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Originally posted by Brimstone

All of Wizards Share holders approved the sale.

BRIMSTONE

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Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell

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Originally posted by Brimstone

All of Wizards Share holders approved the sale.

BRIMSTONE

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That just goes to show... greed conquers all.

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Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

Who is "everyone" in this case? Are they now buying significantly more or less Wizards product because of this decision? What percentage of the active Wizards customer base do they represent? You mentioned public relations. If every person who has gone on record as seeing nefarious motives represents ten who feel the same way, how big a PR--or really, more to the point, marketing--hit is that?

Not to put too fine a point on it, what percentage of the people who are complaining were buying new Wizards products already? If all who were now stop, how big a hit is that to the bottom line? Is that supposed hit worth it in comparison to the perceived benefit forecast by the decision makers?

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Originally posted by Markustay

And if you owned D&D and the Realms, and someone offerred you $300 million, you'd say f#$% Ed and f#$% the Realms... any normal person would.

If you need to sleep at night, $300 million buys a whole lotta sleep-aids.

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Originally posted by BPorter on Paizo

I posted this over at ENWorld, but since the PDF debate seems to be going strong here as well, I thought I'd post it here as well in case anyone's interested.

In advance, sorry for the lengthy post.

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Like many, I've been watching WotC's PDF-pulling with interest. I chose not to ride the 4e train but still purchased older, out-of-print PDFs. I missed the initial wave of announcements and was irritated that some of my wish list had vanished, but it wasn't a devastating development to me personally.

However, I feel it speaks volumes about WotC. For the last 24 hours, I've watched the various posters on both sides and aside from the sheer idiocy in which WotC has handled this situation, I've also been struck by some of the assumptions being made - both in- and against- WotC's favor. While I have no insider information, these assumptions fly in the face of everything I've encountered while working in corporate America for over 13 years. I am a solutions engineer for a technology company and in addition to seeing the operations of my employer, I have the opportunity to have some level of insight into my customers who cover a wide range of industries.

So here's one man's take on some of the conclusions being drawn:

1. Lawyers Don't Run Companies - Lawyers provide counsel. Executives run companies. So the idea that Lawyers are passing edicts to WotC is pretty far-fetched. Lawyers can provide suggestions, can say "yeah, we have a case and can go after X", and will be part of developing contracts, etc. But an executive or executives make the decisions - in this case, WotC executives. Lawyers, may have written the GSL, but someone within WotC said, "yeah that's what we want". Worst case scenario, someone at Hasbro said it for WotC. Which brings me to ...

2. Parent Companies Don't Micromanage Subsidiaries/Divisions - That's why the susidiary/division has it's own executives. The parent company is supposed to focus on the bigger picture, not the day-to-day operations. I seriously doubt Hasbro is running WotC. For that to be true, WotC's executives have to be empty suits and that is a more alarming prospect for the health & future of the company than PDF piracy. The more likely scenario is that Hasbro is dictating targets that are unrealistic, and WotC leadership is making poor decisions in an effort to make those targets. I've seen it first hand with customers and my own employer at different times throughout my career.

3. Companies aren't evil, but they can lose their way - I know we all love some Shadowrun, but corporations aren't evil. They may be run by evil people but it's orders of magnitude more likely that poor choices are made to support a business plan that's not achievable. There are businesses that put customers first because they understand that there will be no company without them. There are other businesses out there that put shareholder profits far above customer satisfaction, employee satisfaction, or any number of other factors. #1 reason? The Internet boom. Many companies expect double-digit returns every quarter even when it's inarguably demonstrable to be unachievable. You know what helps drive that mentality? Being part of a publicly traded company.

I've also read the threads talking about the court cases and PHB2 sales, unsurprisingly, in Internet-land, people want to have it both ways:
"WotC had to pull PDF sales. The volume of lost sales due to piracy was huge."
"See how successful 4e is, they sold out the first printing!"

I see it as "Since every illegal download doesn't equate to a lost sale and since 4e seems to be selling very well, why the draconian reaction to selling PDFs?" There's a wide range of plausible scenarios that have already been debated in earlier threads. Only WotC knows the truth.

I know what I'm about to say will sound harsh and will earn me a WotC-hater label in certain camps. As gamers, we want to think that the flagship RPG publisher is made up of people just like us - and it is. Unfortunately, it's their job and you don't always get to make decisions or take actions you agree with at work. Sometimes you're ordered to do something, sometimes the decisions made above your head. But let's stop burying our heads in the sand. WotC is making the decisions. Put the credit, whether good or bad, where it is due. Cheer them for the success of 4e, but don't absolve them of decisions that hurt the industry or you as a customer.

If Hasbro doesn't like the decisions or doesn't see the results they want, trust me, they'll make changes. Of what type or scale I can't say. My belief is that Hasbro's role as villain starts and stops with the targets they're giving WotC.

Let's face it, folks, 4e could be a success by any objective measure in the RPG industry, and still be viewed as unsuccessful for not being profitable enough from a WotC or Hasbro perspective.

I agree with Stan! - WotC has dropped the mantle of RPG industry leadership. They've got market share, but there are several decisions that, although clearly beneficial to WotC, are not to the industry, 3PPs, or YOU the customer. Just because a company can do something, doesn't mean that it should.

Sorry for the long post, it's been kicking around in my head for a bit.

Lastly, a wise man once told me the following:
1) Never underestimate the stupidity of a corporation.
2) The only entity dumber than a corporation is a government.
3) The only entity dumber than a government is academia.

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Originally posted by Markustay


Unless one considers the fact that they want the DDi to be the ONLY source for Realmslore from now on.

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Well, I go the Gen Con Event Catalog from the site yesterday and just because I'm 'that' guy, I did a quick tally of the Dungeons and Dragons events going on:

4th Edition games: 40%
3.0/3.5/Pathfinder: 40%
DCC Sanctioned Tournament (4E): 14%
Other Editions/Rules: 6%

No wonder the debate is still so strong. If this is any indication at all (and it's not, I know), fans are still split down the middle for 4E/3E.

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Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

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Originally posted by Markustay


Unless one considers the fact that they want the DDi to be the ONLY source for Realmslore from now on.

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They're still putting out novels at a pretty good clip, Mark.

The Living Forgotten Realms campaign is producing a half dozen or so new adventures every month, almost of which (that I've seen, anyway) have had at least one or two interesting tidbits of lore (like the material about the social structure, prominent NPCS, and various gangs of Wheloon in the latest Cormyr module, for example).

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Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

As for older material, there are still hundreds of thousands of words of free stuff downloadable from wizards.com, both in the form of .pdfs of older edition print products and many, many articles like those in Ed's Border Kingdoms and Dragons of the North series.

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Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

DDI itself, of course, has produced over a dozen pieces in the form of articles for Dragon and Dungeon, and the long term goal of at least one piece per month supporting the Realms (and other worlds) should hopefully finally get ramped up in May.

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Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe

Will new print gaming materials set in the Realms ever be seen, and will the material that was pulled last week will ever be available again in some electronic format? Who would bet money against either? My suspicion is that the makers of Dungeons & Dragons (whoever they may be at a given moment) will carry on the same way they have since 1974.

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Originally posted by D-brane

What I find truly suspicious about all of this is that for so long now, a number of us have been suggesting that Wizards is simply wiping away everything pre-4e Realms. In other words, clearing the slate and establishing the Sellplague Realms as THE ONLY FORGOTTEN REALMS.

So by removing the ability for digital distributors to sell the older PDFs, like those for the 1e/2e/3e Realms for example, Wizards is furthering their intent to completely divorce the old Realms from the new Realms. And in the process, making it that much hard for newer fans to discover the true decades-long history of the Realms.

Yes, I know, interested fans can scour second-hand bookstores for the older print books. But most are either ridiculously priced or simply hard to find. So by doing this, Wizards is making sure that previously easy to find and relatively cheap FR source material, is denied to the Realms fan.

It's truly ridiculous. But also a clever marketing strategy. Through this move, Wizards will make sure that their Realms has THE place of prominence . . . and all at the expense of pushing both the old Realms to the gutter, along with most of the older fans too.

Way to go Wizards!

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Ironically, the same group of people that are learning about the Realms as new players are the ones that grew up with Napster and most consider piracy to be harmless. A miscalculation on WotC's part?

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Originally posted by Markustay

If 4e was doing nearly as well as WotC promised Hasbro, they wouldn't be making all these rash decisions. This has all the makings of a bunch of chickens 'freaking-out' and running around without their heads. The only thing they seem to be good at is generating ill-will.

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Originally posted by Faraer

If that's the case, though, I don't think it says much about the new game, or Wizards' management, more that Hasbro is just the wrong size company to publish D&D (and the Realms) with the RPG market the size it is.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by D-brane

What I find truly suspicious about all of this is that for so long now, a number of us have been suggesting that Wizards is simply wiping away everything pre-4e Realms. In other words, clearing the slate and establishing the Sellplague Realms as THE ONLY FORGOTTEN REALMS.

So by removing the ability for digital distributors to sell the older PDFs, like those for the 1e/2e/3e Realms for example, Wizards is furthering their intent to completely divorce the old Realms from the new Realms. And in the process, making it that much hard for newer fans to discover the true decades-long history of the Realms.

Yes, I know, interested fans can scour second-hand bookstores for the older print books. But most are either ridiculously priced or simply hard to find. So by doing this, Wizards is making sure that previously easy to find and relatively cheap FR source material, is denied to the Realms fan.

It's truly ridiculous. But also a clever marketing strategy. Through this move, Wizards will make sure that their Realms has THE place of prominence . . . and all at the expense of pushing both the old Realms to the gutter, along with most of the older fans too.

Way to go Wizards!

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Considering that they pulled all material, I can't see this being their reasoning. If this was their only reason, then older Player's Handbooks, older Dragonlance, older Greyhawk, and older netting-neutral material would have been left alone.

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Originally posted by Asgetrion


It *might* also be due to their 'setting-per-year'-policy, i.e. that they won't be "competing" against 3E Eberron material this year, 2E Dark Sun material next year, Greyhawk material in 2011, and so on (note: the possible release dates for Dark Sun and Greyhawk are not officially announced yet; this is just speculation).

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