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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 23:56:08
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My main problem with the class is this: It's not a class, it's a culture- and it's the ONLY class that's entirely cultural. It's one of the few times when I miss 2e, since there, you were just a fighter with the berserker kit, and a backstory that played up your uncivilized upbringing.
Second, why are ALL barbarians berserkers? It works for the Rashemi, and maybe for SOME Ork tribes, but I just don't see the Uthgardt or Ruathym as foaming-at-the-mouth madmen... rather, I picture them as lightly armored foot raiders who use boats (Ruathym) or knowledge of the lay of the land (Uthgardt) to triumph rather than brute force vis-a-vis the barbarian's Rage.
As such, I've almost entirely replaced the barbarian with the Raider class from the (defunct) d20 Game of Thrones game system. It's adaptable to terrain, gives the movement bonus, has a perfect skill-set and does a good job of giving the 'edge of civilization' feel to whatever player uses it. It allows for different 'raider types' such as Plains, Mountain, Horse, Sea, and Woodland Raiders, AND has a 'ferocious combatant' option which simulates the Rage.
Has anyone else shifted to this (or any other) variant of the Barbarian? Just curious, and wanted to recommend it to anyone who has access to the aGoTd20 book.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2009 : 23:59:22
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| That actually sounds pretty good... I've never been teribly fond of the barbarian class, myself, but the alternate you speak of makes it sound like it would work. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 00:24:24
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Yeah, it's a vast improvement over the Bbn- again, it applies to any terrain, so there's a big difference between (say) a Ruathym Sea-Raider and an Elk tribesman from beyond the Spine of the World.
I'd love to post the class, but I'm not sure of the rules on doing so. The company that published the book (Guardians of Order) are totally defunct, and noone has any plans to use the IP (the game rules, that is- Green Ronin is making a new Game of Thrones RPG). Suffice to say, it's a full-BAB class that gains a load of abilities as it levels, from fast movement and weapon focus at first level, to the every five levels 'Raider Ability'. These raider abilities are laddered- i.e. if you choose (say) Mountain Man at 5th level, you can take Mountain Raider at 10th and King of the Mountain @ 15th. Or you can just take one 'level' of Mountain, and then take a level of sea-raider, or Plains Man, or Forest Raider, or take the ferocious attack option, which is like a weak rage. I still use the Barbarian Class for Rashemi Berserkers, and for certain Ork tribes, but otherwise, it's all raiders.
If you can find the book, I strongly recommend it, especially if you're a fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire books. There are a LOT of great classes in there (in particular the Knight, the Brother of the Kingsguard, the Noble, which is a great improvement over the aristocrat, and the Spy) and details an AMAZING wealth/social status system, and a really, really good Influence system. I paid a lot of money for mine new, but did so gladly, and feel that it was worth every penny. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 30 Apr 2009 00:26:39 |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 01:02:20
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Very interesting post. I want to point out that not all barbarians are bloodthirsty-mouth foaming-out of control killing machines. I believe it can apply to any close combat oriented character, that has a tendecy to anger, or perhaps being carried away be the fight.
Once we played a side campaign (3 sessions the whole deal) a player of mine rolled a psychotic rogue who sometimes snapped out and went berserk, so we have a rogue/barbarian. He was the slim short fellow with muscles as small as an elf child and whom sometimes was muttering things to himself his mind was clear however for he possesed a great intelect and his stare was that of a madman. He was not the optimized character but who cares? We enjoyed having the little lunatic around (To the dismay of my poor NPCs)
Another character was a Fighter/Barbarian, he was the knight kind of fighter, full plate, lance , code of conduct and one of his flaws (and strenghts) was that sometimes he just got carried away by the fight, it was a original RP challenge for my player to play such a character.
The last example i will post is that of our favourite Drow, during his Exile he gained some barbarian levels, thats a condradiction, considering Drizzt is a Drow Elf from a Noble house.(sp?) The "Hunter" made a good story, he saved Drizzt's life and he haunted him in the years to pass
What i am trying to say is that i believe the barbarian is a flexible class, he doesnt have to be half-naked nor stupid and surely his name can have more than 4 letters (Druk-Brok-Urgh) :-P
And hey he gives you a chance to throw the D12 (priceless) |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 01:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
Very interesting post. I want to point out that not all barbarians are bloodthirsty-mouth foaming-out of control killing machines. I believe it can apply to any close combat oriented character, that has a tendecy to anger, or perhaps being carried away be the fight.
SNIP
I WOULD agree with you; except that the class has several features which (as written) make it a cultural ideal rather than a job description (which is every other class): 1)Illiteracy- for some reason, to have a Bbn skillset, it means you never learned to read, which is cultural to the nonliterate societies that the class is trying to represent 2) the class skills are not consonant with a 'guy who fights with abandon'- they are consistant, however with the 'raised apart from civilization, berserker warrior' stereotype. So if you want to change the class, you can use it the way that you're describing, but not as written. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 01:45:29
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For a homebrew campaign world I'm changing the Barbarian class considerably by changing the description of text and flavor to what I image the class. Some can be 'Berserkers' but most are men/women that tap into their Blood Lust (new name for Rage) that gives them greater strength and resilience but is not a foaming-at-the-mouth mad man type of ability. I ultimately did away with the illiterate part even for the more 'savage berserkers' for I felt it is a rather weak restriction in the first place that can be replaced with just taking a multi-class into fighter class once and you 'suddenly' become literate. Besides the point, the class as is hardly is unbalanced and the Monk and Weapon Specialization Fighter class greatly out classes in damage eventually. And I added some more skills to their skill lists and increased the base skill points (people in the world are more skillful then in most other worlds so all classes got a boost to base skill points by 2).
The reason why I'm taking this route is again refering to your problems with the class. Barbarian was a term used by "civilized" people for those on the "frontier" edge of the realm when in fact a lot of these "barbarians" probably had just as complex and rich cultures as the civilized lands. I'm planning on giving them a name change as well eventually when I find a name I feel is appropriate for the world, because I want something that is definately not just one region specific name. The term barbarian could definately be still applied but that should be a roleplaying term someone uses not the name of a profession and set of skills.
Edit: A Song of Ice and Fire is by far one of the best fantasy books I ever read that had gritty realism coupled with it. A very rare trait, but I'm glad to hear they put a lot of thought into the game for the world. That fits perfectly with the raiders and reavers from the book that I imaged.
Edit note: Mixed up the title. Oops. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 01 May 2009 00:12:30 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 03:37:54
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| Funny historical note: The term 'barbarian' was used by the Greeks to describe non-greeks... specifically non-Greek speakers. They used the term because to them, all other languages sounded like they were saying 'bar-bar-bar-bar'. So they dubbed them 'bar-bar-ians' |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 04:27:38
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| I use Drizzt as an example: without assimilating into any sort of barbarian culture, in game rules he acquired a level of barbarian by giving in to his baser instincts and learning to use rage and sheer brute force as a fighting technique (among other attributes). |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 15:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I use Drizzt as an example: without assimilating into any sort of barbarian culture, in game rules he acquired a level of barbarian by giving in to his baser instincts and learning to use rage and sheer brute force as a fighting technique (among other attributes).
See that's just it: I LIKE the idea of the EmoDrow having a level of Barbarian, to represent the Hunter- but that's one of the few times I'd let someone multiclass INTO Bbn. Mostly, it's a culture that you have to be reared in, rather than a set of skills and knowledges to be learned. Which goes with what I was saying about not ditching Bbn altogether, since it makes sense in a few cases. Not many, but a few. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 17:46:37
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Pfft, Drizzt was emo before emo was emo. Emo kids should be called Drizzts. :)
But I feel you. It reminds me of people who think that being a monk is a matter of learning martial arts, when monks really have to spend years in a temple in seclusion hardening their bodies and whatnot for the class to make any sense.
Of course, the fun of 3.x was always the nigh-limitlessness of the class combinations. So if a PC really wanted to go from sorcerer to barbar in three simple steps and could give me a few good reasons why, I'd let 'em. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 19:55:22
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We ran into a similar problem while working on the Kara-Tur Project over at WotC. Although 'Gaijin' means 'Barbarian', it is technically applied to any foreigner, and therefore ANY non-Oriental class would be considered a Barbarian.
However, K-T actually has three differnt groups which would fall under the heading of 'Barbarian' which simply do not conform to the official class at all. There are the well-known Horse Barbarians (Tuigan), and then there are also the jungle-dwelling tribes of Malatra, and the Hill/Mountain dwellers of northern K-T. Although the Jungle and Hill barbarians could probably share a class (giving them seperate terrain expertise), the Horse Barbarians fall into their own category completely.
We solved this by creating seperate classes for each, but I really didn't feel that was an optimal solution. I would have preferred something more akin to what KotG describes, with many options available within a single class. I hate the idea of shoe-horning so many different cultures under one 'build', and I much prefer the 'replacement level' approach, similar to how a Ranger can choose between ranged and two-weapon styles.
Then again, I'm a fan of having only four main classes (or five, if you want psionics), and have everything else be different Feat paths from those. I hate the way 3e eventually became over-complicated and filled with redundancy, and my preference would be simple rules, lotsa options (Not lots and lots of base classes).
The Berserker Barbarian could easily just be a Feat-tree off of the Fighter class. Illiteracy is a cultural thing, and should not be part of the class. If someone wants a to run a barbarian concept fighter, then he could take illiteracy as a character flaw and then get some free survival skills in it's place. What's the need for a seperate class? 
You also have the Barbarian 'tougness', which could easily be turned into a racial bonus (take +2 to Con for the human free bonus under Pathfinder rules, or give it as a free bonus in lieu of the extra Human Feat under the standard rules).
I think game companies (so as not to single WotC out) make rules overly complicated over time, just to sell more books, when most of that stuff isn't neccessary if you build great flexibility into the system from the beginning.
Thanks for pointing out Game of Thrones RPG - I will definately be looking into that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Apr 2009 22:49:27 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2009 : 20:15:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks for pointing out Game of Thrones RPG - I will definately be looking into that.
No prob, man: Again, it is a stellar book- it is also HUGE... this thing can be used to knock out an intruder, no problem. The first 1/4 of the book is (somewhat inexplicably) a history of fantasy literature, and of FRPGing- it seems really out of place, but it's also a great collection of stuff, and added to my 'must-read' list. The rest of the book is about 1/2 background on Westeros (the setting of A Song of Ice and Fire which is cool if you're a fan of the series (and you should be) and the rest is a really good d20 game that does the best job I've ever seen of making powerful nobles playable characters. Again, I bought mine years ago, just for my love of the ASoIaF series but I'd recommend it for any serious RPGer as well- I've ported 5 classes (Artisan- replaces expert, Noble- Replaces Aristocrat, Raider- Replaces Barbarian, and the Knight and spy PrCs) to my Realms game, as well as using the excellent Wealth and Social Status and Influence and Reputation systems presented there. I'd also say it is invaluable for world building for alot of the same reasons.
EDIT: On topic, the 3 K-T 'barbarians' all fit into Raider nicely: the Tuigan are Plainsmen, the Jungle folk are Jungle Raiders, and the Mountain folk are Mountain Men. I hate to keep gushing about how cool this class is, but it really is that simple and flexible. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 30 Apr 2009 20:19:24 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2009 : 10:13:59
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| I agree about the barbarian that it should be a culture (many different ones) not a class. The system we use only has warriors, arcanists and rogues, everything else are feats, powers and skills. |
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My issues with the Barbarian
