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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 15:50:23
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Sorry Menelvagor - I brought-up a touchy lore subject. 
I would say that not only is it possible, but I would even use that in my own game. My theory about deities is that they are uber-powerful beings (not true gods at all), who just happen to derive sustenance from worship - the relationship is almost vampiric in nature (although most 'gods' try to at least make it a sybiotic, not parasitic, relationship).
In D&D, we have creatures that can live off fear, so why not 'adoration'?
This means that deities will adjust their portfolios accordingly, or even 'change sexes' (deites don't really have sexes at all), or do whatever it takes to get more worshippers, including even masquerading as other gods (which is a neat trick, but one that could backfire). The greatest secret the 'gods' keep from mortals is that mortals actually have all the say - a god lives or dies by their hand (or rather, their heart).
So, it is entirely possible that some other god - I'm thinking Ra is the most likely suspect - saw their own church hemorrhaging faithful, and decided to start calling themselves 'Aumanator' and appearing to Lathander's followers and inspiring the heresy. A name is just a name, and it's a canon fact that Gods in the Realms go by many - they don't care what mortals call them (usually), or how they represent them in art (except for Lolth), so long as they keep sending the 'juice' their way.
In this way, we can also explain a lot of the time anomalies we see in deific lore - entirely different beings could have gone by the name 'Beshaba', or 'Aumanator', or even 'Bane' over the years. It also helps explain some of 4e's inconsistencies - some gods really always were those other gods; no-one 'absorbed' anyone else - what they absorbed was their church (and followers faith). There are several canon instances that support this - Chauntea has been worshipped under other names, and her and 'Earth Mother' have been different beings in the past, yet in the Moonshaes EM's followers are now accepting Chauntea as the Earth Mother, which was probably nothing more then a very clever piece of subterfuge by Chauntea. Then in the Hordelands they have an 'Earth Mother' type figure as well, known as Etugen... yet it is Grumbar who is receiving the faith from those people in lieu of Chauntea.
Mystra's another good example - she's been three different beings that we know of, and 'Clang' takes the place of Moradin amongst the Dwarves of Zakhara - even though the name and the god's portfolio sound more like Clangeddin (who probably started the church down there, but then had it stolen by Moradin).
Bane is a great 4e example - one of these deities (I'm referring to them as a race, even though they are a race of beings that are composed of beings that were once part of other races) must have spent some time on FR, under one name or another (maybe Xiatchu Xvim!), and saw the potential in the name 'Bane', and decided to use it in some other sphere. That would explain how we can have different Banes in different spheres - they are just different deities using that alias on those worlds (and as we've seen, other deities can steal these identities and usurp the church).
No-one really knows the True Name of Gods (then again, Cyric knew Midnight's), because they go by whatever is most convenient at the time. Ergo, your concept works perfectly fine under this model - now aren't you sorow you asked me my opion? 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. And this has been brought up before.
I've speculated in the past that the "Beshaba" reference itself may not actually be an error. Rather, it may just be an creative expression derived from Count Gamalon's reporting skill.
Actually, I was surprised Wooly didn't 'shoot-down' that strawman argument immediately.
Ages are always named by the groups that come way after the age occurs - naming conventions should NEVER be taken into consideration when trying to establish a date. 
I like Wooly's set of logic, and it works for me, and as for any inconsistencies that occur because of that date, see my rather long-winded explanation above - various beings can adopt the name 'Beshaba' and try to use it, and it may work for some, but not for others. Some other, lesser deity may have been trying to bring back the 'Tyche persona' to establish themselves and steal Beshaba and Tymora's Faithful. In fact, it may have even been the original Tyche herself, trying to get back the half of her church she lost to Murdane who so-cleverly spread around that tale about the split. 
In fact, the entire "Dawn Cataclysm" thing could have been just a great piece of propaganda started be the being who was Lathander to steal Aumanator's faithful, and several other dieites decided to 'jump on the band-wagon' and use it as well for their own agendas.
Hmmmmm... it appears I've gone ahead and done the exact thing I've been preaching against for years - turning deities into 'Uber-Monsters' that act like Malaugrym, but are composed of pure energy and absorb 'adoration' for sustenance.
I guess as long as I don't think of them as 'gods', its all good.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2009 16:05:04 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 16:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. And this has been brought up before.
I've speculated in the past that the "Beshaba" reference itself may not actually be an error. Rather, it may just be an creative expression derived from Count Gamalon's reporting skill.
Actually, I was surprised Wooly didn't 'shoot-down' that strawman argument immediately.
Ages are always named by the groups that come way after the age occurs - naming conventions should NEVER be taken into consideration when trying to establish a date.
Eh, I've read enough history books to appreciate the fact that this really depends on the author and his/her style. Some approach the subject matter from an entirely factual manner. While others tend, somewhat, more toward dramatic flair.
Gamalon tends to hit me as one of the latter, so borrowing terms from his own time to describe more ancient periods would seem appropriate -- so long as the point of the material was conveyed in a way he was happy with.
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 16:39:47
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quote:
I don't see it happening. Once Lathander started realizing he was losing worshippers, he'd do just about anything he could to retain the ones he had and to get the lost ones back.
Yeah, but he couldn't really fight it, as it was toted as a prophecy made years ago by his enemies. He fought it the only way he could: calling it a 'heresy'. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 16:58:43
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Thats why they are usually referred to as "Self-fulfilling prophesies".
If you say something enough times and say it loud enough, people will start to believe it (ESPECIALLY if you put it in print).
And I'll just leave that alone.... <biting tongue here> |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2009 04:55:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 17:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
quote:
I don't see it happening. Once Lathander started realizing he was losing worshippers, he'd do just about anything he could to retain the ones he had and to get the lost ones back.
Yeah, but he couldn't really fight it, as it was toted as a prophecy made years ago by his enemies. He fought it the only way he could: calling it a 'heresy'. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work.
Why couldn't he fight it? Sending avatars to major churches and saying "ignore this Amaunator guy" or heavily sending manifestations and signs to his faithful, while not doing anything for Amaunator's, would be a pretty clear sign he was still around. |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 18:40:03
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| I thought that the whole premise of Lathander's religion was that during the Dawn Cataclysm, he replaced Amaunator as the sun deity. Some (the 'heretics') believed he was going to return to the Amaunator aspect one day. But all agreed he had replaced Amaunator. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 18:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I thought that the whole premise of Lathander's religion was that during the Dawn Cataclysm, he replaced Amaunator as the sun deity. Some (the 'heretics') believed he was going to return to the Amaunator aspect one day. But all agreed he had replaced Amaunator.
The premise of his religion is rebirth and renewal -- his religion has nothing to do with Amaunator. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 19:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
quote:
I don't see it happening. Once Lathander started realizing he was losing worshippers, he'd do just about anything he could to retain the ones he had and to get the lost ones back.
Yeah, but he couldn't really fight it, as it was toted as a prophecy made years ago by his enemies. He fought it the only way he could: calling it a 'heresy'. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work.
Why couldn't he fight it? Sending avatars to major churches and saying "ignore this Amaunator guy" or heavily sending manifestations and signs to his faithful, while not doing anything for Amaunator's, would be a pretty clear sign he was still around.
Actually, in most instances, Lathander could have stopped it by saying 'no' to clerics requesting spells. Instead he granted not one, but two miracles to... I forget his name, but the Genasi Sunmaster that took over the Elversult Church, AND granted him an Epic spell to hang a new mini-Sun over Elversult. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 20:57:52
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Unless that was Amaunator who gave him that spell. After all, it was called Amaunator's Eternal Sun.
The fact is, Lathander must have existed in order to start the Dawn Cataclysm, and Amaunator existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm. To say that they are the same makes no sense - why would a god lead to the deposing of himself?
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"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2009 : 23:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Unless that was Amaunator who gave him that spell. After all, it was called Amaunator's Eternal Sun.
The fact is, Lathander must have existed in order to start the Dawn Cataclysm, and Amaunator existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm. To say that they are the same makes no sense - why would a god lead to the deposing of himself?
I don't recall it being written that Amaunator was around for the Dawn Cataclysm... In fact, I don't recall anything connecting Amaunator to the Dawn Cataclysm, at all. Assuming my timeframe on the DC is correct, it happened at about the same time that Amaunator died of neglect. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 00:31:55
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For some reason, my post yesterday got a trifle truncated: here's the whole thing, edited to include the name of the Epic Cleric of Amaunator from LEoF.
Actually, in most instances, Lathander could have stopped it by saying 'no' to clerics requesting spells. Instead he granted not one, but two miracles to Daelagoth Orndeir, AND granted him an Epic spell to hang a new mini-Sun over Elversult. This says to me that Rather than being 'dragged down' by this thing, that Lathander was a willing component in the changeover. Maybe he had a piece of prophecy that told him he wasn't gonna survive the next century unless he stepped down, or maybe the previous lore was misguided, and he really IS Amaunator, or maybe having only a couple of worshippers woke A. up sufficiently to grant Daelagoth spells on his own. But again, I concur with the resident Hamster-in-Chief that there's no reason for Lathander to take this lying down. Why NOT send an avatar or 10 out to set people straight? Again, the interpretation I come up with is that L. was complicit in his own 'death'
So, to answer your question Menelvagor, for the moment it's up to you and how you care to interpret it for your campaign. I strongly doubt that anything canon will ever be released to contradict you.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 30 Mar 2009 00:36:25 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 09:47:04
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Wooly, I quote the FAQ:
quote:
What gods existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm?
Answer: We don’t know for sure:
Tavis King compiled a partial list:
Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl(Mystra), Selune, Shar, Targus, and Tyche are listed in the Netheril Boxed set. Lathander must also have existed if he started the cataclysm.
And as I said, Knight of the Gate, the miracles could have been granted by Amaunator, not Lathander, as a way to increase believers.Besides, I believe we mentioned elsewhere that the gods gave their followers power for day-to-day spells every day, through the Weave, without considering if they were worthy. It would explain how in Road of the Patriarch, clerics of Selune which are obviously not doing her work can cast spells. With the collapsing of the Weave, the gods had to give power directly, and could thus decide whether to give it or not. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 14:52:45
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Well, since 4e says they are the same guy, and always were, then the Dawn cataclysm no longer even makes any sense...
But what else is new? 
I guess thats why it happened "outside of time" - its the only way the two culd have been involved in the same incident.
What we end-up with is an endless-loop time paradox. Lathander - a sun god from the future - causes his own existance to come-about, eliminating the existing sun god. Then that god - Aumanator - does the same thing and 'erases' Lathander.
Kind of silly, but its some sort of explanation.
The problem is, if gods have time-travel (and they should, since mortals can), that causes all sorts of other snafus. Shar didn't need to kill Mystra, she merely needed to go back and make sure she was never created in the first place. Any god could go-back and stop their own demise - thats why the whole "outside of time" theory falls apart.
Then again... maybe thats why it was called the 'Dawn Cataclysm' - Lathander broke some sort of cosmic rule, and all hell broke loose (literally). Maybe thats why the world is the way it is now - all of the changes wrought by Lathander's 'cataclysm' have been undone, and the world has gone back to the way it was meant to be. For all we know, it could have been the precipitating event to the war between the gods and the primordials.
Perhaps Lathander was a Primordial all along....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 15:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Wooly, I quote the FAQ:
quote:
What gods existed at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm?
Answer: We don’t know for sure:
Tavis King compiled a partial list:
Amaunator, Jannath, Jergal, Kozah, Moander, Mystryl(Mystra), Selune, Shar, Targus, and Tyche are listed in the Netheril Boxed set. Lathander must also have existed if he started the cataclysm.
Yeah, but since we don't know when, exactly, the Dawn Cataclysm happened, we don't know if Amaunator was still around. It's also specified that Amaunator died of neglect about a millenia after the Fall of Netheril -- which means he wasn't deposed. It specifically says he lost most of his worshippers in the fall, and that the survivors blamed him for not stopping it.
1000 years after the fall of Netheril is 661 -- still a few decades before my suggested date for the Dawn Cataclysm. Since the only number we have is "about a millenia" he could have been gone a century before that.
So we know he died of neglect. We know he was likely gone -- or nearly so -- at my project date for the Dawn Cataclysm. And there is still nothing that indicates he was deposed, or that he had any involvement whatsoever in the Dawn Cataclysm. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 17:13:21
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| The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 17:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving.
Ed's article indicates that Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar. So that means Lathander was established as a deity by 212 DR, a mere 500 years after the Fall of Netheril.
I don't know if we have any earlier dates for Lathander, though... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Mar 2009 17:21:06 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 20:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
The most interesting question is when the faith of Lathander appeared in the Realms. If I am not wrong, Lathander was already worshipped in times when Amaunator's faith was blooming and thriving.
Ed's article indicates that Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar. So that means Lathander was established as a deity by 212 DR, a mere 500 years after the Fall of Netheril.
I don't know if we have any earlier dates for Lathander, though...
So we're seemingly left with the option that Lathander's 'cult' may have started as a heresy of the church of Amaunator: His followers, realizing that folk thought of Amaunator as a hidebound, uncaring entity, recast their god as a creature of goodness, and were (given the state that the church of A. was in at this point, understandably) preaching a doctrine of renewal and revirth while emphasizing the benign aspects of the Sun. I can imagine such a doctrine (rebirth, renewal)would have been especially welcome in any Netherese survivor-states.
Also, Menelvagor, you keep referencing the 'prophecy' of Daelegoth: I think maybe you're taking that a bit too much to heart. When a devout cleric of a given deity says 'my guy is gonna win' it's not so much a prophecy as it is cheerleading, and it's sort of in the job description for a priest. The fact that he was (according to... ugh...$e) correct, doesn't make him a great seer, it just means the chips fell his way.
Also, also wik, To go back to the idea that Lathander (due to the Weave acting as an interface) might not have known what Daelegoth was up to with his little heresy when he was granting his spells: I can buy that for the casting of, say, a heal spell, or even a firestorm, etc... but a miracle is granted directly by the god in question and Daelegoth cast not one, but two to 'prove' the primacy of Amaunator. I can't imagine that Lathander remained in the dark on the subject, esp. since 3 of his other high priests were convened in heavy prayer to decide what to do about the heresy at the time, and only the miracles dissuaded them from excommunicating Daelegoth from the church entirely.
If we note that Lathander failed to 1) Send avatars or dreams or whatever to straighten out his followers in re: the heresy 2) failed to answer the direct entreaties of his highest clergy on the same subject, 3) refused to promote a new high priest following the ToT, thus dividing his church 4) Was known to be cooking something up a la the DC all over again just prior to these events and oh, yeah may just have 4) granted the miracles that convinced his flock that the Amaunator worship wasn't heretical, after all, then I feel that he was complicit in the ascent of A.
Why? He might have had some bit of insight into the coming of the Sellplague, and knew that he wouldn't survive it (his portfolio sense extends to any 'new beginning', and $e is certainly that).
Then again, whilst Lathander is noted for having the gaudiest temples and preistly vestments, maybe he had too much taste to live in the 1400's?
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 22:45:22
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Here is something to consider, and I brought this idea up before, but perhaps Amaunator was pretending to be Lathander as well as himself. I believe Shar has acted like other gods to gain their worship to her own. So it wouldn't be the first time a god acted as if he was a completely different god.
But let us go with the idea after Netheril that Amaunator is seen as an uncaring god and transitioned to become Lathander to be a more caring, benevolent god of the sun. Then he picks up all those lost Netheril citizens again under a different name and start worshiping him as a god of renewal and rebirth sparking hope in a people that had just suffered a huge despairing moment in their history.
As time goes on Amaunator just lets his old self slowly fade out of the picture by letting the Lathander heretics preach and cast miracles and "gain" his worshipers to Lathander's banner.
And perhaps the Dawn Cataclysm was Amaunator's/Lathander's attempt to undue the Karsus debacle, but was counter acted by Mystra's epic spell that she made to keep time from be altered drastically. Also say Shar didn't want him to succeed too, because then her plans for the Shadow Weave and the Shade would have never came to pass or the death of Mystra by Cyric's hand. Or Ao could have been the one (or one of his greater superiors) made sure no lesser god could alter history so drastically and barred him (or any other god) from just changing the past when they felt like it creating an event that "happened out of time" by simply erasing his success and only leaving the fallout. Perhaps, however, the DC succeeded but created multiple different prime material planes of Toril that have varying different developments in history.
The list could go on and on, but suffice to say, I think, Menelvagor, you bring up an interesting idea of what could have happened. If that is how you want to have it go down like that in your campaign it is totally a reasonable response. If I ever do DM/play in the Realms again I plan on having Amaunator come back mainly because I have the Netheril box set and I like having a god of the sun, not just of the dawning sun. Mainly, because I'm not a morning person any other time of day I like. 
Joking aside that is my thoughts of what possibly happened. Feel free to borrow or ignore it if you want. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 30 Mar 2009 22:48:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 03:57:21
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Okay, but we know Amaunator was dead. Not pretending to be someone else, dead.
And we know the Dawn Cataclysm was about Lathander being an idiot and thinking he should be in charge. There is no indication he wanted to undo or change anything that had happened in the past -- he was trying for a new beginning, a brighter day with himself shining brightest. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 06:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, but we know Amaunator was dead. Not pretending to be someone else, dead.
And we know the Dawn Cataclysm was about Lathander being an idiot and thinking he should be in charge. There is no indication he wanted to undo or change anything that had happened in the past -- he was trying for a new beginning, a brighter day with himself shining brightest.
Wooly, first off thanks for the clarification on the topic. I did know Amaunator did indeed die, but the Dawn Cataclysm is shady detail I never really bothered with since it never impacted the Realms I ran. What gods do doesn't really concern me unless it directly impacts the mortal realm significantly. So I only have a passing knowledge of the event from sourcebooks.
What I do know, however, is that Amaunator, in one form of another, survived, otherwise, his clergy/heretics in the Church of Lathander wouldn't have continued on. From what I know of Lathander, which people have admitted his history is etchy in the beginning, is that he is arrogant, an upstart, and has a tendency to tick off the gods with or without the Dawn Cataclysm. Your typical youth trying to break the system and make it better.
With my explanation I was theorizing that Amaunator might have pulled a Bane, for an example. He let himself die out reincarnating himself into Lathander, but became Lathander for real. A totally new individual of his past self to take his place and as repentance to the people that shunned him for not saving Netheril. Which is why he became a youthful god of rebirth and renewal instead of an old sage looking god of the sun that seemed distant and uncaring.
Then, from what I have read of 4th edition on the god Amaunator, Lathander became a new Amaunator by retaking his mission and name. I say he is a new Amaunator because his alignment isn't LN it is LG, meaning that in essence he is possibly a collection of both deities learning what worked and didn't work from each of them.
And I got the Amaunator was Lathander idea from the 4e Realms setting. They said it, I didn't just pick it out of thin air, so I'm sorry if you thought I was misleading. Do I agree with that idea, maybe just a lesser degree. I think my theory is more possible then he just was worshiped under a different name for centuries because of the contradiction in the nature of both sun deities.
That being said, thanks for clarifying the Dawn Cataclysm, I'll read up on it some more to not make the same mistake again. But as cannon goes for 4th edition (if we are saying WotC is the only one that makes "cannon" timelines and material for the Realms) then Amaunator and Lathander are one in the same as far as they are concerned. Again, I don't necessarily agree with that exact interpretation, but that is how it is via the WotC game makers. |
Edited by - Ghost King on 31 Mar 2009 06:41:30 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2009 : 11:40:30
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Re the change from Amaunator to Lathander to Amaunator. I see no issue with this. A major part of Lathander's portfolio is renewal and rebirth. So he is reborn and replaces Amaunator after the fall of Netheril and is himself reborn as Amaunator after his reign as the morning god 'reaches highsun' (in the tripartite cycle).
I see the tripartite sun god as a realms equivilent of the Phoenix, dying and being reborn to live again. Maybe Lathander had some sense of upcoming doom re the spellplague and decided to rise again as a more lawful Amunator to help 'steady the ship' against the chaos that was to come?
Just my thoughts
Damian
ps which leaves the dusk god - maybe he will only be in ascendency when the Realms is starting to go down into death as a planet/crystal sphere is slowly destroyed as the the sun burns out/implodes etc? (hopefully several billion years from the current date). |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 17:58:15
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| Well, thanks for all of your opinions. It was very intriguing. I think I will play it according to the theory I suggested. This will let a cleric of Lathander who's playing make a choice, and probably involve the characters in a bit of inter-temple war. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2009 : 18:38:29
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| personally I'd prefer just dusk and dawn, Amaunator is too boring, don't understand the point of this change |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 05:36:36
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I'm just going through all of Ed's old Dragon articles ATM, and I noted something of interest to the conversation at hand (although not the topic, unfortunately).
Ed had BOTH Beshaba and Tyche in his Realms at the same time! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2009 18:40:41 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 06:07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm just going through all of Ed's old Dragon articles ATM, and I noted something of interst to the conversation at hand (although not the topic, unfortunately).
Ed had BOTH Beshaba and Tyche in his Realms at the same time!
Yup, there's a cleric of Tyche in the old gray box. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 06:49:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm just going through all of Ed's old Dragon articles ATM, and I noted something of interst to the conversation at hand (although not the topic, unfortunately).
Ed had BOTH Beshaba and Tyche in his Realms at the same time!
*shrugs* The servant of Tyche may not have realized it was another deity answering his prayers. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 18:43:08
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Which still doesn't negate the fact that Ed had Tyche instead of Tymora.
Ergo, I postulate that the Dawn Cataclysm was actually the moment when Ed sold the Realms to TSR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 20:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which still doesn't negate the fact that Ed had Tyche instead of Tymora.
Ergo, I postulate that the Dawn Cataclysm was actually the moment when Ed sold the Realms to TSR.
No, but we know it's possible for dead deities to still receive worship. And either by being impersonated, or using the Servant of the Fallen feat, it's possible for dead gods to grant spells.
So knowing there was a servant of a deity doesn't prove the continued existence of that deity. Especially since we have a quote from Ed saying the same thing that all other sources have said -- Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 20:32:33
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But I'm not referring to that worshipper at all (in fact, I've never even heard of him/her).
I'm referring to Ed's list of Forgotten Realms deities in Dragon #54, Down-to-earth Divinity.
She's listed as an active goddess, who is a combination of the Greek Tyche and Egyptian Bes.
Maybe when the real Bes arrived in the Realms, she had a throw-down with Tyche and caused a rukus (which may have lead to the split). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 20:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But I'm not referring to that worshipper at all (in fact, I've never even heard of him/her).
I'm referring to Ed's list of Forgotten Realms deities in Dragon #54, Down-to-earth Divinity.
She's listed as an active goddess, who is a combination of the Greek Tyche and Egyptian Bes.
Maybe when the real Bes arrived in the Realms, she had a throw-down with Tyche and caused a rukus (which may have lead to the split).
A side note, but I just started thinking. I could be remembering wrong here, but isn't the temple in Shadowdale listed as belonging to Tyche on the Shadowdale map found in the Grey box? I would guess that that would mean that the decision to split the goddess happened not to long before publication. |
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Lathander, Amaunator, and the Risen Sun 'Heresy'
