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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2009 : 18:00:01
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| Let's be careful with accusing people of selling out. While I'm as ready as anyone else to bash 4E and/or the Shattered Realms, I keep my opinions about specific individuals quiet. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2009 : 18:24:32
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Which is why I carefuly worded that.
I'm sure we all have our thoughts on the matter, but pointing fingers would just be useless supposition and counter-productive to this site... which is why I haven't voiced my opinion on that particular matter (even though there was a thread to that effect sometime ago).
I was merely stating how I feel - not any sort of factual evidence exists to that end (nor could it, given the tenuous nature of 'motives').
I wouldn't have even brought it up, but since PDK did brouch the taboo subject, I just felt he should know he is not alone (although, as I have said, I may or may not agree on which people he is pointing a finger at, nor care to elaborate further).
I think it's just a simple matter of "not biting the hand that feeds you", is all. Nothing nefarious... just smart business. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jul 2009 18:25:29 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2009 : 23:45:41
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| I think that I have come to the conclusion that they Spellplague, as much as I dislike it, could have been a good thing if it had been handled in a way that was caring of the (then) current fans. The way that I think this could have been carried out, would have been to have Ed, Krash, Steven, and maybe a couple of the new guys (BRJ and Eytan get my vote here) to do what WotC wanted but to give it a more positive spin and ease us into the new Realms instead of the brutal bashing-over-the-head we received. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2009 : 23:47:47
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| SKR, and Monte Cook would have been other good author choices, though I am not sure Monte would have been willing to do it. Not that I begrudge him, I love his non-Realmsian work too, and stuff that is entirely his own seems to be what he wants to work on. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 01:57:18
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Of course it'd have been a positive thing if the Spellplague was done by someone who cared about the setting and the fans. Anything can be positive if it's carried out by someone who cared about the setting, both destructive and constructive things.
But it wasn't, was it? It was carried out by someone who wanted nothing more then to butcher the Realms and get rid of what he perceived as garbage. The fact that what he perceived as garbage was much of what made the Realms the Realms just goes to show how much he cared about the setting and its fans.
P.s. Why are we still discussing it? WoTC's current offering isn't the Realms, and this board is based around the discussion of the Realms. So let's do that. Let's discuss the Realms in all it's glory. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 02:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Of course it'd have been a positive thing if the Spellplague was done by someone who cared about the setting and the fans. Anything can be positive if it's carried out by someone who cared about the setting, both destructive and constructive things.
But it wasn't, was it? It was carried out by someone who wanted nothing more then to butcher the Realms and get rid of what he perceived as garbage. The fact that what he perceived as garbage was much of what made the Realms the Realms just goes to show how much he cared about the setting and its fans.
P.s. Why are we still discussing it? WoTC's current offering isn't the Realms, and this board is based around the discussion of the Realms. So let's do that. Let's discuss the Realms in all it's glory.
Because it is still the Realms? Yes, things changed, some for the worse, but there's still stories to be told - and good ones at that. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 03:17:15
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Saying it's still the Realms is like saying the America of pre 1776 is the same America of today. Same name, but huge differences.
Sure, you can tell stories in the new 'Realms', but we could and still can in the old one. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 03:57:50
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| Right, but there's nothing that makes stories in a pre-Spellplague Realms antithetical to those in a post-Spellplague Realms. The mere idea of the Realms up until 1375 doesn't exclude 1479 Realms stories in Candlekeep. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 04:07:31
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Well, you have to like and/or accept the changes.
I have accepted a few, and even like a couple of others, but for the most part, I just don't get that feeling that I get when I read the older material. The old stuff (even 3e) makes my imagination run in a thousand directions at once, whereas the new stuff makes me scratch my head and say "how can I make this work?"
Maybe its just me, but I have a feeling it's not.
Besides, why run a game in 1479 and have to make everything up myself, when I can run one in the late 1300's and have any source material I could possibly need at my fingertips?
A pre-fab setting is supposed to work for ME, not the other way around. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 04:19:39
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| True, but liking or disliking a setting is a far cry from declaring it legitimate in and of itself. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 04:54:32
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I think the disconnect that this discussion might be having is that saying that you could still give the Realms the same feel that it had in previous editions even after the Spellplague and the 100 year time jump, if you had enough designers that had a feel for the setting and said designers had enough products to contextualize the events in the greater framework of Realmslore is not the same as saying, if you could go back, would the Spellplague and the 100 year time jump have been the only way to advance the setting going forward.
I think what George and THO and others are trying to say is that, given time and space, the right people could still do some really interesting, "Realmsian" things with the setting, but with things as they stand, the "little things" that a lot of us love about the Realms will never get redefined in this era. Had the time jump been 10 years, or 0 years, trying to present the setting with only two products and divorced of any nuance or context takes away what really is the heart of the Realms . . . that the place has so many details lovingly etched into every corner that you can loose yourself to the setting as if it were a real place. Its hard to do what when every place has to be summed up in 2-4 pages and then moved away from, possibly forever.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 15:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Of course it'd have been a positive thing if the Spellplague was done by someone who cared about the setting and the fans. Anything can be positive if it's carried out by someone who cared about the setting, both destructive and constructive things.
But it wasn't, was it? It was carried out by someone who wanted nothing more then to butcher the Realms and get rid of what he perceived as garbage. The fact that what he perceived as garbage was much of what made the Realms the Realms just goes to show how much he cared about the setting and its fans.
P.s. Why are we still discussing it? WoTC's current offering isn't the Realms, and this board is based around the discussion of the Realms. So let's do that. Let's discuss the Realms in all it's glory.
Because it is still the Realms? Yes, things changed, some for the worse, but there's still stories to be told - and good ones at that.
The fact that you can still tell stories does not mean nothing has changed... You can tell stories on Krynn, Pern, or set them in Shadowrun Seattle -- but that doesn't mean that those stories can be told in other settings.
For me, the setting is a very important part of the story. It's almost a character in and of itself. When, from one story to the next, a character undergoes a radical transformation and is almost entirely different, he's not the same character he once was. Just because you liked who he was doesn't mean who he is now is going to be as likable. Since I place the same importance on setting as I do on characters, when the setting changes, it really affects the story. I've now read 2 of the 4E stories -- admittedly, a small sample -- but I simply couldn't get past the setting enough to really enjoy the tales. It was too jarring.
As I see it, so much has changed with the setting that it is not the same setting anymore. Everything we knew about the setting is changed. All the NPCs are dead, some cities/nations have become practically unrecognizable from what they were, the gods have changed, the planes have changed, magic has changed, even the land itself changed, and a previously detailed history became irrelevant and dominated by a huge blank spot. At some point, when you keep swapping out elements, what you had becomes something entirely different that isn't at all related to what it was.
Here's my analogy, which I've posted before: I like a good peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I like them with a liberal amount of Jif creamy peanut butter and a liberal amount of Smucker's strawberry jam, all on two pieces of white bread. To me, that's the idea PBJ.
And if the Realms was a PBJ, that was 1E and 2E.
Now, you can swap the Jif creamy peanut butter for Peter Pan extra crunchy. And you can swap the Smucker's strawberry for store-brand grape jelly. This sandwich is not my ideal PBJ, but it still has peanut butter, and it still has jelly. It is therefore still a PBJ. This is the 3E Realms.
Now comes 4E. WotC said some people were allergic to peanuts, so they swapped out the peanut butter for cheese. And they said some people don't like jelly, so that was removed in favor of lunch meat. And then WotC pointed to it and said "Look! We improved your PBJ! And you know it's still a PBJ, because it's still on white bread!"
That cheese and lunch meat sandwich might be very delicious... But when I'm told it's a PBJ, I'm expecting it to be a PBJ. When I bite in and discover an absence of PB and an absence of J, then I am not going to be happy, because it's not what I wanted, and it's not what I was told it was. If I had been told it was cheese and lunch meat, then I would have expected those things, and I wouldn't have been unhappy. Instead, they sold me a PBJ without the peanut butter or the jelly.
You improve a PBJ by using better jelly and better peanut butter. You don't improve it by removing both of them. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 15:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think what George and THO and others are trying to say is that, given time and space, the right people could still do some really interesting, "Realmsian" things with the setting, but with things as they stand, the "little things" that a lot of us love about the Realms will never get redefined in this era. Had the time jump been 10 years, or 0 years, trying to present the setting with only two products and divorced of any nuance or context takes away what really is the heart of the Realms . . . that the place has so many details lovingly etched into every corner that you can lose yourself to the setting as if it were a real place. Its hard to do that when every place has to be summed up in 2-4 pages and then moved away from, possibly forever.
Yup.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 16:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert<snip>
The fact that you can still tell stories does not mean nothing has changed... You can tell stories on Krynn, Pern, or set them in Shadowrun Seattle -- but that doesn't mean that those stories can be told in other settings.
For me, the setting is a very important part of the story. It's almost a character in and of itself. When, from one story to the next, a character undergoes a radical transformation and is almost entirely different, he's not the same character he once was. Just because you liked who he was doesn't mean who he is now is going to be as likable. Since I place the same importance on setting as I do on characters, when the setting changes, it really affects the story. I've now read 2 of the 4E stories -- admittedly, a small sample -- but I simply couldn't get past the setting enough to really enjoy the tales. It was too jarring.
<snip>
I keep coming back to the whole "Dark Ages" setting change done to BattleTech (wow... I just looked up some stuff and it's been 7 years!). For those that don't follow, WizKids got the BattleTech IP and they blew up the setting and jumped forward 100 years. And the novels followed suit.
I remember that there was excitement because the relaunch and new business meant they could afford to get a new Michael Stackpole novel. Now, I love Mr. Stackpole's BattleTech novels. I consider him writing BattleTech to be the equivalent of Tolkien writing about hobbits or Tom Clancy writing CIA. It's his niche and I hungrily devour his books. So I picked up the new novel and came away dissatisfied.
Michael's writing was superb, exactly how he wrote previous BattleTech novels. The setting, however, ruined it. It was too much change and the fact that they were pushing the 'new' WorkMechs because BattleMechs weren't as widespread any more.
Of course, the happy ending of this story is that Classic BattleTech was born. Then WizKids was shut down due to the economy, Catalyst Game Labs was able to bring the BattleTech IP back, so Classic is once again just BattleTech and the Clicky-Mechs are disappearing.
I'm certainly not implying that the future for the Realms will be the same, but there's a part of me that tried to read Swordmage and couldn't get past the setting changes even with Mr. Baker's excellent writing... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 16:47:44
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| That's a good example. I love Stackpole's stuff, but even he couldn't get me to accept the Jihad or any of its ramifications. What got me into the setting was no longer there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 16:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I keep coming back to the whole "Dark Ages" setting change done to BattleTech (wow... I just looked up some stuff and it's been 7 years!). For those that don't follow, WizKids got the BattleTech IP and they blew up the setting and jumped forward 100 years. And the novels followed suit.
[...]
Of course, the happy ending of this story is that Classic BattleTech was born. Then WizKids was shut down due to the economy, Catalyst Game Labs was able to bring the BattleTech IP back, so Classic is once again just BattleTech and the Clicky-Mechs are disappearing.
I feel it's important to note, however, that even with the 70 year time-jump incorporated into the BATTLETECH universe, there was still source material and fiction being officially published and released that supported the original 3067 [prior-to-the-Dark Age-time-jump] timeline, in addition to the books printed for the MECHWARRIOR: DARK AGE/AGE OF DESTRUCTION setting.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 17:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I keep coming back to the whole "Dark Ages" setting change done to BattleTech (wow... I just looked up some stuff and it's been 7 years!). For those that don't follow, WizKids got the BattleTech IP and they blew up the setting and jumped forward 100 years. And the novels followed suit.
[...]
Of course, the happy ending of this story is that Classic BattleTech was born. Then WizKids was shut down due to the economy, Catalyst Game Labs was able to bring the BattleTech IP back, so Classic is once again just BattleTech and the Clicky-Mechs are disappearing.
I feel it's important to note, however, that even with the 70 year time-jump incorporated into the BATTLETECH universe, there was still source material and fiction being officially published and released that supported the original 3067 [prior-to-the-Dark Age-time-jump] timeline, in addition to the books printed for the MECHWARRIOR: DARK AGE/AGE OF DESTRUCTION setting.
True, but the Classic BattleTech stuff was put out by a third-party vendor that licensed the material from WizKids, it wasn't the 'parent company' that put out the material. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 16 Jul 2009 17:11:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 17:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I keep coming back to the whole "Dark Ages" setting change done to BattleTech (wow... I just looked up some stuff and it's been 7 years!). For those that don't follow, WizKids got the BattleTech IP and they blew up the setting and jumped forward 100 years. And the novels followed suit.
[...]
Of course, the happy ending of this story is that Classic BattleTech was born. Then WizKids was shut down due to the economy, Catalyst Game Labs was able to bring the BattleTech IP back, so Classic is once again just BattleTech and the Clicky-Mechs are disappearing.
I feel it's important to note, however, that even with the 70 year time-jump incorporated into the BATTLETECH universe, there was still source material and fiction being officially published and released that supported the original 3067 [prior-to-the-Dark Age-time-jump] timeline, in addition to the books printed for the MECHWARRIOR: DARK AGE/AGE OF DESTRUCTION setting.
True, but the Classic BattleTech stuff was put out by a third-party vendor that licensed the material from WizKids, it wasn't the 'parent company' that put out the material.
Not only that, but there was a gap between the Dark Age being inflicted on us and them going back to fill in the blanks. Originally, it was much like the Sellplague: "Okay, we blew up the setting; here's where we're at now. Don't worry about details of the blowing up, or how we got to where we are now -- just run with it, okay?" We had that for a good two or three years before they decided to start dribbling out details on the Jihad (and in my opinion, those details made it even more ludicrous).
In my opinion, they only gave us info on the Jihad because we the fanbase did not, as a whole, rush to embrace the new version of the setting.
Even now, the Jihad remains as divisive a topic among BattleTech fans as the Sellplague is among FR fans. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 18:36:39
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The 'funny' thing about the Jihad division and BattleTech fans is that the setting material is entirely extraneous. I have yet to play in a BattleTech scenario where novel canon had anything to do with the game. And yet the fans are still debating that.
That's what gets me about the Spellplague, the fact that you look at BattleTech and there's still arguments years after the event, and it doesn't even affect gameplay. The changes in the Realms will be divisive for a long, long, LONG time.
Edit: I'm speaking entirely of the Lore changes to BattleTech. The 'ClickTech' that was introduced by WizKids was a major change to how to play the game, but I'm not sure it was embraced by anyone, even fans of the Jihad and time-jump. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 16 Jul 2009 18:38:41 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 22:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Right, but there's nothing that makes stories in a pre-Spellplague Realms antithetical to those in a post-Spellplague Realms. The mere idea of the Realms up until 1375 doesn't exclude 1479 Realms stories in Candlekeep.
1479 Realms stories belong on Candlekeep as much as Eberron, Dark Sun or World of Darkness stories belong on it. That's to say, not alot. It's immensely frustrating that it keeps coming up, as it's highly distracting to someone like me who would like to discuss the Realms on here, only to have to continually run into this 1479 Realms drivel. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 23:02:18
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I wouldn't go that far.
I may not care for the new Realms, but CK shouldn't follow an 'elitist' mentality (it never did concerning any other edition). There are plenty of pre-Spellplague things I'm not a huge fan of, but I wouldn't want to to censor info about them (like the Shades).
And the last few posts brought up an intersting point - the new Realms wouldn't be 'so bad' if we thought we'd be getting more info, but we are not. They 'erased' the old setting, and then left the new one almost blank.
The only way to get more info is to sign up for the DDi, join the RPGA and LFR, or BUY NOVELS... rather self-serving, eh? I don't care for the DDi, am not a fan of organized play, and as for novels.......
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm certainly not implying that the future for the Realms will be the same, but there's a part of me that tried to read Swordmage and couldn't get past the setting changes even with Mr. Baker's excellent writing...
To be brutally honest, I felt that way about Blackstaff Tower. 
I enjoyed Swordmage very much, and it really could have taken place in the 'old Realms' (in fact... the way certain things worked, it almost appears as if it did... weird, that). The Spellplague was only mentioned a couple of times, and it was more in-passing then anything prominent.
I guess because BT took place in Waterdeep, I felt like I was getting my nose rubbed in Spellplague on every other page.
Now, I want to be perfectly honest - I am a HUGE fan of Steven's work on the Realms, and not so much of fan of RB's stuff... but of the two post-plague novels I read, I have to say I enjoyed Swordmage much more.
And that has nothing to do with writing quality or even storyline... it was more about locale - its not like we knew anything about Hulburg before, so it all felt new and fresh, whereas Waterdeep felt old, dirty, and broken. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2009 01:39:19 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 23:07:53
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| Exactly Markus. I agree with most of you, that the Spellplague was very poorly handled, so was the hundred-year gap, and I'm very very sad about a lot of my favorite characters being dead. Running a 1479 game, there have been times where I've double-checked something and almost thrown my books against the wall for what they've done to it. And I miss regular supplements too. But that doesn't mean it should be something that's excluded from Candlekeep. I'm getting as much use out of everything on Cormyr in the 1400s as I would in the 1300s. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2009 : 00:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not only that, but there was a gap between the Dark Age being inflicted on us and them going back to fill in the blanks. Originally, it was much like the Sellplague: "Okay, we blew up the setting; here's where we're at now. Don't worry about details of the blowing up, or how we got to where we are now -- just run with it, okay?" We had that for a good two or three years before they decided to start dribbling out details on the Jihad (and in my opinion, those details made it even more ludicrous).
Can't quite agree with that. And I don't feel it's entirely true either.
It was in Ghost War [the first DARK AGE novel] that we were introduced to certain plot points that featured pre-time-jump details about the Jihad and past events. And that trend continued throughout the novels even while the CLASSIC BATTLETECH sourcebooks remained in publishing limbo.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2009 : 00:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I may not care for the new Realms, but CK shouldn't follow an 'elitist' mentality (it never did concerning any other edition).
Rest assured, so long as I remain a Moderator here at Candlekeep, that'll never be the case. I've long maintained the policy of keeping Candlekeep "edition-neutral." I know scribes here value our community as a forum for the free exchange of ideas about any and all aspects of the Realms -- representing the many and diverse elements that everyone enjoys.
Thus, Candlekeep will remain a place where ALL things about the Realms can be discussed. That's what makes this site so great, I believe.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2009 : 19:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Right, but there's nothing that makes stories in a pre-Spellplague Realms antithetical to those in a post-Spellplague Realms. The mere idea of the Realms up until 1375 doesn't exclude 1479 Realms stories in Candlekeep.
1479 Realms stories belong on Candlekeep as much as Eberron, Dark Sun or World of Darkness stories belong on it. That's to say, not alot. It's immensely frustrating that it keeps coming up, as it's highly distracting to someone like me who would like to discuss the Realms on here, only to have to continually run into this 1479 Realms drivel.
Emotionally, I agree with you. Logically, I still half-agree with you. It's still the Realms, but there's no FR branding any more. 4E Realms products don't look any different from 4E core products, inside or out; it's all meant to be completely interchangeable and... ick... generic. That being said, I like the presence of warforged in the Realms; I brought them in on my own and made them ancient creations of Netheril whose construction was rediscovered in the Nether Scrolls/Quess'Ar'Teranthvar.
Where I don't agree with you is that, like it or not, it's still the Realms (at least in name), what we have is the way it was done, and for better or for worse, it exists. I'm taking the path of ignoring it as published (with the exception of Laerakond, as noted elsewhere) and (as the original poster suggested) developing the "Unknown Lands" as places to put the new things... the path Ed fought hard for, as I understand it, and this would have simply been the best path to take. It gives the people with new ideas a place to put them, and allows the people who love the Realms to continue enjoying the world they know and love. Far better for Realms sales than the 4E blowup, IMHO, would have been 3.5 sourcebooks for "Lands of Intrigue," "Bloodstone Lands," "Old Empires," and "Cormyr and Sembia." I told Wizbro as much on their boards directly shortly after the 4E FRCG came out, and then I asked them to close my account on their boards. Whether or not this was done, I don't know; I haven't been back to any part of wizards.com since, and this will continue unless they decide to make the Cormyr lineage available on the site as a free download.  Yes, I'm obsessed. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2009 : 20:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think what George and THO and others are trying to say is that, given time and space, the right people could still do some really interesting, "Realmsian" things with the setting, but with things as they stand, the "little things" that a lot of us love about the Realms will never get redefined in this era. Had the time jump been 10 years, or 0 years, trying to present the setting with only two products and divorced of any nuance or context takes away what really is the heart of the Realms . . . that the place has so many details lovingly etched into every corner that you can lose yourself to the setting as if it were a real place. Its hard to do that when every place has to be summed up in 2-4 pages and then moved away from, possibly forever.
Yup.
-- George Krashos
But wasn't this the entire rationale for doing what they did in the first place? "Everything was too detailed," they said, so GMs felt handcuffed by the amount of detail they had to deal with. The right solution is simple: If you don't want it, don't use it. That doesn't mean, "legislate it out of existence to deprive those of us who like the details." I could go on about this, but the language I would be compelled to use would make any sailor blush, and I like the mods on this board too much to put them through that... oh, and I like it here, and I don't want to be banned. I almost *asked* (very politely, of course) to be banned over at the Wizboards after FR4 came out. Instead, I just stopped going there. They probably wouldn't have given me what I asked for anyway.  Anyway, this is threatening to turn into a rant, and this is not something I want to rant about at this point. I've responded to the main thread of the scroll in my previous post, but I wanted to address this point by KEJ as well. I'll shut up now.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 03:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Far better for Realms sales than the 4E blowup, IMHO, would have been 3.5 sourcebooks for "Lands of Intrigue," "Bloodstone Lands," "Old Empires," and "Cormyr and Sembia."
Sales on regional sourcebooks have (as I understand it) never been big sellers except to a small subset of gamers in general, and then a smaller subset again in terms of FR fans (junkies and DMs intending to set their campaigns in that particular area). They rarely approached the sales volume figures of generic sourcebooks.
Hence the take on FR4E was to provide the basics for a setting (and get what sales you could from the FR branding) and then hope that FR gamers bought core books to flesh out the setting.
It's a logical business model.
Hence I don't think that your statement above is necessarily true.
My view is that while the business model adopted by WotC is perfectly reasonable and justifiable, it wasn't the only model they could have adopted. I don't agree that they have "re-invented" the Realms at all, as a "two book re-boot" can only try (but IMO fail) to match a setting with 20 years of products and information under its belt. WotC have decided to gain what sales it can from those with an interest in the Realms on a one-off basis and then look for sales elsewhere. By the time they run out of settings to write two books on, it'll be more than time for 5E and then the process will start over again, perhaps with a different model, or maybe the same again. At that time, in terms of gaming products, the Realms may or may not feature in the next edition.
The Realms now belongs (as it always has in spirit) to Ed and the fans. Make of it what you will but don't waste energy about communicating with WotC about the state of the Realms in a gaming context. They stopped caring the minute they released the FRPG, and don't particularly care that you haven't.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 04:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
<chop>
WotC have decided to gain what sales it can from those with an interest in the Realms on a one-off basis and then look for sales elsewhere. By the time they run out of settings to write two books on, it'll be more than time for 5E and then the process will start over again, perhaps with a different model, or maybe the same again. At that time, in terms of gaming products, the Realms may or may not feature in the next edition.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know how the 4E Realms have done sales-wise?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms now belongs (as it always has in spirit) to Ed and the fans. Make of it what you will but don't waste energy about communicating with WotC about the state of the Realms in a gaming context. They stopped caring the minute they released the FRPG, and don't particularly care that you haven't.
-- George Krashos
(emphasis mine) That's what I've believed from Day 1 of 4E... I was just hoping I was wrong. George, thank you (I think) for confirming that I was right.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 04:54:55
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 That's just my opinion - the "rightness" of it can't be judged except at a visceral level.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 07:07:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms now belongs (as it always has in spirit) to Ed and the fans. Make of it what you will but don't waste energy about communicating with WotC about the state of the Realms in a gaming context. They stopped caring the minute they released the FRPG, and don't particularly care that you haven't.
-- George Krashos
(emphasis mine) That's what I've believed from Day 1 of 4E... I was just hoping I was wrong. George, thank you (I think) for confirming that I was right.
Friend Krash gives WotC more credit than I do. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jul 2009 07:07:26 |
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What paths could they have taken?
