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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 09:59:31
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ive got ghotr but that just refers to the earliest recorded history and the like.is there anything canon that says just how old the planet is.considering it seems very close to earth could it be billions of years old.
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go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 10:29:13
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it's possible that it developed like Earth
the other possibility, according to one of Ed's posts, it's about 70 000 years old, created by Ao or some other force |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 11:53:40
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| but if it were only 70000 years old how did certain species evolve so quickly.namely humans. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 12:55:44
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From what I gather of faerun, some if it's oldest races were brought to Toril by magical means (Elves, many varieties of humans brought over as slaves, or otherwise)
But other than that, I got no info. :( Sorry. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 16:50:49
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We recently had a discussion over at WotC that was along a similar line, and I wen about proving that scientists are NOT a whole lot better then primitive Shaman creating 'myths' about why forces in nature do what they do...
Whats they difference between the two, when both make stuff up based on their research, and they only stop researching when they have found a piece of data that supports their own personal theory? Both history and science are the product of a very large group of people agreeing on a single theory. They tend to ignore any evidence to the contrary.
Anyhow, rather then going over that fiasco again, and disproving the validity of every science, let me show you an article pertaining to evolution...
Evolution happens MUCH faster then anyone ever thought
And of course scientists will say they are the exception to the rule... but if their are exceptions, then its not exactly a rule, eh? 
Now, if you want to stick to the standard, excepted theories, 70,000 years is PLENTY of time for a world to have evolved humans who build civilizations. 30,000 years ago man was little more then cavemen, stuck somewhere between ape and human. by 10,000 he began to build the first empires. We also are beginning to realize (once again through 'science') that many species we thought had gone extinct didn't do so untill much later. They have found animal remains in the stomachs of sauroids, and sauroid remains in the stomachs of prehistoric animals (which negates the former notions that these things did not co-exist). It is entirely possible that many creatures didn't finally die-out until our first civilizations sprang-up, and perhaps as late as the middle-ages. This is what we now know, form what little evidence we are able to gather, and like every other 'fact' given us by science, is subject to change at the next discovery.
Extinct Prehistoric Shark Found
Toril is a younger world - many dinosaur and pleioscene animals still exist on Toril. Think of Toril as the world of 10,000 years ago, where humans have reached a somewhat higher level of sophistication due to the use of magic and outside cultural forces (all those other races).
Given that we now know primitive creatures (at least) evolve a hell of a lot faster then we ever imagined, its quite possible that the early 'eras' of our own history have been greatly mis-approximated.
I personally think Torils 70,000 is closer to the truth then our own classification. Don't believe everything you read and hear - as the great Albert Einstein once said, "Question EVERYTHING". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2009 16:58:27 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 17:39:25
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| There are also cultures and beliefs that humans have been around Earth for millions of years and not just 70,000. Granted, some of them are considered to be 'way out there', but since we don't have any means of proving them wrong, we can't dismiss them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 21:24:49
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| im certainly not one to take the establishments view on a history of events.but ill keep my views on that to the conspiracy websites. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 23:39:41
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| It might just be one of the many unkowns just like earth. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 23:42:58
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This is just a general "Mod Warning" to all scribes participating in this discussion. Let's try to keep debates about evolution and theory to a minimum. We're not here to determine the accuracy [or lack thereof] of the scientific records here on Earth. Rather, we're interested in Realms-theories on the subject.
We each have our own beliefs on the concept of evolution on Earth, and I'd rather they remain outside the walls of Candlekeep.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2009 : 23:48:55
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| Evolution? Pfft. Toril is a world filled in every nook and cranny with all kinds of living myth and boatloads of divine backing to those myths. I don't think evolution need enter into the discussion. But, even if you want to support evolution in such a magic & myth filled world, you can just say this or that god pushed evolution of their favored people/critter along. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 03:12:22
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Bah...Cyric will cause everything to de-evolve, so the age of Toril is moot. 
hehe |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 06:42:00
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Wasn't trying to push any sort of political or religous agenda, just trying to demonstrate how we shouldn't be too hasty to dis Realmslore for being 'innacurate', when it is entirely possible it is within the Realm of reason. 
Blame it on the Faezress... the raditaion makes everything mutate faster.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 10:53:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Blame it on the Faezress... the raditaion makes everything mutate faster.
Now you will have the Spellscarred to help speed things up as well |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 13:13:32
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| I don't think that the humanoid races needed any time to evolve. The ones that originated on Faerun were created by the gods pretty much in the same form they take throughout Faerunian history. The animals may have needed time to evolve, but it's easier just to say that Chauntea created them in their current state. Basically, real-world science doesn't need to come into it. |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 19 Mar 2009 13:14:06 |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 14:46:38
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| will there be dinosaurs in 4e.seem to remember them cropping in ring of winter because of the chult setting. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 14:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
will there be dinosaurs in 4e.seem to remember them cropping in ring of winter because of the chult setting.
Still dinosaurs but they are called Behemoths now in 4E. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 15:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
will there be dinosaurs in 4e.seem to remember them cropping in ring of winter because of the chult setting.
Dinosaurs have popped up elsewhere in the Realms. Like the Stonelands for example. Ed's elaborated on that somewhat in his '04 and '05 replies. The isle of Lurath in the Sea of Fallen Stars is also populated by dinosaurs as well. And, as I recall, there are plesiosaurs in depths of the Methmere. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 16:32:02
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Dinos in the Stonelands? Didn't know that... but oh man, oh man, the ideas that gave me.
Thank you very much.
~A DM who loves running the Realms in and around Cormyr~
And back on topic... 70,000 years is a fine number, since Creation Theory makes a lot of sense in the FR setting. After all, even some talented mages can create new life (Owlbears anyone?) than certainly the deities of FR can, too.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2009 : 23:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemel
Dinos in the Stonelands? Didn't know that... but oh man, oh man, the ideas that gave me.
In the interest of helping your ideas along, here's a bit from Ed:-
"Hi again, fellow scribes. Ed felt he’d been neglecting Wooly Rupert, and so has tackled Wooly’s query: “A discussion in another thread has mentioned something from one of the Elminster's Ecologies books: the existence of dinosaurs in the Stonelands. To some of us, this seems to be an odd place to drop dinosaurs... And, now that I think about it, I'm not recalling any other references to dinosaurs being there. So, in your Realms, are there dinosaurs in the Stonelands? And either way, is there anything you could add about their official presence there?”
Ed replies:
The Sage is quite right to remind us of my Candle04Page38 reply: there once were many dinosaurs in the Realms, but the dragons flourished by dining on almost all of them, leaving only handfuls behind (usually in jungles or other “good cover from flying wyrms” terrain).
The Stonelands are just such terrain, with their knife-edged ridges, deep ravines, caverns and overhangs, and exposed horns and faces of stone. So, yes, there are a few dinosaurs lurking deep in the Stonelands. Almost all are ostrich-sized or smaller velociraptors (bird-like, darting and hopping predators, of the sort featured so prominently in JURASSIC PARK: see fleshraker and swindlesplitter under “Dinosaur” in the MM3), though there are a few deinonychus (MM). They hibernate in deep, “warmrock” rifts (near earth nodes and volcanic flows) and hunt in cover, never leaving the Stonelands or racing along heights of land (for fear of being devoured by dragons; the Zhent foulwings, dark horrors, and other aerial steeds remind the dim-witted dinosaurs of the “death from above” that they now instinctively fear).
So saith Ed, who will recall Torm trying to interest Jhessail in a skewer of dinosaur steaks that she said VERY rude things about. Even Rathan, with the aid of much wine, downed them only with difficulty, finding them “tough, and with a curious dead-mushrooms taste.”
love to all,
THO"
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 00:29:48
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Dinos in the Stonelands and on an island in the Sea of Fallen Stars?
How much trouble could someone get in for transporting dinos into/through Cormyr? I mean, they could be considered quite dangerous to the citizens of the kingdom if they were to bust loose in transit... but I could see someone trying to make a profit off them (creating dino zoos, dino hunts, dino dinners, etc); and where there's profit to be made, there's potential to transport (can you smuggle something big as a dino?) things illegally. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 00:46:05
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I don't think you could transport any from that island - IIRC, its not so much that the island has dinos, as it is that the entire island is time-portal to an earlier time in the Realms.
If I were ruling on something like that, I would say that all that 'time' catches up to any critters that leave. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 01:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think you could transport any from that island - IIRC, its not so much that the island has dinos, as it is that the entire island is time-portal to an earlier time in the Realms.
Not exactly. There are sea caves in the cliffs of the isle that have "time-portals" which connect to the past of Toril.
quote:
If I were ruling on something like that, I would say that all that 'time' catches up to any critters that leave.
Or, perhaps, the portals are two-way access points which allow some dinosaurs to occasionally pass through from the opposite side and enter onto Lurath.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 01:36:47
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Here's the old quote from Ed about dinosaurs in the Stonelands:
quote:
Hi again, fellow scribes. Ed felt he’d been neglecting Wooly Rupert, and so has tackled Wooly’s query: “A discussion in another thread has mentioned something from one of the Elminster's Ecologies books: the existence of dinosaurs in the Stonelands. To some of us, this seems to be an odd place to drop dinosaurs... And, now that I think about it, I'm not recalling any other references to dinosaurs being there. So, in your Realms, are there dinosaurs in the Stonelands? And either way, is there anything you could add about their official presence there?”
Ed replies:
The Sage is quite right to remind us of my Candle04Page38 reply: there once were many dinosaurs in the Realms, but the dragons flourished by dining on almost all of them, leaving only handfuls behind (usually in jungles or other “good cover from flying wyrms” terrain).
The Stonelands are just such terrain, with their knife-edged ridges, deep ravines, caverns and overhangs, and exposed horns and faces of stone. So, yes, there are a few dinosaurs lurking deep in the Stonelands. Almost all are ostrich-sized or smaller velociraptors (bird-like, darting and hopping predators, of the sort featured so prominently in JURASSIC PARK: see fleshraker and swindlesplitter under “Dinosaur” in the MM3), though there are a few deinonychus (MM). They hibernate in deep, “warmrock” rifts (near earth nodes and volcanic flows) and hunt in cover, never leaving the Stonelands or racing along heights of land (for fear of being devoured by dragons; the Zhent foulwings, dark horrors, and other aerial steeds remind the dim-witted dinosaurs of the “death from above” that they now instinctively fear).
So saith Ed, who will recall Torm trying to interest Jhessail in a skewer of dinosaur steaks that she said VERY rude things about. Even Rathan, with the aid of much wine, downed them only with difficulty, finding them “tough, and with a curious dead-mushrooms taste.”
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 02:50:40
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Is there an echo in here? 
Anyhow, its been a long while since I read that bit about the island - I remember wanting to do something with it, and then never got around to it (story of my life).
If I recall, the island is an ancient, dormant volcano, and the Caldera is actually located in Toril's past - by traveling in and out of those caves, you are really entering a different time period.
Which makes me wonder just what the hell is in the Caldera right now? 
Theoretically, if you flew in through the top, rather then use the caves, it may be possible to land in the 'now' version of the volcano and see what going on.
Or I could just be mis-remembering stuff again... like I said, its been awhile since I've gone through that particular tome (and my own initial ideas for the place may be getting mixed in here).
I like the idea that it may be the contributing factor to FR's current Saurian population - perhaps there are portals in other extinct volcanos? That would make a great deal of sense for Chult. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2009 02:53:12 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 03:24:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's the old quote from Ed about dinosaurs in the Stonelands:
Yes, I believe another scribe already posted that little piece of Ed-lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Mar 2009 03:28:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 06:17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's the old quote from Ed about dinosaurs in the Stonelands:
Yes, I believe another scribe already posted that little piece of Ed-lore.
I didn't notice it because it wasn't in a proper quote box. So it's all Sage's fault for not properly posting it!
... And that's the story I'm sticking with.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 12:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't notice it because it wasn't in a proper quote box. So it's all Sage's fault for not properly posting it!
... And that's the story I'm sticking with.
On topic: I would say as old as you want it to be. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 20 Mar 2009 12:49:51 |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 18:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's the old quote from Ed about dinosaurs in the Stonelands:
Yes, I believe another scribe already posted that little piece of Ed-lore.
I didn't notice it because it wasn't in a proper quote box. So it's all Sage's fault for not properly posting it!
... And that's the story I'm sticking with.
As soon as I read it's the Sage's fault, I immediately heard in my head Milli Vanilli singing "Blame it on the Sage"... should I be worried?  |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 18:56:52
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| If that caldera is in the past, then do spellcasters going there have to abide by the old rulesets that were in effect back then? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 19:06:30
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In 4e, thats for you to decide.
As for me... I might make it a malfunctioning portal, but thats a big 'might'.
If the portal was erected around the time period it leads to, perhaps by one of the Creator Races, then I would also say that they already may have used non-Weave or even pre-Weave magics to construct it.
Anyhow, you would have to decide for yourself how such things work. If your a 4e Spellcaster, the assumption is that you are now accessing Raw Magic (or whatever power-source your tapping), and you should have no problem in any time period.
If you were running 3e or even 2e, you can either say that Vancian Magic up to 12th level was allowed or, conversely, that the Weave of that time period was more primitive and allowances for magic over 9th had not been made yet (or whatever else you want to dream-up).
Its really a very open-ended plothook. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2009 19:07:53 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2009 : 23:18:38
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Or, alternatively, you could use a variant of the time-travel rules and how it affects magic, as presented in the "Arcane Age" boxed sets.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Mar 2009 23:23:08 |
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Topic |
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how old is toril
