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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 13:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
<snip>
Did you ask him why the event that prompted the removal of those materials was the sharing of a 4E book, something not purchased on any of those legitimate sites?
Actually, the material was purchased from a legitimate site, which is how they knew who to sue (alliteration much?), since it had a encoded pixel with the buyer's account information. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 14:44:58
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In response to Capvan
* I was making notes
* I was suggesting things I'd like WotC to do (and pointed him to some threads that did the same). He said that while WotC can not make anybody happy, some ideas are 'valid'. He explicitly mentioned the release of previously unreleased pre-4E pre-spellplague material in electronic format.
* At some point in the discussion we talked about piracy. He said that WotC will not resume pdf sales in the traditional manner, as piracy of pdfs is too much of a problem for them. He said there "are" (with an heavy emphasis) means WotC is/or will be exploring to sell their e-content pirate-proof.
* The only thing I concluded is that I believe that they are currently testing a system which they believe works for their purposes. I have no idea if this is true, and how such a system could look like. But it wouldn't make sense to say that there are ways to securely sell pirate proof e-content if you had never seen or heard of such a system. Again this is the only speculation on my behalf.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 15:01:01
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The only way to 'pirate-proof' anything is to send the U.S, Navy in.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 15:41:15
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| Yes, both Paizo and DriveThruRPG/RPGNow were selling the 4E books online. The PHBII was the item of concern as it showed up on the Pirate sites the day of the release. ENWorld has a thread started by one of the defendants who bought the pdf and let a player in his group 'borrow' it, who then went on and uploaded it to the pirate sites. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 15:45:11
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Also, the only method I know of to prevent somebody from putting a pdf up for piracy is to make sure they can't save it locally. You can put DRM/Watermarking and whatever else you want on it, but it's simply a matter of time before someone figures out how to strip it off.
PS: The biggest mistake of this whole mess is the revelation by WotC that there's an encoded pixel in the PDFs bought online. Now the pirates are going to be looking for that. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 18:41:06
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| It seems to me that any pre-4e material they publish for FR is just a bone they're throwing to fans, trying to get them back on board so that they'll be purchasing SOMETHING on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I certainly won't be biting. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 18:59:21
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Well, if they do produce new pre-plague lore (whch I really doubt), I would be tempted to sign-up for the DDi. As of right now it has nothing to offer me, and maybe WotC is considering other options for attracting people to the DDi.
It all depends on how the DDi is actually doing, which none of us are privy to, but this could be more a move of 'desperation', then them just 'being nice'. If they really need to get those DDi numbers up (and I'm sure they do), this could just be that 'bone' that most of us have been waiting to be thrown. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 19:21:08
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Maybe this will deal with all of those useless NDA's. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 19:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'll have you know, young lady, that the lack of recognition I get for my innumerable contributions to the advancement of the human condition is positively criminal. To hope for some petty material rewards is not silly, it is admirably modest of me. By all rights I should be offered status as unquestioned tyrant, not merely a living wage.
Then I shall do all in my power to help fulfill your noble wish, O Great One.
quote:
Unless you were referring to the hope of WotC to eventually gather all D&D and Realms fans under their protective wing once more?
I was. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 19:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Maybe this will deal with all of those useless NDA's.
I TRULY doubt that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 20:08:49
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| I see it, I believe it, till then I dont have much faith in mere posts of this or that. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 21:58:12
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| I would have thought that WotC would have been able to make more money from lawsuits if they had kept the encoded pixel a secret and kept the PDFs available for purchase, in addition to selling all the older edition (1e and 2e) books that they never bothered to watermark because (I always assumed) they really didn't care about them. And to keep it a secret that they had the encoded pixels they could have just offered to prosecute the offenders for less money if they signed a confidentiality agreement. Now, who knows how much money they will spend on developing this new digital format with some sort of DRM with no incoming income from digital copies of books at all? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
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* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 24 Apr 2009 21:58:50 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 22:54:36
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| They have a way in the online Dragon and Dungeon -- we might keep an eye on that. Last year Chris Perkins answered a question of mine saying they hoped to get publishing Ed's basement Realmslore backlog, |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2009 : 23:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
They have a way in the online Dragon and Dungeon -- we might keep an eye on that. Last year Chris Perkins answered a question of mine saying they hoped to get publishing Ed's basement Realmslore backlog,
Bunch of 20 year old NDA's sitting around gathering dust. Give the masses what they want! REALMSLORE BY ED! 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 00:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
They have a way in the online Dragon and Dungeon <snip>
They do?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 04:45:37
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I said this in an earlier thread (probably the DDi one) -
The ONLY way to make things 'pirate proof' is for Adobe and all other 3rd-party pdf proggies to get together with Microsoft (and possibly Apple and Netscape as well) and create a propriety system from scratch that will allow files to be copied to a registered computer, and perhaps a second computer registered to the same owner, and then have the operating system itself block any other copying of said file, including uploades to the internet. Aside from the rather obvious logistics problems with getting everyone to play nice (and not have Billy Gates try to control everything), that still isn't a perfect solution because you could still transfer files using other protocols and lesser-knwn OS's (like Linus).
That means it might actually be easier to force all future Mobo manufactures to include a chip on the boards, sort of like how TV's have to include the V-Chip, and have the blocking done somehow in hardware (also a difficult and costly solution). However, older machines will still be able to bypass the securty features, so that isn't much of a solution either... at least not an immediate one.
Thats why I have gotten my circa 1979 VCR repaired twice already - I can copy whatever I want. 
Of course, I do that with DVDs these days, but I still own that VCR...
No security solution will ever be foolproof, because five minutes later some unscrupulous genius will figure out how to get around it. Thats just the way it is.
The trick is to make illegal downoads pointless. I could find any pdf I want on the Internet, but I was buying all the older edition stuff I didn't have from Paizo (like all of the OA modules).
I wasn't paying for them because I'm such an honest guy - I was doing it because for just $4 a piece it was stupid not to pay for them. Why break Federal Laws for just $4?
See... thats the trick... produce tons and tons of lore and then sell it to us a couple of pages at a time for just $1 - anyone would be willing to pay for that.
Except someone who was never going to bother buying it in the first place... in which case you never lost a thing.
WotC needs to learn that the Internet is about QUANTITY. Hell... they already got half the formula down, now that they threw quality out the window. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2009 04:49:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 20:23:58
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| For what its worth, my read on the original comment was that they would be releasing older edition lore that already exists in another format, not that they would be creating new lore set in the pre-4E timeframe. Honestly, that interpretation didn't even occur to me until I read this thread, and upon rereading the comments, it still seems to me like they are only talking about re-releasing already existing lore. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2009 : 20:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, my read on the original comment was that they would be releasing older edition lore that already exists in another format, not that they would be creating new lore set in the pre-4E timeframe. Honestly, that interpretation didn't even occur to me until I read this thread, and upon rereading the comments, it still seems to me like they are only talking about re-releasing already existing lore.
Indeed, that's how it sounded like to me and this was how it was discussed at Gencon, as you know. :) Now, of course, Wizards might have changed their mind about creating new lore for the older dates, but that, to me, invalidates some of their reasons for advancing 100 years into the future. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 09:53:05
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quote:
Now, of course, Wizards might have changed their mind about creating new lore for the older dates, but that, to me, invalidates some of their reasons for advancing 100 years into the future.
Even wizards change their minds sometimes 
Since he was referring to a specific passage in my initial email, I'm sure that its about previously unreleased pre-spellplague material.
This is content that WotC already paid for. Content that IS already available.
We did not talk about old products that were formerly available as pdfs or print products at that point in our conversation.
Tyr is my witness
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 11:27:54
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| But Tyr is dead ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 12:35:13
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no i'm not, I saw him post it :p
Besides, with most things Wizards say, you've gotta wait for it to actually happen before you take their word for it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 16:17:42
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This entire conversation reminds me of why I hated my previous job. It's the Boy who cried Wolf syndrome. Once it's been established that a company has lied to the public (development of 4th edition), everyone begins doubting any information they release. Add to that unforeseen problems (their release of DDi tools, the alienation of long-time fans, etc.) and soon every decision the company makes or talks about is placed in doubt and heavily scrutinized. No longer will anyone have simple faith in what they say or do, for every action they take must now try to 'win over' the people that have lost faith. This is especially difficult when those same people find something new to believe in (Pathfinder).
The overall problem is that most of the fans that do not like what they have done in the past few years will take every word and believe they are being lied to, even if they are not. And, speaking from my own personal experience, the only true way to reverse that belief is to a) make MAJOR fundamental changes; b) publish detailed timelines and project plans with regular updates on progress and c) removal of key individuals seen (correctly or not) as the antagonists behind lies and/or problems. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 17:35:20
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Not only that, but some people are so angry at Wizards that anything Wizards does is seen in the worst possible light.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2009 : 19:35:30
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One can "turn the other cheek" only so often.
In a very short time, you run out of cheeks.
Anyhow, "Seeing is believing" and all of that. And even if everything they promise comes to pass, in the end... how many of us really care anymore? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 03:13:11
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I don't see this as a case of us being "lied to," I just see it as a case of vague wording--and how easy it is for one to interpret such statements in the most favorable way possible.
quote:
Since he was referring to a specific passage in my initial email, I'm sure that its about previously unreleased pre-spellplague material.
Brix, what makes you so certain? I think if he didn't explicitly state that WotC was developing new pre-Spellplague Realmslore, it's probably best not to assume that's what he meant.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 06:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One can "turn the other cheek" only so often.
In a very short time, you run out of cheeks.
Four cheeks, four editions. Coincidence? I think not.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 07:16:09
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I am glad somebody else said it!
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 14:46:22
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To pirate proff, I guess it would be something similar to what they do with the Xbox 360 (for instance, I downloaded some songs for Rockband that I can play on my 360 or my bros' 360 with my hard drive, but since I downloaded them WHILE on my bros' 360, I cannot play them while I am offline on mine, only while online on mine)...sad but true  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 16:16:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
To pirate proff, I guess it would be something similar to what they do with the Xbox 360 (for instance, I downloaded some songs for Rockband that I can play on my 360 or my bros' 360 with my hard drive, but since I downloaded them WHILE on my bros' 360, I cannot play them while I am offline on mine, only while online on mine)...sad but true
See, that's going too far, as far as I'm concerned.
I myself have gone thru a lot of computers... Just a few weeks ago, I was setting up a new(er) machine for myself, and it annoyed me, so I decided to give it to my dad (whose computer is pathetic). While I was doing that, though, I upgraded to a larger hard drive for all my data (I didn't need more room as much as I needed to make a couple partitions larger). Then my computer died the other day, and I had to order a replacement, which should arrive on Wednesday.
Now, some companies are rather DRM-happy, and I'd have lost data if I had anything from those companies. But it's because of changing computers and random mishaps (I also had a hard drive crap out on me, once, and I've seen it happen to others) that I don't deal with those companies.
Whatever Wizards decides to adopt for their new digital offerings, they need to allow for the fact that no PC or hard drive is going to last forever. I won't pay for content I can't store locally and move to another PC if I have to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2009 : 17:27:13
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VERY good point.
I was switching computers once, and I had the problem of losing a serial number for a very expensive program, and even though I had all the original books and discs (and box!), the company in question (Corel) said they could do nothing for me, and I'd have to pay for another copy in full. I even asked if there was some way I could retrieve the serial number from the still-functional copy on the old machine, but they claimed there was no way to do that.
I was so disgusted, I just never bothered to use the product again.
If I had pirated the software, I would have just downloaded a newer version pirated copy - it wouldn't have stopped me at all. The only thing their 'security' hampers are paying customers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2009 17:28:39 |
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Topic |
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Wizards about to release pre 4E Realmslore
