see the sample portraits (for Paragon paths and so on) in the Player's Guide, I'm left wondering about each individual so pictured.
It's really no different than pondering the artwork and pouring over the location descriptions in the FRCS or the 1E and 2E Realms boxed sets.
And taken as a whole, the FRCG and the FRPG -just like any other sourcebooks- have added to the Realms, not subtracted from them. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 20 Jul 2009 04:12:12 |
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SeeDiGi
Acolyte
Bermuda
34 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 20:57:36
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| well not for me. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 21:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
1479 Realms stories belong on Candlekeep as much as Eberron, Dark Sun or World of Darkness stories belong on it. That's to say, not alot. It's immensely frustrating that it keeps coming up, as it's highly distracting to someone like me who would like to discuss the Realms on here, only to have to continually run into this 1479 Realms drivel.
Meh. I'd rather ten people who can enjoy all of the Realms be here then even one who can't. At least then I'll know I'm dealing with people who are sincere when they say they want to talk about the Realms.
I do enjoy all the Realms. What you seem to forget is that what WoTC currently put out is categorically not the Realms.
By the way, WoTC didn't add. Or subtract really. They nuked the setting from orbit, salted the earth, burnt anything that remained and then threw together a rather poor replacement setting. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 20:31:40
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Yet for all that blather, I was still able to sit down last night to a good game of D&D in the 4E Realms with good friends and have a great time. My players got to face off against Ettercaps and Shadar-Kai, puzzled over how powerful ancient arcane traps of Netherese make could still be after a millenia and a half, and haggled with an expatriate Red Wizard that they'd captured over the secrets of Saharelgaurd and whether Cormyr had a right to claim the place for its own.
Your opinion is set, Uzzy, no changing that. But it's also just that.
Though I'll admit it's enough to encourage me to talk about the 4E Realms on Candlekeep as much as possible.
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 21:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Yet for all that blather, I was still able to sit down last night to a good game of D&D in the 4E Realms with good friends and have a great time. My players got to face off against Ettercaps and Shadar-Kai, puzzled over how powerful ancient arcane traps of Netherese make could still be after a millenia and a half, and haggled with an expatriate Red Wizard that they'd captured over the secrets of Saharelgaurd and whether Cormyr had a right to claim the place for its own.
Your opinion is set, Uzzy, no changing that. But it's also just that.
Though I'll admit it's enough to encourage me to talk about the 4E Realms on Candlekeep as much as possible.
"All that blather" Wow, could you be more condescending? You're so dismissive of someone else's opinion, not realizing that your opinion is not any more or any less valuable than anyone else's. Fine, you're a 4E fanboy. Just because you think WotC walks on water is no call to be insulting to anyone else. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 21:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
"All that blather" Wow, could you be more condescending? You're so dismissive of someone else's opinion, not realizing that your opinion is not any more or any less valuable than anyone else's. Fine, you're a 4E fanboy. Just because you think WotC walks on water is no call to be insulting to anyone else.
Hey, calm down. He's not being condescending, he's pointing out that to those of us who are playing in 4e, the descriptions really are a lot of hyperbole. Additionally, calling someone a fanboy out of negative connotations (and insinuating opinions about their thoughts regarding other WotC products) is totally out of line, insulting and not supported by anything he's said. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 21:37:47
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Too true Arivia.
Although I and Mr. M seem to disagree (frequently), Calling him a fanboy and such is way out of line. Especially in these sacred halls... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 22:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
"All that blather" Wow, could you be more condescending? You're so dismissive of someone else's opinion, not realizing that your opinion is not any more or any less valuable than anyone else's. Fine, you're a 4E fanboy. Just because you think WotC walks on water is no call to be insulting to anyone else.
Hey, calm down. He's not being condescending, he's pointing out that to those of us who are playing in 4e, the descriptions really are a lot of hyperbole. Additionally, calling someone a fanboy out of negative connotations (and insinuating opinions about their thoughts regarding other WotC products) is totally out of line, insulting and not supported by anything he's said.
Refering to opinions he doesn't agree with as blather is insulting.
And I've read several posts by him. Everything else he's said supports calling him a 4E fanboy. When all a person can do is praise something and insult those who don't like it, fanboy is the right label. If he can't respect others, I'll not respect him.
Maybe I'm being rude, but insulting my opinion is just as rude. At least I'm thinking for myself and not parroting someone else's lines. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 00:53:07
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Sigh. 
I'm a Forgotten Realms fanboy. Rules systems and edition wars are meaningless. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 01:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Yet for all that blather, I was still able to sit down last night to a good game of D&D in the 4E Realms with good friends and have a great time. My players got to face off against Ettercaps and Shadar-Kai, puzzled over how powerful ancient arcane traps of Netherese make could still be after a millenia and a half, and haggled with an expatriate Red Wizard that they'd captured over the secrets of Saharelgaurd and whether Cormyr had a right to claim the place for its own.
Your opinion is set, Uzzy, no changing that. But it's also just that.
Though I'll admit it's enough to encourage me to talk about the 4E Realms on Candlekeep as much as possible.
I think this comes down to gaming style, really; not all groups are interested in "needless fluff" such as history, cultural/religious traditions, local NPCs and customs, layout of the town, and so on. These guys start yawning as they're reading the latest hand-out you have painstakingly written, or when you've spent the last hour detailing the regional history. They want less details and more action, and that's just fine. For me, the level of details and depth of lore were the very reason I fell in love with the Realms.
The old guard is in a unique position in the sense that we *can* add details from the books we own, but a lot has changed, too -- if you run your campaigns with (for the lack of a better word in my English vocabulary) "average" level of details and lore (e.g. you don't draw town maps or care about minor NPCs or local shops), you'll be fine. However, if you need to practically redesign every town, village and city with maps and all, it's a lot of extra work. In fact, whatever time (and more) I could save with 4E making things easier for DMs, I'd hate to spend on rewriting stuff.
And, having read the 4E books, I just don't see the same spirit or feel there. YMMV, of course. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Darkstar Daimonizomal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 05:14:56
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Well met!
I am not sure if I should have made my fist post in the welcoming section, but this thread peaked my interest; and hopefully, I can provide some insight for being new to FR and my take on 4E - please forgive the longer than expected post.
As a brief introduction (and maybe important for understanding my position on the new setting as a "causal person"), I am new to FR (2006 for reading novels) and only played D&D (on paper) once back in junior high school around 1981.
In college, I started reading DL and really enjoyed it since it was a natural progression from the Xanth novels.
In 1997 or 1998, I started playing Diablo which I thought was “real” D&D.
(Sorry about the sacrilege.)
In 2000 or 2001, I played my first real RPG game and realized Diablo did not cut it compared to Pool of Radiance: RoMD and the excitement of really leveling up!!!!
I went absolutely nuts over NWN and thought about an “uncivil lawsuit” against Bioware for the sleep deprivation that ensued.
In 2006, I made one of the best choices in my life during a vacation in Hawaii.
There were two books that absolutely looked interesting and I decided on “The Legacy of the Drow” since it was the most economical between the two books.
Since then, I demolish FR novels and have trouble finding new books to read.
Why did I bring all of this up in the longest winded post ever?
Because as a newer member/casual person to the realms, I think the new spell-plague setting is a bunch of “male bovine fecal matter.”
All I can tell you as a "casual person" is the following:
1. I found this site because I was absolutely confused of what in the world was going on – nothing was making sense anymore.
2. It was the setting that absolutely captivated me.
3. Taking the realms to the lowest common denominator – if this is really happening since I do not know anyone who plays paper RPGs - is not smart at all.
It was learning the feats and which level to take fireball in games and browsing through the Monster Companions for better visualizations in book stores and other related books that made the realms so interesting.
As for the question of what could have been done:
- Some of it could have been accomplished through Ebberon or other related non-FR series, and/or
- Taking the best from FR and possibly incorporating the newer rules SLOWLY for a smoother transition from 3.X to 4E in less well known places instead of turning all of Faerun's cities into another Chernobyl.
You would have no idea how hard it is trying to put the pieces together.
It was so bad, I started looking all over the place for FR time-lines to piece everything together.
IMHO, the new FR setting is nothing more but mass confusion for newer people concerning the history and no longer as exciting as it once was.
Please forgive me for ranting – I should have taken deeper breaths before posting.
(A rant like this will NEVER happen again.)
I am just that passionate about it (even though I only read the novels and play CRPGs) and very glad I finally found the site of all sites for FR information.
What does RSE stand for – Realm Shattering Episodes or Experiences? :-)
Seriously, I really do not know what RSE stands for????
~ Deathstar |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 06:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar Daimonizomal
What does RSE stand for – Realm Shattering Episodes or Experiences? :-)
Seriously, I really do not know what RSE stands for????
~ Deathstar
Welcome, Darkstar! 
RSE is either Realms Shaking Event or Realms Shattering Event, whichever you prefer. One of those big, the world as we know it will never be the same type of things. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 15:59:52
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| Welcome and well met, Darkstar! Thank you for your little bits of insight into this matter, I really appreciated them. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 16:35:11
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WELL MET Darkstar! Welcome to the bestest (FR) Forums on the Internet. 
Without trying to sound 'bitter' or 'condescending, his post got me thinking once again... and I'll try to keep-it as on-topic as possible.
Things change... thats life. When changes are made on-pupsose, its always done in order to appeal to people that the thing didn't appeal to before. Whether we are talking about a woman's hair color, or a product line, people do NOT make changes to please the people who are already happy with things the way they are.
Ergo, it is a fact that FR was changed to attract it's detractors, and not to appeal to it's already existing fan-base. I have come to the conclusion that they thought the majority of us were unthinking, rabib-fanbois who would just "take the hits" and roll-over (and continue to be fans). This has born fruit in some cases (I see at least two above), but the majority of us lost our connection to the Realms when it was re-imagined for 4e.
Since I've encountered far mor RPGers (over the years) who were fans of the Realms then detractors, I have to also assume that the WotC guys thought the number of haters it brought into the fold vastly out-numbered the amount fans lost by the changes, given that I don't think there were really enough non-fans to make just that group alone a viable option.
So they were counting on losing very few FR fans, and gaining all those gamers who didn't like the Realms. I hope that worked-out for them.
As for me, I just don't see it, but whatever. The most poignant thing Darkstar posted was his #2 -
2. It was the setting that absolutely captivated me.
THAT says it all. Great first post, Darkstar.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2009 16:35:37 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 17:53:44
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Firstly, well met Darkstar Daimonizomal. I don't share your opinions, but I respect your feelings. I hope you'll stay here for as long as you like, for you'll find many here who think as you do from the count of those who've already heartily welcomed you.
Now, to Markus.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When changes are made on-pupsose, its always done in order to appeal to people that the thing didn't appeal to before. Whether we are talking about a woman's hair color, or a product line, people do NOT make changes to please the people who are already happy with things the way they are.
Not true, of course.
For example: When 3rd Edition was released, it wasn't made 'just' for people who didn't like 2nd Edition AD&D or who had otherwise walked away from the game. I think most people were happy with 2nd Edition AD&D, for all of its clunky rules and rules holes, because it was what people knew, what they understood and could modify, and what they'd been using for a long, long time.
Likewise when the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was released, it was meant to take all Realms fans and not just Realms haters and brand new gamers and put them all right back in the setting, armed with the excellent new rules set. This despite a plethora of novels and sourcebooks already written about the place since the setting was first published.
And it worked.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ergo, it is a fact that FR was changed to attract it's detractors, and not to appeal to it's already existing fan-base.
I distinctly remember sitting a few paces away from Ed Greenwood a GenCon, as he related to us all in a very distinct, matter of fact voice, the following: "The Realms must change." No overemphasis there. That's just as I heard him say it.
Does it follow that the setting had to change as much as it did? No, certainly not, at least in my opinion. They (WotC) went overboard and it shows.
But as long time Realms fans know, the setting has changed in massive ways in its past more than once. Sure WotC's reasoning may have been wrong, but the concept of massive change is nothing new to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have come to the conclusion that they thought the majority of us were unthinking, rabid-fanbois who would just "take the hits" and roll-over (and continue to be fans). This has borne fruit in some cases (I see at least two above),
Heh, so much for you trying to not sound bitter or condescending.
You know now that I think on it, that's twice in the very short time since I've returned (all of three days) to this forum that I've either directly or indirectly been referred to as a "fanboy/fanboi".
Just how low have these halls sunken of late? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 18:36:09
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| I don't think Marcus was saying anyone who stayed with the Realms is a 'fanboy', but that WotC viewed ALL the fans of the Realms as 'fanboys' that would accept anything dished out to them. It's more about how some believed that we would buy anything with the words Forgotten Realms on it without first looking through it and seeing if we like it. Some, like yourself, like (at least some of) the changes that were put forth. Others did not. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 19:23:51
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| I'd agree with you, but for the statement, "I see at least two above." His meaning is pretty clear, and it sure as hell is not appreciated. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 19:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Just how low have these halls sunken of late?
Is there really a need to generalise every single time you disagree with someone? I don't like to see the throwing around of terms like "fanboys" or "real" fans myself, but broad categorisations doesn't really help matters either. I am tired of being bunched in the other group by both sides.
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 19:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
You know now that I think on it, that's twice in the very short time since I've returned (all of three days) to this forum that I've either directly or indirectly been referred to as a "fanboy/fanboi".
Just how low have these halls sunken of late?
Yeah, it's not you, it's everyone else. Just because more than one person has said the same thing about your attitude, it couldn't possibly be true. 
Maybe if you adjusted your attitude, you'd find people more receptive to your comments. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 19:48:21
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Mr_Misc - to be 100% honest, I was NOT referring to you.
In fact, for reasons of my own, I feel I must 'walk on eggs' around you (at least in the current time-frame). I'm not an unfeeling monster (despite what some of my players may tell you ).
Think of it as a 'respect thing'. I know you are BIG fan of the Realms (every edition), and I am sure you are one helluva DM (when it comes to non-editon war discussions, I tend to side with you in terms of how to run games - I'm sure I would enjoy being a player of yours).
And as I stated above, I was going to try to leave my feelings out of it. I was trying to make it more of a 'human nature' thing, then a specific WotC thing (in other words, if someone's wife suddenly dyes her hair from Blonde to Black, and her husband always loved the blonde hair, you can be sure as hell that there is 'someone' who's attention she is trying to attract - I've seen it a thousand times.. I have ZERO faith in human nature at this point).
It's more then just 4eFR (I have no problem with the rules at this point, and plan to use them soon). I spent the better part of yesterday sitting in a holding cell thanks to my ex, and the next five hours walking home from six towns over (so some bitterness is bound to creep into anything I might post in the last 24 hours - I apologize).
I can't even stand-up today, let alone walk. 
But enough off-topicness... I was specifically addressing the setting, and not 4e in general. We do agree, I see, on at least one point - that WotC went overboard. Lets just agree on that one thing and leave it at that.
I believe change is good, and welcomed the last two editions (even with the ToT ushering in the first, and the Shades being the harbingers of the second). Change IS a good thing, and keeps a setting from getting stagnant.
Too much change, though, and you wind-up with a whole different animal. Obviously there was enough of that 'old Realms feel' for many fans to take the plunge, as you did. Thats fine... I just feel more was lost then gained, is all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2009 18:53:27 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 19:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip>I believe change is good, and welcomed the last two editions (even with the ToT ushering in the first, and the Shades being the harbingers of the second). Change IS a good thing, and keeps a setting from getting stagnant.<snip>
Dammit! Now I got the hamster's PB&J theory running through my skull again... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 20:11:21
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PB&J theory? 
Doesn't ring a bell...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 20:23:03
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PB&J - Peanut Butter & Jelly.
And it's more of an analogy than a theory if you have to be picky about what words to use (which I frequently am - it's still spelled Ruathym in case you haven't fixed it). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 20:44:16
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| I'm pretty sure it's a page back or so in this thread. If not, the Wooly one can surely grace us with it again (I think he's got it in a Word document so he can copy & paste it... ) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 20:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm pretty sure it's a page back or so in this thread. If not, the Wooly one can surely grace us with it again (I think he's got it in a Word document so he can copy & paste it... )
Notepad, actually. I make extensive use of it. Though most of the stuff I have for copying and pasting here is on an HTML page, along with links to all the websites I hit on a regular basis.
Here's my analogy: I like a good peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I like them with a liberal amount of Jif creamy peanut butter and a liberal amount of Smucker's strawberry jam, all on two pieces of white bread. To me, that's the idea PBJ.
And if the Realms was a PBJ, that was 1E and 2E.
Now, you can swap the Jif creamy peanut butter for Peter Pan extra crunchy. And you can swap the Smucker's strawberry for store-brand grape jelly. This sandwich is not my ideal PBJ, but it still has peanut butter, and it still has jelly. It is therefore still a PBJ. This is the 3E Realms.
Now comes 4E. WotC said some people were allergic to peanuts, so they swapped out the peanut butter for cheese. And they said some people don't like jelly, so that was removed in favor of lunch meat. And then WotC pointed to it and said "Look! We improved your PBJ! And you know it's still a PBJ, because it's still on white bread!"
That cheese and lunch meat sandwich might be very delicious... But when I'm told it's a PBJ, I'm expecting it to be a PBJ. When I bite in and discover an absence of PB and an absence of J, then I am not going to be happy, because it's not what I wanted, and it's not what I was told it was. If I had been told it was cheese and lunch meat, then I would have expected those things, and I wouldn't have been unhappy. Instead, they sold me a PBJ without the peanut butter or the jelly.
You improve a PBJ by using better jelly and better peanut butter. You don't improve it by removing both of them. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SeeDiGi
Acolyte
Bermuda
34 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 23:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Not true, of course.
For example: When 3rd Edition was released, it wasn't made 'just' for people who didn't like 2nd Edition AD&D or who had otherwise walked away from the game. I think most people were happy with 2nd Edition AD&D, for all of its clunky rules and rules holes, because it was what people knew, what they understood and could modify, and what they'd been using for a long, long time.
Likewise when the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was released, it was meant to take all Realms fans and not just Realms haters and brand new gamers and put them all right back in the setting, armed with the excellent new rules set. This despite a plethora of novels and sourcebooks already written about the place since the setting was first published.
And it worked.
I distinctly remember sitting a few paces away from Ed Greenwood a GenCon, as he related to us all in a very distinct, matter of fact voice, the following: "The Realms must change." No overemphasis there. That's just as I heard him say it.
Does it follow that the setting had to change as much as it did? No, certainly not, at least in my opinion. They (WotC) went overboard and it shows.
But as long time Realms fans know, the setting has changed in massive ways in its past more than once. Sure WotC's reasoning may have been wrong, but the concept of massive change is nothing new to the Realms.
Heh, so much for you trying to not sound bitter or condescending.
You know now that I think on it, that's twice in the very short time since I've returned (all of three days) to this forum that I've either directly or indirectly been referred to as a "fanboy/fanboi".
Just how low have these halls sunken of late?
All that blather would do it. |
Edited by - SeeDiGi on 23 Jul 2009 23:23:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 00:04:11
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| Okay, so maybe we've spent enough time on the topic of each other's attitudes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 02:13:38
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Agreed. Returning to the intended topic, I would like to say again(?) (I'm sure I've already said it) that the best path was to develop one or more of the "Unknown Lands" as a simpler, less deity-and established-NPC-riddled part of the Realms for players who wanted that sort of thing, thereby keeping all that the rest of us liked about the Realms. I have rather strong thoughts about the consequences of the path that was taken, but this is not the place (nor the time) to discuss them. Let's just say that I'm still playing with the 3.5 ruleset (plus house rules, but who doesn't have those?), still having fun in the Realms, working around what 4E has wrought, looking forward to Pathfinder, and optimistic about 5E.
And I agree entirely with Markustay here:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<chop>
The most poignant thing Darkstar posted was his #2 -
2. It was the setting that absolutely captivated me.
THAT says it all. Great first post, Darkstar.
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Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 Jul 2009 02:23:48 |
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What paths could they have taken?
