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Originally posted by Jorkens

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Originally posted by Markustay

But I'm not referring to that worshipper at all (in fact, I've never even heard of him/her).

I'm referring to Ed's list of Forgotten Realms deities in Dragon #54, Down-to-earth Divinity.

She's listed as an active goddess, who is a combination of the Greek Tyche and Egyptian Bes.

Maybe when the real Bes arrived in the Realms, she had a throw-down with Tyche and caused a rukus (which may have lead to the split).

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A side note, but I just started thinking. I could be remembering wrong here, but isn't the temple in Shadowdale listed as belonging to Tyche on the Shadowdale map found in the Grey box? I would guess that that would mean that the decision to split the goddess happened not to long before publication.

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Originally posted by Jorkens
I would guess that that would mean that the decision to split the goddess happened not to long before publication.

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Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving.

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Originally posted by Faraer

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Originally posted by Jorkens
I would guess that that would mean that the decision to split the goddess happened not to long before publication.

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Tyche was renamed Tymora years before the decision to reinstate Tyche as the goddess from which Tymora and Beshaba split.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving.

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I think the most interesting question is when did the regional pantheons (Talfir, Netheril, Jhaamdath, the East, the South etc.) coalesce into the "Faerūnian" pantheon ...?

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan

The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving.

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I think the most interesting question is when did the regional pantheons (Talfir, Netheril, Jhaamdath, the East, the South etc.) coalesce into the "Faerūnian" pantheon ...?

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Rabiesbunny

I LOVE the risen sun heresy! I had a worshiper who went one further; since Myrkul use to be dusk, she was convinced that now Bhaal was waiting to be resurrected, and was going to show as the deity of dusk beside Lathander's light, since in 3rd edition there was ONLY Lathander.

In regards to 4th edition, that's just it. This is one of the only things that makes sense. Back when Myrkul was dusk, and Amaunautor was high noon, they were separate gods but seen as part of the same whole. If Amaunautor took his place beside Lathander, both would still be worshipped because neither would subsume the other's church by force.

In other words, people will still believe in Lathander, thusly, he still has worshipers and still exists as Lathander.

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Originally posted by Stout Heart


I don't love it brings sadness and sorrow to my heart. I like where the two of you are going with you ideas but a world with out Lathander just I don't know.

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Originally posted by Branimir

The Church of Lathander located in Southern California agrees with Menelvagor. Lathander still lives, and needs our faith to restore his power so he may assist his followers. We do not support the risen sun heresy. Convert today: http://www.facebook.com/TheMorninglord

I also agree with Wooly about the moon, Selune should have 5 children to represent every aspect, as that would create more interesting events in the future of Fearūn.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I very seriously dislike the idea of Lathander fading into Amaunator fading into Myrkul fading back into Lathander. It just doesn't work for me.

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Originally posted by sfdragon


by the way, what consitutes being a sun deity anyway???? domain or portfolio??

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-It'd be 'Portfolios', not 'Domains'. Domains are a 3e/Pathfinder mechanical thing, more or less, and primarily have to do with the mortal worshipers of the deity, giving the Cleric powers that are in line with the things the deity represents. A deity doesn't control his/her/its domains in so much as they are fictitious things, having only to do with D&D mechanics. Portfolios designate what the deity is actually "in charge of".

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

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Originally posted by SFDragon

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Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I've long felt strongly that the trinity of solar portfolios (day, dusk, and dawn) and their cycles of ascendance go back at least to the Days of Thunder, as the patron gods of the Aearee flocks were sun gods.

Krocaa was the god of the day, and in the primitive days of the Aearee tribes, he reigned in the sky and the Aearee soared. Krocaa is thus an aspect of Amaunator, or perhaps Amaunator is the human conception of Krocaa.

The mythology of Krocaa is well established that Krocaa abandoned his flocks and left for distant skies. He was supplanted by his son, Quorlinn, who held the portfolio of dusk (among others) and presided over the flocks during the hard times when the Aearee fell into slavery, first by the Sarrukh, then by the Batrachi.

It was a dark, dark time for the avian race, and Quorlinn represented the ideals that helped the Aearee survive their thralldom: sneaking, stealth, cleverness, trickery, acquisitiveness, all the skills the Aearee needed to appease, flatter, deceive, steal from, and on rare occasions escape from their cruel masters. Quorlinn's ascendance culminated in the terrible fimbulwinter that followed the Tearfall cataclysm that killed the Batrachi and blanketed the world in ash and ice.

But when the Sevenfold Winter ended, Syranita emerged from her egg, resplendent in the glorious colors of the sunrise. The Dawn Mother guided the Aearee into a new age, a renaissance that saw the Avian creator race take their place as the preeminent people of their era. In fact, "syran" means "dawn" in the Aearee tongue, and "itla" translates roughly as "brood mother," "matriarch," or "queen."

Quorlinn was still around during the golden years of the Aearee reign, but his worship dwindled and was all but extinguished as the Aearee-Quor turned to worship of the demon lord Pazrael.

Now can we really say that Krocaa was Amaunator and Syranita was Lathander? Well, possibly. They definitely held the portfolios of the Day and the Dawn respectively. Amaunator and Lathander may be the human conceptions of Krocaa and Syranita, or they might be mortals who ascended to godhood and laid claim to those portfolios when the time came round again in the cycle.

The Dusk portfolio has a history of changing hands like a hot potato, so it seems likely that Jergal (himself an ascended Spellweaver) laid claim to Dusk during some successive cycle after Quorlinn surrendered it. Jergal was not, however, the direct successor to Quorlinn; there were intervening stewards of Dusk.

I speculate that Krocaa, along with the day portfolio, probably had a brief resurgence at the end of the Aearee era, possibly as a direct result of the defeat of the forces of Pazrael and the Sharan rookeries as they tried to conquer their brethren in the lands to the north and west. Krocaa was seen as having returned, at least metaphorically, as the warrior-savior of the aarakocra. Krocaa was once again the primary spiritual figure of the Aearee, the soaring high-father of his pantheon... At least for the last few years until the dragons scoured the Aearee from the skies.

My assumption is that when the portfolio of Dusk again ascended it found its nest with Phraarkiloorm, the vulture-headed god of the Aearee dead and steward of the Fugue Plane during the Days of Thunder.

Note that Phraarkiloorm had earlier taken control of the Fugue Plane from the death god of the former aquatic creator race, originally an octopoid race that lived in the oceans and seas of Toril. The proto-batrachi were seduced by the toad-god Ramenos, who, suffused by the monotheistic zeal of their conversion to his faith, harrowed the Fated Depths, devouring the Great School pantheon. Ramenos used the power he thus acquired to fuel the metamorphosis of the aquatic creator race, as a tadpole transforms into a frog, so they could rise up and conquer the land as the amphibious Batrachi.

I am not certain of the identity of the Great School steward of the Fugue Plane, but a likely candidate is Panzuriel, the kraken god of Murder. Whether he also held the portfolios of Death or the Dead is yet unknown. Regardless of who held it, when the Batrachi turned to Ramenos, the Great School pantheon was destroyed or dispersed, and control of the Fugue passed to Phraarkiloorm.

As the dragons came to dominance in Faerūn, Null, the dragon god of death, ate Phraarkiloorm and took his portfolios including Dusk and the Dead, as well as the Fugue Plane for his lair. And so the cycles continued.

All this to say that the cycle of the sun -- each portfolio rising, reaching its zenith and setting again in turn -- is very ancient and goes back at least to the beginning of the Days of Thunder, if not further. The cycles track very well, one after the other, all the way up to the present day in Faerūn, with the darkest points of the Dusk cycle often punctuating the ends of great civilizations such as tearfall and the death of the Batrachi, the end of the Aearee, the end of the time of Dragons, the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath, etc.

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Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I've long felt strongly that the trinity of solar portfolios (day, dusk, and dawn) and their cycles of ascendance go back at least to the Days of Thunder, as the patron gods of the Aearee flocks were sun gods

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Gray,

This was fun to read.

--Eric

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Gray,

This was fun to read.

--Eric

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Originally posted by Therise

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really deeply dislike what was done to mash up Lathander and Amaunator. There are just too many things, from my perspective, that add up or combine to create really ugly implications about both deities. It all comes across as an overly complicated mess, and doesn't really improve upon what was known about either god. From a mythic perspective, it doesn't make much sense.

- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).

I think, honestly, what we have in 4E is a giant *fustercluck* mess brought about by surface-level thinking that seemed cool but really ruined both deities. Or perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers. If not, I really don't like the implications on several levels.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Therise

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I really deeply dislike what was done to mash up Lathander and Amaunator. There are just too many things, from my perspective, that add up or combine to create really ugly implications about both deities. It all comes across as an overly complicated mess, and doesn't really improve upon what was known about either god. From a mythic perspective, it doesn't make much sense.

- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).

I think, honestly, what we have in 4E is a giant *fustercluck* mess brought about by surface-level thinking that seemed cool but really ruined both deities. Or perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers. If not, I really don't like the implications on several levels.

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I have to make a correction, here... The idea of the the tripartite sun deity predates 4E. I'm obviously no fan of the 4E Realms, but I can't let them get blamed for something that was discussed long before 4E was ever announced.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Here's something even more radical for you all.

All 'deities' are are a single deific power source (some of you might call him Ao). When a worshipper "worship a deity", they are accessing a conduit to that divine power distribution matrix. Each 'deity' is a reflection that worshippers access the deific power source in different ways and for different reasons. Those ways and reasons shape and define the 'deity' in question, giving it its alignment, areas of interest and powers. That amount of power flowing through the 'deity' gives it a necessary amount of independent, individual sentience and existence for number of reasons - not the least of which is that the matrix (Ao) can't micro-manage every aspect of the distribution network.

Of course, the distribution network wants its matrix accessed. A lot. The more it is accessed, the more its power flows and it is therefore strengthened and invigorated (a bit like a physical workout). On that basis, the matrix largely concerns itself with only two things. First, that the 'deities' know that they are governed and controlled and not doing anything to usurp control of the matrix and second, that if some deities are not providing the proper flow of power, that alternatives are always available to ensure that divine power is called on and distributed. This is sometimes as simple as creating a deific alternative, or sometimes as subtle as overriding a deity and making it act as a conduit for divine power that if it it had its way, it would not provide.

Or something like that.

-- George Krashos

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