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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 03:16:02
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Dude... funny stuff. The funniest part were the folks on RPGnet who so utterly cannot take criticism of their favored edition and were angered at this thing.
I, however, found that it neatly sums up most of my worries about the future of our hobby in the hands of its current corporate ownership.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 03:47:52
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the author of that, cab urinate on him or herslef.
thats right not funny.
th edition, bah.
Im not buying it, im sticking with pathfinder |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 11:14:59
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Can't see it but....to answer the topic of the thread....I was born ready  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 15:35:43
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Is that true?
In 4e, players get to pick the magic items they find, NOT the DM?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2009 15:40:40 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 16:10:05
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Not quite. I think he's commenting on the fact that the magic items are now part of the Player's Handbook instead of the Dungeon Master's Guide, so it automatically sets up the "I NEED THIS" mentality in the player.
Add to that the fact that there is no profit in creating magic items (before, the cost to make an item was usually half it's market value, now the cost equals the market value) and no XP cost for creating items and they are pretty easy to get. It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but I know the items 'level', I can't remember if they do so automatically or if the player still has to 'purchase' the level. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 16:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Not quite. I think he's commenting on the fact that the magic items are now part of the Player's Handbook instead of the Dungeon Master's Guide, so it automatically sets up the "I NEED THIS" mentality in the player.
Add to that the fact that there is no profit in creating magic items (before, the cost to make an item was usually half it's market value, now the cost equals the market value) and no XP cost for creating items and they are pretty easy to get. It's been a while since I looked at the rules, but I know the items 'level', I can't remember if they do so automatically or if the player still has to 'purchase' the level.
If that's the case, who is making the items the PCs find? Making the cost of manufacture the same as the sale price means that most mages are only going to craft items for themselves and their friends -- so the availability of magic items diminishes severely. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 17:03:35
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| The balancing thing I think for magic items is that you can only create a magic item of your level or lower (with the approptiate ritual and component costs of course), whereas only by finding treasure placed by the DM or purchasing at a store if the DM places them for sale can you get something that is above your level (e.g. I have a level 5 character with a level 8 magic armor, which is only +2, so not balance breaking). I think it works out pretty good. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 17:09:56
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Its not about logical eco and economic systems, its all about Phat Lewtz! 
Anyway, I think the guy who wrote that purposely mis-directed the reader, then. I have never known any (serious) players who didn't eventually buy the DMG, so that point is irrelevant.
I note most 3rd-party companies only release a Players Guide and setting Guide, assuming that the DM will have the core DMG. many of them include the core PHB rules in their player's guides, so there has been a move to this two-book variant for some time now (and setting-specific monsters are being put in the Setting Guides).
Of course, players also buy the setting guides, and they will buy anything else that is supposed to be 'DM only' material, so this problem won't be solved that way either.
Maybe someday Hasbro or some other company will issue 'DMing licenses', and only DMs can access the DM-only material. As much as that sounds like a control-issue, it might not be such a bad idea. I think there should be a test of some kind before someone can sit down and start running a game - I have seen bad DMs drive away new players just as often as good ones bring in new blood. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2009 18:30:55 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 18:10:39
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As can be seen here, the magecrafters have been subsidized.
Seriously, where is the profit in magic items? When you sell them, it's for 1/5 of the cost, so the fence is the only one making money.
@Alisttair: Can you use 8th level armor at 5th level? From what I remember in the rules, you're required to be the same level or higher for the armor to work... Although, my memory could be faulty, what with being old and all. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2009 : 22:28:34
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-PC's can use whatever they find. They are special you know.  Monsters can use stuff, its not as powerful. It has been awhile since I looked at those particular rules.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 00:34:09
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Ahhh... just checked it out. You can use any level of item, it's when you're creating an item that the maximum level of the item is your current level.
By the way, to enchant ANY magic item, you simply need three things: the Ritual Caster feat, have mastered (studied for 8 hours) the Enchant Magic Item ritual and cost of the item to create. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 01:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahhh... just checked it out. You can use any level of item, it's when you're creating an item that the maximum level of the item is your current level.
By the way, to enchant ANY magic item, you simply need three things: the Ritual Caster feat, have mastered (studied for 8 hours) the Enchant Magic Item ritual and cost of the item to create.
seriously? then I have been working it wrong. I have kept things around the level of the player, to keep it "level appropriate" , with maybe an item that is a level or 2 higher then the players. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 03:31:24
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| Oh no, you *should* be keeping things around their level! That's what they recommend. But it is possible for a level 1 character to wield a level 30 sword. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 05:10:23
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-That is when everybody is coming to get it. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 11:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh no, you *should* be keeping things around their level! That's what they recommend. But it is possible for a level 1 character to wield a level 30 sword.
I know this kid who soooooooooo wants his level 1 Paladin to have a Holy Avenger...like RIGHT NOW...  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 13:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh no, you *should* be keeping things around their level! That's what they recommend. But it is possible for a level 1 character to wield a level 30 sword.
I know this kid who soooooooooo wants his level 1 Paladin to have a Holy Avenger...like RIGHT NOW...
Give him a scimitar instead |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 14:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh no, you *should* be keeping things around their level! That's what they recommend. But it is possible for a level 1 character to wield a level 30 sword.
I know this kid who soooooooooo wants his level 1 Paladin to have a Holy Avenger...like RIGHT NOW...
Give him a scimitar instead
Two for his drow ranger... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 01:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh no, you *should* be keeping things around their level! That's what they recommend. But it is possible for a level 1 character to wield a level 30 sword.
I know this kid who soooooooooo wants his level 1 Paladin to have a Holy Avenger...like RIGHT NOW...
Give him a scimitar instead
Two for his drow ranger...
and don't forget the figurine of wonderous power. But it can't be a panther, cause that would be like copying |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 11:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
and don't forget the figurine of wonderous power. But it can't be a panther, cause that would be like copying
Yeah good point...maybe I'll just give him a really big black cat instead  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 14:08:43
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What is wrong with unbalance...
My mage, althou very powerful, has gone to extreme lengths to achieve what he is now able to do. A have used extreme amounts of gold and ingame time to develop and study and study and study in this library and that. The other players in my group have not. If my mage was not the most powerful character in the group by far, I would have been pissed! My actions, ingame, have been directed at gaining power that equal even the most powerful of the chosen. And even thou im no where close to that, I have the chance.
My question is this. What is wrong with the fact that different classes have different powers. Any class with the right feats and prestige class could become extremely powerful. And I dont se why its such a big deal in 4 ed that all classes have to be equally powerful through every lvl. Hopefully you choose a class based on how much fun it is to play and NOT to have power. I simply jusst hate that in 4 ed they have been balanced out, so that now all classes resemble eath other.
Please fell free to correct me if im wrong!!! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 14:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What is wrong with unbalance...
My mage, althou very powerful, has gone to extreme lengths to achieve what he is now able to do. A have used extreme amounts of gold and ingame time to develop and study and study and study in this library and that. The other players in my group have not. If my mage was not the most powerful character in the group by far, I would have been pissed! My actions, ingame, have been directed at gaining power that equal even the most powerful of the chosen. And even thou im no where close to that, I have the chance.
My question is this. What is wrong with the fact that different classes have different powers. Any class with the right feats and prestige class could become extremely powerful. And I dont se why its such a big deal in 4 ed that all classes have to be equally powerful through every lvl. Hopefully you choose a class based on how much fun it is to play and NOT to have power. I simply jusst hate that in 4 ed they have been balanced out, so that now all classes resemble eath other.
Please fell free to correct me if im wrong!!!
This is prolly the first time I've agreed with you... I've never had a problem with the idea that at certain levels, different classes have wildly different degrees of power. Particularly with wizards... Yeah, they're insanely powerful at high level. But they started off quite squishy, and if you can get close enough, they're still very squishy. A warrior may always be a tank, but while he can survive anything and devastate anything that gets in his face, his ability to project that power is limited. And that, too, makes sense.
I think the 4E "all classes are equal, all the time" thing is another idea lifted wholesale from MMOs, where you really can't have any one class be too much more powerful than the rest, or you'll get a lot of complaints. It's not common sense, it doesn't match what's in the fantasy novels we all read, and it hurts roleplaying more than it helps it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 15:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What is wrong with unbalance...
My mage, althou very powerful, has gone to extreme lengths to achieve what he is now able to do. A have used extreme amounts of gold and ingame time to develop and study and study and study in this library and that. The other players in my group have not. If my mage was not the most powerful character in the group by far, I would have been pissed! My actions, ingame, have been directed at gaining power that equal even the most powerful of the chosen. And even thou im no where close to that, I have the chance.
My question is this. What is wrong with the fact that different classes have different powers. Any class with the right feats and prestige class could become extremely powerful. And I dont se why its such a big deal in 4 ed that all classes have to be equally powerful through every lvl. Hopefully you choose a class based on how much fun it is to play and NOT to have power. I simply jusst hate that in 4 ed they have been balanced out, so that now all classes resemble eath other.
Please fell free to correct me if im wrong!!!
I think the 4E "all classes are equal, all the time" thing is another idea lifted wholesale from MMOs, where you really can't have any one class be too much more powerful than the rest, or you'll get a lot of complaints. It's not common sense, it doesn't match what's in the fantasy novels we all read, and it hurts roleplaying more than it helps it.
Thats my point, that it hurts more than it helps. every class has an advantage over some other class. And to take my wiz as exaple... If a rogue or fighter/ barbarian gets to close to me im dead. Some times the other players in the group feel left out, but that is not my problem but the dm's. He should at all time create a challenge, which is a challenge for everybody and not only the ever powerful wizard. It does not matter if it would be a 50/50 win situation if the wiz and fighter went head to head its about having fun and realizing that the strong fighter has his advantages and a wiz has his. A group should try to utilize that and use it as an advantage and not start to debate over who is more powerful. If everyone was more or less the same, why not just play commoner??? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 16:04:38
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Oh crap, I'm agreeing with Nicolai on character balance and power...
Seriously though, you're right. My opinion that your wizard is 'too powerful' is just that, an opinion. The rules allow you to build your character as you want and that's a terrific thing. 4E takes away the individuality of the character and replaces it with 'cool powers'.
And regarding handling characters that are more powerful then your other party members, it is the DM's job. For instance, if I were your DM, you can bet you'd see a lot of golems, beholders and dead magic zones in the game to let the other characters shine! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 17:18:11
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I just want to know when they're going to get rid of that hellish need to choose your character's gender. What happened? Did we lose a war? Why can't Wizards just TELL me what genitals my monk should have?  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 19:07:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I just want to know when they're going to get rid of that hellish need to choose your character's gender. What happened? Did we lose a war? Why can't Wizards just TELL me what genitals my monk should have?
That would be going too far. They can't deny some fanboys the option of "roleplaying" a female warrior in a chain mail bikini, with 36DD 18+ Charisma and personality that blends Xena, Paris Hilton, and adolescent daydreams. Those fanboys are too large a part of WotC's desired demographic, now. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 19:12:07
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I don't mind class balance... but as Nicolai points out, different classes have different advantages. All character classes should have their "equal" advantages based on what the class is, not based solely around combat.
But that's the thing, everyone wants to kick a lot of butt in combat, but they don't all want to be fighters, barbarians or monks... or even paladins and rangers. They want their rogues and bards and clerics and everything else to stand up to the same monsters that the butt-kicking fighter can. But wait, once we leave combat and those other classes have advantages that fighters don't --such as spellcasting, healing, improved social interactions, ability to find and remove traps, etc. Then what? Well, maybe everyone should have access to everything.
You know spellcasting fighters who can heal and find traps, clerics who can fight and find traps, wizards who can heal and fight and find traps, etc. Oh wait, that sort of is 4e, isn't it?
Honestly, if they want true class balance, maybe they should throw out the class system and allow character to perform in all ways with advantages based solely on taking feats granting improved results to in specific areas. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 19:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I just want to know when they're going to get rid of that hellish need to choose your character's gender. What happened? Did we lose a war? Why can't Wizards just TELL me what genitals my monk should have?
That would be going too far. They can't deny some fanboys the option of "roleplaying" a female warrior in a chain mail bikini, with 36DD 18+ Charisma and personality that blends Xena, Paris Hilton, and adolescent daydreams. Those fanboys are too large a part of WotC's desired demographic, now.
Wait, I think DC has that character trademarked. They call her Wonder Woman. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 20:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I just want to know when they're going to get rid of that hellish need to choose your character's gender. What happened? Did we lose a war? Why can't Wizards just TELL me what genitals my monk should have?
That would be going too far. They can't deny some fanboys the option of "roleplaying" a female warrior in a chain mail bikini, with 36DD 18+ Charisma and personality that blends Xena, Paris Hilton, and adolescent daydreams. Those fanboys are too large a part of WotC's desired demographic, now.
I hope this is magic armor 
http://www.goodman-games.com/5301preview.html |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 23:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I just want to know when they're going to get rid of that hellish need to choose your character's gender. What happened? Did we lose a war? Why can't Wizards just TELL me what genitals my monk should have?
That would be going too far. They can't deny some fanboys the option of "roleplaying" a female warrior in a chain mail bikini, with 36DD 18+ Charisma and personality that blends Xena, Paris Hilton, and adolescent daydreams. Those fanboys are too large a part of WotC's desired demographic, now.
Wait, I think DC has that character trademarked. They call her Wonder Woman.
Or Glory from Image Comics, for example. Each medium pretty much has that type of female character trademarked, unfortunately.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Are you ready for D&D 5E?
