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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 22:53:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Except in that they have the money to actually advertise the game and expand the player-base outside the ageing corps of self-identified hobbyists. 'Cept they never did, just as they bungled the much cheaper potential cross-promotion with the Realms computer games and never introduced the SWRPG to all the Star Wars fans who read the Insider. And that'll be remembered as far more serious mismanagement than a string of clod-fisted PR.
When 3e was released, there was much 'hoopla' and fanfare - I recall even seeig a news-blurb on the major network news station in my region during prime (6:00 PM) viewing hours. I couldn't pick-up a Computer, game, or miniatures mag without seeing it advertised, along with giant 'carboard Regdars' at every comic shop and bookstore.
This time, 4th edition snuck-in stealthy, without any of the mainstream media knowing about it, or it being advertised anywhere (to the extent where they even shut-down their own two magazines that could have possibly advertised it).
At least once a week, I see someone over at the WotC boards - who have been away from the game for awhile - hearing about 4e only now and going to the sight to find out what it's all about! There is usually much crying, screaming, and shouting... and we all commiserate... and then wait around for the next "What have they done?!" thread. 
The media-blitz that WotC pulled when 3e was announced was incredible, and it went a long way to giving the hobby a much-needed shot-in-the-arm. WotC was still a small-enough comapny to understand the need to promote a product and create buzz.
The guys currently making the decisions at the WotC branch of Hasbro are so incompetent and out-of-touch with their target audience that it amazes me that the company manages to stay in business. You release an entire new edition of product, don't build-up hype for it - keeping it a secret through most of it's production cycle, announce it in the worst way possible, give conflicting information, and then don't deliver on more then half your promises?
That was a recipe for disaster from the get-go. There is no way D&D will ever meet 'the numbers' Hasbro demands, and they think by cutting back on everything they can maintain profitability. All they are doing is getting folks disgusted, and at this point they are just running the IP into the ground and milking it for all its worth before it dies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Apr 2009 22:55:48 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 23:06:49
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| I got back into D&D, and the Realms, when I heard about Fourth Edition on All Things Considered on NPR. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 01:48:57
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i thought this was the most telling stat i've seen in a long time:
quote:
Although, as it stands right now {4/8/2009 on Amazon}, the 3.5 PHB is ranked #2979 and the 4e PHB is ranked #2666!
YEARS later people are almost buying the 3.5 PHB as much as the 4e
that's frikkin awesome, hopefully we are looking at Hasbro selling DnD in the very near future |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 01:50:45
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| i also wonder if you add 3e AND 3.5e PHB's combined if you have more sales than 4e? |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 01:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I got back into D&D, and the Realms, when I heard about Fourth Edition on All Things Considered on NPR.
I think that was the only place beside here and wizards that I heardanything about 4e.
Counting my wife, grandmother and myself, you are only the forth person I know who listens to that show. Sad but true, and not sure if that means we are in the mainstram or not  |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 02:16:28
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| This just makes me mad. Now I have no legal way of getting my hands on a lot of the older materials that I'm missing without waiting for someone to put it up on eBay for a reasonable price. I was prepared to buy a lot of the material that I don't have on PDF's, which would be profitable for WotC, but they're shooting themselves in the foot by preventing younger fans from getting that stuff. I know that there isn't a great demand for it, but money is money and they just took away a source of money and made me madder at them in one fell swoop. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 05:02:09
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Not to derail, but I really can't stand people saying 4E is doing well because "the PHB is in its 3rd printing" and the "PHB2 is now on its 2nd printing".
Last I checked, they stated they will never give exact sales numbers. Third printing? Second printing? What does that even mean? Without sales numbers, those words are meaningless. For all I know, they could've only printed 10 copies of the PHB, sold out, sold another 100, sold out and sold another 1,000. That's 3 printings. That, in no way, indicates a success. Heck, without exact numbers, whose to say they even sold out in the first place? Corporations are master deceivers. They have to be, to gain profit. There's no other way. There's no such thing as an "honest" corporation.
On to the subject at hand, I believe this sudden change in tactics with PDFs and the unsubstantiated-finger pointing at piracy as the cause of their problems is something WotC came up with to really say "We screwed up with 4E, sales are really bad, expectations worse, let's save face and attack something else for its problems." This piracy-blame and lawsuits for "damaging the company's profits" is followed by the PHB2 SOLD OUT! Most of the lawsuits should definitely be dropped after seeing that, they have no proof of damage at all.
They're in a losing battle. All I see coming from WotC's end is pure, pitiful, and utter desperation. 4E is tanking. I don't need to see numbers to see that. It's been one year and the fanbase is still split down the middle on the issue, many 4E players are disenchanted with the edition already, and I have yet to meet anyone that even plays it. Heck, I've recently visited my former LGS and saw a crowd playing 3.5 edition. I ask "I thought you guys moved on to the cool new, 4E?" All I received were rolled eyes, scoffs, and mutterings. One guy coherently managed to say to me with a straight face,"I like my MMOs the way they are now, not the way WotC tries to make them."
Burn.
I turn to the owner of the store, who proceeded with,"4th Edition is one huge joke. Don't believe what you hear from WotC." This the same guy who defended 4E since its announcement and ran one for awhile. (could've just been promoting a product to get sales, of course, but I believe he was also sincere about it).
This is just my opinion. I'm not trying to start an edition war, I am saying simply that something is terribly wrong at WotC. Terribly. And I will bet my life that piracy has barely, if anything, to do with it at all. My only logical conclusion is 4E is not meeting expectations like they hoped.
All I can say is "Told you so." I said it the minute they butchered the alignment system and did away with Vancian magic. LOL Not that it made for a bad edition, just that if you want a successful upgrade to a new edition of a classic game you NEVER kill sacred cows...ever. You can find ways to work around it or make it more fun or exciting or different...but never kill it off. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 05:06:52
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However, just to play Devil's Advocate, anecdotal evidence is what it is. My friend, who owns a game store, only consistently sells 4E product of all of the RPGs that he has on his shelf. He knows if he orders 4E stuff it will sell, and he can't make that same claim about any other RPG, except perhaps his Star Wars products.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 05:24:14
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Most consumers aren't very bright - just because a lot of people are buying something doesn't mean that a lot of people are enjoying it.
Not that WotC cares if they are enjoying it. In fact, their current business model is designed around people getting bored of the current offerrings as quick as possible (so they can buy next year's setting, PHB, DMG, MM, etc, etc...)
They learned their mistake when 3e wouldn't roll over and die - they don't ever want to produce anything that good again. 'Planned Obsolescence' is key. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2009 18:38:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 07:21:34
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| Okay, we're getting back into that area where we're deciding what the motivations for certain decisions were. Lacking solid, concrete evidence, we need to shy away from stating opinions and theories as if they were fact. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 07:22:26
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Like the auto industry learned after the Model T.
CEO - Don't ever make a car that well ever again! I want it to break down to make them spend more money with us!
Engineer - You want me to make a car that breaks down?!
CEO - Yup, now get on it!
Engineer - That's a first!
Little did we know it was just the beginning trend of business today...
Edit: Er, sorry Wooly posted before I saw yours. Remove the post if you need to. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 14 Apr 2009 07:26:21 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 11:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Most consumers aren't very bright - just because a lot of people are buying something doesn't mean that a lot of people are enjying it.
Then I could make the same assumption towards 3ed. or any other edition. I think its a little more to it than that.
But any way you look at it I think WoTC are gambling a bit here when it comes to costumer relations.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
However, just to play Devil's Advocate, anecdotal evidence is what it is. My friend, who owns a game store, only consistently sells 4E product of all of the RPGs that he has on his shelf. He knows if he orders 4E stuff it will sell, and he can't make that same claim about any other RPG, except perhaps his Star Wars products.
Anecdotal schmanecdotal... don't try to use fancy words with us, Knight!
No matter what store owners say, 4E *will* fail epicly!
(I'm kidding, of course...) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 14 Apr 2009 12:12:55 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
It *might* also be due to their 'setting-per-year'-policy, i.e. that they won't be "competing" against 3E Eberron material this year, 2E Dark Sun material next year, Greyhawk material in 2011, and so on (note: the possible release dates for Dark Sun and Greyhawk are not officially announced yet; this is just speculation).
That still doesn't explain why setting-neutral stuff was pulled. Or why there are still 36 FR products on the Wizards downloads page, along with some stuff for other settings.
Hmmm... I actually forgot about that. Maybe they did, too? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 12:34:47
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| Well, its probably hard to cry piracy when you're the one offering it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 13:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Well, its probably hard to cry piracy when you're the one offering it.
Huh? Are you saying WotC was somehow encouraging piracy? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 13:29:17
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| Not really, but one of the things i'd heard was the perception that other people offering the pdfs was opening up their IP to piracy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 13:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Not really, but one of the things i'd heard was the perception that other people offering the pdfs was opening up their IP to piracy.
That's like suggesting since Chevrolet is selling cars thru dealers, they're encouraging people to steal them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 14:27:53
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Thanks, Wooly. Good points.
Christopher
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, we're getting back into that area where we're deciding what the motivations for certain decisions were. Lacking solid, concrete evidence, we need to shy away from stating opinions and theories as if they were fact.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 15:00:48
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I still can't belive Wizards offered one of Paul's books as a free download. But I am glad they did.
Seems like they are sending mixed signals though.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 16:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Not really, but one of the things i'd heard was the perception that other people offering the pdfs was opening up their IP to piracy.
That's like suggesting since Chevrolet is selling cars thru dealers, they're encouraging people to steal them.
Not really, as resale of cars has become a part of accepted culture. Resale of digital media hasn't in the eyes of the publishers, the tendency for people to share the PDFs they acquired from Paizo or RPGNow are what Wizards considers piracy, as they have no revenue from these. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 16:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Not really, but one of the things i'd heard was the perception that other people offering the pdfs was opening up their IP to piracy.
That's like suggesting since Chevrolet is selling cars thru dealers, they're encouraging people to steal them.
Not really, as resale of cars has become a part of accepted culture. Resale of digital media hasn't in the eyes of the publishers, the tendency for people to share the PDFs they acquired from Paizo or RPGNow are what Wizards considers piracy, as they have no revenue from these.
to be fair.....you can't cut and paste yourself a Corvette either!
So it's not really possible to compare digital piracy with Cars, but I will give the Wooly one bonus points for trying!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 16:56:26
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Digital media is it's very own beast that no one ever saw coming. You can purchase anything and resell it, *except* for digital media, since you're selling a copy and not the original, thus becoming a competitor of the very company you purchased it from.
Also, since DM has such a low 'face-value' because of the fact it is so easily copied, it is easy to understand *why* sharing such files has become commonplace in this day and age. Who hasn't burned a disc of music for a friend or 'loaned' a pdf to a fellow gamer for a campaign? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 16:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Not really, but one of the things i'd heard was the perception that other people offering the pdfs was opening up their IP to piracy.
That's like suggesting since Chevrolet is selling cars thru dealers, they're encouraging people to steal them.
Not really, as resale of cars has become a part of accepted culture. Resale of digital media hasn't in the eyes of the publishers, the tendency for people to share the PDFs they acquired from Paizo or RPGNow are what Wizards considers piracy, as they have no revenue from these.
to be fair.....you can't cut and paste yourself a Corvette either!
So it's not really possible to compare digital piracy with Cars, but I will give the Wooly one bonus points for trying!!
I'm just saying that offering something for sale is not encouraging its piracy. Anything bought can be resold, even if no one ever thinks it's going to be resold. Print media is often resold, and some authors do speak out against the idea of buying used books instead of buying them new. The only difference is that it's easier to copy digital media as opposed to non-digital.
And not offering digital media at all means no revenue -- offering some for sale, even if it's pirated, does generate revenue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Apr 2009 16:59:35 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 18:25:48
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quote:
They learned their mistake when 3e wouldn't roll over and die - they don't ever want to produce anything that good again. 'Planned Obsolescence' is key.
Please, 1st edition was around for 11 years before 2nd came about and it (1st ed) is still going strong. The only thing they did good with 3rd was to make it so they could constantly put out more crunch books that people felt obligated to buy since they were "canon". Better business model, worse game. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 19:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
They learned their mistake when 3e wouldn't roll over and die - they don't ever want to produce anything that good again. 'Planned Obsolescence' is key.
Please, 1st edition was around for 11 years before 2nd came about and it (1st ed) is still going strong. The only thing they did good with 3rd was to make it so they could constantly put out more crunch books that people felt obligated to buy since they were "canon". Better business model, worse game.
2E did the same thing. Heck, even 1E had more "crunch" books than was absolutely necessary. I mean, was there really a need for the Wilderness Survival Guide? I'm not bashing the book, I'm just saying that WotC and TSR before them have always made supplemental books. There's nothing wrong with that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Apr 2009 19:07:59 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 19:40:07
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quote:
2E did the same thing. Heck, even 1E had more "crunch" books than was absolutely necessary. I mean, was there really a need for the Wilderness Survival Guide? I'm not bashing the book, I'm just saying that WotC and TSR before them have always made supplemental books. There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't know if I would call WSG and DSG crunch books. And let's not compare the 10 total 1st ed books over 11 years to the countless number of books in the brief history of 3rd ed. They were more like rules additions for a DM (ie not designed to beef up players). The only real crunch book in 1st ed was Unearthed Arcana, which virtually no one takes as canon. By 3rd ed WotC decided to virtually eliminate/neuter the DM and place all the power with the players, which removed the spirit out of Dungeons and Dragons. Sure, it (and 4th ed) have the name, but it's not the same game. |
Edited by - Apex on 14 Apr 2009 19:42:07 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 19:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
2E did the same thing. Heck, even 1E had more "crunch" books than was absolutely necessary. I mean, was there really a need for the Wilderness Survival Guide? I'm not bashing the book, I'm just saying that WotC and TSR before them have always made supplemental books. There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't know if I would call WSG and DSG crunch books. And let's not compare the 10 total 1st ed books over 11 years to the countless number of books in the brief history of 3rd ed. They were more like rules additions for a DM (ie not designed to beef up players). The only real crunch book in 1st ed was Unearthed Arcana, which virtually no one takes as canon. By 3rd ed WotC decided to virtually eliminate/neuter the DM and place all the power with the players, which removed the spirit out of Dungeons and Dragons. Sure, it (and 4th ed) have the name, but it's not the same game.
Yeah, and all of the Races of Yadda Yadda books and other 3E books were also rules additions. What does it matter if they're for DMs or players? Rules additions are rules additions. DMs can make use of the same rules players can... I'll also disagree that the spirit was removed out of D&D with 3rd edition. It wasn't 2E or 1E, but a great many people -- myself included -- thought it was a very worthy successor.
Either way, we've strayed from the original point, the whole WotC pdf mess. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Apr 2009 19:51:25 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 22:38:33
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One would expect Wizards to learn from mistakes, but they seem bent on continuing to piss off loyal customers.
I told a friend of mine the story about the pdfs, and he said; "Good job, now people who are willing to pay money for the stuff have to resort to piracy/downloading stuff illegally. What a way to prevent something like that..."
They won't prevent piracy by doing that, so there has to be an ulterior motive. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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WoTC/FR PDF's being pulled from Paizo.com
