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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 16:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And yet while it's supposedly true, it's still a big mess.
It's just messy an unnecessarily complicated and doesn't have any benefit for being "true".
I whole-heartedly disagree with this, I think the premise of the tri-partite sun deity is elegant and inspiring and full of roleplaying and gaming opportunities. The 'mess' is actually its strongest point, with different cults and faiths and dogma's all essentially worshipping the same deity but in different ways.
I believe that the Risen Sun heresy actually adds flavour to the Realms in a simple and subtle way that can be used or not as a DM desires.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 17:11:14
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And yet while it's supposedly true, it's still a big mess.
It's just messy an unnecessarily complicated and doesn't have any benefit for being "true".
I whole-heartedly disagree with this, I think the premise of the tri-partite sun deity is elegant and inspiring and full of roleplaying and gaming opportunities. The 'mess' is actually its strongest point, with different cults and faiths and dogma's all essentially worshipping the same deity but in different ways.
I believe that the Risen Sun heresy actually adds flavour to the Realms in a simple and subtle way that can be used or not as a DM desires.
Cheers
Damian
By all means, please explain how it accomplishes this.
It's one thing (for example) to have a meta-belief like "all of the culturally distinct war deities are really just different aspects of a single entity focused on war". That's an academic issue for sages to debate back and forth.
It's quite another for a deity within ONE culture to support divisive heretical beliefs that pit church against church, believer against believer, then validate the idea that his origins were actually from a different culture entirely and that his current dogma and history needs to be completely rewritten, not to mention his goals and alignment/objectives.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 03 Jun 2012 17:20:16 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 18:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise- if the original Amaunator simply "morphed" into Lathander, why was his dead body floating in the Astral for so long?
IMHO Lathander was a separate being from Amaunator, and I believe Amaunator was/is truly dead. Lathander was part of the Talfiric pantheon, and Amaunator was Netherese. As the survivors of Netheril merged with the Talfirs and other cultures to become the greater Faerūnian pantheon, Amaunator "died" from lack of worship as Lathander grew in power. It may have taken a few centuries for Amaunator to be completely forgotten, but Amaunator essentially died when Netheril fell. Lathander's worship replaced him as Lathander's faith spread from the Talfir region throughout the rest of Faerūn. Amaunator might be seen as "setting" in different places at different times in the same way that the sun has time zones, and the sun may have set in the East, while in the West the sun is still above the horizon. I believe that Faiths & Avatars states this process took just shy of a thousand years for Amaunator to be "forgotten" enough for his body to show up in Astral Plane.
I don't think the sun god should be thought of as a trinity. It's not one god with 3 faces. They aren't avatars of a single divine entity so much as a linked set of 3 portfolios, or offices, that can't be held simultaneously by the same god and that rotate in power in succession. The sun gods are not the same people. They don't really morph into one another. Think of it more like the presidency of the European Union, which operates in trios elected for 18 month periods with each one of the trio taking charge in turn as president for 6 months of the cycle. Although the Faerūnian cycles seem to last millennia (although the exact length seems to vary).
With the Faerūnian solar cycle, what ascends in power is not the god so much as the portfolio. At the end of his "term" the holder of the office dies or goes dormant or surrenders the office somehow. That portfolio then goes away for some amount of time. No god can hold it (at least actively) while the other two portfolios are "above the horizon." When one of the other portfolios "sets," the retired portfolio rises, and then someone takes possession of the office.
Not necessarily the same god who had it before, though. Just because the portfolio becomes active again, doesn't mean that the former possessor of it comes back to life, or that one god morphs into the new one. Lathander changing into Amaunator appears to be an exception to the norm, but more on that below.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- when other dead Realms gods are brought back, they do not dramatically shift alignment or purpose. Why Amaunator-Lathander?
Lathander had been around for a millennium and a half. If people can change why not gods? Lathander was always impetuous, daring, starting things but never fininshing them. He definitely had a little ADD. This may have been a sign of his youth. As he aged, probably became more mature, focused, less rash, more interested in the long goal. Growing up and maturing seems like a natural progression for a god. Is it so surprising he would change.
Consider also that gods are subject to the belief of their worshipers. This belief can change the appearance, portfolios, and even the alignment of a god. I actually think that mass belief of mortals can change a god's perception of himself, alter his memories, even alter his past timelines, even possibly change his blood relations, their realities are so subject to mortal belief that a god might change from a brother or son of a god to that god's father. Some scoff at this notion, but I submit that gods do not have an object reality as mortals do, that their reality is always subject to editing by a critical mass of belief. Which is why heresies can be so dangerous to a god.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- why would Lathander encourage either of the two heresies by continuing to grant spells to priests adamant about them?
Lathander may not have a lot of choice there, if they are acting in good faith in accordance with their belief about him. Alternatively, it may have served his interest to do so. Perhaps Lathander was encouraging these heresies. If Lathander was granting prayers under the Amaunator alias, then he receives the power of worship either way.
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Originally posted by Therise- why would either Amaunator or Lathander lie (or engage in significant withholding and deception) when there's no reason for him/them to do so?
There is a strong reason for him to do so. Lathander had been around for over a millennium. He knew the cycle was turning. At some point, the day portfolio would rise and Lathander's portfolio would begin to wane, leading ultimately to his death.
Note that Jergal had previously passed the Dusk portfolio on to Myrkul, as a consequence of which Myrkul eventually "died" in Jergal's place. Surely Lathander drew a lesson from this. If Lathander did not take over the day portfolio, then someone else would have. Horus-Re perhaps. Or even Cyric (the dark-sun). Or someone new. By assuming the identity of Amaunator, Lathander prolongs his life for another third of the cycle. That gives him time to figure out how to circumvent his impending death or break the cycle somehow.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise- if it's all "true" and Amaunator really became Lathander and then later morphed back into Amaunator, what's the point? Other than seeming "cool" as a morning-noon-dusk tripartite concept, which has no stated functional purpose religiously, how does such morphing help the Realms, its people, or anything? It's pointless, and deities never do pointless things (or they shouldn't).
I strongly disagree that it's "pointless." The cycle is probably deeply embedded in the mechanism of how the sun works in Realmspace. If you recall, the first sun was devoured by Dendar the Night Serpent. The first holder of the Day portfolio was taken by Death or Dusk, and it was some time before a new sun was reignited in the sky. I submit that somewhere in those events the cycle was set in place and has persisted ever since. Day is taken by Death, then Dusk rules before Dawn rises once again, and so on. It may have even been put in place as something of a "term limit", a check and balance to make sure that the solar deity didn't become too powerful and end up dominating all the other gods of Toril. It may even be written into the Tablets of Ao.quote:
Originally posted by TheriseOr perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers.
Not a bad theory. I can't discount it. Although, I tend to believe that Lathander simply assumed the identity of Amauanator, either because it suited his political purposes, or he underwent a natural progression in maturity so that the Amaunator identity fit him better, or because a critical mass of his worshiper base came to believe he had changed and so he did.
As Ed always says, you can never know for certain the truth about the gods. And even those things that people think they know for certain may later turn out to be completely wrong. Somethings about gods are just mysteries that may never be solved. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 19:27:05
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Gray, as usual you have a thoughtful and interesting response. If I disagree with any of your points, just know that it's more that I'm trying to explain my dislikes about the theories/canon rather than any of it being personally directed.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
IMHO Lathander was a separate being from Amaunator, and I believe Amaunator was/is truly dead. Lathander was part of the Talfiric pantheon, and Amaunator was Netherese. As the survivors of Netheril merged with the Talfirs and other cultures to become the greater Faerūnian pantheon, Amaunator "died" from lack of worship as Lathander grew in power. It may have taken a few centuries for Amaunator to be completely forgotten, but Amaunator essentially died when Netheril fell. Lathander's worship replaced him as Lathander's faith spread from the Talfir region throughout the rest of Faerūn. Amaunator might be seen as "setting" in different places at different times in the same way that the sun has time zones, and the sun may have set in the East, while in the West the sun is still above the horizon. I believe that Faiths & Avatars states this process took just shy of a thousand years for Amaunator to be "forgotten" enough for his body to show up in Astral Plane.
I have no problem with any of this. Actually, I quite like it and think that it makes a great deal of sense. It's the much more recent stuff that I take issue with.
quote:
I don't think the sun god should be thought of as a trinity. It's not one god with 3 faces. They aren't avatars of a single divine entity so much as a linked set of 3 portfolios, or offices, that can't be held simultaneously by the same god and that rotate in power in succession. The sun gods are not the same people. They don't really morph into one another. Think of it more like the presidency of the European Union, which operates in trios elected for 18 month periods with each one of the trio taking charge in turn as president for 6 months of the cycle. Although the Faerūnian cycles seem to last millennia (although the exact length seems to vary).
Based on everything we know about the gods so far, and how portfolios work generally, I agree that the "sun god" (if s/he exists) can't really be seen as an actual trinity (three faces in one single being). But I do wonder, why the necessity of having such an entity? What does it do for the Realms, or explain, that cannot be explained with individual deities in a simpler way? The rotating trio of a EU Presidency has a purpose at its core, a definite function. Why the need for this "sun god" that isn't a trinity but is instead a set of linked portfolios?
quote:
With the Faerūnian solar cycle, what ascends in power is not the god so much as the portfolio. At the end of his "term" the holder of the office dies or goes dormant or surrenders the office somehow. That portfolio then goes away for some amount of time. No god can hold it (at least actively) while the other two portfolios are "above the horizon." When one of the other portfolios "sets," the retired portfolio rises, and then someone takes possession of the office.
I think what you're suggesting is that the raw power of the gods that become involved with the tripartite portfolio will rise and fall depending on the ascendancy of a given "face" of the tripartite portfolio. In that way, part of the reason that Myrkul died wasn't just that he was cast down as a mortal but because he was losing power anyway because of the rising face of highsun. Once linked to this tripartite portfolio, your power doesn't just depend on your followers, in other words.
On the surface, I don't have any objection to the idea, but it still seems like an overly complex thing to have as part of the "system." Now I don't mind that gods die, or gain/lose power for mysterious reasons, but in this case it seems like there are serious disadvantages for any deity linked to this "thing" for lack of a better word.
quote:
Not necessarily the same god who had it before, though. Just because the portfolio becomes active again, doesn't mean that the former possessor of it comes back to life, or that one god morphs into the new one. Lathander changing into Amaunator appears to be an exception to the norm, but more on that below.
Lathander had been around for a millennium and a half. If people can change why not gods? Lathander was always impetuous, daring, starting things but never fininshing them. He definitely had a little ADD. This may have been a sign of his youth. As he aged, probably became more mature, focused, less rash, more interested in the long goal. Growing up and maturing seems like a natural progression for a god. Is it so surprising he would change.
I'm all for the gods being dynamic, but I also think their changes should make sense for their faithful. A mature Lathander with less ADD, less arrogance and risk-taking would totally make sense to me. But in this case, if the "truth" of 4E is actually true, we have him doing some pretty awful things to his most powerful faithful. Why lie to your highest priests, or conceal truth for ages, when it would make much more sense to explain things to them? Why go through the division of his church with two crazy heresies?
At the root of it, his support of the heresies bothers me a great deal. Now if some other deity like Cyric (or some demon or shadow fiend) had been lying to Daelegoth (sp?) and granting him miracles, that would make more sense to me. But the "truth" of 4E is that it was all Lathander, lying and withholding information, and acting super crazy and inconsistent... so he could become lawful and good? It suggests, on some level, that even the good deities are just "honeybadgers" that don't really give a rip about their church dogma or the mortal side of things, so long as they get their power.
quote:
Consider also that gods are subject to the belief of their worshipers. This belief can change the appearance, portfolios, and even the alignment of a god. I actually think that mass belief of mortals can change a god's perception of himself, alter his memories, even alter his past timelines, even possibly change his blood relations, their realities are so subject to mortal belief that a god might change from a brother or son of a god to that god's father. Some scoff at this notion, but I submit that gods do not have an object reality as mortals do, that their reality is always subject to editing by a critical mass of belief. Which is why heresies can be so dangerous to a god.
Based on the rules, information and reveals to date, I'm inclined to agree that this is the way things work for the gods in canon. In many ways, they're probably at the mercy of their followers "mobthink" and - as you suggest - even their memories and actions might be reshaped over time, or rapidly as part of a widely growing heresy.
But I've never liked this approach to the gods. If true, once a god ascends, it would seem like they'd want to minimize the effects of mortals' beliefs on their essence/nature. To do so, they ought to develop dogmas, keep heresies to a minimum, and make sure their clergy are teaching the right things to do and believe at all times. Heck, there's even a mechanism for punishing heresy generally: the god essentially rejects you for your heresy and you become a permanent servant of Kelemvor (or Myrkul, or Jergal, depending on the era).
Further, "mob rule" in real life (and presumably mobs in the Realms are the same) never works out well for maintaining order and peace. Why would anyone choose to be shackled by this very huge limitation? Seems like anyone after power would never actually want to ascend and become a deity, unless they're not very bright.
quote:
Lathander may not have a lot of choice there, if they are acting in good faith in accordance with their belief about him. Alternatively, it may have served his interest to do so. Perhaps Lathander was encouraging these heresies. If Lathander was granting prayers under the Amaunator alias, then he receives the power of worship either way.
That does seem to be the truth as revealed in 4E, but I think the implications for his faithful (pitting them against each other, lying to his flock, etc.) really just don't jive well with his overall goals as a good deity. Isn't a part of goodness rejecting power if you have to win it by being evil, horrendous to your own faithful, and such?
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There is a strong reason for him to do so. Lathander had been around for over a millennium. He knew the cycle was turning. At some point, the day portfolio would rise and Lathander's portfolio would begin to wane, leading ultimately to his death.
Those are all classic motives for power and survival, and they would fit well for me if Lathander had been neutral (or evil) instead of good. What of all the Lathanderites that, because of their dogma and faith, sacrificed themselves over the millenia rather than making a desperate grab for survival and power at the "end" and dumping their beliefs in the process. To me, it just doesn't sit well, mythically or logically.
quote:
Note that Jergal had previously passed the Dusk portfolio on to Myrkul, as a consequence of which Myrkul eventually "died" in Jergal's place. Surely Lathander drew a lesson from this. If Lathander did not take over the day portfolio, then someone else would have. Horus-Re perhaps. Or even Cyric (the dark-sun). Or someone new. By assuming the identity of Amaunator, Lathander prolongs his life for another third of the cycle. That gives him time to figure out how to circumvent his impending death or break the cycle somehow.
But at what costs, though, to his churches? It necessitates a massive shift in dogma and belief, and just seems wrong for Lathander. The "morning sun" portfolio that he's doing all this to retain, it just doesn't seem like retaining it at all costs is noble or good.
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I strongly disagree that it's "pointless." The cycle is probably deeply embedded in the mechanism of how the sun works in Realmspace. If you recall, the first sun was devoured by Dendar the Night Serpent. The first holder of the Day portfolio was taken by Death or Dusk, and it was some time before a new sun was reignited in the sky. I submit that somewhere in those events the cycle was set in place and has persisted ever since. Day is taken by Death, then Dusk rules before Dawn rises once again, and so on. It may have even been put in place as something of a "term limit", a check and balance to make sure that the solar deity didn't become too powerful and end up dominating all the other gods of Toril. It may even be written into the Tablets of Ao.
Possibly, but I'm not sure how Dawn-Midday would make one extremely powerful. The sun is important, yes, particularly if it's linked to Time. But that's actually Mystra's and not Lathander's or Amaunator's. The sun is also important for fertility and growth, but those things are balanced by Shar (entropy) and Bhaal/Cyric (death) rather than any holder of the Dusk portfolio. At least, that's how it seems to me.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TheriseOr perhaps the being that is now Amaunator was never Lathander or Amaunator and has just taken Lathander's place and is using Amaunator's name. Perhaps the real Lathander is dead or has been captured/restrained in some way, and only has partial access to his worshippers.
Not a bad theory. I can't discount it. Although, I tend to believe that Lathander simply assumed the identity of Amauanator, either because it suited his political purposes, or he underwent a natural progression in maturity so that the Amaunator identity fit him better, or because a critical mass of his worshiper base came to believe he had changed and so he did.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind it so much if it's revealed that Lathander spent much of the end (of 3E) under some kind of attack. If Daelegoth (sp?) had been misled, and if both things were truly heresies, it would make a lot more sense to me if Lathander had died and one of his non-heretical high priests ascended and tried to make the best of things as a new "Amaunator". Perhaps the heresy just went too far and gained too much acceptance, and despite all of Lathander's best efforts to fight off his enemy (Cyric?) he didn't win.
quote:
As Ed always says, you can never know for certain the truth about the gods. And even those things that people think they know for certain may later turn out to be completely wrong. Somethings about gods are just mysteries that may never be solved.
I wish that were the case, really. It's something I adhere to in my own version of the Realms. But in canon lore, it just seems like we know too many things that are in fact set in stone as truth because of how they're written. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 19:37:08
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| The Lathander change to Amaunator has me interested for more lore regarding it. Personally, I prefer Lathander, but Amaunator seems to have a more militaristic bent than Lathander ever did. I really am looking forward to lore about Elturgard. It reminds me of the Kingpriest era in Dragonlance, which was always interesting, because they were "good" villains as far as I perceived them. Hopefully we see some new lore in 5E or a DnD article sometime. ;) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2012 : 20:22:09
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| -As evidenced by the incongruities and seemingly problematic elements regarding heresies and deities permitting them, this is why I see, more and more, that mortals knowing for certain that deities exist, and possessing the ability to interact with them on a direct basis just doesn't work, realistically. As we saw in Road of the Patriarch, heresies or corrupt church officials cause so many cans of worms, when they are introduced. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Branimir
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 18:00:32
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In order from my last post:
Gray Richards, what you say reflects history but it does not indicate the presence of a tripartite god. Assuming I'm right, that only one god of the sun can be present in the realm at a time, perhaps they are also made to take turns in that fashion. And that in the realm of the gods, there are many gods of the sun, many of dawn, high noon, dusk, et cetera, that we just don't know about, who may be present in other realms. Perhaps Lathander is still doing his duty somewhere else now.
Therise, Lathander comes back after the Spellplague, so he can't be dead. But you make a lot of good points that I agree with. It makes no sense that Amaunator and Lathander are even related, aside from the sun connection their portfolios seem vastly different to me. As a follower of Lathander, I would never worship Amaunator. I personally will not play 4th edition at all, I'll play 3.5 till an edition set after the Spellplague comes out so I can still serve Lathander. This whole business with the Risen Sun heresy implies the possibility that Lathander is Amaunator and some in the realms truly believe it, but it is not specifically stated as the fact of what happened. There are still those in the realms that do not believe in the Risen Sun heresy, and I personally choose to believe that it is heresy and Lathander is perfectly fine waiting for his turn to come up again.
George Krashos, Therise makes a good point. Your theory is as valid as any but you haven't convinced me to believe in it.
Crazedadventurers has a point in that the Risen Sun heresy adds for more plots to play in the realms, it also creates long philosophical discussions (such as this 3 year running thread) but the tripartite system is still in question, it is not fact that Lathander is Amaunator, only some people believe in the Risen Sun heresy.
Therise, yes Amaunator came back and Lathander left, and of course the Risen Sun heretics say "See! Proof!" but its not actually definitive proof.
Gray Richardson, it took you longer than necessary to make that point but I get what you're saying. Basically that when the portfolio, the name of a god and what he represents, comes up its not necessarily the same being that held that name and portfolio last time, right? However this has already been discussed. For your second point, I believe gods can change and mature, but not completely turn into different beings with an entirely unrelated portfolio, thats just ridiculous. If he kept his name and most of what he represented, minor changes at most to his portfolio, and his personality changed, I could accept that. For your third point about worshippers somehow changing the deity, I don't agree with. The deity is an independent entity, they are who they are, people worship them for who they are, they don't worship just any deity and decide they want it to be how they want it and the deity changes for them, that's a ridiculous notion.
Lathander may have been granting spells to those who worshipped Amaunator, but it is pure speculation that he actually got anything out of it. I can understand the deities taking turns, I don't think Therise was saying that the cycle was pointless, only the concept of a tripartite god as pointless in this case. I don't have an opinion on whether a tripartite god is pointless or not, but I do think Lathander and Amaunator make no sense for being parts of one. A lot of your argument is to support how the Risen Sun heresy could some how be true, it seems almost like grasping at straws, any half-baked theory you can make to explain how Lathander could become Amaunator. Why have you not considered that he just isn't?
Therise, if Lathander is the one who granted those miracles (which I find debatable still) then he may have had a good reason, for example one previously stated, that he knew he would die during the Spellplague if he stuck around so he wanted to take off and let Amaunator have his turn already. Or maybe he has another realm he works on in his off hours who needed him more than his followers in this realm. Or perhaps simply it was his turn to step down and he liked Amaunator better than the other candidates for his replacement. I agree with your point about a good deity doing evil being contradictory, it makes no sense to me which is why I do not believe that its true. I don't think Lathander did any of those bad things, its just what the heretics want you to believe. I think that Lathander expects his believers to know him better than that, and have faith in him, that's why he didn't bother to set them straight, because religion is about faith, even with gods that communicate directly. |
-Branimir Draek
Please check out The Church of Lathander and consider converting today. http://www.facebook.com/TheMorninglord
Contact the church to have your sins absolved today. I can perform legal weddings in the name of Lathander. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2012 : 01:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Branimir
George Krashos, Therise makes a good point. Your theory is as valid as any but you haven't convinced me to believe in it.
 I'm glad, because I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything. My take on the Realms and their gods are so very different to all of yours that I wouldn't even contemplate doing so. Just presenting options. It's what makes the Realms awesome. Those FR fans who constantly search for 'definites' and 'absolutes' are often the most dissatisfied.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lathander, Amaunator, and the Risen Sun 'Heresy'
