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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 05:08:38
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In the real world, how long would it take to train a horse to the level of being considered a "Warhorse"?
How many horses could a trainer handle at a time?
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 05:30:30
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Several months, most likely. On the recent Lord of the Rings movie they said, IIRC, that they took a couple weeks to desensitize the horses to the crazy sights and sounds of a film set. You'd probably start training them somewhere around nine months and keep going until they become adults.
This is all just WAG's from a non-horse person, though, so take with a grain of salt.
edit: Asking around my fellow trivia people, the consensus is a month at least, just to get them accustomed to the noise, etc. Getting them to respond to riding by the knees would take longer. Since this would start just after foaling (getting them used to bearing loads, for instance), you'd probably be realistically looking at about a year. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 19 Apr 2009 05:51:34 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 14:51:03
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Hoondatha, I'll try to find information on the horses they trained for LotR movies.
It occurred to me that the training a police horse goes through would be similiar to that needed for a warhorse. New search for the internet. =)
If anyone has some experience, I'd love to hear from you. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 15:21:18
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There are far more things you need to desensitize a horse to in a fantasy setting then in our RW mideval period, like Magic & Monsters.
I have no clue about horses, but if you can find some RW data, you'd have to take that into account and adjust the time accordingly.
Historically, the few times cavalry was used against elephants the horses 'went nuts' and panicked. Now picture them against an Ogre or worse, a Dragon, who is eyeing them hungrilly. Also, with the advent of guns, horses need special training to not throw their riders when hearing a shot - what happens when they hear a Lightening Bolt?
Illusions also become a big problem - just because you were able to disbelieve it, doesn't mean your mount does.
Like I said, I know almost zilch about horses, but I'm looking at this from a DM's perspective. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2009 15:35:41 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 15:29:41
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Good points
You can't really train a mount to deal with a Dragon, or even an Ogre.
Dealing with magic would be costly. Just how many mages would be interested in assisting in the training of horses? =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 15:30:00
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I would guess closer to three years training by an expert trainer if we are talking about a western European knightly warhorse and at least a year for other types.
Stunt horses and police horses have some likenesses, but remember also that an ancient warhorse has to be trained to handle serious pain without panicking and (depending on the tactics used by the culture) to fight on its own. In addition the training is made even more difficult by the use of stallions. These are a hell of a lot more difficult to train than geldings and mares. The warhorse is a weapon and is trained to hurt people as well as carrying its rider, it would probably be aggressive to all but a few choice people like handlers and owner and the training would be long and difficult.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 15:35:58
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Your post makes me wonder if the mounts a Cormyrean patrol would even be "warhorses". Just how many horse trainers would Cormyr or other similiar governments need to have a well trained force of warhorses.
I'm now wondering if a different classification should be made above the player handbook's "warhorse". |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 15:48:27
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Every Cormyrian Castle and Fortress has a 'Beastmaster' assigned to over-see the care of the mounts (including non-horses), and he has as many 'stable hands' as he needs, depending on the amount of animals under his care. Larger fortifications usual have several beastmasters (such as cities), and there is usually one given the title 'High Beastmaster' who is given nominal command over the others in such a situation.
I think normal patrols have horses but don't neccesarilly fight form horseback. That requires special Knight training, for both the horse and the warrior. They would still require at least some training regarding panicking.
From all the FR novels I have read, I gather the animals 'sense' other creatures and ambushes before the riders do (except, perhaps, in the case of Elves). I don't think that is part of the training, but rather natural animal instincts, and the rider has to be very familiar with his mount to pick-up on the subtle clues and know when his horse is "getting nervous".
So even if a Purple Dragon Horse isn't trained for actual combat, they would still be assigned to specific soldiers and bonds would develop - I would apply this anywhere else as well. Even 'evil types' know the benefit of having a well-trained mount under them, and would probably treat their horse better then they do their underlings.
This infers two levels of training - one for day-to-day soldiering (patrols) and what-not, and one for actual fighting. You may even want to spread the three years Jorkens suggested into three levels, with the last being when the horse itself becomes an active participent (biting and stomping fallen riders, etc). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Apr 2009 15:50:16 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 16:29:12
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Talking to my wife, she has a history in dressage way back in high school. Unfortunately she's not a gamer, so never really inquired into the training from a gamer's perspective. =)
Anyway, dressage has its origins in the training of horses for combat.
I was able to pull from her brain the following tidbits. =)
You have:
Untrained horses - Aren't sold in the Player's Handbook, obviously.
Green horses - basic training, able to do the walk and trot. Essentially a riding horse
Intermediate Horses - Trained for dressage levels 1-5
Pre-Saint George
Grand Prix
It takes years of training to get to the Grand Prix level. As a horse trains up through the levels, the training makes for a stronger horse. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 17:55:23
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LOL - you just created 'Horse NPCs'. 
"Yeah... I got me a level 5 mount..." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 18:05:02
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| Oh the horror! Imagine an NPC class of Warhorse =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 18:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - you just created 'Horse NPCs'.
"Yeah... I got me a level 5 mount..."
Mounts shouldn't be treated as equipment, anyway. Fantasy fiction has a long tradition of ignoring the complex requirements needed to keep a knight's destrier in fighting trim.
Horses that can subsist on grazing don't make warhorses. A warhorse is a combination of a freak of nature and deliberate breeding that makes for a creature whose energy requirements are so extreme that it either has to laze around all day, eating, or receive feed which yields a much higher calorie count than grass. That means oats, among other things.
A bona fide warhorse is not ridden except in battles. A knight needs a couple of rouncies (smaller, cheaper, less strong horses that don't eat as much) to serve as his travelling mounts and carry his gear, maybe a courser as his alternate battle mount and then a destrier for tourneys and set-piece battles in open fields. These animals all need competent care, feed that is expensive in the long term and constant attention.
The lone knight on his trusty steed is a nonsensical fantasy trope. It makes about as much sense as a Formula 1 driver without a pit crew or spare parts for his car. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Apr 2009 18:18:00 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 18:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
In the real world, how long would it take to train a horse to the level of being considered a "Warhorse"?
How many horses could a trainer handle at a time?
I'll start with the simpler question, though it isn't all that simple. A dedicated horse trainer can handle anywhere from 1 horse to about a 30 or even more at one time. It all depends on what he's trying to teach, whether any of the horses have difficult temperaments, how hard he's willing to work and how good the physical setup he's working with is.
I'll note, however, that if you're training horses for cavalry, you're likely to have access to a lot of cavalrymen. In that case, you can use them for the training and you'll only need a few dedicated trainers for each squadron. Most of the grunt work would be done by the troopers themselves.
I'd say that a hundred good cavalrymen and a ten horse breeders and expert trainers could handle many hundreds of horses. Thousands, even, if they worked like dogs and were trying to teach them all the same simple drill (definintely the case for cavalry horses). In more normal circumstances, I'd expect one cavalryman working with each horse and an expert trainer instructing each group of 20-30 troopers.
The time it takes to train a cavalry remount in the 19th century of our world is two years. That's including everything, including teaching it to serve as a mount. In emergency conditions, this could be reduced to as little as three months, with the remainder of the training done on an ad hoc basis once the mount had been shipped to its unit.
This produces a horse that's used to explosions, can charge in formation and knows 'basic' dressage required by the time. On the other hand, it is not a fighting stallion that kicks and bites the foe on the field of battle.
I think such cavalry mounts are excellent models for the mounts of most Purple Dragons. Only dedicated shock cavalry should have warhorses that are trained to fight on their own. This isn't because it takes so much more time to train such animals (it can be done in much the same time), but more that the temperament of an animal that can be made into a fighting destrier is somewhat inconsistent with the temperament needed for a good mount to use in formation and patrolling.
To put it simply, a knight's warhorse isn't the same thing as a good cavalry horse. You're looking for a completely different bloodline, personality and behaviour. It is these things, more than the length of training, that distinguish a fighting horse from a cavalry horse that is trained to transport a rider who does the fighting. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 20:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - you just created 'Horse NPCs'.
"Yeah... I got me a level 5 mount..."
Mounts shouldn't be treated as equipment, anyway.
I'm thinking they are handled more like a minion. =)
Icelander, thank you for your great posts! Exactly the kind of information I've been looking for! =)
Special thanks to keying me in on the term destrier.
Do you believe coursers could subsist off of grazing?
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 20:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Edit: Apologies for the lack of Realms-relevant info herein.
The thread isn't really Realms specific. I feel your comments are right in line with my purpose of the thread. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2009 : 23:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Do you believe coursers could subsist off of grazing?
I am happy to bow to Icelander's undoubtedly superior knowledge on the subject, but I suspect part of the answer will include, "where and how many?"
Naturally.
More importantly, though, is what kind of work are you asking the horse to perform? A horse carrying an armoured rider and travelling 30+ miles per day is generally going to require oats to supplement its diet, no matter the breed.
There are exceptions, including certain breeds of steppe horses and the Icelandic horse, both of which are extraordinarily energy-efficient in that they weight much less than other horses of comparable strength and stamina, but these are generally going to be too small to carry a man with the physique of a knight wearing mail or heavier armour into battle. A Mongolian horse had no problems performing prodigious feats of endurance with a lean warrior in minimal armour on its back, but it would be stretching its capabilities to expect it to carry a knight weighting 200 lbs. and his 50 lbs. of weapons and armour.
My answer, therefore, is that the better performance and harder work that you expect from the horse, the better you should feed it.
If the character is small and wears light armour, he could perhaps profitably make do with a smaller and stronger breed of horse for the logistical advantages, but he should be aware that an Icelandic horse (or s similarly sized Realm breed like the Fell Pony or the Dalelands Pony) is ill-matched against a larger specimen of horse if he tries to make a mounted charge.
In general, I expect that Cormyte Purple Dragons travel with oats in their haversacks and have more feed waiting for them at guard outposts. Cormytes are tall folk and even the common Purple Dragon Blades wear much heavier equipment than any Mongol ever did. They'll be riding horses of a decent size. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Training warhorses?
